The obligatory “puppy-tossing Marine expelled from Corps” post; Update: Administrative discharge?
posted at 1:51 pm on June 12, 2008 by Allahpundit
I guess the puppy was real after all.
The Marine Corps on Wednesday said it was expelling one Marine and disciplining another for their roles in a video showing a Marine throwing a puppy off a cliff while on patrol in Iraq…
Lance Cpl. David Motari, assigned to the 1st Battalion, 3rd Marine Regiment at Kaneohe Bay, is “being processed for separation” from the Marine Corps, the Marine Corps said in a news release. He also received unspecified “non-judicial punishment.”…
“The actions seen in the Internet video are contrary to the high standards we expect of every Marine and will not be tolerated,” Marine Corps Base Hawaii said in a news release. “The vast majority of Marines conduct their duties with honor and compassion that makes American people proud.”
Here’s the official release noting that the specifics of his NJP can’t be divulged. Question for Marines, Marine spouses, and anyone else capable of answering: On what grounds, precisely, was Motari “expelled”? Article 15 of the UCMJ doesn’t list expulsion or discharge as one of the available punishments for enlisted men. The worst sentence you can get, it appears, is “correctional custody” for 30 days. Did they just lean on him to quit (note that the official release says nothing about expulsion just that he’s being “processed for separation”) or is there something I’m missing? Furthermore, what’s the offense here? “Being a douchebag”? I’m guessing it falls under Article 134, but you tell me.
Update: A reader in the know e-mails:
I’m a former Marine Company Commander and have done many of these.
By the news stories, everything regarding the NJP seems correct. A Marine can be processed for administrative discharge for a variety of reasons (misconduct, pattern of misconduct, fraudulent enlistment, “good of the service”, humanitarian, etc). Marines discharged administratively are eligible for Honorable or General Discharges. General Discharges are characterized as either “General, Under Honorable Conditions” or “General, under Other than Honorable Conditions”. Each are determined by the totality of his service and the type of admin discharge received. A “Hums Sep” would most likely be an “Honorable” discharge. A “Misconduct” or “Pattern of Misconduct” would most likely receive an “OTH”.
Blowback
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LOL. Nicely done.
a capella on June 12, 2008 at 3:26 PM
so are you saying you don’t nueter or spay your animals?
upinak on June 12, 2008 at 3:27 PM
You’re right. And that one specific animal was the Marine, who used poor judgement, disgusting behavior and tarnished the reputation of his fellow Marines.
I ask you, who’s conduct reminded you more of an animal, the puppy or the Marine? Did the puppy pose a threat?
fogw on June 12, 2008 at 3:30 PM
I nueter and spay. Plus my cats are indoor pets.
dingbat on June 12, 2008 at 3:32 PM
Oh Please, tossing a sick dog that is suffering off a cliff to it’s death is not being sadist. Would it have been better to shoot the dog? I bet you’d be upset at knowing how many dogs are shot by US troops over there. I bet you’d be upset knowing how many dogs (and feral cats) are shot in the backwoods of the US. Morally, it would have been worse to leave the dog out there to suffer and die slowly.
Animals do not have the intrinsic rights/value that a human has, yet you try to place the two on moral equivalent grounds. Rather it is the opposite. Most pro-abortion people are outraged than pro-life.
I can’t help but wonder if you would extend your morality to it’s logical conclusion and refuse to torture animals such as fleas and termites in your house.
Tim Burton on June 12, 2008 at 3:33 PM
I agree that sadism is disturbing (and often a sign of a sociopath), and should that be the case a thorough investigation is in order. However, your comments are unnecessarily derogatory and your arguments are flawed.
1. A dog is not a person and does not share equal rights with a person. Nor does harming an animal rise to the level of harming a person. Comparing those that correctly recognize that harming a person is a greater moral crime than harming an animal is therefore a false comparison. More appeals to pathos no doubt banged out in the heat of the moment.
2. Sadism is defined as enjoyment at being cruel. Given the facts that you have (unless you personally have some special knowledge) you are incapable of knowing whether or not this was truly sadism or simply flippant humor combined with extremely poor judgment. Further, even in your example, a pregnant woman who gets an abortion usually has no special sense of enjoyment or gratification at her actions.
Poor form, insults, bad argumentation. Boy oh boy do I love how people act out on the Internet. :P
TheUnrepentantGeek on June 12, 2008 at 3:34 PM
Never has number of voices been the standard of truth. Look at you liberals. You think because there are lots of you that you are defacto correct. Dig your head out and start acting like a conservative.
This is not about an animal. It is about getting caught. There is no way a heroic marine who mans the wall you have never, nor will never man, is going to be discharged because of this minor incident. The USMC made public reaction to a public action.
Do you even have a clue what the ROE are over there? HUMANS are of little importance in many situations. Wemen, children, etc are all subject to immediate fire in the right circumstances. So much so that many of our troopers lose sleep over it initially.
Don’t make the mistake of equating the life of a HUMAN to the life of an ANIMAL. There is no comparison. EVER.
csdeven on June 12, 2008 at 3:34 PM
I still am surprised it was real. God this whole thing is so depressing, what a failure of a human being.
Typhonsentra on June 12, 2008 at 3:34 PM
That is part of the problem. We have become such a cushioned society, that we forget that in 90% of the world, life is cruel and hard. This guy wasn’t torturing the dog, just killing it. Seeing how the dog was suffering and would continue to suffer, it was the moral thing to do. Assuming it was still alive of course.
Tim Burton on June 12, 2008 at 3:36 PM
He admitted it was alive. He certainly should have known it and he only deserves what he got because he was too stupid to do it privately.
csdeven on June 12, 2008 at 3:36 PM
So you’re putting fleas, mice, snakes and termites on the same level of a dog? Would any one of those rodents or insects lay down their life for you? Just curious.
Geronimo on June 12, 2008 at 3:37 PM
Does your son kill dogs over there for kicks? Is that the bug up your ass about this?
Geronimo on June 12, 2008 at 3:38 PM
Did it look like he didn’t know he was being filmed?
csdeven on June 12, 2008 at 3:39 PM
I’m frickin’ speechless. Shooting it, snapping its neck, or any number of quick, painless methods would have been far more humane than throwing an animal off a cliff. If you don’t realize that, you have serious problems.
MadisonConservative on June 12, 2008 at 3:39 PM
I bet he will be a better human at the end of his life than most present day college grads.
Tim Burton on June 12, 2008 at 3:41 PM
Yeah, I’m not super attached to any animal myself, but people who refuse to place cats & dogs at a different level than other animals are ignoring about 10,000 years of human history.
But you gotta see that it’s not just stupidity. Clearly he thought this was funny, was a good thing, was very happy about it. You don’t think that speaks to his character at all? You just seem so positive that he’s an otherwise totally awesome guy, that it’s like you’re ignoring Esthier’s point.
apollyonbob on June 12, 2008 at 3:42 PM
OH, I see! You’re one of those crazies who think Lassie did all that stuff because she “loved” Tommy Rettig?
Good gravy!!! Where do you moonbats come from?
csdeven on June 12, 2008 at 3:43 PM
Do you even realize how you just undercut your own argument?
Jim Treacher on June 12, 2008 at 3:43 PM
Are you csdeven’s twin brother? When the hell in this thread did I assess EVERYTHING there is to know about the Marine’s character. I only assessed the particular abhorrant act he committed on a defenseless animal. Quit making shit up.
And I would never be foolish enough to have someone video-tape me in my worst possible moment. And may I add, my worst possible moment wouldn’t come anywhere close to executing a puppy, or a snake or a rat for that matter, just for kicks.
I do know of dogs who have saved human lives and make the lives of the blind more fulfilling. Rats and snakes, not so much.
You’re not a dog owner, are you?
fogw on June 12, 2008 at 3:43 PM
Throwing it off the cliff was probably just as quick as shooting it. Anything above 15 feet will kill a puppy.
In fact you are assuming that the puppy didn’t die on impact, so do you have any other proof he didn’t? So by your logic, would you feel better if he ran over the puppy so it died instantly? (I dare you to answer that one)
Tim Burton on June 12, 2008 at 3:44 PM
The pup was sick? How do you know that?
You must have seen more of the video than the rest of us. I didn’t know the dog was suffering a slow death.
Question for you. Do you like to torture insects?
a capella on June 12, 2008 at 3:44 PM
Where do crazed insulting people like you come from? I can only guess Oregon.
MadisonConservative on June 12, 2008 at 3:44 PM
Edit for clarity:
Tim Burton on June 12, 2008 at 3:45 PM
The fact that you can’t accept that the presumption that this was an isolated incident in an otherwise heroic sacrifice to this country sounds suspiciously like you have serious problems.
csdeven on June 12, 2008 at 3:45 PM
Yes. What’s the big dare about that? At least you would know it didn’t suffer further.
MadisonConservative on June 12, 2008 at 3:45 PM
Deeper meaning Jim. Deeper. Think about it. It’ll come to you.
csdeven on June 12, 2008 at 3:46 PM
The fact that you can’t see that videotaping the incident and putting it on the internet for all to see, thereby making lots of gullible people see it as an indictment of the armed forces, sounds suspiciously like you have a severe lack of perspective.
MadisonConservative on June 12, 2008 at 3:46 PM
I am not sure about most of you, but it isn’t how I feel about this either.
I knows that people such as this Marine are real. They are all over. This guy was just dumb enough to get caught… even if what he did was wrong.
But with that said, I don’t want someone such as this, with me anywhere. People who act the way that Marine has, are a problem and you can’t change them. What you see may have been the tip of the ice burg.
People such as that are more likely to get people killed. I don’t need or want that.
upinak on June 12, 2008 at 3:47 PM
Woman, you are unhinged and too worked up to even be talked to. I’m done with you.
Geronimo on June 12, 2008 at 3:48 PM
So that’s a no.
Jim Treacher on June 12, 2008 at 3:48 PM
Was he a failure when he voluntarily signed up to put his life on the line for people who could care less about him?
csdeven on June 12, 2008 at 3:49 PM
If he did it to get his rocks off on murdering people, yes.
And I’ve got some awesome proof that that’s the case. Where’s your contrary evidence?
apollyonbob on June 12, 2008 at 3:52 PM
News flash: Not every single member of the armed forces is a good person. Markos Moulitsas was one.
MadisonConservative on June 12, 2008 at 3:53 PM
He stated that much. Let’s play we didn’t know that. That society sees dogs as unclean. They don’t feed them or make them into pets. So this dog has zero ability to become a pet, rather it will be a stray at best and killed by larger dogs at worse.
Either way, we kill dogs here in the US for much less. Don’t believe me, go to the pound sometime.
No, but I actually spent a little time to read his comments:
Read his comments
Absolutely, I like to drop bug bombs that kill them, usually insecticide is not instantaneous. I refuse to pick them up and take them outside. I expect you’ll keep your “high moral standards” and refuse to kill bugs. Just take them outside next time.
Tim Burton on June 12, 2008 at 3:55 PM
“Simply flippant humor” says it all. I’ll consider that a self-indictment on your part. Tell me, have you had such bouts of “humor” in your life? “Simply flippant humor” that is … concerning a dog? My reference to abortion didn’t have a damn thing to do with the woman who gets the abortion. It had to do with the operative word of “sadism,” and the abortionist who slaughters a baby in the womb.
As for my “form” of argumentation … once again … my argument was about “sadism” – not “simply flippant humor” in the form of “throwing a puppy off of a cliff.”
Once again, sadism is sadism. The only difference is how it is acted out.
OhEssYouCowboys on June 12, 2008 at 3:55 PM
I’m ignoring the parts of Esthier’s points that make no sense. She cannot presume that he is NOT a decent person otherwise. WHY? Because his service to HUMAN BEINGS says more about him than this one moment of weakness in his life. ESPECIALLY in a place where the horrors of war are part of daily life.
The only people who can speak to what THEY would do in that situation are those who have been there. Anyone else would be talking out their butt.
csdeven on June 12, 2008 at 3:55 PM
Unfortunately, there are some real buttholes in the military. I’m not making any excuses for this idiot. 90% of the soldiers I know personally (I’m an Army wife) are excellent people of character, but the military isn’t a political party or religion. As long as the military advertises to the MTV generation pimping things other than patriotism, this sort of thing will continue to happen. And worse.
Who do we think is responsible for the scandal at Abu Ghraib? Rebellious MTV type soldiers who crap on the tenets of Army rules.
Amy Proctor on June 12, 2008 at 3:55 PM
I’m just awesome, sorry.
I’m with you on a couple points, but we don’t know if he was doing his job. You’re assuming that based on the fact that he volunteered to serve, but that’s not information we have.
All we have to judge him on is what you’re terming a “single moment of weakness” and the fact that he enlisted. That’s it.
From that we only know that he once did an honorable thing and once did a horrible thing. The horrible thing will reflect badly on everyone serving over there, while the honorable thing will only make him look better.
Sure, he should get some credit for having enlisted. It’s a tough job that many can’t or wouldn’t even want to do. Those who volunteer for it should be given some praise just for that alone; however, that only goes so far.
I’m not going to say the man is an abomination because of his actions here, but he certainly should be ashamed of himself first and foremost because he was representing the United States Marine while filming that, and even if no one but he had witnessed his actions, he should still be ashamed for doing something that does not live up to the responsibilities given a Marine.
He volunteered to be a Marine, and clearly, even if just in one moment of weakness, he couldn’t live up the responsibilities that title contains.
Esthier on June 12, 2008 at 3:56 PM
Tim Burton on June 12, 2008 at 3:57 PM
Provide the proof.
csdeven on June 12, 2008 at 3:57 PM
And that DC sniper. And Beauchamp. And others.
What you don’t get CS is that to act as though THIS GUY is a hero is pretty damn insulting to guys like Marcus Luttrel, Jack Lucas, and all these people:
http://www.cmohs.org/recipients.htm
These are the HEROS. To act as though because of their memory this puppy tosser should get a pass is horrible.
apollyonbob on June 12, 2008 at 3:58 PM
No one here knows. Could have been. Are you saying the guys who raped the 14 year old Iraqi girl and killed her family were heros when they signed up, and just got a bit off the tracks in a single weak moment after they were in for awhile? They also “voluntarily signed up to put their lives on the line for people who could care less about them.”
a capella on June 12, 2008 at 3:58 PM
It’s at the top of the page. Click the play button on the video.
apollyonbob on June 12, 2008 at 3:58 PM
I tried that argument, he’ll rant about how dogs and human beings are the same thing, irrespective of your actual argument.
apollyonbob on June 12, 2008 at 3:59 PM
apollyonbob on June 12, 2008 at 3:59 PM
apollyonbob on June 12, 2008 at 4:00 PM
It amazes me that you and others don’t realize that these animals over there are not pets. They are looked at as pests on the level of rats. It doesn’t reflect poorly over there. They don’t see them as having any value.
Tim Burton on June 12, 2008 at 4:01 PM
I understand your point. But I still believe you are being naive. Have you ever been in a shooting war? Have you ever considered signing up KNOWING you would be in a theater where 100 Americans a month were dying?
Until you have, you cannot apply your standards to him. He put it on the line to protect humans and that says more than throwing an animal off a cliff.
csdeven on June 12, 2008 at 4:01 PM
You know what I see going on in this thread reminds me that I think that those of you that like to canonize those in service are just as bad as those like John “Stuk in Irak” Kerry that take every opportunity to demean us.
This guy made the Marines look bad. This guy, by having people (fellow Marines, by the way) videotape him slinging a defenseless animal of off a cliff, made himself a public face of the USMC. The Marines made the right decision in booting this guy out. He had no place in the Marine Corps.
If I caught one of my soldiers throwing a dog off a cliff the best part of the video would be afterwards when I beat the holy hell out of that soldier.
Look at the Code of Conduct and ask yourself if this is the kind of guy that would follow it. He made not just the Marine Corps look bad, he made everyone fighting to secure a better future for Iraq look bad. We don’t need “men” like him.
JasonG on June 12, 2008 at 4:03 PM
TWO THOUGHTS:
If the animal tossed was ugly, would any body care?
What does it say about the government or the bureaucracy that it took so long to determine FAKE/REAL?
cat-scratch on June 12, 2008 at 4:03 PM
Morality. It’s hard to define ones decency based on a single incident. I’d have to sit down and talk with that young man to make any sort of judgement, and who am I to judge?
They eat dog in some parts of Asia, They consider dogs unclean in the mid-east. In this country bitches are kept in cages their whole lives to make pets for dumb-ass Americans.
Many of you shouldn’t throw stone. I’m thinking the guy was just an airhead kid. Maybe he’s learned something.
Look, You’ve got QB Vick killing dogs, slow grayhounds killed every day; I remember as a kid, a friend of my dads shooting a birddog because it wouldn’t hunt. By the way, do you bright bulbs know that dog fighting is legal in American Samoa?
I love dogs and have had many. One in particular comes to mind. But I know the real world.
dingbat on June 12, 2008 at 4:04 PM
There is no proof in your link that he got his rocks off murdering people.
Clue for you…..Dogs aren’t people.
csdeven on June 12, 2008 at 4:05 PM
that’s why I TrapNeuterRelease local feral cats, and to some extent dogs and find homes for those we can… personally from my own neighborhood I have about 50 cats and 7 dogs under my belt.
yes I would… and if he didn’t have the balls to do it, maybe he could ask a real man to do it for him. because that’s what makes a true man… “conviction” to make the judgement that animal is better off dead, and then to look him in the eyes and take his life. we have a symbiotic relationship with animals, they deserve our respect even if we do eat them. we are all part of the cycle.
-
that’s why I defend the rights of hunters, and disagree with snares, deer suckers, cookie barrels and decoys… if you’re going to hunt at least do it like a man.
Kaptain Amerika on June 12, 2008 at 4:07 PM
I don’t equate humans to animals. But some people here are when they make the argument you just made.
csdeven on June 12, 2008 at 4:08 PM
Exactly my thought.
apollyonbob on June 12, 2008 at 4:09 PM
That Marine should have known better. He was a professional soldier. A Marine.
He brought discredit to himself, his family, the Marine Corps, his god and his country.
Being a Marine is an honor and a privilege, not a right.
He lost that privilege when he dishonored himself and the Corps. The Corps is doing the right thing by taking away the privilege that he took for granted.
Et tu Brute on June 12, 2008 at 4:10 PM
I think I’m starting to get the argument:
A. David Motari enlisted in the Marines.
B. Therefore, David Motari is a hero.
C. How dare you question the actions of a hero?
Sounds good. Go light your bongs with the Uniform Code of Military Justice, you dumb hippies!
Jim Treacher on June 12, 2008 at 4:10 PM
They think dogs, animals in general, think and feel like they do. Thus they show their unappreciative attitude towards mankind.
csdeven on June 12, 2008 at 4:11 PM
Et Tu Brute?
and I mean the Latin, you to brute agree with me? and it’s rhetorical because obviously you do… I just couldn’t resist the irony…
Kaptain Amerika on June 12, 2008 at 4:12 PM
Hell, dogs treat EACH OTHER worse than that Marine treated that dog.
I guess these whack jobs need to start policing wolf dens etc so there can never be any cruelty going on.
Good gravy!
csdeven on June 12, 2008 at 4:12 PM
csdeven, before I start let me say that its good to have you back here man. I believe you have a son or two overseas right now. How are they/he? Hope all is well.
Now I’m probably a bit late to this conversation but if its not too late for me to butt in I think you may be assuming a few facts that are not yet in evidence. First, you assume this Marine has performed heroic acts in the past. We are talking about a US Marine here so you are probably on firm ground with that assumption but still, there is no way for us to be sure about that. The only real evidence we have of this man’s character is the short video clip of him murdering a puppy. Hardly something one wants to talk about during a job interview. Why? Because in most cases it represents bad character. Its not something a hero would typically do. Also, you refer to this puppy killing act several times as “a moment of weakness”. I’m not so sure that it is though because when I have a moment of weakness I eat a little too much ice cream or I drink a few more beers then I originally intended to. I don’t see a puppy walking down the street and slam it up against a brick wall and then go “aw shucks. Sorry. Just had a brief moment of weakness”. Perhaps a better description would be a moment of evil. I’m sympathetic to your argument, though, because I too want to give these brave men and women the benefit of the doubt. For that reason I’m cautiously stepping out on a limb when I conclude that I think there is some serious underlying anger pent up in this young marine and its best to get him out of the battlefield now rather than wait for this anger to rear its head again only this time in an even more damaging form. Send the Marine home and let him start fresh. Let this whole instance sink down into the national memory hole and dissapear forever.
Zetterson on June 12, 2008 at 4:13 PM
Psychologists disagree with you, but I imagine you just think they’re liberals and that they are just trying to push some kind of PETA agenda, yeah?
Also:
Called it!
Yeah I’m getting that sense too.
apollyonbob on June 12, 2008 at 4:14 PM
Hello? Wake up!
DOGS ARE NOT PEOPLE! Stop comparing the two.
csdeven on June 12, 2008 at 4:14 PM
Welcome to the party, pal! XD hahahahhaahah
apollyonbob on June 12, 2008 at 4:14 PM
Okay. I give up! You’ve stumped me.
Are you accidentally ignoring my argument, or are you willfully doing so? You’ve actually fooled me on this one.
apollyonbob on June 12, 2008 at 4:16 PM
Stop and breath a sec.
Now question. Would you work with someone who has abused something…. it doesn’t matter what it was. Would you work with them?
upinak on June 12, 2008 at 4:17 PM
Right, because we show compassion. That jerk showed none. In that clip, he became indistinguishable from a dog.
MadisonConservative on June 12, 2008 at 4:20 PM
we are animals and animals do think and feel… go beat your dog and see what happens… oh I’m sure you already have. if it hasn’t to your requirements already… one day science will prove that animals think and feel. from what I know of them they do… I mean I have spoken to a Gorilla with sign language and she has answered me, and asked me questions… http://www.koko.org/world/signlanguage.html
Kaptain Amerika on June 12, 2008 at 4:21 PM
I don’t really care how people over there see it, and they’re certainly not the people I was talking about.
I’m talking about people over here, people who don’t understand why we spend so much on the military. Wars and militaries rely on public support.
The absolute moral authority card? If that’s the case, then why not listen to those who have been there?
Why did you specify a shooting war, just to exclude all the sword-fighting I’ve done?
To answer your question: no. Then again, I’m a little sexist on the issue. I think very few of us are cut out for the job.
Me, I used to pass out during marching band practice because of the heat.
So, I guess that means I’m not allowed to have an opinion on the activities of our soldiers during wartime even though the Marine Corps agree with me.
Actually, again, you don’t know why he signed up. He might just love killing people and decided this was the best way to do it legally since the bodies were piling up under his basement.
His action in signing up is completely honorable. His intentions might not be. We just don’t have that information.
Besides, my point still stands. Marines are held to a high standard. If he can’t meet that standard, then he shouldn’t be one.
Esthier on June 12, 2008 at 4:23 PM
You are awesome XD hahah
apollyonbob on June 12, 2008 at 4:25 PM
Understandable. I too, find it hard to resist.
In any case, we are thinking along the same lines. He embarrassed the Corps, and THAT is why he is currently doing the sea-bag drag.
As a former jarhead, I remember well how much we were reminded, everywhere we went, not to do something stupid that would bring shame on the Corps and your uniform.
He did something very stupid. He’s lucky he didn’t get put in a hurt locker.
Et tu Brute on June 12, 2008 at 4:25 PM
There are doing absolutely wonderful. Thanks for the kind concern.
Correct.
True.
Agreed.
How many times have we been surprised by our heroes?
True. Lots of us don’t. I have owned and loved dogs my entire life and would like to believe that regardless of the situation, I would never do that. But until I’m in that situation, I REALLY don’t know.
OK.
That may be true. But being privy to the conditions over there, short of atrocious acts towards human beings (like war isn’t rife with atrocious acts? This is a very strange discussion) I will err on the side of the guy who signed up for this with full knowledge of the consequences.
I am uncomfortable when some of these people putting humans and animals on the same plane of value. It cheapens human life.
csdeven on June 12, 2008 at 4:26 PM
And you should never assume. You are correct.
you rock!
upinak on June 12, 2008 at 4:29 PM
Remember, you troop-hating liberals: If you show any concern over cruelty to a defenseless animal, you’re cheapening human life.
Jim Treacher on June 12, 2008 at 4:32 PM
Jim, I think I am missing your point.
upinak on June 12, 2008 at 4:34 PM
I’ve always thought that people were better than dogs and that Marines were better than people. This man, at least in that moment, wasn’t.
Here’s another soldier’s opinion, since mine doesn’t matter:
Esthier on June 12, 2008 at 4:36 PM
I didn’t say they did not think and feel. I said they don’t think and feel like humans do.
csdeven on June 12, 2008 at 4:37 PM
Here ya go.
Jim Treacher on June 12, 2008 at 4:38 PM
So you are in command of soldiers? Where?
csdeven on June 12, 2008 at 4:40 PM
I hope by my having made the comment I made earlier that I am not precluding anyone’s right to express an opinion because he/she might not have seen combat. That was not my intent. My only point was that even were one in a combat situation as I was, the decision to capriciously injure an animal would have been rare. Incidentally, had I killed a water buffalo over there, it would have cost me a few hundred dollars. Of course, in a fire fight the water boo loses… but this dog thing is entirely different. Those who state that the wearing of the uniform of a Marine imputes a higher degree of ethos and honor are correct. This Marine, again in MY opinion, failed that test. Oh, and I was one who originally gave the gent every benefit of the doubt, so I was wrong, too.
MNDavenotPC on June 12, 2008 at 4:40 PM
yeah that comment went over my head. Thanks!
upinak on June 12, 2008 at 4:41 PM
Satire has to have a basis in fact first. You don’t have that. You are picking easy fruit. When did you get so lazy?
csdeven on June 12, 2008 at 4:42 PM
Why don’t you answer my question! You seem to be skating around!
upinak on June 12, 2008 at 4:43 PM
You probably think the puppy had a fun ride on the way down.
FloatingRock on June 12, 2008 at 4:43 PM
Just an aside, can you compare and contrast the feelings of animals v humans?
For instance, when an animal feels sad, how does that compare to a person feeling sad? What are the common factors and what makes the two different?
Et tu Brute on June 12, 2008 at 4:44 PM
That’s certainly not how I took it, but if my opinion isn’t good enough due to my lack of experience, I don’t mind letting yours speak for me.
I love you posts. I wish you could be hired here just to post comments here.
Thanks.
Esthier on June 12, 2008 at 4:44 PM
I don’t think I heard anyone here today put humans and animals on the same plane of value. Because we are offended by the mistreatment of an animal, doesn’t mean we consider them our equals. It does mean we have compassion for both man and animal, that’s all.
That being said, I would like to point out that I like my dog more than most people I meet.
csdeven, I too have a son who has served two tours in the Middle East. A Navy Seal for the past eight years. He has been trained how to kill the enemy eight different ways from Sunday. Don’t know where he has or how many, and I don’t have a need to know. What I do know is, his character would never let him harm a defenseless puppy, and he would never besmirch his fellow seals with such a cowardice act.
I am all for our troops …. the one’s who make us proud.
fogw on June 12, 2008 at 4:44 PM
You must have seen more of the video than the rest of us. I didn’t know the dog was suffering a slow death.
Question for you. Do you like to torture insects?
a capella on June 12, 2008 at 3:44 PM
Well, I read his comments about the pup being sick and they don’t mean much. Full disclosure here- I’m a veterinarian with 17 years of clinical practice experience and another 17 in clinical research. As such, I’ve euthanized or been responsible for oversight of same on tens of thousands of dogs, so one dog’s death isn’t an earthshaking event for me. Making it an entertaining event by prolonging and intensifying the terror is something else entirely. You are ignoring the perversion of what may be a very rational military policy on dealing with stray dogs. Anyone who “gets creative” during any euthanasia procedure, as the Marine stated he did, enjoys the death dealing much more than is healthy. I was on the board of directors of our local Humane Society for many years, and we had trouble with burn out on people doing the euthanasias,..normal people can usually can only do it for so long without it affecting them emotionally. If anyone enjoys it, there is something wrong.
a capella on June 12, 2008 at 4:44 PM
So you admit that the things you’ve been saying are not factual. Well, it’s a start.
Jim Treacher on June 12, 2008 at 4:48 PM
I’ve seen pictures of Marines with Japanese skulls displayed on the hoods of their jeeps. My dad was there and he says “so what, In war, s**t happens.”
Rough men standing on the ramparts. That’s what I want.
dingbat on June 12, 2008 at 4:52 PM
They shouldn’t be even close to the same level, in most cases, depending, of course, upon the particular human being we are comparing the puppy to. For instance, if that Marine threw Bin Laden down the cliff it would rightfully be celebrated worldwide. I would be willing to bet everybody arguing on this thread would be in full agreement for once that its party time. New national holiday perhaps. But that puppy would, in my opinion, have far more of a right to its next breath than Osama. Even though Osama is, by most measures, human.
Zetterson on June 12, 2008 at 4:52 PM
…flinging off puppies.
Jim Treacher on June 12, 2008 at 4:53 PM
That was the point I was making. Those that have been there know what THEY would do and have some credibility in judging this Marine. But they still cannot speak to everyone who fought. They guy who kills a dog puts as much on the line as the guy who doesn’t.
haha
I am not touching that one. ;-)
Let me try to be more precise with the comment you are referring to. I’m saying that no one can REALLY say how they would react until they are faced with the truth of war. You can imagine the brutality, but not how it would affect you personally.
We have no proof that he wants to murder people. And because a vast majority of Marines are honorable, he gets the presumptive pass that this was an isolated incident. If he had not been doing his job, he would not be going out on patrols.
But presuming he is a potential mass murderer is a despicable thing to say about him. Those folks are the ones who are deserving of chastisement. Again, presumption should be given on the side of the evidence we have.
That’s Pollyanna and this is where we disagree again. Lots of folks don’t meet the standard we set for them. That doesn’t negate their sacrifice.
csdeven on June 12, 2008 at 4:54 PM
I don’t see why Motari should be able to avoid having his account, and the investigations finding, of events related to the video laid open to the world.
It smacks of the military not only giving this man undeserved concealment of his craptacular actions, but covering itself from disgrace.
This didn’t occur out of the public eye, and there is still speculation and back and forth of what he did. Any leniency in punishment should have required him to publicly explain and apologise, or a more serious punishment taking away secrecy around his acts should have been inflicted on him.
SarahW on June 12, 2008 at 4:56 PM
Well, bring it on. All I’ve seen from you are exercises in smart assery. And not very good smart assery at that.
csdeven on June 12, 2008 at 4:56 PM
Never has number of voices been the standard of truth. Look at you liberals. You think because there are lots of you that you are defacto correct. Dig your head out and start acting like a conservative.
OK, I’m amazed to be the one having to ask you this but: is English your second language? Can you try and read the passage you’re quoting?
freevillage on June 12, 2008 at 4:57 PM
OK, html in the previous message is screwed up or isn’t supported by the board.
csdeven, you responded to this paragraph
with this
My reaction is: OK, I’m amazed to be the one having to ask you this but: is English your second language? Can you try and read the passage you’re quoting?
freevillage on June 12, 2008 at 4:58 PM
How so? My point was that the guys who committed the atrocity on the Iraqi girl and her family obviously weren’t tracking too straight and may not have been when they signed up. It had nothing to do with the relative value of human vs animal life, but rather the fact that wearing the uniform shouldn’t be allowed to excuse cruelty as a simple mistake or weak moment.
a capella on June 12, 2008 at 4:59 PM
That one made soda squirt out of my nose.
Looks like a scene out of Monty Python or something.
Et tu Brute on June 12, 2008 at 4:59 PM
True. And I’d be one of them.
I just don’t happen to think his life should be ruined and celebrated over an animal. That dog, at it’s greatest worth to society, would never to one tenth of one percent as valuable to society as that Marine was in one firefight in Iraq.
csdeven on June 12, 2008 at 4:59 PM
What are you gonna do, bleed on me?
Jim Treacher on June 12, 2008 at 5:00 PM
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