Breaking: Supreme Court says Gitmo detainees must have access to US courts Update: Scalia: “The Nation will live to regret what the Court has done today.”

posted at 10:45 am on June 12, 2008 by Ed Morrissey

In a 5-4 decision, the Supreme Court ruled today that the unlawful combatants held at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba must have access to American courts to challenge their detention. The ruling eliminates three attempts by the Bush administration and Congress to establish military tribunals that would handle the adjudication of terrorist cases without involving access to the civilian justice system:

The Supreme Court ruled Thursday that foreign terrorism suspects held at Guantanamo Bay have rights under the Constitution to challenge their detention in U.S. civilian courts.

The justices handed the Bush administration its third setback at the high court since 2004 over its treatment of prisoners who are being held indefinitely and without charges at the U.S. naval base in Cuba. The vote was 5-4, with the court’s liberal justices in the majority.

Justice Anthony Kennedy, writing for the court, said, “The laws and Constitution are designed to survive, and remain in force, in extraordinary times.” …

In dissent, Chief Justice John Roberts criticized his colleagues for striking down what he called “the most generous set of procedural protections ever afforded aliens detained by this country as enemy combatants.”

Justices Samuel Alito, Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas also dissented.

This will probably derail the hearings that had just begun at Gitmo for six members of the 9/11 conspiracy. By granting the unlawful combatants habeas corpus, the court has now eliminated the main reason for the military tribunal system — and for that matter, Gitmo itself. If the detainees can access American courts, they may as well be held on American soil.

The previous two rulings that struck down the tribunals forced the government to quickly pass laws that allowed for them. The Supreme Court has basically ruled that the Constitution applies worldwide rather than just to the US and its residents, which makes it pretty difficult to go back to the well a third time. Also, with very little time remaining in the Bush administration, they will not have enough time to push through a third attempt to address the Court’s concerns — and this ruling appears to be much broader than the two that preceded this one.

It seems absurd to apply criminal law to unlawful combatants captured during hostilities abroad. Will they require a Miranda reading, too? Do we have to bring the soldiers and Marines who captured them to the trial? In our 232-year history, when have we ever allowed that kind of access to enemy combatants not captured inside the US itself?

Update: Bear in mind that we do not yet have the full opinion, and it may be less egregious than what we have heard thus far. However, the quote from Kennedy certainly suggests an expansive ruling.

Squid Shark says in the comments that the work-around would be to classify them as POWs and be done with it. That presents a few problems, too. It eliminates the status of unlawful combatant, which then encourages all forces to eschew uniforms, legitimate state backing, etc etc. The unlawful-combatant designation and its circumscribed rights in Geneva intended to penalize those who hide among civilians for their attacks. Are we now to forego that?

Update II: The opinion can be read here. From a cursory reading, the Court says that Congress cannot act to suspend habeas corpus except through the Suspension Clause, which requires an explicit act noting invasion or rebellion. Would infiltration suffice, or does Congress even need that much reason to invoke the Suspension Clause?

Scalia’s dissent is especially scathing:

Today the Court warps our Constitution in a way that goes beyond the narrow issue of the reach of the Suspension Clause, invoking judicially brainstormed separation-of-powers principles to establish a manipulable “functional” test for the extraterritorial reach of habeas corpus (and, no doubt, for the extraterritorial reach of other Constitutional protections as well). It blatantly misdescribes [sic] important precedents, most conspicuously Justice Jackson’s opinion for the Court in Johnson v. Eisentrager. It breaks a chain of precedent as old as the common law that prohibits judicial inquiry into detentions of aliens abroad absent statutory authorization. And, most tragically, it sets our military commanders the impossible task of proving to a civilian court, under whatever standards this Court devises in the future, that evidence supports the confinement of each and every enemy prisoner.

The Nation will live to regret what the Court has done today. I dissent.

Update III: I’ve read through both dissents, and I have to say that I’m struck by the tone of Scalia and Roberts.  Not only do they dissent, they practically accuse the majority of deliberately misreading both law and precedent, especially regarding Eisentrager.  They point out that the dissent in that case explicitly noted that the decision gave aliens in detention by American forces outside of our own sovereign territory no habeas rights at all, and yet the majority used it to apply those rights in this case.  Roberts scornfully argues that the Court “cashiered” the military tribunal system before it had a chance to show that it addressed detainee rights properly.

I’d say that the end of this session couldn’t come quickly enough for these justices.

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Screw you Kennedy! This is a traitorous decision!

Anyone else started with the wailing and gnashing of teeth yet or is it just me?

NTWR on June 12, 2008 at 1:37 PM

flenser on June 12, 2008 at 1:36 PM

I’ll never embrace folks who hide in their houses while their neighbors scream.

Limerick on June 12, 2008 at 1:38 PM

Can I call them, or what?
flenser on June 12, 2008 at 1:32 PM

no, you can’t.

On the Guantanamo ruling, McCain said he hasn’t read the opinion yet, but said the ruling “obviously concerns me.” “We should pay attention to Justice Roberts,” McCain said, adding, “It is a decision the Supreme Court has made and now we need to move forward.”

What Robert’s said:

In dissent, Chief Justice John Roberts criticized his colleagues for striking down what he called “the most generous set of procedural protections ever afforded aliens detained by this country as enemy combatants.”

Robert’s dissented. He criticized his colleagues, and he did not vote with them.

“and now we need to move forward.”

In other words, the Supreme Court makes rulings. That is how the government is set up to function. A presidential candidate can not override the supreme court, and us as Americans need to follow the law, and when the courts make a ruling, you have to abide by the law, even when it is wrong.

“and now we need to move forward.” =/= McCain agreeing with the supreme court.

You did not call it.

You are wrong.

You are a liar.

wise_man on June 12, 2008 at 1:39 PM

How can the SCOTUS have jurisdiction over the military, when it technically falls under the Executive Branch? Is it possible a Presidential Order could clear some of this up?

Mark Levin’s show will be great today; unfortunately, I’ll be listening to boring speakers at my step-daughter’s graduation. =(

linlithgow on June 12, 2008 at 1:41 PM

Because they need to be charged with something, then executed, further imprisoned, or set free.

Why?

The whole reason they are in GTMO is to keep them out of the court of world opinion.

Are you quite sure you’e not a liberal? They are in Gitmo for several reasons, but the “court of world opinion” has nothing to do with it.

They are in Gitmo to get information from them. They are in Gitmo to keep them “on ice” and prevent them from killing people. They are in Gitmo to try to prevent the nitwits on the SCOTUS from doing exactly the sort of nonsense they have just done, and extending American civil rights to them. Those are the reasons they are in Gitmo, and its dowright scary that you don’t know them.

flenser on June 12, 2008 at 1:42 PM

I’ll never embrace folks who hide in their houses while their neighbors scream.

Limerick on June 12, 2008 at 1:38 PM

You are quite the warrior for the cause. Big deal, you are blindly voting for whoever the party tells you. What is so noble about that? Not voting for McCain is not the same as not voting. Why won’t you guys understand that?

ClassicCon on June 12, 2008 at 1:44 PM

You can make any claim you want. I’ll wait for Michelle Malkin to make a comment on this page and tell all of us that she is in complete agreement with Zetterson in regards to McCain.

I have read many of her postings and comments. She has stated in the past that she intends to vote for McCain and wear nose plugs.

I have not heard any followup that she is going to abstain from voting. Or write in another candidate.

So, maybe you could state to us your complete position on McCain, including at least 12 bullet points that back up your claims.. and then get the boss here to tell me that she is in complete agreement with you.

Please.

I am looking forward to this.

wise_man on June 12, 2008 at 1:28 PM

You can run through my comments and take a look if you want but in summary its this:
Fact – Both MM and I hate McCain for all the same reasons.
Fact – If I lived in a purple state I’d vote for McCain in order to prevent Obama from winning.

I don’t live in a purple state though so my vote doesn’t matter. I’m not voting for McCain. I can vote principle without negative consequence. What reason would I have to abandon principle?

MM may have said she planned on holding her nose and pulling the lever for McCamnesty. I don’t know. I never heard her say that but perhaps she has. But that is still my position IF I happened to live in a swing state. Therefore we are very much on the same page.

Zetterson on June 12, 2008 at 1:45 PM

You did not call it.

You are wrong.

You are a liar.

wise_man

Like most liberals, you have both the manners and the intellect of a weasel.

I predicted that McCain would try to have it both ways, that he could not attack the conservatives on the Court but that he would not say that the liberal majority was wrong. And that is exactly what he did, weasel man.

flenser on June 12, 2008 at 1:46 PM

Mark Levin’s show will be great today; unfortunately, I’ll be listening to boring speakers at my step-daughter’s graduation. =(

linlithgow on June 12, 2008 at 1:41 PM

You can listen to it at http://www.MarkLevinShow.com when you get home.

FloatingRock on June 12, 2008 at 1:46 PM

flenser on June 12, 2008 at 1:46 PM

Again, more lies.

wise_man on June 12, 2008 at 1:47 PM

ClassicCon on June 12, 2008 at 1:44 PM

Not a warrior. I just don’t choose to associate myself with isolationist morons.

Limerick on June 12, 2008 at 1:47 PM

McCain wanted to close Gitmo and move the prisoners here where they would be conferred constitutional rights, so any disagreement he might have with this ruling today must be a matter of nuance rather than an issue of principle.

FloatingRock on June 12, 2008 at 1:48 PM

How can the SCOTUS have jurisdiction over the military, when it technically falls under the Executive Branch? Is it possible a Presidential Order could clear some of this up?

The military is required to defend the constitution, the Supreme Court has ruled on the Constitution WRT this case, we are bound as officers to uphold that.
So is the president.

Squid Shark on June 12, 2008 at 1:48 PM

I’ll never embrace folks who hide in their houses while their neighbors scream.

Limerick on June 12, 2008 at 1:38 PM

WTF does that mean? Even by the incoherent standards of RINO’s, that makes no sense whatsoever.

flenser on June 12, 2008 at 1:48 PM

“and now we need to move forward.” = don’t ask me any further questions about this because I would have to pander to those conservatives I despise so much.

ClassicCon on June 12, 2008 at 1:48 PM

b4lucy on June 12, 2008 at 1:27 PM

Your dad faced an external threat to his country’s survival and his children’s survival. So he went and fought.

So do you. Do what your Dad taught you, the best you can. Dad said he’d take care of you while he was alive. Now it’s our turn.

Good luck to us Lucy. It’s a very good thing we’re fighting for, and well worth sacrificing for.

JiangxiDad on June 12, 2008 at 1:49 PM

McCain wanted to close Gitmo and move the prisoners here where they would be conferred constitutional rights, so any disagreement he might have with this ruling today must be a matter of nuance rather than an issue of principle.

FloatingRock on June 12, 2008 at 1:48 PM

Lie removed.

Squid Shark on June 12, 2008 at 1:49 PM

Not a warrior. I just don’t choose to associate myself with isolationist morons

Is that the party line now? Don’t vote for Obama you are a racist. Don’t vote for McCain you are isolationist moron.

Interesting.

ClassicCon on June 12, 2008 at 1:50 PM

“and now we need to move forward.” = don’t ask me any further questions about this because I would have to pander to those conservatives I despise so much. let me read the ruling first and discuss it with my legal advisors (Ted Olson maybe?)
ClassicCon on June 12, 2008 at 1:48 PM

Squid Shark on June 12, 2008 at 1:50 PM

So is the president.

Squid Shark on June 12, 2008 at 1:48 PM

Pres. has to protect and defend.

JiangxiDad on June 12, 2008 at 1:50 PM

The military is required to defend the constitution, the Supreme Court has ruled on the Constitution WRT this case, we are bound as officers to uphold that.
So is the president.

Squid Shark

No, you left wing clown, the Constitution does not mean whatever the nine nitwits say it means.

Why do you imagine that you are even a Republican, let alone a conservative? You consistently repeat talking points cribbed from the ACLU.

flenser on June 12, 2008 at 1:51 PM

Pres. has to protect and defend the Constitution.

Fixed

Squid Shark on June 12, 2008 at 1:51 PM

Why won’t you guys understand that?

ClassicCon on June 12, 2008 at 1:44 PM

Because they want you to vote for somebody who doesn’t have many points in his favor but plenty in his disfavor so they have to resort to name calling and insults.

FloatingRock on June 12, 2008 at 1:52 PM

McCain wanted to close Gitmo and move the prisoners here where they would be conferred constitutional rights, so any disagreement he might have with this ruling today must be a matter of nuance rather than an issue of principle.

FloatingRock on June 12, 2008 at 1:48 PM

That was my impression as well.

His reaction to this ruling will be very telling.

Zetterson on June 12, 2008 at 1:53 PM

highhopes on June 12, 2008 at 1:34 PM

I understand what you are saying. I supported McCain in 2000, and since then he has really dissapointed me. The things he has said about being racist are almost unforgivable.

But Bush has also let me down. Government spending? Way up. In retrospect even Reagan let us down. (illegal immigration, supreme court appointments, iran weapons, leaving Beirut)

But lets leave it up to the liberals to vote for a Messiah. As a conservative I expect to be let down. I know there will be no politician who can save us.They will all let us down if we are honest. But we vote for those who we think will make the right decisions on the important issues of the day. Today I think there are three:

1. Islamic Terrorism
2. Enviromentalism as a relegion
3. Illegal immigration

On two of these McCain is wrong. That is why the right is fighting so much. All of these issues are pretty close in importance. Under Reagan winning the cold war was by far the number 1.

Its more difficult today. But it’s important to live to fight another day sometimes.

Obama is dead wrong on all three of these issues. I question his love of this country based on his associates. His followers believe him no matter what. And if he becomes President he will be the hardest to fight in our history. (if you disagree you are a racist or against progress or even worse a distraction) That is a scary amount of power.

Thats why it is so important to not elect him. That is the biggest reason I support McCain or anyone who can beat him.

tottoritodd on June 12, 2008 at 1:53 PM

JiangxiDad on June 12, 2008 at 1:50 PM

scratch that

JiangxiDad on June 12, 2008 at 1:54 PM

Like most liberals, you have both the manners and the intellect of a weasel…weasel man.
flenser on June 12, 2008 at 1:46 PM

No, you left wing clown, …
flenser on June 12, 2008 at 1:51 PM

Thanks for finally showing your true colors.

wise_man on June 12, 2008 at 1:54 PM

ClassicCon on June 12, 2008 at 1:50 PM

However you want to take it. Free country. Free enough to vote for McCain, which I have chosen to do because I believe he will be a better choice then ANY other choice put on the table. You don’t agree with it. Enjoy the revolution. I’ll be fighting on the other side of the line.

Limerick on June 12, 2008 at 1:54 PM

Again, more lies.

weasel_man on June 12, 2008 at 1:47 PM]

For somebody who would not recognise the truth if it jumped up and bit him in his well padded arse, you are awfully free with the word “lie”.

flenser on June 12, 2008 at 1:54 PM

Keep digging you hole, flenser.

wise_man on June 12, 2008 at 1:56 PM

But we vote for those who we think will make the right decisions on the important issues of the day. Today I think there are three:

1. Islamic Terrorism
2. Enviromentalism as a relegion
3. Illegal immigration

On two of these McCain is wrong.

Which one is he right on?

flenser on June 12, 2008 at 1:57 PM

tottoritodd on June 12, 2008 at 1:53 PM

Very reasonable post Tott, and I can understand where you are coming from. Here is my point. My biggest concern right now is American Sovereignty and right at this moment I see your points 2 and 3 causing more damage than point 1.

ClassicCon on June 12, 2008 at 1:57 PM

FloatingRock on June 12, 2008 at 1:46 PM

Yeah, I know but it’s nothing like listening live, especially when you crave rational and intelligent commentary and alternative to this absurdity.

Squid Shark-
That’s an interesting point, but it would imply that the SCOTUS then has supreme power over the other two branches of power, which violates the principles of our separated – powers government. They don’t have final say – they would rule that the Constitution says we all must live on a commune and eat granola and bathe once a day, but that doesn’t make that so. So, there must be some recourse.

“No compromise with the main purpose, no peace till victory, no pact with unrepentant wrong.”
~Winston Churchill

linlithgow on June 12, 2008 at 1:58 PM

No, you left wing clown,

Sigh, I disagree with you on this and therefore I am left-wing. Who made you lord protector of Conservative thought.

the Constitution does not mean whatever the nine nitwits say it means.

Actually it does, If you disagree, I have an 8th Grade civics book for you.

Why do you imagine that you are even a Republican, let alone a conservative? You consistently repeat talking points cribbed from the ACLU

Since when has it been a conservative value to detain foreigners indefinetely without charge. Since we failed to do this right, the court has done it for us. Wrong.

Squid Shark on June 12, 2008 at 1:59 PM

Lie removed.

Squid Shark on June 12, 2008 at 1:49 PM

Ah, an example of classic newspeak in action. The factual truth is labeled a lie and thus redacted to reveal the other kind of truth; your truth.

FloatingRock on June 12, 2008 at 1:59 PM

Enjoy the revolution. I’ll be fighting on the other side of the line.

Limerick on June 12, 2008 at 1:54 PM

We may scream at each other like married couples on here, however, when the real revolution happens we will most definitely be on the same side of the line.

ClassicCon on June 12, 2008 at 1:59 PM

No, you left wing clown, the Constitution does not mean whatever the nine nitwits say it means.

flenser on June 12, 2008 at 1:51 PM

Expand.

JiangxiDad on June 12, 2008 at 2:00 PM

Yes, obligation and right. However he would have to take on both the Court and Congress at this moment. That would lead to an impeachment trial.

JiangxiDad on June 12, 2008 at 12:42 PM

There would be no grounds for impeachment. The Prez would be operating perfectly within his constitutional bounds.

LimeyGeek on June 12, 2008 at 2:01 PM

other two branches of power government

sorry ’bout that.

linlithgow on June 12, 2008 at 2:01 PM

so they have to resort to name calling and insults.

Ahh so McShame, RINO, left-wing clowns, libs, brain-dead, and fools are terms of endearment?

Squid Shark on June 12, 2008 at 2:01 PM

flenser, are you British?

Entelechy on June 12, 2008 at 2:02 PM

flenser, Floating Rock, Classic Con, simple questions:

Do you wish to see John McCain defeated in his bid for the Presidency. Who will you vote for, or will you vote at all?

Limerick on June 12, 2008 at 2:05 PM

flenser on June 12, 2008 at 1:57 PM

Come on, are you gonna make your self look that…well I don’t want to call names, just put the tin foil hat back on…

ClassicCon on June 12, 2008 at 1:57

I agree. But look at the passes Obama gets now. If he wins he has the power of the Presidency and the media.

If McCain wins, we might hold some seats in congress, and live on. As I said in an earlier post, if you haven’t read about Mark Steyn and the “Human Rights Council” in Canada. It’s really shocking. I truelly believe that this will start if Obama is elected. It happened in Canada (not some south american banana republic) it can happen here

tottoritodd on June 12, 2008 at 2:05 PM

Since when has it been a conservative value to detain foreigners indefinetely without charge

Yeah, these poor “foreigners” were just out herding their sheep when the evil US military swooped in and detained then so they could haze them like fratboy freshmen.

I think there is more to it…

ClassicCon on June 12, 2008 at 2:06 PM

Pres. has to protect and defend the Constitution.

Fixed

Squid Shark on June 12, 2008 at 1:51 PM

…against all enemies, domestic and foreign.

JiangxiDad on June 12, 2008 at 2:06 PM

The military is required to defend the constitution, the Supreme Court has ruled on the Constitution WRT this case, we are bound as officers to uphold that.
So is the president.

Squid Shark on June 12, 2008 at 1:48 PM

The President is bound to uphold the Constitution, NOT the SC. It is just as much the Presidents responsibility to determine what is constitutional and what is not. And considering this involves foreigners on foreign soil is obliged to ignore the SC in my view.

NotCoach on June 12, 2008 at 2:07 PM

In other words, the Supreme Court makes rulings. That is how the government is set up to function.

How terrifyingly ignorant of you. SCOTUS cannot make law, it cannot veto law, it can only apply law, just like any other court.

There is nothing wrong with asking the highest court in the land for an opinion on issues of constitutionality, but the constitution itself does not empower the judiciary with any authority over the other branches…..so an opinion is just….an opinion. It has zero force, constitutionally speaking.

We have gotten into a rut where we do not think of this any more, and instead blindly follow court opinions as if they are law. This is wrong and stupid on our part.

Judicial opinions at any level should only serve to inform the legislative and executive branches – and we the people should hold all their feet to the fire.

If the SCOTUS makes a bad decision, call it out as bullshit and ignore it.

LimeyGeek on June 12, 2008 at 2:08 PM

Keep digging you hole, flenser.

Keep wowing us with those sophisticated and fact-filled comments.

Q: Would you close Guantanamo Bay?

MCCAIN: Yes. I would close Guantanamo Bay. And I would move those prisoners to Fort Leavenworth. And I would proceed with the tribunals.

Q: Why? What’s wrong with the way it was handled?

MCCAIN: Guantanamo Bay has become an image throughout the world which has hurt our reputation. Whether we deserve it or not, the reality is Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib have harmed our reputation in the world, thereby harming our ability to win the psychological part of the war against radical Islamic extremism.

There you have it. The facts don’t matter. “World opinion” is what matters. Of course, “world opinion” is against the GWOT. “World opinion” is against America, period.

I don’t believe that this slave to world opinion is going to stand up for America.

flenser on June 12, 2008 at 2:08 PM

Do you wish to see John McCain defeated in his bid for the Presidency. Who will you vote for, or will you vote at all?

Limerick on June 12, 2008 at 2:05 PM

What difference would it make if McCain is President? He says we’re torturing people at Gitmo, and he promised to close it and give the Unlawful combatants the very rights that the Supreme Court just gave them. So tell me again the importance of voting for McCain? So I can see decisions just like this?

Snake307 on June 12, 2008 at 2:09 PM

Do you wish to see John McCain defeated in his bid for the Presidency. Who will you vote for, or will you vote at all?

Limerick on June 12, 2008 at 2:05 PM

I will promise to vote for McCain this Nov, if you can promise me that in 2012 the RNC will not nominate and even more liberal candidate.

To answer your question, this is seriously causing me grief. On one hand I would like to see the country suffer hard for a few years to open some eyes and facilitate real change, however, the other part of me says to tow the party line and hope some sort of progress can become of it. At the moment I am leaning towards the former.

ClassicCon on June 12, 2008 at 2:10 PM

I think there is more to it…

ClassicCon on June 12, 2008 at 2:06 PM

Your right, some were caught on the battlefield, some were turned over by foreign govt or taken by our own intel services, some were turned over by bounty hunters.
Some have been released. Some have been found again, fighting the US.

The Geneva Convention is NOT CLEAR on this topic, and we were wrong to give the SCOTUS an opening to really eff it up.

Squid Shark on June 12, 2008 at 2:10 PM

Whatever I say seems to be dismissed as a rant, if you don’t agree with it. If you percieve it as a rant, or just use the word as a dismissal of a statement, I have no control over that. I do see a lot of pharisee conservatives on this blog. There is a lot of my way or the highway. My conservative god can lick your conservative god because he isn’t a true, pure conservative. 99-44/100% conservative won’t do.

The summation of my arguement is on the day after the election there will be only Obasma or McCain. There won’t be a listing for Indy Conservative et al (don’t take that personally Indy, you impress me, but I can’t remember all the others). Sit out all you want for whatever reason you wish.

If you want to be heard or herd, take it directly to the McCain compaign. Go on the net to them or down to their local campaign office. If they won’t listen, keep at them until they do. I suggest you stop trying to convince people that not exercising an important right is better than doing the best you can with the available selections. You know, if you don’t like the selection you can always hold your breath until you turn blue and kick your feet.

The best suggestion I have read so far is to go after your congressman or senator with the same energy with which you are arguing conservative theology.

This is from a 45-year Republican who just reregistered independent. My congressman is a Dimocrat but he just refused to support Obama. My senators are Inhoff and Coburn. I put my words into action. What about you?

Old Country Boy on June 12, 2008 at 2:10 PM

Snake307 on June 12, 2008 at 2:09 PM

I grant you he wants GITMO closed. Please provide the backup for your statement that he wants the terrorists to have the rights that the SCOTUS decision granted today.

Limerick on June 12, 2008 at 2:11 PM

Ahh so McShame, RINO, left-wing clowns, libs, brain-dead, and fools are terms of endearment?

Squid Shark on June 12, 2008 at 2:01 PM

That’s a good point except that, it seems to me, that the McCain boosters resort to these methods right off the bat as a tactic and the other side out of frustration.

FloatingRock on June 12, 2008 at 2:12 PM

As I said in an earlier post, if you haven’t read about Mark Steyn and the “Human Rights Council” in Canada. It’s really shocking.

Do you know where McCain stands on free speech? Do any McCain supporters have the faintest idea where their guy stands on the issues? Really, this is incredible.

flenser on June 12, 2008 at 2:12 PM

On one hand I would like to see the country suffer hard for a few years to open some eyes and facilitate real change

Time to pull a metaphorical ‘John Galt’ then ;)

LimeyGeek on June 12, 2008 at 2:12 PM

Scalia: “The Nation will live to regret what the Court has done today.”

Well…here’s hoping, anyway.

James on June 12, 2008 at 2:13 PM

he promised to close it and give the Unlawful combatants the very rights that the Supreme Court just gave them.

Lie, if you repeat a lie often enough it will not become true.

He advocated charging them with something, not giving them constitutional rights. He has supported tribunals from the beginning.

Squid Shark on June 12, 2008 at 2:13 PM

Perhaps the best response to a stupid and suicidal Supreme Court decision is not to attack each other. Our time would be better spent mocking Ruth Bader Ginsberg’s ugly eyeglasses. Or maybe even attacking the logic behind Kennedy’s decision.

I know we sometimes feel like letting off off steam, but there is a purpose to good old-fashioned conservative decency in stopping such behavior. It elevates dialog.

thuja on June 12, 2008 at 2:14 PM

ClassicCon on June 12, 2008 at 2:10 PM

Perfectly logical. I am not a party bot. I disagree with McCain on many issues (the fence and ANWR as two of those).
I am basing my decision on how I believe the best way forward is. I would rather work from within then without. It is that simple. It really is.

Limerick on June 12, 2008 at 2:14 PM

flenser on June 12, 2008 at 2:08 PM

Again, more lies. Interjecting your opinion with a quote and telling us your interpretation. This is what democrats do.

You are a liar.

wise_man on June 12, 2008 at 2:14 PM

Time to pull a metaphorical ‘John Galt’ then ;)

LimeyGeek on June 12, 2008 at 2:12 PM

I’m on board. Enough is enough. Let them suffer the consequences.

Entelechy on June 12, 2008 at 2:15 PM

Do you wish to see John McCain defeated in his bid for the Presidency. Who will you vote for, or will you vote at all?

Limerick on June 12, 2008 at 2:05 PM

As of now I haven’t found a presidential candidate that I can vote for. I might vote against Obama but I’m not sure who my protest vote will go to. If McCain wants my vote he’ll have to earn it, which he’s made no attempt to do so far.

FloatingRock on June 12, 2008 at 2:15 PM

he promised to close it and give the Unlawful combatants the very rights that the Supreme Court just gave them.

Lie, if you repeat a lie often enough it will not become true.

He advocated charging them with something, not giving them constitutional rights. He has supported tribunals from the beginning.

Squid Shark on June 12, 2008 at 2:13 PM

They are repeating it. They are being successful at spamming this site with their lies.

wise_man on June 12, 2008 at 2:16 PM

flenser on June 12, 2008 at 2:08 PM

The key to McCain’s interesting stance on Gitmo…

Its a FACT that as soon as these guys hit American soil, they were entitled to Habeus Corpus. Everyone knew that, it was settled law. Thats the whole reason we kept them at Gitmo in the first place.

So, McCain saying close Gitmo and move them to the US is saying he either WANTED these guys to get full rights, or, as with Global Warming, did not know his facts but was willing to make a judgement upon it. As he was part of the Armed Services Comitee, I find it hard to believe that he was ignorant of the legal facts…. soooo….

Either way, not good IMO.

Romeo13 on June 12, 2008 at 2:16 PM

flenser on June 12, 2008 at 2:08 PM

You still fail to show where McCain has agreed with this decision in fact or principle.

Keep digging for it, since it does not exist, I am not holding my breath.

Squid Shark on June 12, 2008 at 2:16 PM

On topic, that’s why I like them shot when spotted. It’s legitimate in a war, and less problematic. Yes, I know some of you will say “but, but, E, the information we gather from them…” It ain’t worth is. Shoot them. They’d do the same to us. This is not a round of golf and being nice and fair is for this century, when they are still somewhere between the 7-11th.

Entelechy on June 12, 2008 at 2:17 PM

Justice Roberts himself in his disent.

“So who has won? Not the detainees. The Court’s analysis leaves them with only the prospect of further litigation to determine the content of their new habeas right, followed by further litigation to resolve their particular cases, followed by further litigation before the D. C. Circuit—where they could have started had they invoked the DTA procedure. Not Congress, whose attempt to “determine—through democratic means—how best” to balance the security of the American people with the detainees’ liberty interests, has been unceremoniously brushed aside. Not the Great Writ, whose majesty is hardly enhanced by its extension to a jurisdictionally quirky outpost, with no tangible benefit to anyone. Not the rule of law, unless by that is meant the rule of lawyers, who will now arguably have a greater role than military and intelligence officials in shaping policy for alien enemy combatants. And certainly not the American people, who today lose a bit more control over the conduct of this Nation’s foreign policy to unelected, politically unaccountable judges.”

NotCoach on June 12, 2008 at 2:18 PM

FloatingRock on June 12, 2008 at 2:15 PM

Fair enough and I support you in deciding exactly how you will vote.

Limerick on June 12, 2008 at 2:18 PM

He advocated charging them with something, not giving them constitutional rights. He has supported tribunals from the beginning.

Squid Shark on June 12, 2008

So we capture a terrorist from Sudan in Iraq, and we detain them formally at Gitmo which McCain said he wanted to close, and now bring them to Florida, and we have to charge them, but not give them rights? Are you really that stupid? Please tell me you haven’t been breeding.

Snake307 on June 12, 2008 at 2:19 PM

The Geneva Convention is NOT CLEAR on this topic, and we were wrong to give the SCOTUS an opening to really eff it up.

Not following your point. By opening I assume you mean putting the prison in Gitmo which the SCROTUM deemed US territory as far as civil rights are concerned. So does that mean, if we had the prison in Kuwait then you would not have a problem with the US detaining foreigners?

ClassicCon on June 12, 2008 at 2:19 PM

They are repeating it. They are being successful at spamming this site with their lies.

wise_man on June 12, 2008 at 2:16 PM

Not successful, and not spamming. McCain will have to speak about this. When he does, fully, or as fully as he’s willing to, people will decide for themselves.

JiangxiDad on June 12, 2008 at 2:20 PM

Limerick on June 12, 2008 at 2:11 PM

Wow, I guess I’m not yelling loud enough.

I think I addressed this earlier. The reason Gitmo is on foreign soil is because the Constitution did not stretch to Cuba. Add to that these prisoners are technically combatants because they don’t wear a uniform, and the case could be made that due process doesn’t extend to them.

Put them on American soil and they can make the claim that since they are within the borders of the US, they need to be afforded the same Constitutionally guaranteed protections us law abiding citizens have. They then can clog up our courts with ACLU lawyers and fight to have classified documents and intel as part of disclosure in their defence.

This is why there was so much yelling when McCain said close Gitmo, and why the President said he would as soon as he could find countries to take these combatants.

Of course, now the SCOTUS has screwed that all up, and unless someone is really clever, or the Pres uses an Executive Power or his cojones, we’re looking at KSM in America, with the best lawyers CAIR money can buy.

linlithgow on June 12, 2008 at 2:21 PM

As of now I haven’t found a presidential candidate that I can vote for. I might vote against Obama but I’m not sure who my protest vote will go to. If McCain wants my vote he’ll have to earn it, which he’s made no attempt to do so far.
FloatingRock on June 12, 2008 at 2:15 PM

You can’t vote “against” Obama when you don’t know who your vote will go to.

A protest vote for Ross Perot against Bush resulted in Bill Clinton being elected. Ross Perot divided the Bush vote.

There are two people on the ballot this november. All the votes will be tallied for who voted for Obama, and all the votes will be tallied for who voted for McCain. This is how it works. If you write in a candidate, or vote for a third party, your vote won’t be “a protest,” it will be a vote that did not go for McCain. If enough of you people do this, if enough of you people convince otherwise intelligent conservatives to do this, then the end result is that Obama will win.

Obama will win. If you are successful. Obama will win.

If you are a conservative, you won’t want to see Barack Obama sworn into office, select a liberal cabinet, work with a democrat controlled house and senate, and possible pick a supreme court justice in his 4 to 8 years.

wise_man on June 12, 2008 at 2:21 PM

Romeo13 on June 12, 2008 at 2:16 PM

The Military Comissions Act is pretty clear that combatants do not get habeus corpus.

Squid Shark on June 12, 2008 at 2:21 PM

flenser on June 12, 2008 at 2:12 PM

Yes, McCain tried to regulate money’s influence in elections. Yes in a free and capitalist society that equals limiting free speech. And yes that is wrong. But to equate that with stopping speech that is considered offensive is assanine. Both are wrong. But with McCain-Fiengold we have already seen overturns via our court(although also flawed) system. With the canadian system there is NO recourse.

Please use that brain that you have and try to see the difference.

tottoritodd on June 12, 2008 at 2:21 PM

I’m on board. Enough is enough. Let them suffer the consequences.

Entelechy on June 12, 2008 at 2:15 PM

Seems fair, as I have been suffering from your RINO congress and President. Way to shrink that government and spending…

ClassicCon on June 12, 2008 at 2:21 PM

Since when has it been a conservative value to detain foreigners indefinetely [sic] without charge. Since we failed to do this right, the court has done it for us. Wrong.

Squid Shark on June 12, 2008 at 1:59 PM

Just foreigners right? I mean that is what they are, we just went to random countries, without any cause or plan of action, rounded up the people there and shipped them off to camps right? That is how you see it, correct?

the Constitution does not mean whatever the nine nitwits say it means.

Actually it does, If you disagree, I have an 8th Grade civics book for you.Then you need to sue your 8th grade school for indoctrination/shoddy education.

The Constitution never setup the Supreme Court to be its interpreter, the Court just declared that it was all by itself. And the Founding Fathers that were around at the time were concerned/aghast/offended by the action.

They knew back then days like this were in the works, and that the Court had too much power.

Voidseeker on June 12, 2008 at 2:22 PM

Time to raise the “Black Flag” and take no prisoners! They certainly don’t treat any our Troops as such. So what the hell!

Dread Pirate Roberts VI on June 12, 2008 at 2:22 PM

Sorry formating screw up on my last post:

Actually it does, If you disagree, I have an 8th Grade civics book for you.

Then you need to sue your 8th grade school for indoctrination/shoddy education.

The Constitution never setup the Supreme Court to be its interpreter, the Court just declared that it was all by itself. And the Founding Fathers that were around at the time were concerned/aghast/offended by the action.

They knew back then days like this were in the works, and that the Court had too much power.

Voidseeker on June 12, 2008 at 2:23 PM

linlithgow on June 12, 2008 at 2:21 PM

I do not discount anything in your argument that this is a bad decision. I do not, however, project my feelings that this is a McCain decision.

If McCain comes out with a statement that pats the justices on the back then I’ll take that badly. What I won’t do is throw out conjecture as fact as some here would have you believe.

Limerick on June 12, 2008 at 2:24 PM

Insanity.

James on June 12, 2008 at 2:13 PM

Exactly.

VolMagic on June 12, 2008 at 2:24 PM

Its a FACT that as soon as these guys hit American soil, they were entitled to Habeus Corpus. Everyone knew that, it was settled law. Thats the whole reason we kept them at Gitmo in the first

Do you know the difference between the Military court system and the civilian system? There are differences if you care to check them out.

tottoritodd on June 12, 2008 at 2:25 PM

and possible pick a supreme court justice in his 4 to 8 years.

wise_man on June 12, 2008 at 2:21 PM

Yeah because this “conservative” SCOTUS has done wonders for us so far. Wait, what is the topic of this thread…oops.

Some things are bigger than party labels.

ClassicCon on June 12, 2008 at 2:26 PM

You people are outrageous. This ruling comes down and you’re crying about McCain and Obama. This is bigger than the Presidential race. This attempt to litigate the WoT is going to be responsible for a lot in the coming years. Unreal.

VolMagic on June 12, 2008 at 2:26 PM

Lie, if you repeat a lie often enough it will not become true.

He advocated charging them with something, not giving them constitutional rights. He has supported tribunals from the beginning.

Squid Shark on June 12, 2008 at 2:13 PM

What McCain says and what would have actually happened had we brought them to the US are two entirely different things.

FloatingRock on June 12, 2008 at 2:26 PM

What McCain says and what would have actually happened had we brought them to the US are two entirely different things.

FloatingRock on June 12, 2008 at 2:26 PM

It’s the difference between rhetoric and reality.

FloatingRock on June 12, 2008 at 2:27 PM

Snake307 on June 12, 2008 at 2:19 PM

I dont know, you are the one with the statement making no sense.

You can charge them without giving them full constitutional rights. That is what the trubunals were for.

Squid Shark on June 12, 2008 at 2:27 PM

Again, more lies. Interjecting your opinion with a quote and telling us your interpretation. This is what democrats do.

You are a liar.

witless_man

I notice that you never get around to exposing these “lies” I keep telling. Why is that?

I quoted McCain explaining why he opposed Gitmo. What part of that was my “interpetation”?

flenser on June 12, 2008 at 2:27 PM

Time to raise the “Black Flag” and take no prisoners! They certainly don’t treat any our Troops as such. So what the hell!

Dread Pirate Roberts VI on June 12, 2008 at 2:22 PM

In my timid, RINO sort of way, I agree with you. Not that our treatment of the Native Americans was good thing, but we treated them as we did under the same Constitution that we have now. I resent treating foreign terrorists better than we did the indigenous inhabitants of this land. It makes no sense.

thuja on June 12, 2008 at 2:28 PM

Some things are bigger than party labels. ClassicCon on June 12, 2008 at 2:26 PM

Yes. And the bigger thing is to realize that this decision was 5 to 4. We need more conservative on the supreme court. OR. We also need less liberals on the supreme court. If Obama is the president, who do yo think he will nominate, and the democrats will vote for?

wise_man on June 12, 2008 at 2:29 PM

Yeah because this “conservative” SCOTUS has done wonders for us so far. Wait, what is the topic of this thread…oops.

Some things are bigger than party labels.

ClassicCon on June 12, 2008 at 2:26 PM

It is not a Constructionist court yet. It is what this decision said it is 5-4 and it will be 6-3 and 7-2 under Obama.

Squid Shark on June 12, 2008 at 2:29 PM

witless_man
flenser on June 12, 2008 at 2:27 PM

Keep digging your hole.

wise_man on June 12, 2008 at 2:29 PM

I have a priority that trumps the Constitution. The tomatoes, radishes, green peppers, and jalapenos need a hydrogen and oxygen treatment.

I’ll be back (advanced apologies).

Limerick on June 12, 2008 at 2:30 PM

Limerick on June 12, 2008 at 2:24 PM

It’s not a McCain decision, per se, it’s just that if McCain had his way and the detainees were in America, without finding a foreign jail first as President Bush wanted, we would have had the same result as the SCOTUS handed down today, it just would have taken longer.

The fact is, once they come on American soil, there will be no end to the flock of pinkos and extremists who would petition for habeas corpus rights, and the argument could no longer be made that they didn’t fall under the jurisdiction of the Constitution, because they would be ON American soil.

This is how what McCain proposed – closing Gitmo – and today’s decision merge. It doesn’t matter that he said he would use tribunals on American soil, because that would have been challenged as violating due process and tribunals would have been thrown out.

linlithgow on June 12, 2008 at 2:31 PM

I’m on board. Enough is enough. Let them suffer the consequences.

Entelechy on June 12, 2008 at 2:15 PM

It is sorely tempting, isn’t it? Just wash your hands of the whole rotten mess.

The most profoundly upsetting thing I discovered (a few months after moving to the USA) was that the vast majority of ‘Americans’ are nothing of the sort. They are indistinguishable from any other servile pleb in any other statist socialistic hole.

The intellectual rigour, vibrance and energy of American patriotism can only be found burning in a select few – if we amount to 30% of the population I’d be surprised.

Yet these are the people that vote. This is why Obama (or some facsimile) is our future.

At some point, secession will have to become a deadly serious consideration.

Very sad. I can almost feel the burning shame of the Founding Fathers at what we have become.

LimeyGeek on June 12, 2008 at 2:31 PM

Squid Shark on June 12, 2008 at 2:21 PM

That act was just effectivly overturned.

And did NOT exist when McCain first made statements about closing Gitmo.

Everyone KNEW what bringing those guys to American soil meant. Thats why Gitmo was made into a prison in the first place. You know, it wasn’t always a Prison… I was there in the 80′s when it was essentialy a training base (GREAT DIVING!).

Everyone knew that as soon as these guys hit American Soil, that this exact thing would happen… in fact what the Supreme Court did was to say the Gitmo WAS American Soil, and so they have the same rights as if they were here.

So, bringing them HERE by closing Gitmo would have produced the exact same result.

Romeo13 on June 12, 2008 at 2:31 PM

flenser on June 12, 2008 at 2:27 PM

No you just pulled the old bait and switch. You say one thing about McCain and post a quote which supports one part of your assertion, but not the one we are calling you on.

Squid Shark on June 12, 2008 at 2:31 PM

and some want to stay home and vote for Obama?!??!?1 The supreme court is going to have probably 1 or 2 more appointees, I don’t want him picking them

spacekicker on June 12, 2008 at 2:32 PM

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