McCain campaign manager: His stance on immigration’s pretty sweet for a general campaign
posted at 4:40 pm on June 6, 2008 by Allahpundit
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I.e. if you’re holding your breath waiting for him to run that background check on Juan Hernandez that he’s been promising for months, it might be time to exhale. Geraldo 1, conservatives 0:
Perhaps most ominously to those who would prefer a Republican presidential candidate who echoed talk radio on the issue, illegal immigration, Davis noted that McCain’s history of stands on immigration that caused him such grief in the GOP primaries “may suit to fit him in a general election.”
They’re expecting a 10-point bounce for Obama this month, although it’s dead even right now.
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Instead of simply throwing nasty epithets at me, at least try to answer my question…thanks!
JetBoy on June 6, 2008 at 7:56 PM
Rumsfeld’s biggest failing as Sec Def was his stubborn insistance on sticking with his “transformation” plan rather than building military size to deal with the present time.
McCain and others led the battle against the administration and Rumsfeld on this issue, and had some minor victories, like
But, like I said, I found statements over the years, and a specific accomplishment, but it’s not enough.
It’s still But, But, But, But McCain sucks!
So, I just wasted a half hour of my time.
I won’t do it again, and wasn’t going to do it this time; this my first comment, and the comments of others that your mind is closed, you hate McCain and whatever facts somebody finds won’t change that.
funky chicken on June 6, 2008 at 7:49 PM
funky chicken on June 6, 2008 at 8:01 PM
Instead of simply throwing nasty epithets at me, at least try to answer my question…thanks!
JetBoy on June 6, 2008 at 7:56 PM
It has nothing to do with purchasing guns.
It has to do with checking whether or not these applicants have a criminal background – violent or sexual in nature.
From data that has to be gathered in a third-world country.
The government has only 24 hours to stop them, then they’re home free, legally.
And living next door to you and your family and your 8 year-old daughter.
btw – I live 200 yards from the border. If you don’t think that McCain is either too stupid or too much or a crappy panderer to care about this and about 300 additional horrors of his Kennedy/La Raza-written bill…….
TexasJew on June 6, 2008 at 8:09 PM
I want to assume you are joking, but in case you aren’t, it’s the amount of time allocated to an already overworked system to check to see if people about to receive clearance have terrorist ties, etc, be they AQ or MS13, etc. It’s an open door. 24 hr is as worthless as 0 because of current backlogs.
Spirit of 1776 on June 6, 2008 at 8:10 PM
Personally I think Rumsfeld was absolutely correct in his vision for fighting a prolonged war on terrorism.
(’Course I’m admittedly biased, coming from a SpecOps background; where a dozen operators with a hundred support personnel could achieve the same results in one tenth the time, as a thousand conventional troops with a hundred thousand support troops and ten million tons of equipment….. IF they were ALLOWED to do what was necessary.)
It is my opinion that the reason that the surge is working so well has less to do with the number of boots on the ground than it does because the ROI has been changed to permit the troops to be somewhat more aggressive on pursuing and defeating the enemy, and more political pressure on the Iraqis to start doing their share.
McCain, like 99% of the other ‘ring knockers’ hates the ’snake eaters’, and despite being ‘The Maverick’, is COMPLETELY CONVENTIONAL in his ideas about warfare; Where numbers become more important than actually completing the mission.
LegendHasIt on June 6, 2008 at 8:19 PM
First of all, thank you for your time, Funky Chicken.
However, my mind isn’t closed; I just don’t like what McCain has become even though I’ve supported him in the past. While I may not support McCain today because of his consistent record of undermining our national sovereignty, that isn’t to say that I can’t be convinced that he’s been a strong advocate of increasing the size and strength of our military. Admittedly, that alone wouldn’t indicate that his vision of national security is valid because there is much more to national security that scale alone, but it’s still a part of the equation.
The reason I’ve asked for an example of legislation he’s sponsored to this affect is because I don’t trust the rhetoric of politicians. They say all kinds of things for electoral purposes that they don’t actually mean. So, for example, if Huckabee says he’s one of the strongest opponents of illegal immigration and amnesty yet his record clearly shows otherwise, I trust his record and dismiss his rhetoric.
McCain has devoted an awful lot of his time and effort trying to reward illegal immigrants with citizenship and if he hasn’t done the same increasing the scope of our armed forces while he’s had ample opportunity in his long senate career, I tend to trust his record not his rhetoric.
If McCain has made a good faith effort to increase our military budget there would be a record of him having done so. Likewise if he’d fought Clinton’s efforts to decrease it. Absent that, I have to wonder. If it exists I would have no qualms acknowledging it because my mind is open to the possibility, even if that alone isn’t a deciding factor for me.
FloatingRock on June 6, 2008 at 8:24 PM
Not gun checks; background and health checks for illegal aliens. You are VERY uninformed about illegal immigration and the McCain-Kennedy bills.
The defeated 2006 McCain-Kennedy bill had a 90 day waiting period after a Z visa application (this was itself obviously impractical); the 2007 McCain-Kennedy bill, twice defeated, changed the 90 days to a SINGLE BUSINESS DAY. The Z visa was renewable indefinitely, with permission to leave and re-enter the country, with guarantees against future deportation – even with past felonies of ID theft, not paying all/any taxes, gang member (MS-13, etc.), ad nauseum.
Why the change? To poke American citizens in the eye??
What a deal.
24 hours to process 12 to 20 million illegal aliens?
That was an incredibly cynical move to avoid any practical steps perform proper screening.
fred5678 on June 6, 2008 at 8:57 PM
I have never seen any poll other than the 2006 Zogby poll that presented all three clear choices (two of them actual legislation), other than doing nothing. All the polls you listed ask piecemeal questions, and avoid offering the three major policies.
Please take a moment, read the question carefully, and look at the stats. Even 50% of Democrats preferred the House bill approach.
It was Bush, McCain, Kennedy, Graham, et al, who all presented the tired old false dichotomy of, “We can’t deport 12 million illegal aliens, THEREFORE (sic) we must give them a pathway to citizenship.”
Baloney. They refused to acknowledge what most rational and reasonable American citizens want – law enforcement and gradual attrition.
Look at the votes in the state legislatures – overwhelmingly in favor of law enforcement.
Read up on the SAVE Act – sponsored by Heath Schuler – a Blue Dog Democrat.
Still not convinced? Listen to this illegal alien explain it to you.
fred5678 on June 6, 2008 at 9:16 PM
This is exactly why we won’t be voting for McCain or donating money.Someone in a post mentioned McCain is where the public is on immigration.Hardly!Most people do not know the behind the scenes crap that was in Mccains amnesty bill,they get asked a question by some pollster if illegals should be given earned citizenship without realizing the nonsense loaded up in most amnesty bills.Also the polling on last yrs bill showed most people against it and it was the folks who stopped it.McCains a lousy candidate who tip toed through the primary saying he “got” the message on illegal immigration getting primary voters to believe his song and dance.A poll ran a while back mentioned on the Corner by Mark Kirkorian showed republican primary voters believing McCain would be tough on illegal immigration and securing the border.Talk about uninformed!
PTN 39 on June 6, 2008 at 9:27 PM
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2008/06/05/obama_and_mccain?page=2
At a time like this, we do not have the luxury of waiting for our ideal candidate or of indulging our emotions by voting for some third party candidate to show our displeasure– at the cost of putting someone in the White House who is not up to the job.
Senator John McCain has been criticized in this column many times. But, when all is said and done, Senator McCain has not spent decades aiding and abetting people who hate America.
On the contrary, he has paid a huge price for resisting our enemies, even when they held him prisoner and tortured him. The choice between him and Barack Obama should be a no-brainer.
funky chicken on June 6, 2008 at 10:53 PM
Now you know. And now you know why it’s very very important that McCain be confronted forcefully about his shortcomings. He’s very stubborn and obstinate and won’t listen to reasonable objections to his plan once his mind is made up. How he makes up his mind is unclear.
He’s likely our next President. He must be helped/coached/coaxed/compelled to do the right thing on those domestic issues where he is out of his depth. His desire to settle old scores, and gain favorable media attention by choosing democratic positions on issues he has no particular interest in, must be confronted.
I’ll vote for him, but once again you do McCain a disservice, and his potential Presidency a disservice, when you try to diminish or obscure his weaknesses. He doesn’t recognize them in himself, so can’t avoid some big mistakes– that’s our job, to tell him. Is that anti-McCain? I say following him blindly is anti-McCain in the long run.
JiangxiDad on June 6, 2008 at 11:03 PM
Do you think that now with the minimum wage rising that employers of these lower end jobs are opting to hire more illegals whose pay they don’t have to document than legal citizens?
paulsur on June 6, 2008 at 11:43 PM
After winning an argument against the McCainites- they all disappear. They then blink and it is a whole new day. You confront them with facts, and they disappear only to fight the same fights in the next post.
I am done fighting with the likes of Jetboy, Funky Chicken, Squid Shark, Terrye, and others. It is a wasted effort as they are not open to the facts on this fatally-flawed candidate.
Valiant on June 6, 2008 at 11:47 PM
He’s likely our next President.
JiangxiDad on June 6, 2008 at 11:03 PM
Care to to make a wager on this? With the economy going further south by the days, it is ever more likley the average American voter will punish the party in power no matter who the opposition is.
Either way it is going to be a very interesting 4 years in a Chinese curse sort of way.
paulsur on June 6, 2008 at 11:50 PM
If such a large percentage of the mainstream feels as you say, then McCain won’t need our votes then will he? I personally feel it’s time to take it all down. Give it to the democrats, and let them provide everything they have promised. The system will collapse under it’s own weight, and finally socialism will be disproved. It will be very painful but we have lost all the arguments, so it’s time to let this social experiment take it’s course.
We have been screaming that this boat were on is headed over falls, while the democrats have said there were no falls, and now it’s too late to avoid them. All we can do is ride it out, and those that survive will clean up the mess, or they won’t. I guess 260 years or so will have been a pretty good run.
DFCtomm on June 7, 2008 at 12:31 AM
Well, I guess some people have real lives beyond Hot Air.
;-)
But can you rally blame them? even if they are running away from reality rather than having real life interfere with their Hot Air lives?
If I didn’t have the long, personal, history of knowing McCain’s weaknesses as well as his strengths, I’d probably be one of them too: So fearful of the Obamanation that I’d probably let the scorpion ride on my back too.
I too, would be sticking my fingers in my ears and going “LA la la,.. I can’t heeeaaarrrr you”…la, la, la” rather than letting the realities of the situation destroy what I viewed as my only hope for the future.
LegendHasIt on June 7, 2008 at 12:49 AM
George washington’s generation fought and many died to declare independence from Great Britain and you want to declare dependence on Mexico? The Abraham Lincoln generation fought and so many died to end slavery and you want to legalize and formalize a serf program?
George Washington and Abraham Lincoln would not be pleased.
MB4 on June 7, 2008 at 1:24 AM
“The likes of…”? I’m not sure what to make of that.
And I guess if you’re “done fighting” with the likes of us, then isn’t it you who is “running away”?
Remember, McCain won the GOP primary battle. A slew of conservatives support the guy, for whatever reasons. But you holdouts really are acting like a bunch of kids who didn’t get the hot new toy for Christmas. And to what end? What good is all this doing?
Sometimes I wish I didn’t. But yes…being the social butterfly that I am I do have to run a lot. But guys, I don’t “run away” from any political argument, because you perceive that I lost.
If anything, in the long run, y’all have prodded me into more delving into McCain and the issues. Doing even more research on the guy. And for that, I should thank you.
Politics ain’t pretty…but as Hannity said on his radio show yesterday, even if “teh radical Obama” gets elected, this is still going to be the greatest, most free country in the world.
JetBoy on June 7, 2008 at 5:16 AM
It is not a shield, I was not in CONUS during the debate. I heard about it in bits and pieces but I have had to educate myself since.
When I was in the gulf, 3 to the oil teminal. When I was doing Army work on IA, enough to make me not want to go back. I wonder if you guys will come on Navy ships and chip paint for us when we get into a Naval war. You are an arrogant SOB, not at all indicative of the Army Officers I know.
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 7:24 AM
I am sorry, I have a job and a life, therefore banging my head against the wall talking to a rock like you can only occupy 10% of my day. Doctors orders.
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 7:29 AM
not for very long, no matter who gets elected.
right4life on June 7, 2008 at 9:13 AM
Hyperbole and paranoia.
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 9:19 AM
nice try, but I’ve noticed you assign anything you disagree with to the above reasons. must be a sign of paranoia and psychosis!!
but it doesn’t take a prophet to know that whoever gets elected will be unable to solve any of the problems we have facing this country, energy, SS/medicare, weak dollar, economy, etc.
they’re both big guv libs, and you reach a ‘tipping point’ which I think we’re coming to. both will further restrict freedom, both economic and personal liberty.
right4life on June 7, 2008 at 9:28 AM
And you blame all the countries problems on the persecution of Christians and gay marriage….
I do have a psychosis, you drive me nuts.
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 9:49 AM
If elected, McCain will cause this nation to slide sideways toward a sort of Nixonian presidency. Nixon has been called the last of the New Dealers and McCain is emerging as sort of a hybrid enviromental new dealer with his embrace of a carbon cap and trade regime.
Enviromental progressivism is the new New Deal and McCain is either using this as a wedge issue to cleave off voters or he actually buys into this crap. Either way, between his embrace of “low borders” policy for illegals and wacky enviromentalism….no great choice this year.
Sock it to me Milhous McCain!
moxie_neanderthal on June 7, 2008 at 10:08 AM
Well, you are nuts, and you do have a psychosis. But admitting you have a problem is the first step, so take hope.
flenser on June 7, 2008 at 10:42 AM
Here’s the crazy thing. According the the pro-McCain people, an Obama presidency would be an absolute disaster, because he’s such a far left America-hater.
But …. we must go along with granting American citizenship to tens of millions of people who regard Obama’s political views as just peachy. Down Mexico way, the Democrats would be considered a bit too right wing.
So how is supporting open borders NOT supporting Obama’s policies?
I await a response, though I’m not holding my breath.
flenser on June 7, 2008 at 10:46 AM
By that logic conservatives should all have voted for George McGovern (former WWII bomber pilot) over Richard Nixon. Can we drop the silly chicken-hawk arguments? What McCain did almost forty years ago has nothing to do with whether he should be POTUS.
I think it exposes what a dreadful candidate he is that his supporters wind up saying things like “Forget what he has done in the last ten years, let’s focus on what he did in 1969″.
flenser on June 7, 2008 at 10:55 AM
What’s so crazy about fearing an Obama presidency?
First, McCain does very well amongst latinos. But even more important….WHERE or WHEN has McCain ever said he will grant citizenship to millions of illegals? See, this is my point. You McCain-haters seem to think a President McCain means all the illegals here will be granted automatic citizenship. And you’re wrong.
*sigh* How many times does McCain have to say he’ll secure the borders FIRST. Dear gawd…don’t you guys listen to anything he says? Or is it you just won’t believe him?
Well, I’m a McCain supporter, who just replied. So breathe!
JetBoy on June 7, 2008 at 10:56 AM
Stupid argument, Nixon served in the Pacific in the Navy.
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 11:10 AM
Only in the paranoid mind of MDSers
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 11:12 AM
Were you people in a coma for the last four years? Did you just fly in on a spaceship from a different galaxy? What? There must be some rational explanation.
flenser on June 7, 2008 at 11:14 AM
I don’t know. How many times HAS he said it? I know he made some noises like that to get through the primary, but now he’s back to “comprehensive immigration reform”, in case you had not noticed.
The entire point of McCain-Kennedy, for those who just dropped in from Andromeda, was that it DID NOT “secure the borders first”, or at all.
flenser on June 7, 2008 at 11:17 AM
It’s just that McCain doesn’t talk about what he’s going to do about the border enough. His heart doesn’t seem to be in that area of his rhetoric. Is this going to happen in the first six months or six years? Is he going to use troops or some more virtual crap. Will we institute a national ID to help weed out the resident illegals?
It seems that every time the subject is brought up he can’t get off it quick enough. Soooo…. Do I believe him? Not a bit. He knows the subject is a third rail with middle America and he’s afraid of it. I don’t want that kind of leadership.
Ernest on June 7, 2008 at 11:21 AM
I do believe him. Did you read the article to which this comment thread is attached? He pretended to be a border security guy just long enough to get past the primary, and now he’s back to his default open borders position. Do you not listen to him, or do you just not believe him?
But I take it from your response that you are aware, on some level, that granting American citizenship to tens of millions of illegals will result in Obamesque policies. That’s a step in the right direction. It’s amazing how Kool-Aid drinkers believe that the ALMO voters from Mexico will move here and become followers of F.A. Hayek.
flenser on June 7, 2008 at 11:23 AM
Their argument is that “he cant be trusted” despite the fact that McCain is, for the most part, quite clear in his intentions. But since he occasionally is quite clear that he is going to give the dittoheads the finger, they call it “untrustworthiness”
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 11:23 AM
Of course we don’t believe him. McCain himself said after shamnesty that he understood the American people don’t trust/believe that the gov’t will do what it says.
He doesn’t think that includes him, because he loves himself. What’s your excuse?
JiangxiDad on June 7, 2008 at 11:27 AM
He is crystal clear in his intentions. He wants “comprehensive immigration reform”. He has said so over and over and over and over and over again.
It’s only geniuses like you who parse his words carefully and come to the conclusion that he actually means the opposite of what he says.
flenser on June 7, 2008 at 11:29 AM
A news flash for the people from Andromeda.
Now, what was that question again?
A precondition for our system of government is that the voters are not ignorant fools.
flenser on June 7, 2008 at 11:37 AM
Hmm seems I remember him getting a B+ in border security from some anti-immigration group or another. They seemed convinced by his multiple voted for the border fence and hiring more agents and tracking current illegals.
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 11:37 AM
It is, but Obama poses additional threats that McCain doesn’t.
JiangxiDad on June 7, 2008 at 11:37 AM
Well, there you go! Some anonymous blog commenter thinks he remembers McCain getting a B+ from “some anti-immigration group or another”!
That’s all we need to decide the future of the country.
That would be odd, since he has not done these things. How’s the border fence coming, bth? I’m sure John “The Border Security Hawk” McCain is pushing for it’s completion, right? It’s a staple of his campaign speechs, right? He’s introducing border security legislation in Congress, right?
flenser on June 7, 2008 at 11:51 AM
Given that McCain proposes to flood the country with millions of people who’d vote for Obama-style policies in a heartbeat, please explain the difference in threats between McCain and Obama.
flenser on June 7, 2008 at 11:53 AM
-Foreign policy differences on Iran, Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan, Hamas, Hizballah, the UN, and just about everyone else.
-Domestic policy differences on abortion, race relations, terrorism, judicial nominations.
-Military differences.
Off the top of my head.
JiangxiDad on June 7, 2008 at 12:02 PM
Go here
And see his votes, I dont know what the two votes against border fence amendments were about but I suspect they were balled up in some stupid pet project.
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 12:02 PM
Seems impossible to flood the country since they are already here.
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 12:03 PM
You know people bring in their families. Since assimilation is out of favor, the flood will become a tsunami.
JiangxiDad on June 7, 2008 at 12:14 PM
You mean THIS serf program?? In Boxer’s, Feinstein’s, and Pelosi’s own backyard – 20 pallet factories paying 4 to 5 per hour to illegal aliens, LESS rent to sleep on the floor, with power saw safety equipment removed, etc.
See this 2/08/2008 Oakland KTVU TV video (You have to enter “Jana Katsuyama Reports On Statewide Cal-OSHA Raids” and search for it).
Always the eternal optimist. I admire your perseverance in your excellent lecture series here.
The states may be our only hope.
fred5678 on June 7, 2008 at 12:40 PM
The Civil War may turn out to have been just a battle.
JiangxiDad on June 7, 2008 at 12:43 PM
There’s a lot more where that came from, and those here don’t have the right to vote, yet.
I guess you missed that they gave him a “D” overall, so they were not all that convinced. And you forgot to give me those details on the border security measures which candidate McCain is promoting, using his national stage. What are they again?
Some of you may be wondering how well John “I just LOVE Hispanics” McCain is doing with them against Obama.
Among Hispanics, McCain is getting crushed by Obama, 62% to 29%.
In other words, for all his Hispandering and all his scathing remarks about the “bigots” on the right, he’s getting about as much of the Hispanic vote as Republicans normally get. Hey, this is working out well!
flenser on June 7, 2008 at 12:50 PM
Foreign policy will be set by the Democrats next year, even if McCain wins. Congress will defund Iraq, and impeach him if he attacks Iran.
Did you know that he supports affirmative action? That he supports ACLU-style civil rights for foreign terrorists? That he supports closing Gitmo? The difference between McCain and the Dems on domestic policy are trivial.
flenser on June 7, 2008 at 12:56 PM
1) you’re a liar. you can’t back up the drivel that you just posted. you’re just upset that I make you look so foolish so easily, and I don’t back your boy captain queeg.
2) get some professional help, God knows you need it.
right4life on June 7, 2008 at 1:05 PM
that is for sure. people want the guvmint to take care of them…they’re going to find out the guvmint is going to ‘take care’ of them…capiche???
right4life on June 7, 2008 at 1:06 PM
you think captain queeg is going to take out hezbollah or their ‘big daddy’ iran??? not a chance. he’ll only pander slightly less than the messiah.
captain queeg’s justices will be like souter, no doubt. I don’t trust his ‘pro-life’ credentials, he’s for stem cell research and voted for ginsburg.
military differences? doubtful, but we’ll never get the chance to find out, cause he’s doesn’t have a chance against the new bi-racial messiah!!
can you dig it??
right4life on June 7, 2008 at 1:11 PM
Nice looks like the MDSers have returned.
I should have stayed at lunch.
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 1:17 PM
From reading the comments this morning it seems that the McCain supporters are trying to reinvent McCain’s position on illegal immigration in a fashion similar to Huckabee and his supporters. I would note a few obstacles in their path: first, Huckabee actually made an effort to voice his newly invented position on the campaign trail, and two, the effort failed miserably. The only suckers that were dense enough to fall for Huckabee’s lies were already inclined to vote for him anyway based purely on his religiosity.
FloatingRock on June 7, 2008 at 1:19 PM
A typical fact and logic free comment from you.
Why is McMoron getting his butt kicked by Obama among Hispanics? What are the implications for the results of amnesty on American politics?
flenser on June 7, 2008 at 1:25 PM
Three, McCain has been among the chief proponents of illegal immigration and amnesty for years, if not the leader of the movement, whereas Huckabee was a small time player.
FloatingRock on June 7, 2008 at 1:26 PM
That is a very good question and there are many possible reasons, many that do not relate to immigration policies.
Uno)The more recent generations of Hispanics are getting more and more socially liberal, unionized and radicalized.
You could call it the “Cesar” mentality.
Dos)The older, more socially conservative hispanic voters are dying off, becoming less active and are just plain outnumbered. We are even seeing it in the Cuban Community here in FL, where the generation that would not piss on a democrat if he was on fire are slowly giving way to a more Clintonian Democratic breed.
Tres)The Hispanic Community is heavily affected by the war in Iraq. Both Hispanics and Blacks are proportionally overrepresented in the Armed forces.
These are just ones I am spitballing.
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 1:39 PM
It seems to me that we might want to find out the answers before we convert America into a Hispanic country, especially if we really are opposed to Obama style policies, which they favor.
This assumes that once apon a time, Hispanics were more apt to vote Republican. But even while Reagan was winning in landslide majorities, he was losing the Hispanic vote by a huge margin. And that was back in the 1980’s. I don’t know that there was ever a time when they voted Republican.
flenser on June 7, 2008 at 1:46 PM
My point was really that there was a socially conversative element we could tap into (bush came very close) that is running dry.
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 1:51 PM
Bush did not come “very close”. He lost badly among Hispanics, 60-40%.
As I say, you are assuming some drop-off in Hispanic support for the GOP. In reality that’s not what is happening.
flenser on June 7, 2008 at 1:56 PM
Sorry, Bush came closer than we have before.
However, that 60%-40% is going to mean alot more in the coming years, whether you stop immigration or not.
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 1:59 PM
I don’t know what that means. If you stop immigration, you reduce the total amount of which the 60% and 40% are parts.
I’d rather lose to the Dems by twenty points among a group of twenty million people than of one with a hundred or two hundred million people.
Figures for illustrative purposes.
My initial question was a two parter, the second part being “What are the implications for the results of amnesty on American politics?”
Any response?
flenser on June 7, 2008 at 2:08 PM
The ones we are trying to get out of the U.S. are not allowed to vote and they will certainly not stop having babys.
Amnesty will result in the illegal population becoming legitimized to a degree. All of them would be forced to learn English. A “forced assimilation” policy will be an important component to this policy.
If they choose to begin citizenship applications and land in the back of the line, they may become citizens someday. Likely, they will be democrats. This is not a real reason to oppose this though. I supported the return of voting rights to felons who meet certain guidelines here in FL even though they would likely vote against my people.
The ones who do not begin citizenship applications should become part of a guest worker program which will be limited and heavily tracked. If they commit a crime or fail to register, no questions asked deportation. If this is clearly stated in the law and strictly enforced, it will lessen the effect on the body politic.
All in all, a likely net gains for the Democrats. However, the forced assimilation of immigrants may lead to less political polarization in the Hispanic Community. Kick em all out and you will be looking at the same numbers we have with blacks (this is of course a guess).
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 2:29 PM
That would be a mucho good example.
Abraham Lincoln may have to send William Tecumseh Sherman back to earth to burn
Atlantaparts of northern California to the ground.MB4 on June 7, 2008 at 2:34 PM
The reason that Republican supporters of “Comprehensive Immigration Reform” want it is so that they and/or their campaign contributors can have serf labor. They would probably prefer actual out-and-out slaves but that is illegal.
The reason that shamnesty Democrats want this is so that those who are now illegal can become legal and vote for them. Many of them probably also want to do this for the same reason that shamnesty Republicans do too.
Does anyone think that many of these shamnesty politicians really care one wit otherwise for the illegals.
Does anyone think that any of the shamnesty politicians are going to invite these Mexican Indios and Mezclados to join their elite/exclusive golf clubs?
Come to live in their gated communities, other than as servants?
Invite them to their yachts, other than as low paid deck hands and/or servants?
Invite them to their cocktail parties?
Introduce them to their daughters?
The big majority of the Mexicans who have come here/will come here are Indios and Mezclados, not the Spanish descendant light-skinned ruling class of Mexico. This is a form of ethnic cleansing by Mexico’s ruling class.
So the shamnesty politicians like McCain, Kennedy, Bush, Graham, Boxer, Feinstein, and Pelosi are aiding and abetting and facilitating ethnic cleansing.
If the U.N. were not such a joke, they would all be standing trial for trying to reintroduce a form of latter-day-slavery in the United States and for the ethnic cleansing of Mexico.
MB4 on June 7, 2008 at 2:43 PM
I suppose you McCainiacs are now swearing that McCain is really the only candidate you can see anyone voting for.
Snake307 on June 7, 2008 at 2:48 PM
An important point. We are determining the future of these United States and possibly whether or not they remain united. Our current immigration practices are flirting whith the eventual balkanization of this country. (and the Islamists haven’t even begun to arrive).
Our economy is under severe pressure and we are possibly faced with a worldwide recession or depression because if our country tanks so do world markets.
The current Islamic political/religious grab for dominance is looming over western cultures.
AND….. who do we have as candidates for steering this country through this obstical course filled with cultural and economic landmines that could bring this country down?
John Sidney McCain the “I helped get us into this mess” insider and Barack Hussein Obama the “I have nothing to offer but magnatudes of platatudes” newbey
Somehow I would have chosen differently. God help America.
Ernest on June 7, 2008 at 2:53 PM
That’s a peculiar thing to say. It will result in their becoming legitimized, period.
Legal immigrants are not “forced” to learn English. What if they don’t learn it? We began with the decision that they CANNOT be deported. Who think’s they will be deported for not learning English? Not even you, I’m sure.
There is no “back of the line”. Under the McCain-Kennedy bill they would have become citizens in twelve years.
WHAT?
You’ve been insisting that we must support McCain, because a President Obama is too terrible to even consider. But you see no real reason why we should not populate the country with people who support Obama’s policies? I think you’re very confused.
Other than your own desperate wishing, is there any reason at all to believe that this is likely to be the case? Let me remind you again that Hispanics have always supported the Democrats, since you seem to like to blow that off.
And again, it’s a guess based on your own wishful thinking rather than on any actual data. I notice you do that a lot. I guess it’s that whole “optimist Republican” thing. Do you play the lottery much? Hey, you never know!
flenser on June 7, 2008 at 3:10 PM
This does not begin with the decision that they can not be deported. It begins with the decision that we will offer conditions which will allow them to stay. That is the “conditional” part of “Conditional amnesty”
Are we discusing a bill which has been defeated or are we discussing McCains actual proposals?
You seem to insist on making this a racial argument when it is a class argument. If Hispanics get out of the barrios and start becoming real business owners and part of the community than it may change. We have no clue how the winds will shift in 20 years.
This country goes nowhere without optimists. (Theodore Roosevelt, Reagan anyone?)
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 3:41 PM
Oh, balls. The McCain position begins with the position that they can stay, and then ties to figure out some way to sell that position to the rubes. Your position is not McCains.
The bill which was defeated was McCains actual proposal. Why are you unaware of that?
Actually, you repulsive little turd, I made zero mention of race. As usual it’s the amnesty supporters who like to bring that up. Never accuse me of racism again.
And maybe blacks and Jews will start voting Republican too. Do you have anything better to offer than this sort of mindless drivel?
“Hey, lets make America a Hispanic country! Maybe they’ll turn out to be conservative, in spite of the evidence so far!”
flenser on June 7, 2008 at 3:53 PM
Reagan was not an optimist, as you use the word. If he had been your sort of optmist he’d have disbanded the US military out of “optimism” that the Russians were our friends. By your standards the man was a pessimist.
flenser on June 7, 2008 at 3:55 PM
So the answer to my earlier question – how can you oppose Obama while favoring the creation of new Obama voters – seems to be “Well, perhaps if we hope really hard they won’t turn out to be Obama voters after all, regardless of how they vote at present”.
That’s magical thinking.
flenser on June 7, 2008 at 4:00 PM
MB4 on June 7, 2008 at 2:43 PM
Amen!
I have a suspicion that most of the people who are either pro-immigration or just don’t really care about it fall into one of the following categories:
1) They live in an area that doesn’t have a large illegal or even legal hispanic population
2) They are business owners that depend on immigrant labor
3) They are hispanic themselves and have family members that are affected by the immigration policies
4) They have a butt-load of money and can insulate themselves from the teeming masses
So, basically these people are selling out America in my opinion for their short-term personal gain or apathy.
mrsmwp on June 7, 2008 at 4:01 PM
it does seem to be squidward SOP.
right4life on June 7, 2008 at 4:04 PM
I never accused you of racism, I said you were making a racial argument, but you get bent out of shape all you want. I get accused of anti-Christian bigotry all the time, I dont call anybody turds…
You made a very broad-brushed racial generality (Hispanics vote Dem) when in fact it is much more complicated than that. It is even more complex than the political calculations of the black community. As I am sure you know, race is a very small part of a complex socio-economic formula we are dealing with. Getting rid of all the Hispanic illegals in the southwest is not going to turn the tide of Democrat voters. Those who move into their socio-economic shoes are going to likely end up in the same boat.
Such a very irrational fear. Wwe are still going to have a hell of alot of hispanics in 50 years, the birthrate of hispanic families is outstripping every other demographic grouping…
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 4:05 PM
I live in FL, so nope…
There are a lot of immigrants (including Mexicans) in the Navy getting their citizenship, but I surely dont own the Navy.
Nope, all Jew whitey here.
Maybe, the Navy pays pretty well, but I dont think it is enough to “insulate” me.
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 4:08 PM
Not to throw up a straw man here but:
The same magical thinking that a conservative “messiah” will rise from the ashes of Obama’s 8 years in office, and NOTHING will go wrong in 8 years…
That thinking, right?
Ill wallow in my false hope and you wallow in yours…
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 4:11 PM
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 4:08 PM
I said most. There are always exceptions. Also, my experience here in Dallas is with Mexicans and Guatemalans. Not sure if the culture is same as Cubans?
mrsmwp on June 7, 2008 at 4:16 PM
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 4:08 PM
Also, forgot to ask…
Are you pro illegal-immigration or do you just not really care that much about it?
mrsmwp on June 7, 2008 at 4:18 PM
your magical thinking is that mccain will be different than Obama. ain’t a dimes worth of difference between em.
the choice is between Lib and Lib-lite.
its like choosing between the devil and the deep blue sea….this is a choice????
I’m going to sit this one out. you moderates hate people like me anyway. go win without me.
right4life on June 7, 2008 at 4:19 PM
the whole plan since Kennedy started this BS in 1965 was to get as many foreigners who will vote democratic into this country as possible. mccain and the lib republicans go along, so they can have someone to cut their lawn cheap.
the gig is up. Conservatism doesn’t stand a chance in future elections. under either one, the USA will become the USSA.
right4life on June 7, 2008 at 4:21 PM
This is a difference, a dine aint worth too much these days…
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 4:26 PM
I care deeply otherwise I wouldnt bother arguing. It is not my number one issue (the war). But I care about finding a real solution to this eff-up we have gotten ourselves into.
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 4:28 PM
Ohhh we have plenty of Mexicans, brother, and every type Central American you can get. The Cubans are all legal (dry foot) so immigration is not as big to them. We also have Puerto Ricans and Dominicans in spades. The Cuban Community in Miami and Tampa is mostly middle class types and business owners. They are also the oldest community here, so their politics is different than the Younger, poorer groupings which is where I get my economics over race views.
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 4:32 PM
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 4:32 PM
By “economics over race views” are you saying that money matters more than race? Because that is exactly what I have always said. We would not be having this discussion if all of the middle-class and upper-middle class Mexico City Mexicans were coming here. The problem is that most of those coming here are poor, uneducated, and used to living in a corrupt culture. (Also, why does it seem that the poorer you are the noisier you are? That is probably my biggest problem because it is so annoying and affects my quality of life). Also, when they decide to break the law to come here, many of them also thumb their noses at most of our other laws.
mrsmwp on June 7, 2008 at 4:43 PM
Then why do you throw up a straw man instead of responding to the points being made?
Maybe you need to wonder why.
I’d like to see you admit that MCcains “actual proposals” included the “bill which has been defeated”, as you obliquely call it. Way back in this thread you were shocked and amazed that anyone would suggest that John McCain had ever even hinted at support for giving American citizenship to illegals.
It’s not, really. You can predict the outcome of political races to a high degree of accuracy by looking at just this sort of demographic data.
The idea of America is that nobody moves into their shoes. The Dems thrive on poor people. Why should we want more of them? The reason Hispanic workers today make less than they did thirty years ago is illegal immigration. Without it, they’d make more. And unless they’re like Jews, making more should translate into voting for us.
It’s your prefered mass immigration polices which are a big reason they are not getting assimilated.
flenser on June 7, 2008 at 4:54 PM
Really, I can’t let that go. Are you actually claiming that the “bill which has been defeated” was not a “McCain proposal”? It was called the “McCain-Kennedy bill” if that helps you any.
Let’s clear that up, then we’ll move on to your thinking that he does not support such a thing today.
flenser on June 7, 2008 at 5:18 PM
Have no fear. I believe in the recent past, the Mexicans persecuted the Church, and not vice-versa.
JiangxiDad on June 7, 2008 at 5:24 PM
This is not my preferred policy it is the reality of the situation.
Because some evangelicals on these board have tissue paper skin.
I was asking that one consider his current proposals and pledges. I honestly said nothing about M-K because I had to play catch up on it when I came back from deployment and have not really seen all of the arguments that have been made for and against. No citizenship is “given” this argument is being phrased like they are being handed automatic citizenship.
The people who replace them in the fields will still be dirt poor, but they will be dirt poor and unionized. Making more democratic voters no matter what we try.
No fooling, I never realized they would make more if they were legal, wow, thanks for that. Still be poor though.
And I bet if you delved deeper, you would see that most of that Demographic Data corresponds with economic indicators.
Many , not all, Jews are Dems due to strong social liberalism which comes from cultural traditions(which are only slightly tempered by support for Israel). Hispanics have a mush deeper well of cultural conservatism, but have, as you said, a tolerance for corruption and bureaucracy.
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 5:28 PM
Listen, I understand fully that McCain Kennedy is a McCain proposal, I know I am a repulsive turd, but really, a little credit, please.
What would you like John McCain to do right now to make you believe he believes in border security (which I contest he has)? I can take the man at his word that he will endeavor to fulfill the plan on his platform. That is not enough for you clearly since you are so high and mighty over this lowly turd, so what does he have to do…
BTW, he received a B+ from that Border Security Group i linked to above not a D as you stated…
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 5:40 PM
Ok, it’s just that you kept calling it “a bill which has been defeated”, as if it had nothing to do with McCain.
I notice you’re NOT trying to say that he does not believe in American citizenship for illegals, which was the original bone of contention. Can I assume that you are conceding that point?
As for border security – I’d like to see McCin use the national spotlight he has to call for border security. I’d like to see him explain why we don’t have border security at present, eight years after 911. I’d like to see him explain why border security is held hostage to things like amnesty and guest worker programs. Those would all be a good start for him.
You misunderstood what you read. It’s not a “border security group”, it’s an immigration reform group, and they gave McCain a D.
His grade on border security places him towards the bottom of all Republican Senators. Thirty one have better grades then he does on this, sixteen have worse grades.
Here is the full ranking. He’s in RINO country, coming in behind people like Snowe and KBH.
flenser on June 7, 2008 at 6:25 PM
I looked at the link, of course he got crappy grades for amnesty ETC, we were talking about his commitment to border security when I linked this.
I will concede that he wants an amnesty, I never really contested that. The way these arguments go, the anti-amnesty crowd makes it seem like there is blanket citizenship being handed out for free, that is the point I am contesting.
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 6:35 PM
All right. Tell me what part of that point you are contesting. The “free” part? The “blanket” part? The “citizenship” part?
As I’ve already pointed out, any mass amnesty and citizenship program wll have dire consequences for America, in the sense of making Obama style policies inevitable. You never really managed to disagree with that in a meaningful way.
Now, if you are saying that McCain will not grant a mass amnesty and citizenship program, that’s the only thing that might get me to vote for him. So bring on the arguments to that effect. I’d like for you to be right.
flenser on June 7, 2008 at 7:16 PM
Tres)The Hispanic Community is heavily affected by the war in Iraq. Both Hispanics and Blacks are proportionally overrepresented in the Armed forces.
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 1:39 PM
Ummm…proof? This is patently false and a leftists argument a La Charlie Rangel.
Amnesty will result in the illegal population becoming legitimized to a degree. All of them would be forced to learn English. A “forced assimilation” policy will be an important component to this policy.
Forced to learn enblish? Ummm…we haven’t been “forcing” them do to much of anything yet; does the legislation say this? If they don’t learn english, then what?
However, the forced assimilation of immigrants may lead to less political polarization in the Hispanic Community…
The ‘86 amnesty proves this to be extremely unlikely.
…and I put all of this up before reading the rest of the comments – oh well.
Most folks who “don’t like McCain” have perfectly valid reasons for their dislike. There are some positives McCain brings to the table which Obama does not have.
That being said, the devil is in the details.
Judges: Just how effective will McCain be getting originalist judges appointed to the bench with a more heavy Democrat controlled congress? The argument could be made he will be able to puch through some like Reagan, but another O’Connor is hardly comforting. And since he has shown a propensity for working more with Dems over the last decade than Repubs, at best this point could be labeled hardly black and white.
Taxes: We know McCain has said he wants to make the Bush tax cuts permanent, plus. He has a decent pro-tax cut voting record, plus. But his support of thisngs like Warner -Lieberman on “climate” would effectively erase any benefit of the plus tax-cut arguments one could make. And yes, I know McCain didn’t actually vote one way or the other for W-L, but he sent a letter of support to democrats stating he would have voted FOR it. In my book this again negates any pro-tax cut evidence for McCain and is a big negative towards traditional Repub “small government” policies.
Immigration: His position is plainly against the mainstream Repub and conservative position. I see a lot of nuance on both sides of this argument, but this is really the reason this legislation was defeated multiple times – the Repub base (and a lot of the general public) didn’t like what the legislation contained. And McCain could be said, the argument could be made that he did flip-flop a bit on this just within the last few months. He did say “He learned his lesson”, and then made statements more in line with the conservative stance. Then just recently he came back out in support of “comprehensive immigration reform”, basically putting forth his older position – the only change being he has SAID he wants to “secure the borders first”. Yet no speeches or ranting on the trail about why we haven’t been building that border fence…
The War: He wants us to win the GWoT. No doubt. But his stance on “torture” and Gitmo qualify this support. I have no doubt he wants to win and would do what is needed to do so, but taking the leftist/Dem position, to me, seems either pandering but just plain wrong. doing something which would probably result in conferring Constitutional protections on these scumbags is wrong. I don’t really see any nuance in that.
Then we could get into McCain-Feingold, Gang of 14, and global warming and a lot of people see a guy who ISN”T much better than the alternative.
Obama is hardly a choice, but to say McCain is what America needs is either ignoring the obvious, or just more of “voting against” something the right has, unfortunately become much to comfortable with.
catmman on June 7, 2008 at 7:59 PM
Heritage foundation concurs. Hispanics are 1.09-1.11 ratio in armed forces 2003-2005.
Blacks are 1.44.
Whites are proportional.
There is no such protection that he seeks to detainees. He wants us to stop playing little games with legalities. Remove all questions. Bring detainees to Leavenworth and charge them keep in mind these are not just people who were caught on the battlefield.
Squid Shark on June 7, 2008 at 8:50 PM
This was a great site before the lefty trolls and Republican posers showed up in mass (I guess I repeated myself). Is that you Senator? If not just another McCainiac sycophant.
jwp1964 on June 7, 2008 at 9:11 PM
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