Israeli Cabinet minister: We will attack Iran
posted at 9:00 am on June 6, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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With Ehud Olmert running out of political gas from a corruption scandal, his Kadima party needs to find a new leader, and given Kadima’s strength, that leader could become the next Prime Minister. Shaul Mofaz, currently a Kadima Cabinet minister and a former defense minister, wants the job. If he gets it, Iran may have a problem on its hands:
An Israeli Cabinet minister has said the country should attack Iran if it continues with its nuclear program, a newspaper reported Friday.
The Yediot Ahronot daily quoted Shaul Mofaz as saying, “If Iran will continue with its plan to develop nuclear weapons, we will attack it.” …
Mofaz is a former defense minister and army chief. He would like to replace Prime Minister Ehud Olmert as head of the Kadima Party in light of a corruption scandal that threatens to bring Olmert down.
Mofaz told the newspaper that economic sanctions have not worked and would not keep the Iranians from building nuclear weapons. The only solution he sees is to attack Iran and destroy their facilities, which he said Israel would do before Iran has a chance to complete their work. Mofaz also stated that the US would support any Israeli action against Iran.
That may depend on who gets elected in November here in the US more than whether Mofaz becomes PM. While Barack Obama has shifted more towards Israel and away from tete-a-tetes with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, it seems unlikely that an Obama administration would publicly support an Israeli attack on Iranian installations, and that’s not a knock on Obama. The Reagan administration didn’t support Israel’s first-strike attack on the Osirak reactor in Iraq in 1981, either, although Reagan himself was sympathetic (see The Reagan Diaries, pages 24-5).
If Israel expects American backing for such an attack, then it would make sense to see it come sooner rather than later, and not just for the obvious nuclear-development timeline. George Bush might at least be sympathetic to such an attack, and John McCain might be as well, but the Israelis have to see a McCain victory as a toss-up at best right now. Their window of opportunity may be closing. If Obama wins the election, Israel would have two months to conduct an attack that would hopefully devastate Iranian nuclear facilities.
If Israel conducts the attack successfully, don’t expect to see Arab nations rising in indignation to declare war on Israel. They don’t want a nuclear Iran any more than Israel does. Israel should expect all-out war from the Iranian terrorist proxies Hamas and Hezbollah, and the US may find our position in Iraq seriously damaged as well.
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Besides having military and security value to Israel, their carrying out such an attack would likely also have PR value to the Israeli citizenry.
It would be seen as a reminder that Israel can still pull off the major daring military operation, like when they swooped into Uganda in the middle of the night in 1976 and made a fool out of Idi Amin.
Del Dolemonte on June 6, 2008 at 9:06 AM
Why do you say that, Ed? Not disagreeing, just intrigued by the statement.
james23 on June 6, 2008 at 9:08 AM
Iran should not mess with the Zohan.
Squid Shark on June 6, 2008 at 9:09 AM
Oh, you mean a toss-up in terms of liklihood, not in terms of desireability? never mind… I’ll have another cup of coffee and come back later.
james23 on June 6, 2008 at 9:09 AM
Exactly. I’ll get myself another cup, too. ;-)
Ed Morrissey on June 6, 2008 at 9:10 AM
and oil is up $4. yee-haw.
Mr. Bingley on June 6, 2008 at 9:13 AM
Oh they’ll rise to their feet in places like the UN and Arab League. They’ll wail and keen and ululate. But they won’t raise and army and won’t do a damn thing, because Israel does their dirty work for them.
What kind of a people never say and do and think the same thing at the same time?
JiangxiDad on June 6, 2008 at 9:14 AM
It would really put Obama on the spot to put his money where his mouth was on supporting Israel. But he will use the out of “Well, Iran is the victim here.”
Grafted on June 6, 2008 at 9:18 AM
They have the capability to strike, but not the capability to follow it up (unless someone plays in the nuke locker).
Last year the IAF spent a lot of time in air-air refueling training. The Israeli government allowed the JP to report on it as a clear warning to Tehran that not only do we want too but we can. The problem is following up from the initial strike(s). Sure, they can get some of the targets the first or second go around, but just some. They don’t have the ability to sustain an air campaign over Iran. Turkey or Saudi Arabia might turn a blind eye to the first few over flights but after that all bets are off. Only one nation can fly a sustained air superiority and bombing campaign and we all know who that is.
So is Israel willing to throw the dice that the U.S. will jump in after they take action?
Limerick on June 6, 2008 at 9:19 AM
When Obama gets elected, Iran will start thinking they have a friend in Washington.
Isreal will have to step it up if they want to exist.
TheSitRep on June 6, 2008 at 9:23 AM
oops, when i said $4 i meant $6
Mr. Bingley on June 6, 2008 at 9:24 AM
I would bet they make a serious move against Hamas and possibly Hezbollah before they attack Iran, as a preemptive measure to the preemptive measure.
CP on June 6, 2008 at 9:24 AM
There are ways we can “play without playing”
Squid Shark on June 6, 2008 at 9:25 AM
When Obama gets elected, Iran will
start thinking theyhave a friend in Washington.Isreal will have to step it up if they want to exist.
Thats what I really meant.
TheSitRep on June 6, 2008 at 9:26 AM
Wouldn’t it be a hoot if the Israelis conducted the mission jointly with KSA or Egypt? Like you say, Ed, they don’t want a nuclear Iran any more than the Israelis do.
Kafir on June 6, 2008 at 9:26 AM
Thanks for telling them.
I’m sure backdoor negotiations are underway to let Iran know when and where.
I hope Ehud Olmert has an exit strategy, um, from office, I mean.
Indy Conservative on June 6, 2008 at 9:26 AM
If Israel attacks I expect the U.S. to get drawn in, simply because iran will retaliate by trying to block the Straits to affect oit prices. Probably just as well it happens quickly.
a capella on June 6, 2008 at 9:26 AM
Israel: doing jobs Americans won’t do.
pullingmyhairout on June 6, 2008 at 9:29 AM
Dangit.
iran=Iran and oit=oil.
a capella on June 6, 2008 at 9:31 AM
And for God’s sake Ed Morrissey, do you have to show Condi’s legs in the morning?
They turn me off. They’re like watching John Madden naked.
Indy Conservative on June 6, 2008 at 9:31 AM
I am not looking fwd to that. The IRCG-N will likely do some pretty good damage before we silence them.
Squid Shark on June 6, 2008 at 9:31 AM
Long range missiles? We provide the weapons. They provide the spine.
An Obama victory would only be seen as a green light by Iran to make good on their promise to wipe Israel off the map.
This election has 2 options. Elect a hawk, or elect a dove.
Our future, as well as Israels, depends on the right decision.
roninacreage on June 6, 2008 at 9:32 AM
Whether they secretly approve of destroying Iran’s nukes or not, they will use this occasion to rattle their swords anyway. Islamofascists love to be offended.
jgapinoy on June 6, 2008 at 9:33 AM
When Pierre Gamayel was assassinated back in 2006, we should have hit Syria and hit them hard. We had plenty of justification to do so. Simultaneously, we should’ve massed troops on the western Afghan border. Had we done that, Iran would’ve somehow, miraculously, started behaving. The entire region would’ve stabilized.
We have become such a paper tiger. Weak. History will not judge us well. We had our vile enemies surrounded on 2 sides in a pincer. And we failed to act out of sheer cowardice. Like a chihuahua barking down a Doberman.
Now Israel is left such a monumental task because of our deplorable inaction. DD
Darvin Dowdy on June 6, 2008 at 9:42 AM
Yeah, Squid, we might be bigger but the Mullahs have the ability to make a big splash in the Straits.
Also, up north, Mosul is in artillery/rocket range of Syria and Iran. We have 20,000 pairs of boots on the ground in the area stuck right between the anvil and the hammer. have you ever seen what a couple of dozen 152s can do to a square mile of dirt? Multiply that dozen into hundreds. Sure we would take them out, eventually, but before we do we have a real mess on our hands.
War with Iran has to be a coordinated, sustained, smashing. Raids won’t cut it.
Limerick on June 6, 2008 at 9:42 AM
I kind of like Condi’s legs… IS THAT SO WRONG?
spidgy on June 6, 2008 at 9:52 AM
After $5.50 a barrel up yesterday.
Jaibones on June 6, 2008 at 9:56 AM
10-4 on that. She could get a job as a Fox anchor in November.
Jaibones on June 6, 2008 at 9:57 AM
But what about Syria. You think Asshat/Syria is going to fire rockets at U.S. troops, fully aware that he will end up broke and then dead?
Jaibones on June 6, 2008 at 9:59 AM
There are no other viable options in the long run, with Obama in the picture. Regime change would be preferable, but it ain’t gonna happen soon enough. Another negative would be the nationalistic coalesing of the Iranian populace that would be created by an armed conflict. That part can’t be helped, but the costs of waiting too long are profound, which isn’t news to anyone.
a capella on June 6, 2008 at 9:59 AM
I did it again
coalesing= coalescence.
a capella on June 6, 2008 at 10:01 AM
We have 20,000 pairs of boots on the ground in the area stuck right between the anvil and the hammer. – Limey
Holy crap! I finally disagree with Limey! Must be ’cause it’s D-Day or something? The way I sees it, we have THEM stuck right between the anvil and the hammer. Iran is surrounded by U.S. and Allied land and air forces in Iraq and Afghanistan and naval forces in the Gulf, and Syria has us on one side and Israel on the other. Seems like we’ve got ‘em right where we want ‘em. Or am I just being ‘Optimisticles’ again?
War with Iran has to be a coordinated, sustained, smashing. – Limey
Now THAT’S the Limey I know!
Tony737 on June 6, 2008 at 10:03 AM
IMO if Israel strikes those nuke plants, Iran will do??
Not much… they’ll yell, and scream, but in order to get regular Iranian army units to Israel, or Airpower, they have cross either Iraq (which we won’t let them) or Turkey.
Turkey is not going to let them have airspace… and we control the air in Iraq… sooooo…
They may let loose Hez, and Hamas, but that is the EXACT thing Israel wants. Proof of collusion, and then a stand up fight.
IF Iran lets loose a bunch of suicide types, it weakens their hand with the world community.
If Iran plays the oil card and closes the straights of Hormuz? It brings the US military into play, which they DON’T want to do in a stand up fight.
Iran has been playing brinksmanship for a long time, but that only works as long as your opponent plays civilized.
Romeo13 on June 6, 2008 at 10:03 AM
Tomorrow sounds good as far as attacking Iran. It’s about thirty years late, but better late than never.
It’s like an infected tooth. At some point you have to summon up the courage to pull it. Especially when we’ve had servicemen killed by these Islamic swine.
Hening on June 6, 2008 at 10:04 AM
Israel will attack Iran’s nuclear facilities with or without US support. They have no choice.
infidel65 on June 6, 2008 at 10:07 AM
I kind of like Condi’s legs … Spidg
Totally agree with that! Dr. Rice is sexy.
Tony737 on June 6, 2008 at 10:10 AM
Missles? I don’t know the range. Sleeper cells in the U.S or Europe already in possession of dirty bomb packages provided by Pakistan or NK? Think about the European response to a nuclear det in their cities as a way of leveraging the U.S. and Israel. Hell, think about the U.S. reponse to one here and political fingerpointing. This is a high stakes chess game.
a capella on June 6, 2008 at 10:12 AM
I have to disagree with this.
America could modernize an ancient combat tactic, the punishment raid.
Iran’s economy is very fragile, and could be taken out from the air pretty easily. Take out bridges, refineries, munition plants, oil production facilites, electricity generation… basicly move them back to the Dark Age culture that some of their leaders want.
Then leave it. Don’t invade. Don’t occupy. Let their own people decide if its worth it or not.
With the internal problems they already have? Government won’t last long.
Romeo13 on June 6, 2008 at 10:14 AM
Better.
fourstringfuror on June 6, 2008 at 10:16 AM
We cannot fully do this job without the US. Either we quietly get access to a b2 or two (not happening), or a squadron of F-22s is expedited in time (unlikely) or Iraq airspace is opened with IFF squawk codes, otherwise we will not be able to sustain overflights and only a small portion of needed targets will be destroyed.
I hate to say it, but if Israel opens up on Iranian air defenses & clears corridors while striking targets, and there is a retaliation against American interests anywhere.. and the US does not follow up – It will mean not only a perilous situation for Israel, but the end of the American Empire. From their on in it is all downhill..
Whomever the leaders are at that time, we will see what they are made of.. The stuff of legends or the latest fad.
After watching the Rice policy crash/burn into the ground in Lebanon recently & seeing America sit back & watch it all while eating popcorn and saying ‘this is a great movie for Lebanon’ – honestly I don’t know where you guys are in the whole defend the Universe thing from bad people..
Clearly American willingness to operate in the foreign arena has been nearly obliterated despite success in Iraq, otherwise you would have already hit Iran for waging open war on your soldiers the last 3.5 years, as opposed to retooling your entire army with rolling MRAPS.
saus on June 6, 2008 at 10:17 AM
I agree, they do have some pieces on the table… but…
They know that if the West really wakes up? They lost. The only way they progress is because the West is NOT really angry… and is playing by its own set of Condiatarri rules of warfare… its a gentlemans game…
America woke up for a while after 9-11, and the world literaly trembled… but then we went back to sleep.
If Iran hits the West? Especialy America with WMDs? If they REALLY piss us off? Stand by, its gonna get ugly…
And they know it. IMO they won’t pull that trigger because they are not ready for a standup fight with the west.
Romeo13 on June 6, 2008 at 10:18 AM
Sorry. Wasn’t implying occupation. I do not believe we could do that. By smashing I mean a long term campaign to smash every aircraft, every barracks, every bridge, every port. That leaves them with terror/insurgency as their only weapon. A Ho Chi Minh trail, in the desert, won’t last long.
The biggest problem are the Straits. I don’t envy the blue jackets that chore.
Limerick on June 6, 2008 at 10:22 AM
I like the cut of your jib, Romeo13. We wipe out their air power with a single, huge air attack on their military bases. Won’t take long.
Then we start busting things up in isolated attacks. A bridge here, an oil refinery there, a port here, an industrial complex there.
Their economy is already crap, and the only thing sustaining it is the quadrupling of oil prices. So, eff up their shipping lanes. We don’t get our oil from Iran, and the Saudis hate them.
Making this up as I go with zero actual knowledge of the realities of messing up the gulf region even further. $200 oil is my first assumption. Still, it sounds like great fun.
Jaibones on June 6, 2008 at 10:24 AM
Many of us have been wondering the same thing.
A large part of the problem? America managed to win the cold war, and loose Viet Nam, without there being any major repurcusions to the typical American Politician. To them, its a game to be played for internal power.
So we have the Dems winning the Congress on a get out of Iraq platform, when they have no serious intention of actualy pulling out… to them? Its a game…
Problem is that their actions have serious repercusions in the rest of the world… which is why a lot of the world no longer trusts the US… and deservedly so.
Romeo13 on June 6, 2008 at 10:24 AM
Because there are so many other strong, rich nations stepping up to help out.
fourstringfuror on June 6, 2008 at 10:27 AM
Dear Lord, wait until Kos and DD get wind of our idiotic comments. They’ll have Romeo13 as Cheney and Limerick as Michael Ledeen.
It’s a conspiracy to start another war before Bush leaves office!
Jaibones on June 6, 2008 at 10:28 AM
I don’t think they could, or would, close off the straights… and as someone who spend Desert Strom IN those straights… I know a bit about it.
They could short term hit some tankers and merchants ships, BUT, its a one shot deal. Carrier based Air would obliterate anything in the area pretty soon, and we’d start running convoys… to pop up an aquisition radar anywhere near there would soon be a suicide mission.
There are also the political consequences to consider. If they close the straights China, India, and Japan, would have economic problems and I don’t think they really want to tick China off.
Russia, would love it however, as oil prices would skyrocket, and arms sales would increase.
Romeo13 on June 6, 2008 at 10:28 AM
This is the part that worries me most. No one doubts our ability to take them out over the long haul. I’m concerned about our political will to remain united in the effort. It may be that a horrific Iranian/terrorist retaliation on our home ground in response to initial contact, might be necessary to stiffen spines. but, it needs to be done before our elections. What is the time frame for a projected change in Israeli prime ministers?
a capella on June 6, 2008 at 10:30 AM
I vas ownlink following orderz!
Limerick on June 6, 2008 at 10:31 AM
So, looking at the possible ramifications of an Israeli air attack on the Nuc plants is idiotic?
Interesting…
And you’ll notice, in my first post on this, I said Iran would NOT pull the trigger on a wider war, the rest of my posts were expalining why.
That makes me Cheney?
Romeo13 on June 6, 2008 at 10:34 AM
Heh. Good soldier.
Politically, hysteria would follow here. The lib Dems’ heads would all explode, and a retaliation by terrorists against us here would be greeted with applause by Bill Maher and the Nutroots – chickens coming home to roost and all that.
Militarily possible, if painful, and politically impossible. Sissies and liberals control America.
Jaibones on June 6, 2008 at 10:35 AM
Doesn’t France get their oil from Iran?
All the more reason to take out Irans oil infrastructure at every level.
They can run their cars on cheese!
roninacreage on June 6, 2008 at 10:35 AM
I think it was just a snarc Romeo
Limerick on June 6, 2008 at 10:36 AM
No, not in my mind, but to everyone left of conservative? You bet.
Jaibones on June 6, 2008 at 10:36 AM
Truly, a snark.
Jaibones on June 6, 2008 at 10:37 AM
Ive spent time there recently.
The IRCG-N’s tactics are very good.
Their missiles are improved and efficient.
Their Navy is small but well armed diciplined and professional.
They may even have a few working subs running around.
They will get some good shots in, it will not play well in Peoria to watch the USS FARRAGUT and the USS GRIDLEY sinking before they could even get a tomohawk off.
Squid Shark on June 6, 2008 at 10:38 AM
“….the US may find our position in Iraq seriously damaged as well.”
No, I think if they were to try anything, people will be referring to the Iranian Navy in the past tense. I don’t think the mullahs are stupid enough to provoke an all-out war with us.
GarandFan on June 6, 2008 at 10:45 AM
There are no other options. It would not be risk free, either on the water or here at home. But, nothing else works. We can talk it to death, but in reality, it is a question of relative costs.
a capella on June 6, 2008 at 10:48 AM
What is Maliki’s and the Iraqi’s position on the nuclear Iran situation?
Tom
marinetbryant on June 6, 2008 at 10:50 AM
Oh, I never said we would not take casulties, but I don’t think Iran could close the straights for any long period of time unless they were able to drop a bunch of mines there, which would also close it to their shipping.
Iran has to be able to close it to others shipping, while still using it themselves, or their economy crumbles as well…
I don’t think its possible.
Romeo13 on June 6, 2008 at 10:54 AM
Key here is that Iran would have a very limited window of opportunity to strike.
Once we get serious, their ability to do damage would be degraded rapidly…
Its the time when we transition from “Peace” to war that would be their greatest chance to do damage.
Romeo13 on June 6, 2008 at 10:57 AM
More rubble less trouble. Nation building is the responsibility of whoever is left in the smoking pit.
Maquis on June 6, 2008 at 11:01 AM
Israel cannot hit Iran. This is so much smoke. The Iranian nuclear sites are scattered over the place. The US is the only one that can do it and it will take several days using stealth bombers. I cannot believe any Israeli would announce in advance an Israeli attack.
Hilts on June 6, 2008 at 11:03 AM
Israel’s political situation as we all know is beyond volatile, Olmert is finished, but it it is not so much who but when as you stated. All candidates including Olmert will act on Iran, this is a deicision which will be formed by the military & intelligence – the PM & Cabinet will only give the ok, which cannot be denied if recommended with an existential threat. It is a question of timing as you said, do we have a functioning govt or are we in mid campaign for a new one..
Hopefully the timing of our political situation will be determined in under 2 weeks, either we go to a new Kadima PM (either Mofaz above or our FM Livni), or we go to elections & Likud will win.
No matter who wins, an emergency government where domestic issues are pushed aside and all parties join in coalition is likely for November, Mofaz has already stated that if he deposes Olmert within their party, he will move to an immediate emergency government to prepare. The sad international effort for isolating Iran peacefully has created a national emergency in Israel, it cannot be put any plainer than that as Ed posted above.
saus on June 6, 2008 at 11:05 AM
The tanker channel is fairly narrow, a harrasment policy and a few scuttles ships could probably do it.
Squid Shark on June 6, 2008 at 11:09 AM
Actually, Bandar Abbas is oursitd the SOH and a major ouil port. They would be te ONLY Gulf State with Access.
SA would use Jeddah still, but their output would be hit hard.
Squid Shark on June 6, 2008 at 11:12 AM
Thank you. That tends to consolidate a timeline both for Israel and the U.S. I think Bush will make a move before our elections, now that the EU and international nuclear investigating agency has given him a reason to ignore that disasterous NIE report the CIA political toadies put out saying Iran was out of the nuclear weapons business.
a capella on June 6, 2008 at 11:17 AM
They will attack and they will use US F-22’s to do it.
Analysis: An undetectable route to Iran
US may lift ban on F-22 sale to Israel
WildcatFan on June 6, 2008 at 11:18 AM
Surely it would be prudent to find and take out their subs first? Can it be done on the same day as the Israeli strike?
I ask as a non-military person.
OldEnglish on June 6, 2008 at 11:31 AM
Uh, Bandar is inside the straights, though not far.
And I’d guess that in a wider conflict, Bandar would be hit pretty quickly.
Romeo13 on June 6, 2008 at 11:36 AM
would be smart, but would depend on if they were in port.
Israel could take the ones inport out pretty easily, as they would dictate the time of attack… but the ones already at sea are more problematic.
US has enough antisub assets in the area to do it, though may may be able to get a shot or two off first (depending on if we have active tracks on them or not when things start), but that would start American involvment.
Romeo13 on June 6, 2008 at 11:39 AM
Thank you very much for the info.
So, if Israel strikes, there’s no way to avoid some sort of escalation involving the US – again. Therefore, it would seem: in for a penny, in for a pound would be the only option open. Where does it end?
OldEnglish on June 6, 2008 at 11:52 AM
It would really be up to Iran, which was my origional point.
If Iran retaliates in any meaningfull way, it could very quickly escalate to somthing out of their control.
Romeo13 on June 6, 2008 at 12:01 PM
It is not necessary to take out Iran’s nuclear facilities. All those uranium centrifuges require a LOT of electrical power — and those underground facilities require electrical power for ventilation and lights. Take out their electrical infrastructure — and their nuclear program comes to a HALT.
SunSword on June 6, 2008 at 12:14 PM
Militarily, I bow to the expertise of people such as yourself, but I feel that Iran, ideologically, would have to respond, otherwise their credibility would probably drop to zero in the Muslim world. They do seem to care more about their religion than reason, wanting to be the new “leading light” in their crusade against the West.
Given your input, I just hope that they are actively seeking nuclear weapons, since that would justify the trouble that seems to be on the horizon.
OldEnglish on June 6, 2008 at 12:27 PM
What on earth is wrong with this guy? He is a former chief of staff of the IDF and defense minister. Why is he babbling away??? By now everybody should know that the Iranians don’t respond to threats and outside coersion very well because of their low self esteem and khutspah, so I really don’t see the point in him saying things like that in public.
And by the way, recent polls indicate that Livni will win the Kadima primaries in a landslide… and in a general election, Netanyahu’s Likud would win.
AlexB on June 6, 2008 at 12:30 PM
One of the things that I have not been able to figure out, is why Iran keeps announcing these Nuclear advances at all?
From a geopolitical viewpoint, it would have been much better to quietly get fissionable material, and then join the nuclear club with a bang… ie a nuclear test.
The UN already prooved they had plans for a bomb (the laptop they confiscated), and by keeping their centrifuges secret they could easily have produced enough material…
The only thing I can think of is its all for internal political advantage. Keeping this as an issue takes the minds of the people off of their crappy economy.
A strike against nuclear plants would give DinnerJacket a way to continue with this as an issue… say he was going to rebuild… without being forced into more confrontation with the West…
Now, this is all based on folks being reasonable… which I don’t think they are. But Iran wants the bomb, and needs it before any serious confrontation with the West begins.
Romeo13 on June 6, 2008 at 12:50 PM
Obviously someone has not been doing enough talking to our enemies.
moxie_neanderthal on June 6, 2008 at 12:56 PM
Iran’s “navy,” such as it is, would not be a factor even if it didn’t cease to exist simultaneously with the nuke sites.
Akzed on June 6, 2008 at 1:04 PM
Probably just an elect me sound byte but could also be psyops.
Limerick on June 6, 2008 at 1:26 PM
Excellent,I hope it’s before HilRod drops out,
at the rate she’s going,it might be a while!
And,Me thinks imacrazyguyinadinnderjacket might
regret his daily rantings of”Little Satan” and
“Big Satan”!
Payback is gonna be a b!tch!
canopfor on June 6, 2008 at 1:33 PM
Top Hizzbbullah Commander from IRAN Caught in IRAQ.
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2008/ss_iraq0215_06_05.asp
roninacreage on June 6, 2008 at 1:35 PM
psyops.
Limerick on June 6,2008 at 1:26PM.
Limerick: Here ya go!
http://korea50.army.mil/history/factsheets/psychowar.shtml
canopfor on June 6, 2008 at 1:38 PM
Men ought either to be indulged or utterly destroyed, for if you merely offend them they take vengeance, but if you injure them greatly they are unable to retaliate, so that any injury done to a man ought to be such that vengeance cannot be feared.
- Niccolo Machiavelli
MB4 on June 6, 2008 at 2:10 PM
Yes, it must be pretty much all or nothing. I’m not such which one, but I know that it is one of those two.
MB4 on June 6, 2008 at 2:17 PM
a capella,
Iran has more to lose than anyone else by blocking the straits. WHich isn’t to say that they won’t do something stupid, but their economy would completely collapse if they did that.
exhelodrvr on June 6, 2008 at 2:22 PM
Similar was tried against North Vietnam. It was a waste of time. It resulted in a lot of American POW’s like John McCain and was ineffective.
MB4 on June 6, 2008 at 2:22 PM
Uh, you do know that it was Linebacker II that brought the North to the Peace table? Even Giap said so in his memoirs.
Romeo13 on June 6, 2008 at 2:26 PM
ronin,
“Our future, as well as Israels, depends on the right decision.”
But McCain isn’t conservative enough. How about if we don’t vote at all?
exhelodrvr on June 6, 2008 at 2:30 PM
Never seemed to change things on the ground in RVN. Not so as you would notice anyway. I think that they came to the peace table as they thought that they would make out well there, and they did.
MB4 on June 6, 2008 at 2:37 PM
Besides, do we want Iran at the “peace table” jaw, jaw, jawing and probably out jawing us?
MB4 on June 6, 2008 at 2:40 PM
Point was that punishing Air Power CAN bring pressure on a country…
Remember, there was a Peace treaty signed, and Viet Nam had relative peace for a year or so. It was AFTER the Dem Congress sold them down the river by passing a law that we would not support them at all, that the North invaded with conventional forces.
Linebacker II was, IMO, a success.
Another major difference is that N. VietNam was being supplied by an outside superpower… Iran? Unless Russia or China supports them won’t have that safe source of supply.
Romeo13 on June 6, 2008 at 3:01 PM
They also have a lot to lose by using a nuke. I’m not willing to bet that will deter them, plus oil prices are determined primarily by traders influencing the market, as I understand it. So, even a threat or temporary blockage skyrockets crude prices, which doesn’t hurt them as much as being unable to deliver product, although because they have restricted refining capacity, they have to import gasoline so a double whammy. That has to be included in their calculations. There would be global economic hysteria, that’s for sure. I’d just as soon get it over with and pay the piper now.
a capella on June 6, 2008 at 3:19 PM
I agree with the bringing pressure part, but sufficient pressure? That’s the $64 question. Probably not. Then would there be more pressure after they have time to adjust? And then more pressure still?
I think that it’s basically all or nothing. Not at all sure which, but I think that “half measures” would probably be counterproductive.
MB4 on June 6, 2008 at 3:46 PM
Target acquisition is much easier in the middle east, than in the Far East due to climate, and terrain.
We have MUCH better, more preise, munitions than Nam. The F-15 and F-22 can carry much larger payloads, of better weapons, and we have outstanding satelite imagery to do target selection.
Bridges, Manufacturing plants, Electricity generation, refinerys, oil production and transport… we could easily knock their entire economy on its rear end.
No bridges? Can’t transport food, or raw materials. No oil pipelines? Can’t transport oil. No electricity? No refrigeration or manufacturing….
Remember, that modern economies are actualy much more fragile than ever before… We crippled the German ability to wage war by bombing all the Ball bearing plants in WWII… think of what we could do now.
Romeo13 on June 6, 2008 at 4:35 PM
Iran vs. Israel?
Give me a mintute to get my recliner and some popcorn!
RMC1618 on June 6, 2008 at 4:46 PM
Now…what on earth would he be doing in such a dangerous place? Someone ask Obambi.
Jaibones on June 6, 2008 at 7:16 PM
How can they afford to buy it from us? We give them money.
Jaibones on June 6, 2008 at 7:20 PM
Speaking as a former Air Force weapon system officer on F-4E Phantom fighters, my somewhat informed opinion is that there are a few problems with the Israelis carrying out this mission.
The first problem is targeting. The Iranians aren’t as dumb as the Iraqis, who put all their atom bomb eggs in one reactor that could be taken out in one air strike. The Iranians have dispersed their atom bomb program. As I understand it, it is spread across hundreds of sites. How do you get reliable intelligence about the location of these sites, the nature of their construction, and their relative importance in the program? You would need some recent high-level defectors from the program to provide reliable targeting data.
The second problem is the massive size of the air campaign to strike these targets, once located. I’m reading three hundred sorties over three days. The Israeli Air Force has about four hundred fighters, but only a fraction of them can strike that far. They would need help to service all those targets from the USAF.
The third problem is access. The direct route from Israel to Iran flies over Iraq or Saudi Arabia. Of course, to fly over Iraq the Israelis would need US permission and cooperation. We control that air space. For lots of reasons, that’s unlikely to happen.
The Saudis are our allies, at least on paper though not in fact, which means that theoretically we should not turn a blind eye to Israelis flying strike packages over Saudi Arabia. Blatantly disrespecting the Saudis (not that there is anything wrong with that) to help the Israelis wage war against fellow Muslims would stir up the Muslim and Wahhabi pot.
However, it’s within the realm of possibility that the duplicitous Saudis could strike a secret deal to allow their hated Jewish enemies to strike their hated Shia enemies in Iran. The Saudi princes could pose as surprised and outraged at the incursion, however pleased with the outcome. They’re good at lying like that.
The fourth problem is the extreme range. It looks to me to be about 1000 miles, at least, as the crow flies from Israel to the centrifuge facility at Natanz, aka the Esfahan enrichment facility. Of course, the mission will be longer than this when you allow for an indirect route to targets deep inside Iran.
The F-15E Strike Eagle has a ferry range of 2,400 miles (3,840 kilometers) with conformal fuel tanks and three external fuel tanks. Israel has bought those conformal tanks, oddly enough. However, that’s FERRY range, not the range carrying heavy bombs. I’m guessing that adding a couple 2000 pound laser-guided bombs would reduce the range of the F-15Es to less than distance required to reach their targets. It seems obvious that these fighters would need to be air-refueled, optimally just outside the Iranian border. The range problem is worse with Israel’s 324 F-16s and 50 F-4Es.
Israel only has five tankers, B707 airframes roughly similar to the KC-135. If each tanker supported a flight of four fighters, that’s only twenty fighters Israel could project to Iran. Again, Israel would need US support in the form of tankers to fuel its airborne strike force.
The bottom line is that Israel can not successfully take out the Iranian atom bomb program by itself, so the Transportation Minister’s threat is an idle one. Israel can only succeed with help from the US. However, if we must strike Iran, Israeli help is a political handicap in our foreign relations with the bigoted Middle Eastern and European states. If we must strike Iran, we must leave Israel out of it.
We have better weapons with which to strike Iran than Israel. Our stealthy aircraft such as the B-2 and F-22 can traverse Iranian airspace with little fear from the 1970s-era technology Iranian fields to defend itself. And who knows what wing of secret strike aircraft we have stashed out in the mountains of Nevada, ready to make its combat debut? Our non-stealthy B-1s, F-15Es, and F-16s would fly over the smoking remains of the Iranian defenses.
We are also better positioned to strike Iran, with air bases in the neighboring countries of Afghanistan and Iraq.
Even though I am an advocate of air power, the gains it makes are transient unless followed up by a ground campaign to secure them. Without a ground campaign, we’ve only temporarily set back the Iranian atom bomb.
I think we can stop Iranian aggression short of a war. Iran is economically fragile. Already, our financial measures have taken a toll on them. We can bring Iran to its knees without bloodshed by simply stopping it from shipping its oil and/or importing gasoline.
We can also lend support, carefully hidden, to Iran’s resistance. They could use money, training, communications equipment, et al to support their movement. Perhaps we can redirect the Iranian shaped charges we capture in Iraq back into the hands of the Iranian resistance. Let the mullahs fear the IEDs they export to harm the Great Satan.
Rather than a hard strategy of military action that would polarize Iranians against us, we might profit more by pursuing a soft strategy of support for the disaffected Iranians who want to topple the mullahs and restore ties with America.
Tantor on June 6, 2008 at 8:59 PM
Assuming you’re not joking, let me handle this . . .
Because it IS a tossup at this point.
John McCain still needs to work out the kinks from his strategy as to how to tell conservatives such as myself the right pack of lies to get us to support him …
I’m still WAITING!
seanrobins on June 6, 2008 at 11:46 PM
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