Spencer: No, State doesn’t have a point
posted at 7:45 pm on June 3, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
Robert Spencer of the invaluable site Jihad Watch followed my post yesterday to the New York Times op-ed piece by P.W. Singer and Elina Noor recommending that the West stop using the term jihad. After a day of travel, Robert responds to Singer and Noor, reasserting his arguments about the State Department directive. While Singer and Noor predicate their belief that the term has been hijacked by radicals, Robert argues that the radical use is exactly how jihad has always been interpreted in Islam:
Here is the fundamental assumption of the new State Department guidelines, as well as of Singer and Noor: that the jihadists are twisting the meaning of jihad within Islam, appropriating for their own purposes what is in traditional Islam a spiritual struggle or a struggle for justice. Singer and Noor appear unaware that the term jihad fi sabeel Allah in the Qur’an and Islamic tradition refers specifically to warfare. They also probably do not realize that in Islamic theology justice is equated with Sharia, such that an “external fight for justice” is a fight to impose Islamic law, with its denial of the freedom of conscience and institutionalized discrimination against women and non-Muslims.
Al-Qaeda and other contemporary jihadists did not originate this definition of jihad from Ibn Arafa, a scholar of the Maliki school of Islamic jurisprudence, who explains that jihad is “fighting by a Muslim against a kaafir [unbeliever] (who does not have a treaty with the Muslims) to make the word of Allah the highest.” Nor did they originate the Shafi’i manual of Islamic law that was certified in 1991 by the clerics at Al-Azhar University, one of the leading authorities in the Islamic world, as a reliable guide to Sunni orthodoxy, which stipulates that “the caliph makes war upon Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians…until they become Muslim or pay the non-Muslim poll tax.”
Osama bin Laden did not whisper into the ear of Ibn Khaldun (1332-1406), the pioneering historian and sociologist, the idea that “in the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force.” In Islam, the person in charge of religious affairs is concerned with “power politics,” because Islam is “under obligation to gain power over other nations.”
It wasn’t al-Zawahri who inspired the great medieval Islamic theorist Ibn Taymiyya (1263-1328) to teach that “since lawful warfare is essentially jihad and since its aim is that the religion is God’s entirely and God’s word is uppermost, therefore according to all Muslims, those who stand in the way of this aim must be fought.”
And to those who will inevitably say, “Spencer is saying the jihadists are right!,” let me remind you that I didn’t originate this material either.
As usual, Robert makes a compelling argument. We aren’t going to change their minds about the meaning of the term jihad on the basis of a State Department memo or an American ad campaign, either. If they see the term jihad as meaning holy war against infidels, then our moral-relativist approach won’t convince them that it means “internal struggle for holiness”, or pretending that the terrorists don’t believe their quest to be holy.
Fair enough. But I still see what Singer and Noor mean as well. If we use jihad to describe these acts, it sounds as if we’re recognizing those attacks as part of a holy war, or put another way, that we accept the construct of the terrorists. Perhaps it would be more helpful to argue that we don’t accept that any war is holy, especially when people target non-combatants (in our estimation, at least). Regardless of how we define jihad, the terrorists and their sympathizers hear us essentially endorsing the holy nature of their fight.
In the end, it won’t make much difference whether we stop using the term or not. It’s an interesting academic exercise. Instead, as Robert implores, State should be focusing on more important steps they can take against radical Islam:
Instead, State could be sponsoring positive presentations of the freedom of conscience, freedom of speech, equality of rights of all people, and other principles that many Muslims accept today, but which are denied by Sharia. State could, in other words, be offering an alternative to Sharia — not by way of a verbal frontal assault, but by attacking the elements of Sharia that many Muslims as well as non-Musims reject. Instead, it is reinforcing Sharia by pretending that there is a positive jihad that is not threatening to unbelievers.
In fact, that might be a good way to confront Iran as well — by establishing communication to the Iranian people in ways that allow them to hear and see information that their government denies them.










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Agreed.
I hate to go off-topic, but an acquaintance of Obama’s claims he used to oppose the Israeli “occupation” and support “Palestinian rights”.
amerpundit on June 3, 2008 at 7:52 PM
State and a the whole nation will soon learn all about jihad when the new administration takes office.
wepeople on June 3, 2008 at 7:52 PM
Good follow up, Ed.
It might seem like it is just semantics, or an academic exercise, but may I recommend a book? I’m sure you’re very busy, but if you have the time, Andy McCarthy’s Williful Blindness is really very useful in this regard. I think trying to frame this conflict in ways that are suitable to our sensibilities is a (small or big) part of the problem. And Mr. McCarthy does a brilliant job of spelling this out with his account of the prosecution of the 1993 WTC bombers. FWIW.
VolMagic on June 3, 2008 at 7:53 PM
Drop the terms jihadi/jihadist and the word terrorist. Call them what they are…Islamists. We’re not fighting Islam the religion, we’re fighting Islamism, the political-military movement.
flipflop on June 3, 2008 at 7:58 PM
Winning wars involves killing and marginalizing the enemy, not meaningless unilateral rhetorical trickery.
FloatingRock on June 3, 2008 at 7:59 PM
Mosques are plenty, graveyards are plenty, but morals and whiskey are scarce. The Koran does not permit Mohammedans to drink. Their natural instinct do not permit them to be moral.
- Mark Twain
MB4 on June 3, 2008 at 7:59 PM
Would we refer to klansmen as “crusaders” because they claim to be Christians?
apollyonbob on June 3, 2008 at 8:01 PM
If Spencer says it, who am I to argue?
But frankly, they are thugs and terrorists, I have a limited vocabulary when talking about these guys.
right2bright on June 3, 2008 at 8:02 PM
The islamists will probably succeed in damaging us significantly, if not outright winning and taking over. Imagine if Iran was able to muster up 2 nukes: one to hit Tel Aviv (which I think is inevitable if we don’t stop them soon), and one launched to detonate at 100,000ft over NYC.
The NYC bomb would take out much of our ability to communicate nationwide, especially if it’s an enhanced electromagnetic pulse (EMP) device. It could reduce all computers, telecom equipment, electronic devices, cars, trains, planes, etc., within a 90 mile radius permanently out of service, plus would shut down the northeaster power grid (and cascading possibly nationwide).
Considering the US response to the WTC attack of nearly 50% of Americans 7 years later is to retreat from Iraq and blame ourselves, such a major attack would have devastating results.
Any comments?
stonemeister on June 3, 2008 at 8:05 PM
Semantics is everything. I would argue that until we can detatch ourselves from our desire to appear as if we know ‘the truth’, and ‘accept the construct of the terrorists’, we will always be playing the most American of games – “catch up” (hat tip – Rising Sun)
LimeyGeek on June 3, 2008 at 8:06 PM
I posted this in the other thread but it’s still just as valid: Efforts to unlink Jihadists from the ideology that drives their actions makes as much sense as trying to unlink Nazi’s from Nazism.
If the allies had decided to call Nazi’s “perverters of Nazism” during WWII, how much influence do the proponents of newspeak here think it would have had on Hitler and Nazi Germany?
FloatingRock on June 3, 2008 at 8:07 PM
No they are not. They are nothing more than orthodox Muslims.
Any Muslim who is not killing non-believers is Kaafir…
Tim Burton on June 3, 2008 at 8:07 PM
We don’t define Jihad. The followers of Mohammad do. This ain’t hard Ed. To Islam it is an eternal holy war until Dar as Islam reigns supreme
mred on June 3, 2008 at 8:08 PM
Whatever one chooses to call them, jihadists, terrorists, misguided souls or poopy-boos, they are just following Islamic teachings.
2:10 Disbelievers are diseased.
2:99 Disbelievers are evil people.
2:104 For disbelievers is a painful doom.
2:171 Disbelievers are deaf, dumb, and blind.
3:28 Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference of believers.
3:73 Don’t believe anyone who is not a Muslim.
3:48 Don’t be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you.
4:89 Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them.
4:63 Oppose those who refuse to follow Muhammad.
4:101The disbelievers are an open enemy to you.
4:144 Do not choose disbelievers as friends.
5:51 Don’t take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them.
5:51 Jews and Christians are losers.
5:60 Allah turned unbelievers into apes and swine.
5:59 Jews and Christians are evil people.
9:5 Slay the disbelievers wherever you find them.
MB4 on June 3, 2008 at 8:09 PM
Al-Qaeda and other contemporary jihadists did not originate this definition of jihad from Ibn Arafa, a scholar of the Maliki school of Islamic jurisprudence, who explains that jihad is “fighting by a Muslim against a kaafir [unbeliever] (who does not have a treaty with the Muslims) to make the word of Allah the highest.”
hmmm….
Drunk Report on June 3, 2008 at 8:10 PM
You’re technically correct, but you’ll never “sell” a war against a religion. You can, however, sell a war against an ideology.
flipflop on June 3, 2008 at 8:10 PM
Mohammed said the inner struggle of a mans soul is the Big Jihad, destroying the societies of the world for Islam is the Little Jihad. I’m surprised Robert did not point that out.
I see there is an overwhelming need to portray the Mujahadine as “radical, extremist,not true Islam, etc. etc.”
Ignorance or denial?
BL@KBIRD on June 3, 2008 at 8:16 PM
I agree with Robert 100%. I would also suggest that the State Department’s very act of even issuing a statement like this makes them seem weak to the Jihadists, as well as to the Muslim groups that “aided” them in creating it.
Connie on June 3, 2008 at 8:18 PM
I think we should just leave them alone.
IF we leave them alone, they’ll leave us alone, right?
IF we leave them alone, they’ll like us again, right? Like they did when Clinton was President.
IF we leave them alone, they won’t kill our citizens again, right? Remember the women and children and fathers and sons from the WTC and the Pentagon?
OTOH,
IF they are DEAD, they won’t hurt us again, and on the plus side, they will have all those virgins to attend to…
PC run amok….
originalpechanga on June 3, 2008 at 8:19 PM
In brief, it feels like “déjà vu all over again.” As columnist Diana West puts it, “Nearly six years after September 11 — nearly six years after first visiting the Islamic Center and proclaiming ‘Islam is peace’ — Mr. Bush has learned nothing.” But we now harbor fewer hopes than in 2001 that he still can learn, absorb, and reflect an understanding of the enemy’s Islamist nature.
- Daniel Pipes
MB4 on June 3, 2008 at 8:19 PM
backed by this so called religion!!
jerrytbg on June 3, 2008 at 8:20 PM
By Diana West:
Imam Bush strikes again
“There Imam Bush goes again. “I am astonished by President Bush when he claims there is nothing in the Quran that justifies jihad violence in the name of Islam,” jailed Islamic scholar Abu Qatada said under similar circumstances almost six years ago. “Is he some kind of Islamic scholar? Has he ever actually read the Quran?
No. He’s just leader of the Free World — a Free World that has become less free and more dhimmified on his severely myopic watch.”
MB4 on June 3, 2008 at 8:21 PM
Actually, Hugh Fitzgerald does discuss this point in the comment section of Robert’s post at JW.
Connie on June 3, 2008 at 8:23 PM
Ed,
Another point: Do you think what Mohammedans are doing in Minnesota isn’t related to jihad?
mred on June 3, 2008 at 8:24 PM
Spencer’s argument is flawed. It sounds like a retort but it really isn’t. He cites a few theoreticians of Islam with an implicit assumption their version of Islam is mainstream. I have no idea if he’s right, but I’m sure I know millions of people who say he’s wrong.
Basically he once again reiterates that there are people who interpret Islam badly. Well, the State doesn’t dispute that. I have no problem with saying that a literate interpretation of Quran yields pretty horrible things. I think the same is true about Christianity or Judaism. My own view is that the Christians are better than Muslims because they are more secualr, not because they are more Christian or less Muslim.
There is a gap pretty wide between arguing literal theology and culture. If you look at the former, it’s every bit as Muslim to forcibly convert a kafir as it is Christian to stone an infidel wife. There is a strong argument, however, that those who call themselves Christians are overwhelmingly opposed to stoning women. I think an equally compelling argument is to be made that most of Muslims across the globe have no desire to forcibly convert anyone to anything.
freevillage on June 3, 2008 at 8:24 PM
I agree. I use the term Islamist to refer to all of the parties with interests in political Islam and the term jihadist to refer to the portion of Islamists who engage in or support violence. Just like WWII in Europe was largely a war against the ideology of Nazism, today we are at war with the ideology of Islamism. Nazi = Islamist, Nazi soldier = Jihadist. We don’t have to kill all of the Islamists to win but we have to kill a lot of the Jihadists and marginalize Islamists as a whole.
Ed, unless you can demonstrate why Mr. Spencer is wrong when he points out that jihadists are indeed jihadists, not by his standards but by those of Islam, any effort to unilaterally redefine the term is purely an exercise of PC newspeak which is meaningless to the conflict.
FloatingRock on June 3, 2008 at 8:25 PM
I can’t stand watching Robert Spencer because he always comes off like such a great big tool. Not only that, but the guy is a dangerous religious fanatic that would plunge the US into an endless, unwinnable war against Iran, while gas prices soared into the double digits.
John on June 3, 2008 at 8:26 PM
Basically Spencer uses Islamic text, jurisprudence and thinkers to show that the Jihadists are theologically correct.
mred on June 3, 2008 at 8:28 PM
stonemeister on June 3, 2008 at 8:05 PM
Well… yea… Your #’s are a little off,
alt: 65-120 nm
5-10 Kilo ton, like the one the Koreans tested a while back…oops …no that was a dud..riiight!
Most everything else….good guess.
jerrytbg on June 3, 2008 at 8:30 PM
John on June 3, 2008 at 8:26 PM
He’s not a dangerous religious fanatic: but he does use the words and writings of some, to show how they align with traditional and mainstream Islam.
deesine on June 3, 2008 at 8:32 PM
Float, exactly how can we tell the difference between just an Islamist and a Jihadist? The Jihadists won’t show themselves, and hide behind (willing) non-combatants.
stonemeister on June 3, 2008 at 8:32 PM
Would you care to explain what makes you think Robert Spencer is a religious fanatic?
Connie on June 3, 2008 at 8:34 PM
I was talking about a 5-10 KT weapon, whose effects would be somewhat attenuated at 65-120nm. You’re referencing a high-EMP/neutron bomb over central US to bring us back to the stone age (it would). That bomb would have an explosive yield of 20-50 KT, but an equivalent yield in EMP to a 1-3 MT thermonuclear (hydrogen) weapon, and I really doubt Iran has or could develop one of these.
stonemeister on June 3, 2008 at 8:35 PM
stonemeister on June 3, 2008 at 8:32 PM
another way to put it:
They are all, hard core, enablers or consenters…period
jerrytbg on June 3, 2008 at 8:35 PM
Can you substantiate your fantasy with any facts? I’ve been reading Jihad Watch for years and have never read anything from Mr. Spencer that would even hint at your conclusions.
FloatingRock on June 3, 2008 at 8:36 PM
If you don’t address THE PROBLEM and only address the symptom, the symptom will keep recurring… forever.
Islam needs a reformation. It may not have it for a century, or more, but until it does, there will be terror.
Mecca and Medina. Assyria. Persia. Barbary pirates. Only the tools are new.
Oh, and the obvious “freevillage” post says:
We’re getting that, freevillage, we’re getting that.
Spencer has an idea, having, you know, studied the subject with considerable energy. You, not so much.
I like your twist on the equivocation, where you admit that the two things you compare aren’t equal, but you weigh them as if they were anyway. Well, maybe “like” isn’t the right word.
Merovign on June 3, 2008 at 8:37 PM
As Sam Harris quite convincingly shows that Christian nuts are theologically correct. Again, I personally totally agree with both points. However, this is not how a lot of Muslims look at it. That they are logically wrong is of no relevance, because the State basically talks about people’s frame of mind.
I would argue the Bible quite directly teaches people to be immoral and deaf to suffering. The very idea of Hell, an infinite punishment for a finite number of sins, is the most abhorrent and cruel idea that a sick mind could imagine. I think that upon a sober reflection any reasonable and intellectually honest person would conclude that.
However, I do know for a fact that lots of people choose to ignore this or spin it in the most illogical way. I can smirk at their intellectual cowardice but I can’t seriously pretend that, say, a maniac who tortures people for fun is directly a product of modern Christianity. Because while what he does may be logically consistent with the literatec interpretation of the Bible, the _Christian culture as we know it now_ unequivocally condemns such behavior.
freevillage on June 3, 2008 at 8:37 PM
I’m afraid that, if we really want to survive, this thinking might be necessary. Folks, this can get incredibly ugly…we’re talking about potentially a BILLION enemies, each of whom might be willing to kill us, our families, etc, no matter what we want to do.
Any way out there to discredit the Quran? That seems to be their rulebook of hatred.
stonemeister on June 3, 2008 at 8:38 PM
I would note that you have yet to demonstrate your intellectual superiority. So if I were I’d wait a while before getting all sarcastic on me. You could be humiliated.
freevillage on June 3, 2008 at 8:38 PM
freevillage on June 3, 2008 at 8:37 PM
Are you an idiot in real life too?
mred on June 3, 2008 at 8:41 PM
I won’t debate someone like Mr. Spencer on Islamic theology…he’s probably forgotten more on the topic than most Muslims will ever know.
Just the same, I think he misses the point here a little in that State’s argument was that calling a jihadi a jihadi was honoring them.
I still prefer the term Islamist, drawing a parallel with fascists and communists. The only difference being that a jihadist is an armed Islamist, and is a legitimate military target.
flipflop on June 3, 2008 at 8:42 PM
You can put lipstick on a pig, and it’s still a pig.
Similarly, you can call jihad “struggle,” “war,” “peace,” “Jabberwocky”, …or whatever: but it’s still jihad. Those who don’t understand this are under the delusion that language imparts some kind of attributes to the thing being described!!!
You can no more make jihad into something else by renaming it than you can make a lead baloon fly by calling it an airplane.
landlines on June 3, 2008 at 8:43 PM
Are there two Robert Spencer’s?
MB4 on June 3, 2008 at 8:43 PM
As usual, Robert makes a compelling argument.
And who wants to argue islam with THAT guy? :-)
Tony737 on June 3, 2008 at 8:44 PM
When it comes to Islam I will let Robert do the detective work and I will stand watch in the street.
Holmes on June 3, 2008 at 8:46 PM
You watch way too much Futureweapons/History Channel.
Seriously, if the Soviet We’ll-Spend-Billions-Into-Oblivion Friggin Empire can’t get it together enough to end our way of life, I wouldn’t worry about Tehran getting a multi-kiloton EMP warhead 100,000 feet above us. It’s not like you can stick that in a balloon and float it across the ocean. You know? Sneaking a nuke via ship or car, okay. Yeah, I see that threat.
They’re not going to send America back to the stone age with a single strike.
apollyonbob on June 3, 2008 at 8:47 PM
Really John, your statement was out of line and has no basis in fact.
I generally agree with Spencer, and I appreciate the work that he does. Actually I’m not much of a reader, but I certainly bought his books and read them cover to cover. However, I disagree with him here.
I don’t think that the State Department is claiming that there is a ‘positive’ jihad. I think what they are saying is that the term ‘jihad’ puts it in a religious context. Even as extreme as it might be, Muslims might think it is an attack against their religion rather than what the people are doing. ‘Terrorists’ is just fine because that term doesn’t have anything to do with religion.
The new term that considered their terrorism as a definite sin in Islam would cut at the heart of what they are doing. . . and take the sting out of it as some religious calling that the terrorists are claiming. In the end it is semantics. And it certainly does matter.
I get angry when ‘pro-lifers’ are called ‘anti-abortion’ when they wouldn’t DARE call ‘pro-choicers’ ‘pro-abortionists’. It’s like saying pro-choice = pro baby killing. Nobody is pro-abortion, but they call pro-lifers ‘anti-abortionists’ in the biased media.
So semantics matters, but I think de-coupling the term with anything to do with their religion (regardless of what they call themselves) is a good idea to consider in the propaganda war.
ThackerAgency on June 3, 2008 at 8:48 PM
stonemeister on June 3, 2008 at 8:35 PM
Granted… many variables involved…
But my point is that a series, at a higher alt then what you indicated with an overlapping effect would insure that we would be sent back to pre Civil War tech. And when you consider how many ISLAMISTS are already incountry….woooow… I for one am terrified at the prospects.
jerrytbg on June 3, 2008 at 8:48 PM
No Booze In Basra or America Making Iraq Safe For Sharia Law
Mister Ghost on June 3, 2008 at 8:48 PM
Robert knows Islam even better than I know Guns and Gold. And let me tell you nobody knows Guns and Gold better than Tuco.
Tuco on June 3, 2008 at 8:49 PM
That’s not for me to decide but in my opinion it’s not our responsibility to make that determination; the responsibility falls squarely on the shoulders of Muslims worldwide. If they relinquish that authority and allow the threat to continue unchecked then the responsibility will fall to us, if we wish to survive, to take appropriate measures to ensure our own safety. In that event, since we are not as qualified to pinpoint the Jihadists in the midst of the greater Islamic community, largely because it is difficult, dangerous and time consuming for us to infiltrate their society, our efforts will necessarily be less targeted in nature.
FloatingRock on June 3, 2008 at 8:54 PM
Don’t you even read the news? Iran has the Shahab-4 missile, which is nuclear capable, and can easily be launched from a cargo ship just off our east coast, and with a range of 1,300-1,500 kilometers, it could do the job.
Does someone have a link to an article about our vulnerability to EMP strikes?
stonemeister on June 3, 2008 at 8:54 PM
Wow, does that statement fly in the face of ‘love thy neighbor as yourself’. You aren’t a Christian are you? If you are, please post chapter and verse that validates your assertions.
docdave on June 3, 2008 at 8:56 PM
OK, I did it myself. Here’s an article from Jane’s Defense News.
stonemeister on June 3, 2008 at 8:58 PM
apollyonbob on June 3, 2008 at 8:47 PM
The weapon discribed in this article is about 3 years out of date. They just need enough fisionable material for a few over our major metro areas along our coasts. Try also looking here for more and I’ll try to find the article about Irans missile test for this kind of weapon, I think it was in JanesDW.
jerrytbg on June 3, 2008 at 8:59 PM
Sorry, bad links, dude.
stonemeister on June 3, 2008 at 9:03 PM
freevillage -
I don’t need to do anything, you’ve established your (lack of) intellect MORE than convincingly.
Oh, and I actually addressed what you SAID rather than just a lame, pathetic, content-free personal attack – and a non-committal one at that.
Those who have been around here for a while and read your rambling, equivocating, ignorant posts can judge for themselves.
Merovign on June 3, 2008 at 9:05 PM
stonemeister on June 3, 2008 at 8:58 PM
you beat me to it,well not quite. The article I was thinking of was how Iran’s test of detonating at high alt.
jerrytbg on June 3, 2008 at 9:05 PM
oh really.. try it now, here and here
jerrytbg on June 3, 2008 at 9:08 PM
Here ya go.
stonemeister on June 3, 2008 at 9:09 PM
umm for some reason they won’t post I tried it twice now.
jerrytbg on June 3, 2008 at 9:10 PM
Don’t put in an extra htpp://
stonemeister on June 3, 2008 at 9:12 PM
stonemeister on June 3, 2008 at 9:09 PM
that was one of them but Janes has one about how Iran tested a missile they could detonate at high alt.
jerrytbg on June 3, 2008 at 9:13 PM
I try to blame my shotcommings on vista
jerrytbg on June 3, 2008 at 9:14 PM
Yeah, there was a lot of people that said that Y2K was going to ruin us, “leaving technology comparable to that available in the 1800s” …
I mean come on. 1800s. Seriously. You don’t detect any hyperbole, any scare tactics, at all in those articles?
apollyonbob on June 3, 2008 at 9:15 PM
Hey stone, in any case I hope we opened up a few eyes.
jerrytbg on June 3, 2008 at 9:17 PM
Read up on it, pal. Such a nuke would effectively wipe out every integrated circuit, computer chip, high voltage cable, transformer, etc., just go down the list. Anything with a semiconductor, coil, electromagnet would be fried.
That includes our capacity to build replacements. It would take decades to replace the infrastructure.
stonemeister on June 3, 2008 at 9:18 PM
apollyonbob on June 3, 2008 at 9:15 PM
I worked around nukes…EMP is a byproduct and a very scary one at that. Ignore the warning at your own peril.
jerrytbg on June 3, 2008 at 9:20 PM
I sure hope so. This is the most serious real threat that any civilization has ever faced — even greater than the soviet threat of just a few years ago. We’re talking about our very survival, and it cannot be countered with Mutually Assured Destruction.
stonemeister on June 3, 2008 at 9:20 PM
stonemeister on June 3, 2008 at 9:18 PM
I don’t know about decades… but a long time. agreed.
jerrytbg on June 3, 2008 at 9:22 PM
Muthuswamy completed a statistical analysis of the Koran, Sira, and Hadith for The Center for the Study of Political Islam, and found the following about “Jihad”:
Statistical analysis of the trilogy revealed that 97% of references to “jihad” relate to war and a mere 3% to the concept of “inner struggle.”
So, Jihad is an inner struggle 3% of the time, and warfare 97% of the time. Guess I can safely assume when a follower of Islam is waging Jihad, that 97% of the time, I had better be ready to defend myself.
djtnt on June 3, 2008 at 9:22 PM
Eight years later, and what’s up with the WTC crater? Need I say more?
stonemeister on June 3, 2008 at 9:26 PM
stonemeister on June 3, 2008 at 9:26 PM
point taken…however that’s political. My fear is…how many jihadists are incountry.
jerrytbg on June 3, 2008 at 9:29 PM
Ed:
I think you’re still missing the key, here. It isn’t that terrorists use “jihad” in this way that is the problem, it is that Islam itself defines jihad this way. Regardless of the terrorists, Islam equates “jihad” with war on the unbelievers. What State is doing is ignoring the elephant in the living room: the problem isn’t how terrorists define jihad, the problem is Islam itself.
irishspy on June 3, 2008 at 9:31 PM
irishspy on June 3, 2008 at 9:31 PM
YES
jerrytbg on June 3, 2008 at 9:34 PM
I apologize for slinging mud, but it’s getting frustrating watching otherwise reasonable people act like abused wives trying to satisfy the angry ayatollahs, muftis, sheiks, and imams of the world. It’s not going to happen. If you can get them to fear you…
Beagle on June 3, 2008 at 9:36 PM
I don’t think Robert has ever lost an argument. He’s the man.
My late Grandfather use to refer to “them” as Mohammedans.
Zorro on June 3, 2008 at 9:49 PM
Not really. In the jihadists’ minds, those who seek to weaken jihad in Islam are wrong and worthy of death. As far as the larger Muslim world goes, if imams and mullahs decide to downplay violent jihad, it will only be because they’ve discovered that political jihad suits their purposes better. But the goal remains the same.
Which is precisely what the Islamic propagandists want. If they say terrorism is unislamic, then Islam becomes the religion of peace to the unsavvy American/Westerner. He falls back to sleep and the soft jihad continues with creeping shari’a.
In Islam, even if no one dies, there will always be a war against non-Muslims. It has been so since Muhammad.
Connie on June 3, 2008 at 9:55 PM
Ed as ever you are totally wrong on this issue.
The term Islamists implies (by the -ism suffix) that ‘Islamism is a twentieth century political ideology, which it isn’t. The partial lull of jihad between roughly 1800-1960 is the basis of this claim. In fact Muslims are commanded to lie low when they do not have the means of carrying out jihad.
The term Islamo-fascists is even worse because in implying that the jihadists are simply fascists/Nazis you are implicitly endorsing the liberal presupposition that there are no enemies (only friends) – except of course for fascists and Nazis.
Therefore, according to this logic, the only way to condemn third world enemies bent on the destruction of the West is to pretend that they are fascists/Nazis which they clearly are not (despite the obvious parallels).
Pretending that fascism has something to do with the command of a 1,300 year old religion to slay the unbelievers is ludicrous. This obfuscation of labels and meaning is unhelpful to say the least. Its also dishonest and betrays a remarkable imprecision of language.
Also lets not anyone forget that these are not just Islamists we’re dealing with here but radical Islamists. (Yikes!)
Good for Spencer.
aengus on June 3, 2008 at 10:06 PM
mujahid
jihadist
takfirist
salafist
wahhabist
These terms are appropriate
blatantblue on June 3, 2008 at 10:07 PM
Not at all! We’re certainly not fighting Islam the religion but Islam the religion is fighting us. We’re fighting the overt terrorist component, those who engage in quittal (terrorism, literally means combat) while moderate ‘Islamists’ tread all over us.
For instance theres been only one
Islamicextremist terrorist attack against Britain but everyone here agrees that Britain is on the verge of being conquered by Islam. So why is that? If you care to follow your thoughts beyond that point you’ll soon figure out thats it not just a terrorist problem or an Islamist problem but in fact an Islam problem.Or ask yourself why is the world’s most famous ex-Talib Hamid Karzai pining for his old friends the Taliban to be his soldiers?
aengus on June 3, 2008 at 10:17 PM
mujahid and jihadist are appropriate terms. takfirist is a dishonest, inappropriate term. salafist and wahhabist are reductionist, and thus inappropriate, terms.
aengus on June 3, 2008 at 10:18 PM
What is the aim of Islam’s various forms of “jihad”?
A global theocratic tyranny.
Is there any way that any method (jihad) of achieving that nightmare goal should be encouraged (…by minimizing it in any way)?
And is there ANY reason it should NOT be criticized -and fought- to its oblivion?
The “inner struggle” form of (“Greater”) jihad is just trying to stoke up the Mohammedan believer in order to make them strong enough to perform the outer (“lesser”) jihad.
Both mean us no good.
And this struggle deserves to be dumped on the ashheap of history.
As one more dismal, intolerant, hellish, despotic ideology.
profitsbeard on June 3, 2008 at 10:27 PM
dishonest? LOL aengus
blatantblue on June 3, 2008 at 10:29 PM
No, I’m not a Christian. I’m a rational critically thinking person. I have already stated that the very idea of Hell is as immoral as it gets. But that’s not the point of the thread.
You can argue literal theology all you want. It means little if you’re genuinely curious about what actually drives people’s behavior. And when it comes to religion, it’s almost never about the literal wording, but always about some paraphrase that people heard from someone else.
You have to be either stupid or blind or naive to think that while there are at least several if not many legitimate Christian denominations all claiming they are Bible based, yet there’s a single interpretation of Quaran.
freevillage on June 3, 2008 at 10:32 PM
That’s the Bush doctrine in a nutshell. Its not for us in the West to defend ourselves from the assault against our civillisation. Brave Muslims must renounce terrorism connected with their faith, reform Islam, turn Iraq into a functioning democratic polity, turn the moon into cheese, find the lost city of El Dorado etc. etc. Meanwhile is there any back up plan in case moderate Muslims do not come through for us or is our very survival hinged on the actions of Muslims? Are we that passive?
aengus on June 3, 2008 at 10:41 PM
I’m not sure why you’re laughing out loud blatantblue. Takfir means forbidden in Islam. Jihad is not only not forbidden in Islam it is an incumbent and solemn duty placed on every believer according (allegedly) to a revelation by Allah to Mohammed as detailed in the Koran. To pretend the exact opposite, as the State Department does, is not only dishonest but shockingly so.
aengus on June 3, 2008 at 10:46 PM
In that case all mainstream scholars of Islam are either stupid or blind or naive.
Yet freevillage admitted total ignorance of the topic earlier on this thread. The very idea that one primitive religion is not interpreted in the same way as another is incomprehensible to him.
aengus on June 3, 2008 at 10:50 PM
You could be the finest critical thinker on the planet but if you are totally ignorant of the Bile and the Koran and the way these holy texts have historically been interpreted then you have nothing to add.
aengus on June 3, 2008 at 10:51 PM
Bile=Bible
Not a Freudian slip I assure you!
aengus on June 3, 2008 at 10:53 PM
takfir is the act of declaring a group of people as kuffar, aengus.
takfirists believe that the Muslim ‘ummah has been weakened due to deviation from true Islamic practice, and that Muslims are to wage war on kuffar.
Sheikh Zawahiri is a Takfirist himself.
Therefore, Takfirist is an appropriate term for these people.
blatantblue on June 3, 2008 at 11:25 PM
Yes I know that but the reason a group of people are declared kuffar (unbelievers) is because they have said or done something takfir (forbidden) according to the doctrines of Islam.
Jihad is not takfir. It is central to Islam.
Says who?
Like fun it is. The ummah don’t take their fatwas from the State Department.
aengus on June 3, 2008 at 11:40 PM
“No people in history have ever survived, who thought they could protect their freedom by making themselves inoffensive to their enemies.” – Dean Acheson
Lunkinator on June 3, 2008 at 11:50 PM
I didn’t admit any ignorance. :)) If I didn’t word what I meant to say well enough, I can correct it. Your second sentence has zero meaning.
Are you saying that Quran has universally been interpreted the same way? Please illustrate that by comparing/pointing to equivalence between a modern Turk, Osama bin Laden and a mainstream muslim from Norway.
freevillage on June 3, 2008 at 11:54 PM
Yes I am saying that.
Very clever. You’re basically setting up false dichotomies between Turkish secularism (Attaturk having abandoned Islam for Turkish nationalism), al-Qaeda (who actually do understand and practice Islam violently) and a Muslim community in a Northern European country practising taqqiya.
Is that your diverse interpretation of the Koran? One part heresy, one part actualisation and one part bulls**t?
Not exactly Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran and Calvinist if you ask me.
aengus on June 4, 2008 at 12:14 AM
freevillage
How is the idea of Hell “as immoral as it gets”? The idea that if you are a bad person, you will be punished for it is “immoral”? That makes no sense. The core idea of morality, whether explicitly religious or not, is that an individual will be called to account on his behavior. Hell is the ad infinitum of this core idea. It may not be a very useful conception, but it is hardly immoral. What? Hitler gets to party in heaven with Martin Luther King and Mother Teresa (pace, Hitchens)? Does that make more sense?
Furthermore, the Bible is explicit in that the judgement for who goes to Hell is entirely in the hands of God. He doesn’t ask you to help out sending people to Hell as does Allah, in fact He enjoins against it: “Vengeance is mine sayeth The Lord.” “Judge not lest ye be judged.” “He who calls his brother a fool is in danger of Hell’s fire.” Where do you get your fantasia about Christianity endorsing sadism in light of these famous passages? I agree that the idea of doing bad things to bad people has a certain Pulp Fiction kind of appeal, but that lies completely outside the framework of Christianity.
And furthermore, Christianity is more defined by the New Testament than the Old. I defy you to identify a single passage in the New Testament where Jesus endorses violence against unbelievers as does Mohammed. Don’t offer up crufty Old Testament stuff.
In sum, Jesus is the moral exemplar for Christianity (healing the wound of the Centurion who arrested him) whereas Mohammed is the moral exemplar of Islam (strike at the neck of the unbeliever).
Christianity has a passive eschatology — i.e. “this stuff will happen”. Islam has an active eschatology — i.e. “you should do this stuff”. While each might have a certain lack of appeal, the two are hardly the same.
shazbat on June 4, 2008 at 12:17 AM
Yep, when we bombed Germany and Japan, we were not just aiming at Hitler and Tojo.
Johan Klaus on June 4, 2008 at 12:25 AM
Oh, I see. So you’re going to defend the idea that there’s only one kind of Islam by assuming the right to be an arbiter of who gets to called the real Muslim. Well, that’s circular reasoning. Besides, if your ultimate point is that there’s only a small group who are real Muslims and all of them are nuts then substantively you have no argument with State. However, their way to handle politics is much better.
My Turkish friends from the graduate school certainly didn’t think of themselves as being secular. Neither did a guy from Morocco, who went to Mosque regularly to pray, and who thought that whether or not his bride and eventual wife wore a scarf was inconsequential. All of them thought they were Muslims, they thought they had a set of beliefs directly inspired by Quran, and those beliefs in their mind guided their behavior. And it is in that sense that a claim that every Muslim is at their core driven by the literal interpretation of Quran is utter nonsense.
freevillage on June 4, 2008 at 12:37 AM
freevillage,
According to early to contemporary Mulism mainstream scholars there’s only one interpretation of Islam.
I’m not arguing that everyone acts upon it. If the world’s 1.2 billion Muslims were engaged in violent jihad it would be obvious.
But did your friends offer any non-mainstream interpretations of Islam that go against the accepted theological doctrine? It sounds like they just called themselves Muslims and kept their heads down.
By taking you (a non-Mulsim) as their friend they are most certainly not following the tenets set out in their holy book.
I’m off now but would be happy to debate you in the future.
aengus on June 4, 2008 at 12:47 AM
Just to note I am talking about the content of a religious doctrine and the traditional interpretation of said doctrine, not whether or not freevillage’s friends decide to follow it to a T.
aengus on June 4, 2008 at 12:51 AM
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