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Time to return to the first principles of conservatism?

posted at 12:40 pm on May 30, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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With so many people writing about what ails conservatism, and so much disagreement, the basic tenets of conservatism seem to be overlooked. In attaching an ever-broader policy base to the first principles of conservatism, we have not added to our base but have increased our opposition. In fighting on the flanks, we have ignored the center, and as a result, have lost momentum through poor definition and irresponsible governance.

What is the first principle of conservatism? Limited government. Our founders understood this, which is why they tightly constrained the jurisdiction of the federal government in the Constitution. Henry David Thoreau famously wrote “That government is best which governs least”, and that encapsulates what has been the overarching philosophy of conservatism as applied to governance. Furthermore, it exists in opposition to and as a counterbalance for the competing philosophy of socialism, which postulates that government improves as it governs more.

These days, however, so-called conservatives in government appear more inclined to act on the latter philosophy than the former. Those running as conservatives from either party vote for ever-increasing federal roles in education, agriculture, the arts, and especially health care and retirement planning, despite the increasing deficits that the federal government has racked up. Entitlement programs will have a catastrophic collapse in the future, and instead of hitting the brakes, conservatives and progressives alike keep hitting the accelerator.

One might think that conservatives would at least recognize the perils of corruption in a bloated and overbearing federal government, distant from the oversight of individuals. Think again. The pork-barrel spending increased when so-called conservatives took power, pushed in no small measure by efforts to woo lobbyists who rely on increasing federal power and spending in order to get paid.

How did conservatives lose their way? They focused on everything but the core principle of limited government. Issues like gay marriage and mottos on coins took precedence. It’s not to say that there aren’t other issues that should concern the citizenry, but it is a matter of priorities, and the first priority of the “conservatives” who ran DC from 2001-2006 was re-election and spoils, not reducing government to a manageable and affordable level.

Take gay marriage as one example. In relation to the first principle of conservatism, why should this even be on the conservative radar screen, especially as a national issue? Instead of drumbeats for federal constitutional amendments, we should have insisted that government get out of the sacrament-recognition business. Let the churches determine the sacramental value of relationships, and let (state) governments enforce partnership contracts.

With every added issue, conservatives gain allies but also opponents. A narrow focus on reducing government would attract many more people than it repels. Most Americans believe that the federal government spends too much money, is too corrupt, is unaccountable to the citizenry, and creates massive inefficiencies. The first principle of conservative governance addresses all of that, and policies based on that principle would return both responsibilities and monies back to the states and local communities where they belong, so that citizens can more effectively oversee the issues in their own neighborhoods.

Trying to advance a broad agenda of issues that contradict the principle of limited government obviously hasn’t worked. All that produced was a spending spree that further bloated government and left the public with the impression that little difference exists between “conservatives” and “progressives” except in who gets the cash. If we tried actual, real conservatism by focusing on a return to smaller, less intrusive federal governance, the side issues will become more manageable in our communities. It would provide credibility to a movement that by its very nature should demand that government stay out of the bedroom and the boardroom and treat its citizens like sovereign adults rather than recalcitrant children unable to make their own decisions.


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I am a conservative first…fiscal, social, and foreign policy. However, on the federal level the government should concern itself with fiscal and foreign policies first, and leave the majority of the social issues to the state.

That being said, we lost Congress not because of the social conservative laws pushed, it was because of the lack of fiscal restraint and doing a horrible job on the border.

Fact of the matter is, in a perfect world marriage should not be a state issue, its a religious one. Where it gets complicated is when children are involved, namely foster care and adoptions. Kids should be put in homes with a loving father and mother. But when we selfishly think its about the relationship of the couple we fail miserably. It isn’t about gay rights, its about redefining the basic family unit so that we don’t hurt grown up feelings at the expense of the welfare of children.
But then again, moms have kids and pick up a girlfriend, should the state take the kid away? No, the state was wrong taking the kids out of the homes of polygamous families, it would be wrong if they did it to homosexual parents.

Conservative Voice on May 31, 2008 at 1:33 AM

My point was that the principles in the founding documents were vital, but excluded many in practice.

dedalus on May 31, 2008 at 1:14 AM

Exactly. That’s why I struck it.

“All (white) males were created equal.“

Seems unlikely that the founders, while not asserting equal status for blacks and women, were granting it to a fertilized egg.

dedalus on May 31, 2008 at 12:36 AM

They would never have referred to our posterity as “a fertilized egg”.

Had they been faced with a decision like Roe v Wade, they would have ammended the Constitution faster than a liberal chic takes her skirt off for her new boyfriend.

Saltysam on May 31, 2008 at 1:34 AM

. . . faster than a liberal chic takes her skirt off for her new boyfriend.

Saltysam on May 31, 2008 at 1:34 AM

That is certainly not MY experience. But maybe the Sixties were not as liberal as today.

platypus on May 31, 2008 at 1:54 AM

platypus on May 31, 2008 at 1:54 AM

A liberal chic may take a little more time for a platypus. I’m not sure…

Saltysam on May 31, 2008 at 1:57 AM

Excellent post. nuff said

Black Adam on May 31, 2008 at 2:57 AM

……..

Fact of the matter is, in a perfect world marriage should not be a state issue, its a religious one.

………
Conservative Voice on May 31, 2008 at 1:33 AM

Not entirely true.. marriage is a Religious institution but its a civil institution as well.

Watch this whole clip(especially watch Rudy’s response at the end starting at around the 3 minute mark..(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK5pAbRXj_4

Chakra Hammer on May 31, 2008 at 3:39 AM

Bravo, Ed…! Bravo…!

Rugged Individual on May 31, 2008 at 3:41 AM

where is MB4 I think he needs some love too

SoCalInfidel on May 30, 2008 at 2:57 PM

A woman is an occasional pleasure but a cigar is always a smoke.
-Groucho Marx

MB4 on May 31, 2008 at 3:46 AM

Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it, and then misapplying the wrong remedies.
- Groucho Marx

MB4 on May 31, 2008 at 4:06 AM

Those are my principles, and if you don’t like them… well, I have others.
- Groucho Marx

MB4 on May 31, 2008 at 4:08 AM

Why a four-year-old child could understand this report. Run out and find me a four-year-old child. I can’t make head nor tail out of it.
- Groucho Marx

MB4 on May 31, 2008 at 4:09 AM

Isn’t it a bit of a stretch to characterize Thoreau as a “conservative”? Libertarian…maybe.

Buy Danish on May 31, 2008 at 7:22 AM

If Only

some conservatives would run for office

bridgetown on May 31, 2008 at 9:10 AM

I notice that the typical HA commenter really does not like the religious right.

At the same time, they pretty much detest plain old conservatives, or “true conservatives” as they mockingly call them.

And they really, really detest the Ron Paul isolationist/libertarian wing of the party.

That’s your right of course. But you might want to consider, in spewing your invective on large sections of the party, that your simultaneous calls for “unity” against the Democrats look pretty peculiar. As best I can tell you people are simply pro-Iraq war liberals. You seem to loath all the principle strands of the GOP.

Most of the calls for gay marriage and bashing of religion I read here would not be out of place at Kos or some other left-wing site, apart from the absence of swearing.

flenser on May 31, 2008 at 12:45 AM

For me, this is profound. I voted for Clinton the first time. My political awakening didn’t happen until after that. I didn’t know that I had been schooled in liberalism and had drunk the Kool-Aid. I joined the Rep. party, to the shame and horror of my friends and family and community and employer, etc. But truly, I didn’t know who else was in the tent with me. I was allied in my opposition to liberalism, democrats, Clintons, etc.

Here I begin to meet my tent mates– libertarians, conservatives, religious right, Paulians, etc. Who knew there were so many areas of disagreement? So now I’ll have to decide what I am, besides being in opposition to Democrats and liberalism. Thanks for the education.

JiangxiDad on May 31, 2008 at 9:46 AM

Best post of the week!

In my view, the GOP made a contract with America back in the lead-up to the 92 election. Basic Conservative principles & values were the foundation of this contract, and the people showed the world that they support these basic principles and values by way of their votes.

What then happened; the GOP critters were lead into a trap by the all mighty MSM. The human lust for power, sex, money, and headline news proved to be too much. The GOP was lead down a path of self destruction. The Liberal media critters said “you fella’s just made promises to the people that you won’t be capable of keeping, as we will prove over time; you fella’s think you are above our deadliest weapons; we will put out the bait, and one by one you fella’s will take the bait hook, line, and sinker.” The old principle’s won out one more time. The Devils advocate; ownership of one’s soul comes easily once the soul has drank from the pool of sins. Corruption within the GOP ranks ran thick by the time we reached the new century.

Go back to the basics GOP, but this time you had better shield yourselves from the Liberals most deadly weapons. In the mean while, Liberalism continues to win huge battles here in America, gaining much ground with attacks on religion, traditional marriage, our flag, our military, freedom of speech, boy scouts; on and on and on… The true enemy within is the Liberal controlled media. This is exactly why Soros has invested so heavily in this area, and why we had better watch Murdock very closely.

Keemo on May 31, 2008 at 9:50 AM

I don’t doubt that McCain will win, not due to his strength as a politician, but due to how bad B. Hussein Obama is. But what will that mean?

I hope that there are brave Republicans who will fight McCain when he wants to dissolve our borders, close Gitmo, and fight an environmental problem that doesn’t exist. God help us.

Mojave Mark on May 31, 2008 at 10:33 AM

They would never have referred to our posterity as “a fertilized egg”.

Had they been faced with a decision like Roe v Wade, they would have ammended the Constitution faster than a liberal chic takes her skirt off for her new boyfriend.

Saltysam on May 31, 2008 at 1:34 AM

I’d be interested to reading any citations that support the idea that the founders would have written rights for the unborn into the U.S. Constitution.

The founders lacked the science to use the term “fertilized egg”, but some people at the time used terms like “quickening” to described when an unborn child becomes alive.

It is likely that a husband would have had as much or more say as his wife over a pregnancy. Given a concern for posterity, I’m not sure what latitude a husband might have had if his wife became pregnant through a rape or infidelity.

dedalus on May 31, 2008 at 10:53 AM

MB4

A small correction in wording and attribution:

From Rudyard Kipling’s “The Betrothed”. After being nagged by his Maggie to marry after he gives up cigars, he notes that his cigars have always been faithful, and after they are used up, there are always another string of 50 available.

Mr. Kipling notes :
“A million surplus Maggies are willing to bear the yoke;
And a woman is only a woman, but a good Cigar is a Smoke.
Light me another Cuba — I hold to my first-sworn vows.
If Maggie will have no rival, I’ll have no Maggie for Spouse.”

Or, as Walt Kelly said in Pogo – “A woman has only acumen, but a good cigar is a smoke.”

Old Country Boy on May 31, 2008 at 11:11 AM

flenser

Yeah, they all love him now. But 66% sure did not vote for him back in the day. Better check your results again. And I’m sure you did not read his speech I linked to.

Ok, 50.1% of the popular vote and 44 states carried in 1980. No need for the religious right there. The big states, like New York and California are not hotbeds of fundamentalist Christians. Wow, Jerry Falwell delivered the South…

Perhaps it was closer in 1984? Nope… 49 states carried and 58.8% of the popular vote. Absolutely no need for the religious right. Zilch.

Reagan’s speech be damned, dude. How much of the conservative Christian agenda did he adopt? The big one was and remains Abortion. How did Reagan’s SCOTUS folks do on that? Yeah.

But as I say, I’m amused that the “social cons” are both a meaningless minority (you) AND at the same time they are the evil force making the GOP march down the road to big government (most of the other people here). And in some cases, both at the same time!

In the grand scheme of things, they are meaningless. The problem is, that like the hippies in the Democratic Party, you hold disproportionate power based on numbers. The USA thinks the RNC is a party of religious fundamentalists and the actual Republican principles are lost in the noise of Gay Marriage, and Intelligent Design.

It’s why the left was in power for 13 years in Canada.

Krydor on May 31, 2008 at 11:30 AM

Isn’t it a bit of a stretch to characterize Thoreau as a “conservative”? Libertarian…maybe.

Buy Danish on May 31, 2008 at 7:22 AM

I wondered further how convoluted the uberliberal mind was in using Thoreau as their poster boy pre-Gore.

maverick muse on May 31, 2008 at 11:35 AM

Mojave Mark on May 31, 2008 at 10:33 AM

The only way a Pres.McCain would end up smelling like a rose would be for his entire energies to be spent fighting terrorism. If Johnny’s given any time on his hands, that maverick will hang US up to dry instead of the proverbial ‘them’. So indeed we are caught between a rock and a hard place, because who wants the worst that could happen given the menu/ballot we’re stuck with.

maverick muse on May 31, 2008 at 11:40 AM

Take gay marriage as one example….Let the churches determine the sacramental value of relationships, and let (state) governments enforce partnership contracts.

Recognizing that marriage is a union of one man and one woman is a matter of public policy. The state has both the right and the duty to establish and promote sound public policy. This is not a matter of sanctification or sacraments; rather, it is no different than a public policy that encourages home ownership through tax regulations – although marriage is more fundamental and critical to the on-going functioning of the state.

Encouraging the natural, hard-wired, human institution of pair-bonding of opposite sexes, marriage, is the norm universally. Even in societies and cultures that have variations, such as polygamy, the concept still begins with the single pair-bond of one man and one woman. It is not religious, per se, since the natural pair-bond is recognized as the foundational family unit in even the most aggressively atheistic governments.

If we, as Americans, could have an honest discussion on the merits of extending public policy support to abnormal forms of pair-bonding without the invective of the hate-mongers calling us “homophobes” and other epithets designed to chill free speech, then perhaps we could understand that tinkering with the pair-bond imperative is not to be treated as an arcane legal issue.

Pahlavan on May 31, 2008 at 11:51 AM

I’d be interested to reading any citations that support the idea that the founders would have written rights for the unborn into the U.S. Constitution.

dedalus on May 31, 2008 at 10:53 AM

If I were you, I’d start with the preamble to the US Constitution:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union,…and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Considering the compromise on slavery, the Taney decision, and the resulting war, you may have a point. Some were a bit crass when it came to extending the rights of man to living human beings. I agree, it would be interesting to speculate on the final roll call. I’d put my money on the ammendment passing, though, considering the paramount concern for the unborn.

Saltysam on May 31, 2008 at 11:52 AM

I’d be interested to reading any citations that support the idea that the founders would have written rights for the unborn into the U.S. Constitution.

dedalus on May 31, 2008 at 10:53 AM

I read an argument once for a national ban on abortion that doesn’t violate federalism based upon the Declaration of Independence and the unalienable rights to LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

JiangxiDad on May 31, 2008 at 12:04 PM

Recognizing that marriage is a union of one man and one woman is a matter of public policy. The state has both the right and the duty to establish and promote sound public policy.
Pahlavan on May 31, 2008 at 11:51 AM

I’m not sure this even applies to straight marriage. I married my wife because I love her, not because I was participating in sound public policy like recycling.

Also, I don’t believe good families are the product of public policy. Rather good families predate good government and are its foundation. It’s the job of the government to get out of the way of families, not feel that families are a government product.

dedalus on May 31, 2008 at 12:10 PM

I’d be interested to reading any citations that support the idea that the founders would have written rights for the unborn into the U.S. Constitution.

dedalus on May 31, 2008 at 10:53 AM

Read their journals and correspondences for any citations supporting their committed observance of life from conception. THEY did not suffer the schizophrenic mindset that besets today’s conveniences. To project our contemporary lack of standards onto the mid-18th Century would be as stupid as claiming that their art was for art’s sake.

maverick muse on May 31, 2008 at 12:14 PM

dedalus on May 31, 2008 at 12:10 PM

I agree.

maverick muse on May 31, 2008 at 12:16 PM

Since your wrong, I guess I’ll correct you. The Greeks were Christians? The Romans?

peski on May 30, 2008 at 9:27 PM

Excuse me, but both the Greek and Roman empires were over-run. They were sentimentally resurrected during the “enlightenment” in a failed attempt to replace the Christian foundation of civilization that still flourishes today. So make no mistake: both the Greek and Roman empires failed to achieve a lasting civilization; they failed I say, as a result of their defects. And the primary defect, in my opinion, was the insufficiency of their popular philosophical outlooks: epicurianism (greek) and stoicism (roman), i.e., the idea that (1) there is no foundation for law or virtue except hedonism (”happiness”) on one hand, and (2) coarse materialism/pragmatism on the other. In modern times we call this defective and insufficient philosophy libertarianism.

Like its predecessors, libertarianism will weaken and ultimately destroy us too, unless it, like its Greek and Roman predecessors, forges a synthesis with Judeo-Christian moral principles. Otherwise, pure libertarianism lacks a true animating principle.

jeff_from_mpls on May 31, 2008 at 12:20 PM

Pahlavan on May 31, 2008 at 11:51 AM

That may well be. But once the state dictates PC, there’s no stopping it. Take the legislation on “hate crimes” for example, what’s the point of making one population more relevant than another, or one individual more important in the eyes of the law than another person? It’s not only stupid, it completely makes the ideal of justice a travesty.

maverick muse on May 31, 2008 at 12:20 PM

jeff_from_mpls on May 31, 2008 at 12:20 PM

Yeah, Rome was such a failure that it lastest 1000 years or so, and gave rise to both the HRE, Catholic Church, and Eastern Roman Empire…. and actualy Rome WAS Christian towards the end, you know, when it did fail?

America, founded on other principals, is now the oldest existing government which has not radicly altered form… and its only a bit over 200 years old, but is failing, as all democracies do, over loose fiscal policy.

Romeo13 on May 31, 2008 at 12:37 PM

jeff from mpls
both the Greek and Roman empires … were sentimentally resurrected during the “enlightenment” in a failed attempt to replace the Christian foundation of civilization that still flourishes today

I would not agree with that statement. In my studies, the Enlightenment was not an attempt to replace Christianity with ancient Greek or Roman standards. It was, however, the period during which the best that the ancients produced enjoyed the attention and aesthetic immersion by European intellectuals who would subsequently immerse themselves in Eastern culture. So far as I understand, the idea of “replacing” was not the intent. Appreciation of knowledge does not require replacing what was with the new style. Styles are merely the expression of the moment. Goethe’s evolution did not require forfeiture of Christianity in order to enjoy knowledge, so far as my studies led me to think.

I do agree with you that the Christian foundation of civilization does still exist today. That’s one reason to pay good attention to the Pope, whether Catholic or not. And the Pope enjoys good company with Fathers of the Christian Faith across the world. I did not just state that the Pope is the Christian foundation of civilization, that would be the life and word of Jesus. The true foundation is in the heart of each person where faith and love prevail.

maverick muse on May 31, 2008 at 12:39 PM

Read their journals and correspondences for any citations supporting their committed observance of life from conception. THEY did not suffer the schizophrenic mindset that besets today’s conveniences. To project our contemporary lack of standards onto the mid-18th Century would be as stupid as claiming that their art was for art’s sake.

maverick muse on May 31, 2008 at 12:14 PM

Thanks. I’ll look more closely at the correspondences. With regard to “Art for Art’s Sake”, in the U.S. you could go back to Edgar Allen Poe’s “The Poetic Principle”. Across the Atlantic you could find “Art’s Sake” origins in the Romantic movement.

dedalus on May 31, 2008 at 12:44 PM

The state has both the right and the duty to establish and promote sound public policy.

Pahlavan on May 31, 2008 at 11:51 AM

Actualy, no. This is the major premise of the experiment we call the USA. The STATE has no rights. It has clearly defined POWERS, but rules at the behest of the people.

People, individuals, have Rights… The State has no right to dictate morality, and only has the power because the Feds have taken those powers UnConstitutionaly unto itself.

Using Tax code to promote a specific lifestyle? In the origional constitution the ONLY Federal tax had to be approtioned… ie… you could not do that. It was specificly written into the Constitution, so that Congress could NOT dictate in that manner…

Romeo13 on May 31, 2008 at 12:45 PM

failing, as all democracies do, over loose fiscal policy.

Romeo13 on May 31, 2008 at 12:37 PM

You would note that all governments with loose fiscal policy fail, whether monarchy, corporate fascist, communist, theocratic, empire, republic or democracy, big or small business or even personal portfolio. “It’s the tick” as the early 20th Century Germans put it when the young “financed” wealth via debt with interest.

maverick muse on May 31, 2008 at 12:46 PM

find “Art’s Sake” origins in the Romantic movement.

dedalus on May 31, 2008 at 12:44 PM

That was the point. We can’t correctly impose one era’s aesthetic ideal upon another where it does not apply.

maverick muse on May 31, 2008 at 12:49 PM

jeff_from_mpls on May 31, 2008 at 12:20 PM

Very interesting comment. Is libertarianism the same as classical liberalism? How does today’s liberalism fit in your sentence?
In modern times we call this defective and insufficient philosophy libertarianism.

JiangxiDad on May 31, 2008 at 12:54 PM

If we, as Americans, could have an honest discussion on the merits of extending public policy support to abnormal forms of pair-bonding without the invective of the hate-mongers calling us “homophobes” and other epithets designed to chill free speech, then perhaps we could understand that tinkering with the pair-bond imperative is not to be treated as an arcane legal issue.

Pahlavan on May 31, 2008 at 11:51 AM

So far as experience has taught, once revisionism starts there’s no stopping the give an inch they take the town routine.

maverick muse on May 31, 2008 at 12:54 PM

I’d be interested to reading any citations that support the idea that the founders would have written rights for the unborn into the U.S. Constitution.

dedalus on May 31, 2008 at 10:53 AM

Or course, there is none. Only the undead ‘living constitution’ justices can find such rights. If one wishes to fix rules as to at what stage of gestation a fetus acquires an inalienable right to be born, that is, when it is to be considered a full fledged human being then such legislation should be introduced and debated. This line of attack might be more fruitful then the current negative attacks perceived as the removal of a woman’s right.

Annar on May 31, 2008 at 12:54 PM

maverick muse on May 31, 2008 at 12:46 PM

Problem is that a Monarchy, Dictatorship, or Socialist Government has a chance to “fix” fiscal policy once it starts to go the wrong way. Because power stems from somthing other than a popularity contest, they can do somthing unpopular to fix the system.

Democracies cannot. The outcry from the electorate once you begin to take away public largess makes it impossible for any Elected Official to remain in power (and knowing this, they don’t even try).

Add in, as we have now, the blatant buying of popularity with things like the latest Farm Bill… or the shell game of giving us a “rebate” to make it look like the elected officials are doing somthing… and the problem snowballs out of control.

Romeo13 on May 31, 2008 at 1:01 PM

such legislation should be introduced and debated

.

Such legislation need not be introduced and debated to “prove” anything. The only thing that would prove is a lack of understanding that life is itself life at all stages of life, and that when life is extinguished at any stage that it is extinguished.

maverick muse on May 31, 2008 at 1:03 PM

Romeo13 on May 31, 2008 at 1:01

Do you have a sense of how fast the end will come, and when?

JiangxiDad on May 31, 2008 at 1:03 PM

The only thing that would prove is a lack of understanding that life is itself life at all stages of life, and that when life is extinguished at any stage that it is extinguished.

maverick muse on May 31, 2008 at 1:03 PM

Quite so. However, since there is much confusion about what you wrote, we could use some laws, minus the debate :) Religious people don’t need them, but for those of us who need to learn about what unalienable rights are, some instruction and laws might help.

JiangxiDad on May 31, 2008 at 1:15 PM

JiangxiDad on May 31, 2008 at 1:03 PM

Within a generation. We have too many unfunded mandates that will destroy the economy. With the Baby Boomer Social Security bubble, the only chance we have is what the Fed Res Bank already started doing, devalue the dollar.

Of course, that means less Worth for the set amount already promised to us in law… so it will work until the electorate figures out that Soc Sec means poverty.

Of course, devalueing the dollar while not having enough internal energy produced will destroy our economy as the trade deficit skyrockets… but we have too many folks in charge, who have no coherent plan… they are just trying to stay in power…

US Gov bankrupcty will be accelerated by a mandate for Health Care, and any type of Socialist Green global warming CO2 cap and trade system…

The problem is typified by the fact that we won’t drill for oil here… shortsighted and stupid, but can’t be done politicly because we have created a green power base which the Politicians are beholden to.

Romeo13 on May 31, 2008 at 1:18 PM

Krydor

Reagan’s speech be damned, dude.

I think it’s pretty clear at this point that you neither know nor care what Reagan thought and did, and that your idea would have been more aptly expressed as “Reagan be dammed, dude”. I’m quite sure that you STILL did not read the speech.

The big states, like New York and California are not hotbeds of fundamentalist Christians. Wow, Jerry Falwell delivered the South…

The standard attitude of a witless HAer. The South is just supposed to vote Republican. And you display your deep ignorance of Republican politics when you conflate “fundamentalist Christians” with “social conservatives”. The reason Reagan carried all those states outside the south was because “social conservatives” were up in arms over things like urban violence and busing. Reagan specifically mentions these things in that speech you don’t give a damm about.

How much of the conservative Christian agenda did he adopt? The big one was and remains Abortion. How did Reagan’s SCOTUS folks do on that? Yeah.

Are you trying to say that Reagan deliberately appointed justices who he knew would not vote to overturn Roe? You’re just being obnoxious, Krydor, you are no more capable of rational thought than any other liberal.

In the grand scheme of things, they are meaningless. The problem is, that like the hippies in the Democratic Party, you hold disproportionate power based on numbers.

Have I pointed out yet that you are an incoherent moron?

The USA thinks the RNC is a party of religious fundamentalists and the actual Republican principles are lost in the noise of Gay Marriage, and Intelligent Design.

If in fact the USA thinks that, it’s because ignorant bigots like you keep repeating the lie.

It’s why the left was in power for 13 years in Canada.

No, the left were in power for thirteen years in Canada because Canada is a pretty left-wing country. And if you have your way, the US will be the same. The politics of the parts of America you like (the parts outside the South) are the same as in Canada.

flenser on May 31, 2008 at 1:20 PM

jeff_from_mpls on May 31, 2008 at 12:20 PM

Wrong, talk about a rewrite of history. Rome fell because of pride. They thought they would always be great, so were not fiscally responsible and hired more and more foreigners to do the job that Romans weren’t willing to do ( including the military ). Sound familiar…let me spell it out to you in modern terms, they didn’t manage the border nor were they fiscally responsible.

Chakra Hammer on May 31, 2008 at 3:39 AM
Duh, I know its a civil institution, which was my point…I was saying it shouldn’t be a civil institution. The state can manage contracts between people, and leave the idea of marriage to the church.

Conservative Voice on May 31, 2008 at 1:34 PM

Well, I just checked out Krydor’s blog, and his near total ignorance of American politics is explained. He’s Canadian.

Take off, eh!

flenser on May 31, 2008 at 1:35 PM

I think it’s pretty clear at this point that you neither know nor care what Reagan thought and did, and that your idea would have been more aptly expressed as “Reagan be dammed, dude”. I’m quite sure that you STILL did not read the speech.

Flenser,

You said check the numbers, and I posted them. You have no reply. Sorry if it bothers you that the Christian Coalition was irrelevant with regards to both of Ronald Reagan’s elections. I can’t change history so that it matches your fable. Reagan won without you and appealed to a broad cross section of society. Get used to it. Bush won with you, and that worked out well.

Are you trying to say that Reagan deliberately appointed justices who he knew would not vote to overturn Roe? You’re just being obnoxious, Krydor, you are no more capable of rational thought than any other liberal.

Nope, I’m saying that Reagan couldn’t implement a single Christian Coalition plank under any guise. He was elected on a low tax/small government/states rights platform.

Have I pointed out yet that you are an incoherent moron?

Nice ad hominem. The fact is that Christian Conservatives hold far too much power in proportion to their actual impact. The thing that killed the Democrats in 2000 & 2004 rested on appeasing their moron base of lame hippies. What will kill the Republicans is much the same dynamic. Look at some of the Fundies running around wanting Huck as VP.

However, they don’t care. It’s not about the party, it’s about them.

No, the left were in power for thirteen years in Canada because Canada is a pretty left-wing country. And if you have your way, the US will be the same. The politics of the parts of America you like (the parts outside the South) are the same as in Canada.

Nope, the Liberal Party took well over half the seats with less than half the vote. The combined vote of the Progressive Conservatives & Reform/Alliance was greater. Because of two parties, we got far less seats. In the end, we set aside our differences and came back to power.

I sure hope you don’t decide to teach the party a lesson, because you’ll be in much the same boat. You’ve lost what is fundamental to conservatism.

Krydor on May 31, 2008 at 1:41 PM

Romeo13 on May 31, 2008 at 1:18 PM

I have envisioned that scenario as well. I think about where to live and how to be invested in order to minimize the coming damage.

btw, I have this theory that we are, in effect, back on the gold standard. Hear me out. It is now so easy and cheap to buy gold, that anyone here can now exchange all their dollar holdings for gold, for small commissions. I’ve done that for some of my money. I could do it for all. More people are doing it.

I also invest in commodities. That also mitigates against the danger of the falling dollar. I don’t count SS or Medicaire in my retirement planning. Realistically, I’d expect to get perhaps half of what’s promised. Add to that trying to save and invest every last cent, and it seems like a plan.

JiangxiDad on May 31, 2008 at 1:43 PM

Well, I just checked out Krydor’s blog, and his near total ignorance of American politics is explained. He’s Canadian.

Take off, eh!

flenser

Um, I said I was Canadian in this very thread. I’ve never said nor claimed different. I can’t help it if I know more about the elections of both Bush and Reagan than you do.

Krydor on May 31, 2008 at 1:45 PM

Sorry if it bothers you that the Christian Coalition was irrelevant with regards to both of Ronald Reagan’s elections.

As I say, you don’t have the faintest idea what you are talking about. The fact that you were not even born at the time is hardly an excuse.

I’m saying that Reagan couldn’t implement a single Christian Coalition plank under any guise. He was elected on a low tax/small government/states rights platform.

You would not repeatedly make yourself look like a loud mouthed idiot if you’d only read Reagans own words. He actually quotes the GOP platform, and it’s pointedly NOT simply a “low tax/small government” platform, those not being the main issues of the time.

Nice ad hominem.

But it is not an ad hominem. You repeatedly insist both that the “social cons” have power because of their numbers, and that they are a tiny and unimportant minority. And you seem unable to notice that you are contradicting yourself even when it’s pointed out to you.

America is not Canada, Krydor. Not yet, and not until people like you in America are able to get their way.

You’ve lost what is fundamental to conservatism.

You don’t the slightest clue what is fundamental to conservatism.

flenser on May 31, 2008 at 1:51 PM

JiangxiDad on May 31, 2008 at 1:43 PM

Good move going into things with intrinsic worth… because they will HAVE to continue to devalue the dollar, its the only way they hope to pay for Soc Sec…

Problem is that the rest of peoples savings and retirement stuff is devalued as well… and if they devalue enough to tank the economy… everyone with investments gets hurt.

I think Washington is just putting a finger in the dike, instead of fixing the dang dam… they really have no clue.

Romeo13 on May 31, 2008 at 1:52 PM

Hear me out. It is now so easy and cheap to buy gold, that anyone here can now exchange all their dollar holdings for gold, for small commissions. I’ve done that for some of my money. I could do it for all. More people are doing it.

I also invest in commodities. That also mitigates against the danger of the falling dollar.

JiangxiDad on May 31, 2008 at 1:43 PM

I think the US$ (especially against the Euro) is a better value than gold, given their relative prices. In the short term the price of oil scares me–this coming week is likely to be very volatile with probably more downward than upward pressure. That said, though, longer term, diversifying out of the US dollar and using oil as a currency has appeal.

dedalus on May 31, 2008 at 1:59 PM

Since our friend from the Great White North is unwilling to read the link I posted, I’ll quote it extensively, in the hope that shoving it before his eyeballs will force some information into his torpid synapses.

Those polls confirm that most Americans are basically conservative in their outlook. But once we have said this, we conservatives have not solved our problems, we have merely stated them clearly. Yes, conservatism can and does mean different things to those who call themselves conservatives.

You know, as I do, that most commentators make a distinction between [what] they call “social” conservatism and “economic” conservatism. The so-called social issues — law and order, abortion, busing, quota systems — are usually associated with blue-collar, ethnic and religious groups themselves traditionally associated with the Democratic Party. The economic issues — inflation, deficit spending and big government — are usually associated with Republican Party members and independents who concentrate their attention on economic matters.

Now I am willing to accept this view of two major kinds of conservatism — or, better still, two different conservative constituencies. But at the same time let me say that the old lines that once clearly divided these two kinds of conservatism are disappearing.

In fact, the time has come to see if it is possible to present a program of action based on political principle that can attract those interested in the so-called “social” issues and those interested in “economic” issues. In short, isn’t it possible to combine the two major segments of contemporary American conservatism into one politically effective whole?

I believe the answer is: Yes, it is possible to create a political entity that will reflect the views of the great, hitherto [unacknowledged], conservative majority. We went a long way toward doing it in California. We can do it in America. This is not a dream, a wistful hope. It is and has been a reality. I have seen the conservative future and it works.

Let me say again what I said to our conservative friends from the academic world: What I envision is not simply a melding together of the two branches of American conservatism into a temporary uneasy alliance, but the creation of a new, lasting majority.

This will mean compromise. But not a compromise of basic principle. What will emerge will be something new: something open and vital and dynamic, something the great conservative majority will recognize as its own, because at the heart of this undertaking is principled politics.

I have always been puzzled by the inability of some political and media types to understand exactly what is meant by adherence to political principle. All too often in the press and the television evening news it is treated as a call for “ideological purity.” Whatever ideology may mean — and it seems to mean a variety of things, depending upon who is using it — it always conjures up in my mind a picture of a rigid, irrational clinging to abstract theory in the face of reality. We have to recognize that in this country “ideology” is a scare word. And for good reason. Marxist-Leninism is, to give but one example, an ideology. All the facts of the real world have to be fitted to the Procrustean bed of Marx and Lenin. If the facts don’t happen to fit the ideology, the facts are chopped off and discarded.

I consider this to be the complete opposite to principled conservatism. If there is any political viewpoint in this world which is free from slavish adherence to abstraction, it is American conservatism.

When a conservative says it is bad for the government to spend more than it takes in, he is simply showing the same common sense that tells him to come in out of the rain.

When a conservative says that busing does not work, he is not appealing to some theory of education — he is merely reporting what he has seen down at the local school.

When a conservative quotes Jefferson that government that is closest to the people is best, it is because he knows that Jefferson risked his life, his fortune and his sacred honor to make certain that what he and his fellow patriots learned from experience was not crushed by an ideology of empire.

Conservatism is the antithesis of the kind of ideological fanaticism that has brought so much horror and destruction to the world. The common sense and common decency of ordinary men and women, working out their own lives in their own way — this is the heart of American conservatism today. Conservative wisdom and principles are derived from willingness to learn, not just from what is going on now, but from what has happened before.

The principles of conservatism are sound because they are based on what men and women have discovered through experience in not just one generation or a dozen, but in all the combined experience of mankind. When we conservatives say that we know something about political affairs, and that we know can be stated as principles, we are saying that the principles we hold dear are those that have been found, through experience, to be ultimately beneficial for individuals, for families, for communities and for nations — found through the often bitter testing of pain, or sacrifice and sorrow.

One thing that must be made clear in post-Watergate is this: The American new conservative majority we represent is not based on abstract theorizing of the kind that turns off the American people, but on common sense, intelligence, reason, hard work, faith in God, and the guts to say: “Yes, there are things we do strongly believe in, that we are willing to live for, and yes, if necessary, to die for.” That is not “ideological purity.” It is simply what built this country and kept it great.

Let us lay to rest, once and for all, the myth of a small group of ideological purists trying to capture a majority. Replace it with the reality of a majority trying to assert its rights against the tyranny of powerful academics, fashionable left-revolutionaries, some economic illiterates who happen to hold elective office and the social engineers who dominate the dialogue and set the format in political and social affairs. If there is any ideological fanaticism in American political life, it is to be found among the enemies of freedom on the left or right — those who would sacrifice principle to theory, those who worship only the god of political, social and economic abstractions, ignoring the realities of everyday life. They are not conservatives.

……

Once we have established this, the next question is: What will be the political vehicle by which the majority can assert its rights?

I have to say I cannot agree with some of my friends — perhaps including some of you here tonight — who have answered that question by saying this nation needs a new political party.

I respect that view and I know that those who have reached it have done so after long hours of study. But I believe that political success of the principles we believe in can best be achieved in the Republican Party. I believe the Republican Party can hold and should provide the political mechanism through which the goals of the majority of Americans can be achieved. For one thing, the biggest single grouping of conservatives is to be found in that party. It makes more sense to build on that grouping than to break it up and start over. Rather than a third party, we can have a new first party made up of people who share our principles. I have said before that if a formal change in name proves desirable, then so be it. But tonight, for purpose of discussion, I’m going to refer to it simply as the New Republican Party.

And let me say so there can be no mistakes as to what I mean: The New Republican Party I envision will not be, and cannot, be one limited to the country club-big business image that, for reasons both fair and unfair, it is burdened with today. The New Republican Party I am speaking about is going to have room for the man and the woman in the factories, for the farmer, for the cop on the beat and the millions of Americans who may never have thought of joining our party before, but whose interests coincide with those represented by principled Republicanism. If we are to attract more working men and women of this country, we will do so not by simply “making room” for them, but by making certain they have a say in what goes on in the party. The Democratic Party turned its back on the majority of social conservatives during the 1960s. The New Republican Party of the late ’70s and ’80s must welcome them, seek them out, enlist them, not only as rank-and-file members but as leaders and as candidates.

…………

Our candidates must be willing to communicate with every level of society, because the principles we espouse are universal and cut across traditional lines. In every Congressional district there should be a search made for young men and women who share these principles and they should be brought into positions of leadership in the local Republican Party groups. We can find attractive, articulate candidates if we look, and when we find them, we will begin to change the sorry state of affairs that has led to a Democratic-controlled Congress for more than 40 years. I need not remind you that you can have the soundest principles in the world, but if you don’t have candidates who can communicate those principles, candidates who are articulate as well as principled, you are going to lose election after election. I refuse to believe that the good Lord divided this world into Republicans who defend basic values and Democrats who win elections. We have to find tough, bright young men and women who are sick and tired of cliches and the pomposity and the mind-numbing economic idiocy of the liberals in Washington.

It is at this point, however, that we come across a question that is really the essential one: What will be the basis of this New Republican Party? To what set of values and principles can our candidates appeal? Where can Americans who want to know where we stand look for guidance?

Fortunately, we have an answer to that question. That answer was provided last summer by the men and women of the Republican Party — not just the leadership, but the ones who have built the party on local levels all across the country.

The answer was provided in the 1976 platform of the Republican Party.

This was not a document handed down from on high. It was hammered out in free and open debate among all those who care about our party and the principles it stands for.

The Republican platform is unique. Unlike any other party platform I have ever seen, it answers not only programmatic questions for the immediate future of the party but also provides a clear outline of the underlying principles upon which those programs are based.

The New Republican Party can and should use the Republican platform of 1976 as the major source from which a Declaration of Principles can be created and offered to the American people.

Tonight I want to offer to you my own version of what such a declaration might look like. I make no claim to originality. This declaration I propose is relatively short, taken, for most part, word for word from the Republican platform. It concerns itself with basic principles, not with specific solutions.

We, the members of the New Republican Party, believe that the preservation and enhancement of the values that strengthen and protect individual freedom, family life, communities and neighborhoods and the liberty of our beloved nation should be at the heart of any legislative or political program presented to the American people. Toward that end, we, therefore, commit ourselves to the following propositions and offer them to each American believing that the New Republican Party, based on such principles, will serve the interest of all the American people.

We believe that liberty can be measured by how much freedom Americans have to make their own decisions, even their own mistakes. Government must step in when one’s liberties impinge on one’s neighbor’s. Government must protect constitutional rights, deal with other governments, protect citizens from aggressors, assure equal opportunity, and be compassionate in caring for those citizens who are unable to care for themselves.

Our federal system of local-state-national government is designed to sort out on what level these actions should be taken. Those concerns of a national character — such as air and water pollution that do not respect state boundaries, or the national transportation system, or efforts to safeguard your civil liberties — must, of course, be handled on the national level.

As a general rule, however, we believe that government action should be taken first by the government that resides as close to you as possible.

We also believe that Americans, often acting through voluntary organizations, should have the opportunity to solve many of the social problems of their communities. This spirit of freely helping others is uniquely American and should be encouraged in every way by government.

Families must continue to be the foundation of our nation.

Families — not government programs — are the best way to make sure our children are properly nurtured, our elderly are cared for, our cultural and spiritual heritages are perpetuated, our laws are observed and our values are preserved.

Thus it is imperative that our government’s programs, actions, officials and social welfare institutions never be allowed to jeopardize the family. We fear the government may be powerful enough to destroy our families; we know that it is not powerful enough to replace them. The New Republican Party must be committed to working always in the interest of the American family.

Every dollar spent by government is a dollar earned by individuals. Government must always ask: Are your dollars being wisely spent? Can we afford it? Is it not better for the country to leave your dollars in your pocket?

Elected officials, their appointees, and government workers are expected to perform their public acts with honesty, openness, diligence, and special integrity.

Government must work for the goal of justice and the elimination of unfair practices, but no government has yet designed a more productive economic system or one which benefits as many people as the American market system.

The beauty of our land is our legacy to our children. It must be protected by us so that they can pass it on intact to their children.

……….

My friends, the time has come to start acting to bring about the great conservative majority party we know is waiting to be created.

And just to set the record straight, let me say this about our friends who are now Republicans but who do not identify themselves as conservatives: I want the record to show that I do not view the new revitalized Republican Party as one based on a principle of exclusion. After all, you do not get to be a majority party by searching for groups you won’t associate or work with. If we truly believe in our principles, we should sit down and talk. Talk with anyone, anywhere, at any time if it means talking about the principles for the Republican Party. Conservatism is not a narrow ideology, nor is it the exclusive property of conservative activists.

We’ve succeeded better than we know. Little more than a decade ago more than two-thirds of Americans believed the federal government could solve all our problems, and do so without restricting our freedom or bankrupting the nation.

We warned of things to come, of the danger inherent in unwarranted government involvement in things not its proper province. What we warned against has come to pass. And today more than two-thirds of our citizens are telling us, and each other, that social engineering by the federal government has failed. The Great Society is great only in power, in size and in cost. And so are the problems it set out to solve. Freedom has been diminished and we stand on the brink of economic ruin.

Our task now is not to sell a philosophy, but to make the majority of Americans, who already share that philosophy, see that modern conservatism offers them a political home. We are not a cult, we are members of a majority. Let’s act and talk like it.

The job is ours and the job must be done. If not by us, who? If not now, when?

Linky.

flenser on May 31, 2008 at 2:01 PM

Fine. I agree. Except that we did not do so only for those reasons. The big problem with polygamy is that it creates lots of young men with no women. Sooner or later, they’ll topple such a society. Which is why polygamy is a fairly unusual practice..

If the “Western” tradition developed independent of God, as a legal device and nothing more, why not extend it to those who ask for it in our modern Western society?

flenser on May 30, 2008 at 5:17 PM

On the first point selective abortions could result in many more females than males. (The Chinese are doing just that with females being aborted, an unintended consequence of the one child rule.) If this were to go on for a while the females would revolt and reverse the process with the idea of setting up a polyandrous society.Obviously these scemnarios are ridiculous but so is the whole idea of the government trying to play enforcer for what many consider religious truth.

As to the second point I think that government can play the role of arbiter through its judicial system for civil union contracts between individuals but its role should stop there. The word ‘marriage’ should be removed from civil law and replaced by civil union. Such unions would be permissible between whoever wants such bi or multi-party contracts. This same rewriting of the laws should also include the elimination of any and all tax breaks accorded as recognition of such unions. The money thus saved should be redirected to the children by way of their designated guardian (always singular) and, in the future, guardianship would be decided at birth or at adoption.

Those who wish to do so may get their union sanctioned as a marriage by their cult but such ceremonies would have no legal standing.

Annar on May 31, 2008 at 2:11 PM

As to the second point I think that government can play the role of arbiter through its judicial system for civil union contracts between individuals but its role should stop there.

I think otherwise, for reasons I already explained. You provide no justification for your course of action.

The word ‘marriage’ should be removed from civil law and replaced by civil union. Such unions would be permissible between whoever wants such bi or multi-party contracts.

I give you credit for taking your idea to its logical conclusion, as destructive as that conclusion may be.

This same rewriting of the laws should also include the elimination of any and all tax breaks accorded as recognition of such unions.

I hope you understand that this a a political pipe-dream. It’s not going to happen.

The money thus saved should be redirected to the children by way of their designated guardian (always singular) and, in the future, guardianship would be decided at birth or at adoption.

Plato and Rousseau would approve, I’m sure. Perhaps you cribbed it from them. But it’s collectivism and individualism taken to their ultimate end point – the totalitarian state.

Those who wish to do so may get their union sanctioned as a marriage by their cult but such ceremonies would have no legal standing.

No, only your cult would have any legal standing, the cult of the state.

flenser on May 31, 2008 at 2:23 PM

flenser on May 31, 2008 at 2:01 PM

I don’t see how any of that contradicts what Ed had to say.

Cut back on pork, limit government, leave social issues to society (not to government). What is so controversial about that?

RightOFLeft on May 31, 2008 at 2:50 PM

We warned of things to come, of the danger inherent in unwarranted government involvement in things not its proper province. What we warned against has come to pass. And today more than two-thirds of our citizens are telling us, and each other, that social engineering by the federal government has failed. The Great Society is great only in power, in size and in cost. And so are the problems it set out to solve. Freedom has been diminished and we stand on the brink of economic ruin.

Our task now is not to sell a philosophy, but to make the majority of Americans, who already share that philosophy, see that modern conservatism offers them a political home. We are not a cult, we are members of a majority. Let’s act and talk like it.

The job is ours and the job must be done. If not by us, who? If not now, when?

Bingo!

Keemo on May 31, 2008 at 2:59 PM

Romeo13 on May 31, 2008 at 1:52 PM

I forgot to make my main point about gold. Since it’s so easy for anyone to switch out of dollars into gold, that puts a brake on the Fed’s ability to print too much money, or otherwise do things to devalue the currency. Go too far, and no one will hold it. This is a built-in mechanism now that can help slow the pace of devaluation. For ex, as Dedalus pointed out above, oil and gold may have shot too high and the dollar may now be undervalued–at least temporarily. That’s my take anyhow.

JiangxiDad on May 31, 2008 at 3:00 PM

Bingo!

Keemo on May 31, 2008 at 2:59 PM

Do the majority of Americans still believe that? Do they even know anything about it anymore?

JiangxiDad on May 31, 2008 at 3:03 PM

Plato and Rousseau would approve, I’m sure. Perhaps you cribbed it from them. But it’s collectivism and individualism taken to their ultimate end point – the totalitarian state.

Those who wish to do so may get their union sanctioned as a marriage by their cult but such ceremonies would have no legal standing.

No, only your cult would have any legal standing, the cult of the state.

flenser on May 31, 2008 at 2:23 PM

Actually my idea favors individual choice and minimizes he government role to its only real concern, the well-being of children. I have read Rousseau (in the original French) and what he has to say merits some attention by serious minded people but it has little to do with my own views.

I suppose that your last statement is a feeble attempt at humor (D-).

Annar on May 31, 2008 at 3:11 PM

The Chinese are doing just that with females being aborted, an unintended consequence of the one child rule.

Annar on May 31, 2008 at 2:11 PM

You are one sick freak…I guess that’s just proof of what atheism produces.

SaintOlaf on May 31, 2008 at 3:23 PM

You are one sick freak…I guess that’s just proof of what atheism produces.

SaintOlaf on May 31, 2008 at 3:23 PM

O my, your mommy forgot the parental controls again!

Annar on May 31, 2008 at 3:37 PM

Like Ed said, not in our bedrooms or boardrooms, and I might add, not im my friggin’ wallet.

hillbillyjim on May 31, 2008 at 1:24 AM

That’s why I like you so much hillbillyjim.

flenser, I believe that you are either a Paul voter, or more likely an Obama one, in some disguise.

Entelechy on May 31, 2008 at 3:56 PM

You missed my point. I would agree that abortion is murder – if a human being is being killed. At what point between ejaculation, firtilization, and birth, does a cell or group of cells become human?

peski on May 30, 2008 at 1:50 PM

When it has the same set of DNA that it does as a baby, child, adult and senior… in other words, conception.

dominigan on May 31, 2008 at 4:57 PM

Entelechy

I strongly encourage you to attempt to describe your own beliefs, if you figure out what they are, and stop worrying that I’m a Paul supporter or Obama supporter in disguise. As you should have noticed by now, I’m not bashful when it comes to telling people where I’m coming from. Try it yourself sometime.

If you are really one of the brighter commenters on this site, then it badly needs some new blood.

On a positive note, at least you’ve graduated from telling me how amused you are.

flenser on May 31, 2008 at 5:05 PM

Annar

Actually my idea favors individual choice and minimizes he government role to its only real concern, the well-being of children. I have read Rousseau (in the original French) and what he has to say merits some attention by serious minded people but it has little to do with my own views.

I’d say your French is in need of some remedial work then.

I suppose that your last statement is a feeble attempt at humor (D-).

No, it’s a recognition of the fact that individualism and collectivism go hand in hand, both in theory (you’re read Rousseau, right?) and in practice.

Let’s quote the man, in English.

From the first moment of life, men ought to begin learning to deserve to live; and, as at the instant of birth we partake of the rights of citizenship, that instant ought to be the beginning of the exercise of our duty. If there are laws for the age of maturity, there ought to be laws for infancy, teaching obedience to others: and as the reason of each man is not left to be the sole arbiter of his duties, government ought the less indiscriminately to abandon to the intelligence and prejudices of fathers the education of their children, as that education is of still greater importance to the State than to the fathers: for, according to the course of nature, the death of the father often deprives him of the final fruits of education; but his country sooner or later perceives its effects. Families dissolve, but the State remains.

Should the public authority, by taking the place of the father, and charging itself with that important function, acquire his rights by discharging his duties, he would have the less cause to complain, as he would only be changing his title, and would have in common, under the name of citizen, the same authority over his children, as he was exercising separately under the name of father, and would not be less obeyed when speaking in the name of the law, than when he spoke in that of nature. Public education, therefore, under regulations prescribed by the government, and under magistrates established by the Sovereign, is one of the fundamental rules of popular or legitimate government. If children are brought up in common in the bosom of equality; if they are imbued with the laws of the State and the precepts of the general will; if they are taught to respect these above all things; if they are surrounded by examples and objects which constantly remind them of the tender mother who nourishes them, of the love she bears them, of the inestimable benefits they receive from her, and of the return they owe her, we cannot doubt that they will learn to cherish one another mutually as brothers, to will nothing contrary to the will of society, to substitute the actions of men and citizens for the futile and vain babbling of sophists, and to become in time defenders and fathers of the country of which they will have been so long the children.

flenser on May 31, 2008 at 5:14 PM

RightofLeft

I don’t see how any of that contradicts what Ed had to say.

Cut back on pork, limit government, leave social issues to society (not to government). What is so controversial about that?

It was a response to another commenter, not directly to Ed, though I suppose it applies to him also. And it was a long quote, so perhaps you somehow missed this part.

And let me say so there can be no mistakes as to what I mean: The New Republican Party I envision will not be, and cannot, be one limited to the country club-big business image that, for reasons both fair and unfair, it is burdened with today. The New Republican Party I am speaking about is going to have room for the man and the woman in the factories, for the farmer, for the cop on the beat and the millions of Americans who may never have thought of joining our party before, but whose interests coincide with those represented by principled Republicanism. If we are to attract more working men and women of this country, we will do so not by simply “making room” for them, but by making certain they have a say in what goes on in the party. The Democratic Party turned its back on the majority of social conservatives during the 1960s. The New Republican Party of the late ’70s and ’80s must welcome them, seek them out, enlist them, not only as rank-and-file members but as leaders and as candidates.

Government is how society expresses its will. Government is already heavily mixed up with “social issues” and has been for a long time, at least as far back as the Civil War, which was fought over a “social issue”.

flenser on May 31, 2008 at 5:20 PM

As I say, you don’t have the faintest idea what you are talking about. The fact that you were not even born at the time is hardly an excuse.

Oh brother. So, even though none of the hard data supports your opinion, you continue on. Reagan won TWO landslide victories. Now you attack my age, even though you have no idea how old I am?

You would not repeatedly make yourself look like a loud mouthed idiot if you’d only read Reagans own words. He actually quotes the GOP platform, and it’s pointedly NOT simply a “low tax/small government” platform, those not being the main issues of the time.

Yes, sigh, if only… If only… Whatever shall I do? Reagan’s own words indeed. You have not a clue. Reagan ran on what Reagan ran on, which was what I said. Are you really that unaware?

But it is not an ad hominem. You repeatedly insist both that the “social cons” have power because of their numbers, and that they are a tiny and unimportant minority. And you seem unable to notice that you are contradicting yourself even when it’s pointed out to you.

Power disproportionate to their numbers. Are the words too big? I’m at a loss. See, I just called you stupid.


America is not Canada, Krydor. Not yet, and not until people like you in America are able to get their way.

Sigh… Never said it was. What I said was that unless the Republicans get their house in order, you will not have a say in policy for the forseeable future. How hard is that to fathom?

You don’t the slightest clue what is fundamental to conservatism.

flenser

Nope, not at all. Enjoy the wilderness.

Krydor on May 31, 2008 at 5:32 PM

I’d say your French is in need of some remedial work then.

flenser on May 31, 2008 at 5:14 PM

Je dirais que vous avez de problèmes en français et en anglais. Je n’ai jamais dit que j’étais de son avis sur tout et il a écrit beaucoup plus que le petit extrait que vous avez cité.

Annar on May 31, 2008 at 6:09 PM

Dear flenser,

I’m not worried about whom you are for, or against.

I’m bashful.

I’m not one of the brighter ones here, as you so aptly identified. Au contraire, I’m one of the slower ones. I bow completely to the wisdom of your kind, and try to learn, as as fast as I’m able. I beg for your indulgence.

It’s a good thing that you don’t determine who comments here. You seem to look down on those who’re not of your caliber.

My beliefs are all over in the history of HA. I can’t give you more, out of fear.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I’m always amused. It’s in the nature of the slow people. We’re dumb and happy.

Entelechy on May 31, 2008 at 6:13 PM

When it has the same set of DNA that it does as a baby, child, adult and senior… in other words, conception.

dominigan on May 31, 2008 at 4:57 PM

What is the quality of DNA that makes tantamount to a person? How is a single cell with DNA more like a person than an organ awaiting transplant? The organ has far more DNA.

dedalus on May 31, 2008 at 6:21 PM

I’m not worried about whom you are for, or against.

Then your obsessive speculation on the matter is even more odd.

I bow completely to the wisdom of your kind, and try to learn, as as fast as I’m able. I beg for your indulgence.

That’s good. I’ll try to slow things down for you.

My beliefs are all over in the history of HA. I can’t give you more, out of fear.

Fear is the mind killer.

flenser on May 31, 2008 at 6:26 PM

Annar on May 31, 2008 at 6:09 PM

Annar, flenser is not only a polyglot, he’s an omniglot. Bow now, or else you will lose. Just read his wise comments, and learn.

Entelechy on May 31, 2008 at 6:27 PM

Fear is the mind killer.

flenser on May 31, 2008 at 6:26 PM

Thank you flenser. Now I finally know why I’m so slow.

p.s. you can be for or against anyone. I believe that to be totally an individual choice.

Entelechy on May 31, 2008 at 6:30 PM

Oh brother. So, even though none of the hard data supports your opinion, you continue on. Reagan won TWO landslide victories

I don’t see how you deduce from this that social conservatives were not important. Maybe it’s your bizarre belief that they are a tiny minority, and so could not have made the difference.

So here is some “hard data ” for you, and for Morrisey. In 2000, at the same time as California was voting for Al Gore, the voters there passed Proposition 22 by a majority of 61.5%. This specifically said that marriage in CA was to be between one man and one woman.

In California, a pretty liberal state. So spare me this mindless nonsense about how “social conservatives” are this tiny band of trouble makers who lack any political clout. The only part of the GOP’s platform which has any degree of public support is it’s social conservative stance.

The idea that the GOP should drop it’s opposition to gay marriage is political suicide, and it’s a sign of how utterly out of touch the posters and commenters on this site are that it’s even being discussed.

Reagan’s own words indeed. You have not a clue. Reagan ran on what Reagan ran on, which was what I said.

So tell me then, what did Reagan run on? Because you seemed to be insisting earlier that social conservatism was not a part of it.

Power disproportionate to their numbers. Are the words too big?

See the results of the state ballot initiatives regarding gay marriage. It sure looks as if they do indeed have “power disproportionate to their numbers”. Based on their numbers, they should have a lot more power. But both parties are pretty hostile to social conservatism.

What I said was that unless the Republicans get their house in order

You’ll have to explain to me why we need a lecture on getting our house in order from a non-American liberal.

flenser on May 31, 2008 at 6:43 PM

p.s. you can be for or against anyone.

How very generous of you. And I give you, too, permission to be for or against anyone you like.

flenser on May 31, 2008 at 6:46 PM

It’s a good thing that you don’t determine who comments here. You seem to look down on those who’re not of your caliber.

I look down on those who eschew getting involved in the debate, prefering to sit on the sidelines flinging poo at the players. You know, people like you.

flenser on May 31, 2008 at 6:56 PM

flenser, miraculously, via the e-means, you’ve identified something all who know me in person say, namely that I’m a timid, wussified, sideliner on most issues, life or politics.

p.s. I wasn’t flinging anything at you, but if you noticed something coming your way, and were not able to ignore it, you must seek help, or simply learn to deal with it.

Entelechy on May 31, 2008 at 7:11 PM

I broke down and googled “hot air Entelechy”. I’m afraid you are not as famous as you seem to think. There was very little there.

I did turn up an Entelechy commenting at Common Dreams. Any relation?

I think I’ll start ignoring you when you start ignoring me. Why do I suspect I won’t be ignoring you?

flenser on May 31, 2008 at 7:16 PM

You’ll have to explain to me why we need a lecture on getting our house in order from a non-American liberal.

flenser

Those who don’t learn from history are bound to repeat it. We lost our way, we went to the wilderness. You lost yours, the result will be the same. If 2006 wasn’t a wakeup call, then I don’t know what to tell you.

What was Reagan running on? How about you listen to the man himself? Sounds like social conservatism to me… Wait, no it doesn’t. Sounds like some kind of economic thing. Well, who knows? It’s so darn vague! Small government? Taxes? Reaching across the aisle? HE’S A MADMAN!!! Two parts, by the way.

It was the economy, stupid. That’s what drove the election. Had you been alive, you would have known. The only people who seriously credit the Christian Coalition for being kingmakers is the Christian Coalition.

The only part of the GOP’s platform which has any degree of public support is it’s social conservative stance.

Yes, indeed. Which is why they did so well in the last midterm election. Wait, what? They were badly damaged because they spent like drunken sailors and increased the size of government? You don’t say, and you don’t because you live in this crazy revisionist world.

See the results of the state ballot initiatives regarding gay marriage. It sure looks as if they do indeed have “power disproportionate to their numbers”. Based on their numbers, they should have a lot more power. But both parties are pretty hostile to social conservatism.

Add one more thing to the list of crap you don’t understand. No idea about Reagan, basic conservatism and not a clue about social conservatives. It’s rather sad that I have to educate you on one more thing.

Krydor on May 31, 2008 at 7:24 PM

Dear flenser,

Your search skills are not very good, but I’m too slow to help you. However, I don’t think myself to be famous at all. If I were, I’d write a book and attempt to sell it, for profit.

I’m not the other entelechies. I only comment here and on the Michelle Malkin thread, though very rarely. Don’t have time for more than this. Remember, I’m very slow.

You may ignore me or not. Same here. It’s a free country, and blog.

Entelechy on May 31, 2008 at 7:26 PM

Let us not leave out that real conservatives do not get elected. Being called a far left extremist to the public has far softer connotations than being called a conservative.

Hening on May 31, 2008 at 7:26 PM

Hening on May 31, 2008 at 7:26 PM

Yeah, right. That’s why noone wants to be labeled a liberal when they are trying to get elected, and everyone else brags that they’re conservative in hopes that people will believe them.

Softer connotations. Gimme a break.

Saltysam on May 31, 2008 at 7:55 PM

Annar, flenser is not only a polyglot, he’s an omniglot. Bow now, or else you will lose. Just read his wise comments, and learn.

Entelechy on May 31, 2008 at 6:27 PM

His mastered languages must be in the Klingon family. I see, however, that neither French nor English are in his domain of expertise. As to the question of form he seems to have developed an advanced case of St. Olafitis; difficult to treat.

Annar on May 31, 2008 at 8:44 PM

Add one more thing to the list of crap you don’t understand. No idea about Reagan, basic conservatism and not a clue about social conservatives. It’s rather sad that I have to educate you on one more thing.

Krydor on May 31, 2008 at 7:24 PM

I see you know as much about politics as you do about evolution….zero, zilch, nada.

right4life on May 31, 2008 at 9:05 PM

See the results of the state ballot initiatives regarding gay marriage. It sure looks as if they do indeed have “power disproportionate to their numbers”. Based on their numbers, they should have a lot more power. But both parties are pretty hostile to social conservatism.

thats for sure, thats why christians are sitting out the elections, and why they lost in 2006, and will lose in 2008. Dobson won’t support mccain, and neither will I.

telling christians we have no place else to go is a losing proposition. I’m just passing through….what happens to the US is not that important in the long term….I’ve read the back of the book, and US ain’t there. the days of the US as a superpower are fading…

right4life on May 31, 2008 at 9:09 PM

the days of the US as a superpower are fading…

right4life on May 31, 2008 at 9:09 PM

Likely true, though it has enough wealth and momentum to outlast, minimally, you, me, our children, our grandchildren, our great grandchildren.

dedalus on May 31, 2008 at 9:30 PM

right4life on May 31, 2008 at 9:09 PM

So you aren’t supporting McCain because of Dobson? I can think of better reasons.

In any case I am growing tired with certain “Christians” who think they know what it means to be a conservative…aka Mike Huckabee, yet have no clue what it means to be a conservative ( because they think Mike is one ). There is more to being a conservative than abortion and gay marriage ( * I am against abortion and gay marriage ). Just being against abortion and gay marriage doesn’t make one a conservative.
Fact of the matter is, when you have limited and smaller governments, the abortions and gay marriage things work themselves out…on a local level. It is more important to have a fiscal and foreign policy conservative on the federal level than a social conservative, but it would also be wrong if we totally neglected the social conservative agenda. People who think its just the economy, and that the reason why we lost was because we focused on Gay marriage have it backwards. It isn’t one or the other…its both, rather its all three. What killed the Republicans is they neglected their responsibility when it came to taxes and spending, not because they listed to the Christian right.

Conservative Voice on May 31, 2008 at 9:59 PM

I voted for Reagan twice and I voted for him because of his social conservative views. Everyone I knew at the time saw him as socially conservative and supported him for that reason. And I live in California. We knew who he was.

Rose on May 31, 2008 at 10:47 PM

Michelle, whatever you are paying Ed, you’re getting your money’s worth.

Keep up the good work. And more back-to-basics stuff like this!

JamesP on June 1, 2008 at 4:45 AM

“Limited government” means the minimum required to safeguard the nation, not so little that everything is left to the individual. The latter is called anarchy.
Therefore the state must be involved in such things as national defense, since that is required to maintain the nation’s future. Similarly the state must also be involved in marriage, since marriage provides the healthiest environment for raising children, and children determine the future of the nation.

And incidentally, it has nothing to do with “sacrament-recognition”. If it did, the state would not recognize common-law marriages, marriages between atheists, etc. It has to do with a binding oath for two potential parents to stay together so that any children they foster can have a stable home with both a mother and a father.

Make marriage about some kind of expression of mutual affection, instead of about kids, and you ruin the whole notion of marriage. Just take a look at the rate of single parenthood in countries (i.e. Scandinavia) where this shift in emphasis was made some time ago.

Do a little research, Morissey, read an encyclical or two, and stop talking about sacraments when you haven’t the faintest clue what you’re talking about.

Gaunilon on June 1, 2008 at 5:10 AM

I read an argument once for a national ban on abortion that doesn’t violate federalism based upon the Declaration of Independence and the unalienable rights to LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

JiangxiDad on May 31, 2008 at 12:04 PM

The problem with the argument is that it’s not soundly based on historical context and what the Founders were concerned with when they authored the DoI. When the Founders referred to and agreed to the following passage from The Declaration of Independence…

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

…with regard to “Life” they were referring not only to their experiences with the King of England but also to historical actions of Kings and Tyrants of the past. Meaning, a King or tyrant did not have the right to immediately order the taking of your head with a flick of the wrist without due process.

And “Liberty” refers to the King or Tyrant, in the same context as above, taking your Liberty (i.e. jailing you) without due process of law.

eanax on June 1, 2008 at 10:49 AM

I voted for Reagan twice and I voted for him because of his social conservative views. Everyone I knew at the time saw him as socially conservative and supported him for that reason. And I live in California. We knew who he was.

Rose

That may well be, but he ran twice on the economy. Remember “are you better off than you were 4 years ago?”

right4life

Christ has appeared on a tortilla in southern Mexico, why don’t you go check it out?

Krydor on June 1, 2008 at 11:23 AM

with regard to “Life” they were referring not only to their experiences with the King of England but also to historical actions of Kings and Tyrants of the past. Meaning, a King or tyrant did not have the right to immediately order the taking of your head with a flick of the wrist without due process.

And “Liberty” refers to the King or Tyrant, in the same context as above, taking your Liberty (i.e. jailing you) without due process of law.

eanax on June 1, 2008 at 10:49 AM

May well be. Where is that from? I also wonder what the penalties were, if any, in the colonies or England for abortion back then. Will try to find out.

JiangxiDad on June 1, 2008 at 11:34 AM

Krydor, were you even alive when Reagan ran for president?

Rose on June 1, 2008 at 4:36 PM

Krydor,You don’t know as much about our country as you think. Maybe you should concern yourself more with yours. Different people vote for different reasons. There were a lot of value voters at that time. I was newly married, four years earlier I was a college student. I was more concerned about the moral environment that my future children would grow up in. I was obviously correct in being concerned.

Rose on June 1, 2008 at 4:43 PM

Krydor, were you even alive when Reagan ran for president?

Rose

Sure was. I love how I interpret something differently, and suddenly there is no way I could have even been born. He never flaunted any sort of Mike Huckabee/George W. Bush social conservatism. That’s not who he was, and you know that. Name the social conservative things he implemented as President of the USA.

He talked primarily of economics at home and the Cold War abroad. He talked of the power of the individual and limited government.

Krydor on June 1, 2008 at 4:49 PM

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