Time to return to the first principles of conservatism?
posted at 12:40 pm on May 30, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
With so many people writing about what ails conservatism, and so much disagreement, the basic tenets of conservatism seem to be overlooked. In attaching an ever-broader policy base to the first principles of conservatism, we have not added to our base but have increased our opposition. In fighting on the flanks, we have ignored the center, and as a result, have lost momentum through poor definition and irresponsible governance.
What is the first principle of conservatism? Limited government. Our founders understood this, which is why they tightly constrained the jurisdiction of the federal government in the Constitution. Henry David Thoreau famously wrote “That government is best which governs least”, and that encapsulates what has been the overarching philosophy of conservatism as applied to governance. Furthermore, it exists in opposition to and as a counterbalance for the competing philosophy of socialism, which postulates that government improves as it governs more.
These days, however, so-called conservatives in government appear more inclined to act on the latter philosophy than the former. Those running as conservatives from either party vote for ever-increasing federal roles in education, agriculture, the arts, and especially health care and retirement planning, despite the increasing deficits that the federal government has racked up. Entitlement programs will have a catastrophic collapse in the future, and instead of hitting the brakes, conservatives and progressives alike keep hitting the accelerator.
One might think that conservatives would at least recognize the perils of corruption in a bloated and overbearing federal government, distant from the oversight of individuals. Think again. The pork-barrel spending increased when so-called conservatives took power, pushed in no small measure by efforts to woo lobbyists who rely on increasing federal power and spending in order to get paid.
How did conservatives lose their way? They focused on everything but the core principle of limited government. Issues like gay marriage and mottos on coins took precedence. It’s not to say that there aren’t other issues that should concern the citizenry, but it is a matter of priorities, and the first priority of the “conservatives” who ran DC from 2001-2006 was re-election and spoils, not reducing government to a manageable and affordable level.
Take gay marriage as one example. In relation to the first principle of conservatism, why should this even be on the conservative radar screen, especially as a national issue? Instead of drumbeats for federal constitutional amendments, we should have insisted that government get out of the sacrament-recognition business. Let the churches determine the sacramental value of relationships, and let (state) governments enforce partnership contracts.
With every added issue, conservatives gain allies but also opponents. A narrow focus on reducing government would attract many more people than it repels. Most Americans believe that the federal government spends too much money, is too corrupt, is unaccountable to the citizenry, and creates massive inefficiencies. The first principle of conservative governance addresses all of that, and policies based on that principle would return both responsibilities and monies back to the states and local communities where they belong, so that citizens can more effectively oversee the issues in their own neighborhoods.
Trying to advance a broad agenda of issues that contradict the principle of limited government obviously hasn’t worked. All that produced was a spending spree that further bloated government and left the public with the impression that little difference exists between “conservatives” and “progressives” except in who gets the cash. If we tried actual, real conservatism by focusing on a return to smaller, less intrusive federal governance, the side issues will become more manageable in our communities. It would provide credibility to a movement that by its very nature should demand that government stay out of the bedroom and the boardroom and treat its citizens like sovereign adults rather than recalcitrant children unable to make their own decisions.










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I am a conservative first…fiscal, social, and foreign policy. However, on the federal level the government should concern itself with fiscal and foreign policies first, and leave the majority of the social issues to the state.
That being said, we lost Congress not because of the social conservative laws pushed, it was because of the lack of fiscal restraint and doing a horrible job on the border.
Fact of the matter is, in a perfect world marriage should not be a state issue, its a religious one. Where it gets complicated is when children are involved, namely foster care and adoptions. Kids should be put in homes with a loving father and mother. But when we selfishly think its about the relationship of the couple we fail miserably. It isn’t about gay rights, its about redefining the basic family unit so that we don’t hurt grown up feelings at the expense of the welfare of children.
But then again, moms have kids and pick up a girlfriend, should the state take the kid away? No, the state was wrong taking the kids out of the homes of polygamous families, it would be wrong if they did it to homosexual parents.
Conservative Voice on May 31, 2008 at 1:33 AM
Exactly. That’s why I struck it.
“All (white) males were created equal.“They would never have referred to our posterity as “a fertilized egg”.
Had they been faced with a decision like Roe v Wade, they would have ammended the Constitution faster than a liberal chic takes her skirt off for her new boyfriend.
Saltysam on May 31, 2008 at 1:34 AM
That is certainly not MY experience. But maybe the Sixties were not as liberal as today.
platypus on May 31, 2008 at 1:54 AM
platypus on May 31, 2008 at 1:54 AM
A liberal chic may take a little more time for a platypus. I’m not sure…
Saltysam on May 31, 2008 at 1:57 AM
Excellent post. nuff said
Black Adam on May 31, 2008 at 2:57 AM
Not entirely true.. marriage is a Religious institution but its a civil institution as well.
Watch this whole clip(especially watch Rudy’s response at the end starting at around the 3 minute mark..(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK5pAbRXj_4
Chakra Hammer on May 31, 2008 at 3:39 AM
Bravo, Ed…! Bravo…!
Rugged Individual on May 31, 2008 at 3:41 AM
A woman is an occasional pleasure but a cigar is always a smoke.
-Groucho Marx
MB4 on May 31, 2008 at 3:46 AM
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it, and then misapplying the wrong remedies.
- Groucho Marx
MB4 on May 31, 2008 at 4:06 AM
Those are my principles, and if you don’t like them… well, I have others.
- Groucho Marx
MB4 on May 31, 2008 at 4:08 AM
Why a four-year-old child could understand this report. Run out and find me a four-year-old child. I can’t make head nor tail out of it.
- Groucho Marx
MB4 on May 31, 2008 at 4:09 AM
Isn’t it a bit of a stretch to characterize Thoreau as a “conservative”? Libertarian…maybe.
Buy Danish on May 31, 2008 at 7:22 AM
If Only
some conservatives would run for office
bridgetown on May 31, 2008 at 9:10 AM
For me, this is profound. I voted for Clinton the first time. My political awakening didn’t happen until after that. I didn’t know that I had been schooled in liberalism and had drunk the Kool-Aid. I joined the Rep. party, to the shame and horror of my friends and family and community and employer, etc. But truly, I didn’t know who else was in the tent with me. I was allied in my opposition to liberalism, democrats, Clintons, etc.
Here I begin to meet my tent mates– libertarians, conservatives, religious right, Paulians, etc. Who knew there were so many areas of disagreement? So now I’ll have to decide what I am, besides being in opposition to Democrats and liberalism. Thanks for the education.
JiangxiDad on May 31, 2008 at 9:46 AM
Best post of the week!
In my view, the GOP made a contract with America back in the lead-up to the 92 election. Basic Conservative principles & values were the foundation of this contract, and the people showed the world that they support these basic principles and values by way of their votes.
What then happened; the GOP critters were lead into a trap by the all mighty MSM. The human lust for power, sex, money, and headline news proved to be too much. The GOP was lead down a path of self destruction. The Liberal media critters said “you fella’s just made promises to the people that you won’t be capable of keeping, as we will prove over time; you fella’s think you are above our deadliest weapons; we will put out the bait, and one by one you fella’s will take the bait hook, line, and sinker.” The old principle’s won out one more time. The Devils advocate; ownership of one’s soul comes easily once the soul has drank from the pool of sins. Corruption within the GOP ranks ran thick by the time we reached the new century.
Go back to the basics GOP, but this time you had better shield yourselves from the Liberals most deadly weapons. In the mean while, Liberalism continues to win huge battles here in America, gaining much ground with attacks on religion, traditional marriage, our flag, our military, freedom of speech, boy scouts; on and on and on… The true enemy within is the Liberal controlled media. This is exactly why Soros has invested so heavily in this area, and why we had better watch Murdock very closely.
Keemo on May 31, 2008 at 9:50 AM
I don’t doubt that McCain will win, not due to his strength as a politician, but due to how bad B. Hussein Obama is. But what will that mean?
I hope that there are brave Republicans who will fight McCain when he wants to dissolve our borders, close Gitmo, and fight an environmental problem that doesn’t exist. God help us.
Mojave Mark on May 31, 2008 at 10:33 AM
I’d be interested to reading any citations that support the idea that the founders would have written rights for the unborn into the U.S. Constitution.
The founders lacked the science to use the term “fertilized egg”, but some people at the time used terms like “quickening” to described when an unborn child becomes alive.
It is likely that a husband would have had as much or more say as his wife over a pregnancy. Given a concern for posterity, I’m not sure what latitude a husband might have had if his wife became pregnant through a rape or infidelity.
dedalus on May 31, 2008 at 10:53 AM
MB4
A small correction in wording and attribution:
From Rudyard Kipling’s “The Betrothed”. After being nagged by his Maggie to marry after he gives up cigars, he notes that his cigars have always been faithful, and after they are used up, there are always another string of 50 available.
Mr. Kipling notes :
“A million surplus Maggies are willing to bear the yoke;
And a woman is only a woman, but a good Cigar is a Smoke.
Light me another Cuba — I hold to my first-sworn vows.
If Maggie will have no rival, I’ll have no Maggie for Spouse.”
Or, as Walt Kelly said in Pogo – “A woman has only acumen, but a good cigar is a smoke.”
Old Country Boy on May 31, 2008 at 11:11 AM
flenser
Yeah, they all love him now. But 66% sure did not vote for him back in the day. Better check your results again. And I’m sure you did not read his speech I linked to.
Ok, 50.1% of the popular vote and 44 states carried in 1980. No need for the religious right there. The big states, like New York and California are not hotbeds of fundamentalist Christians. Wow, Jerry Falwell delivered the South…
Perhaps it was closer in 1984? Nope… 49 states carried and 58.8% of the popular vote. Absolutely no need for the religious right. Zilch.
Reagan’s speech be damned, dude. How much of the conservative Christian agenda did he adopt? The big one was and remains Abortion. How did Reagan’s SCOTUS folks do on that? Yeah.
But as I say, I’m amused that the “social cons” are both a meaningless minority (you) AND at the same time they are the evil force making the GOP march down the road to big government (most of the other people here). And in some cases, both at the same time!
In the grand scheme of things, they are meaningless. The problem is, that like the hippies in the Democratic Party, you hold disproportionate power based on numbers. The USA thinks the RNC is a party of religious fundamentalists and the actual Republican principles are lost in the noise of Gay Marriage, and Intelligent Design.
It’s why the left was in power for 13 years in Canada.
Krydor on May 31, 2008 at 11:30 AM
I wondered further how convoluted the uberliberal mind was in using Thoreau as their poster boy pre-Gore.
maverick muse on May 31, 2008 at 11:35 AM
Mojave Mark on May 31, 2008 at 10:33 AM
The only way a Pres.McCain would end up smelling like a rose would be for his entire energies to be spent fighting terrorism. If Johnny’s given any time on his hands, that maverick will hang US up to dry instead of the proverbial ‘them’. So indeed we are caught between a rock and a hard place, because who wants the worst that could happen given the menu/ballot we’re stuck with.
maverick muse on May 31, 2008 at 11:40 AM
Recognizing that marriage is a union of one man and one woman is a matter of public policy. The state has both the right and the duty to establish and promote sound public policy. This is not a matter of sanctification or sacraments; rather, it is no different than a public policy that encourages home ownership through tax regulations – although marriage is more fundamental and critical to the on-going functioning of the state.
Encouraging the natural, hard-wired, human institution of pair-bonding of opposite sexes, marriage, is the norm universally. Even in societies and cultures that have variations, such as polygamy, the concept still begins with the single pair-bond of one man and one woman. It is not religious, per se, since the natural pair-bond is recognized as the foundational family unit in even the most aggressively atheistic governments.
If we, as Americans, could have an honest discussion on the merits of extending public policy support to abnormal forms of pair-bonding without the invective of the hate-mongers calling us “homophobes” and other epithets designed to chill free speech, then perhaps we could understand that tinkering with the pair-bond imperative is not to be treated as an arcane legal issue.
Pahlavan on May 31, 2008 at 11:51 AM
If I were you, I’d start with the preamble to the US Constitution:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union,…and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Considering the compromise on slavery, the Taney decision, and the resulting war, you may have a point. Some were a bit crass when it came to extending the rights of man to living human beings. I agree, it would be interesting to speculate on the final roll call. I’d put my money on the ammendment passing, though, considering the paramount concern for the unborn.
Saltysam on May 31, 2008 at 11:52 AM
I read an argument once for a national ban on abortion that doesn’t violate federalism based upon the Declaration of Independence and the unalienable rights to LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
JiangxiDad on May 31, 2008 at 12:04 PM
I’m not sure this even applies to straight marriage. I married my wife because I love her, not because I was participating in sound public policy like recycling.
Also, I don’t believe good families are the product of public policy. Rather good families predate good government and are its foundation. It’s the job of the government to get out of the way of families, not feel that families are a government product.
dedalus on May 31, 2008 at 12:10 PM
Read their journals and correspondences for any citations supporting their committed observance of life from conception. THEY did not suffer the schizophrenic mindset that besets today’s conveniences. To project our contemporary lack of standards onto the mid-18th Century would be as stupid as claiming that their art was for art’s sake.
maverick muse on May 31, 2008 at 12:14 PM
dedalus on May 31, 2008 at 12:10 PM
I agree.
maverick muse on May 31, 2008 at 12:16 PM
Excuse me, but both the Greek and Roman empires were over-run. They were sentimentally resurrected during the “enlightenment” in a failed attempt to replace the Christian foundation of civilization that still flourishes today. So make no mistake: both the Greek and Roman empires failed to achieve a lasting civilization; they failed I say, as a result of their defects. And the primary defect, in my opinion, was the insufficiency of their popular philosophical outlooks: epicurianism (greek) and stoicism (roman), i.e., the idea that (1) there is no foundation for law or virtue except hedonism (“happiness”) on one hand, and (2) coarse materialism/pragmatism on the other. In modern times we call this defective and insufficient philosophy libertarianism.
Like its predecessors, libertarianism will weaken and ultimately destroy us too, unless it, like its Greek and Roman predecessors, forges a synthesis with Judeo-Christian moral principles. Otherwise, pure libertarianism lacks a true animating principle.
jeff_from_mpls on May 31, 2008 at 12:20 PM
Pahlavan on May 31, 2008 at 11:51 AM
That may well be. But once the state dictates PC, there’s no stopping it. Take the legislation on “hate crimes” for example, what’s the point of making one population more relevant than another, or one individual more important in the eyes of the law than another person? It’s not only stupid, it completely makes the ideal of justice a travesty.
maverick muse on May 31, 2008 at 12:20 PM
Yeah, Rome was such a failure that it lastest 1000 years or so, and gave rise to both the HRE, Catholic Church, and Eastern Roman Empire…. and actualy Rome WAS Christian towards the end, you know, when it did fail?
America, founded on other principals, is now the oldest existing government which has not radicly altered form… and its only a bit over 200 years old, but is failing, as all democracies do, over loose fiscal policy.
Romeo13 on May 31, 2008 at 12:37 PM
I would not agree with that statement. In my studies, the Enlightenment was not an attempt to replace Christianity with ancient Greek or Roman standards. It was, however, the period during which the best that the ancients produced enjoyed the attention and aesthetic immersion by European intellectuals who would subsequently immerse themselves in Eastern culture. So far as I understand, the idea of “replacing” was not the intent. Appreciation of knowledge does not require replacing what was with the new style. Styles are merely the expression of the moment. Goethe’s evolution did not require forfeiture of Christianity in order to enjoy knowledge, so far as my studies led me to think.
I do agree with you that the Christian foundation of civilization does still exist today. That’s one reason to pay good attention to the Pope, whether Catholic or not. And the Pope enjoys good company with Fathers of the Christian Faith across the world. I did not just state that the Pope is the Christian foundation of civilization, that would be the life and word of Jesus. The true foundation is in the heart of each person where faith and love prevail.
maverick muse on May 31, 2008 at 12:39 PM
Thanks. I’ll look more closely at the correspondences. With regard to “Art for Art’s Sake”, in the U.S. you could go back to Edgar Allen Poe’s “The Poetic Principle”. Across the Atlantic you could find “Art’s Sake” origins in the Romantic movement.
dedalus on May 31, 2008 at 12:44 PM
Actualy, no. This is the major premise of the experiment we call the USA. The STATE has no rights. It has clearly defined POWERS, but rules at the behest of the people.
People, individuals, have Rights… The State has no right to dictate morality, and only has the power because the Feds have taken those powers UnConstitutionaly unto itself.
Using Tax code to promote a specific lifestyle? In the origional constitution the ONLY Federal tax had to be approtioned… ie… you could not do that. It was specificly written into the Constitution, so that Congress could NOT dictate in that manner…
Romeo13 on May 31, 2008 at 12:45 PM
You would note that all governments with loose fiscal policy fail, whether monarchy, corporate fascist, communist, theocratic, empire, republic or democracy, big or small business or even personal portfolio. “It’s the tick” as the early 20th Century Germans put it when the young “financed” wealth via debt with interest.
maverick muse on May 31, 2008 at 12:46 PM
That was the point. We can’t correctly impose one era’s aesthetic ideal upon another where it does not apply.
maverick muse on May 31, 2008 at 12:49 PM
Very interesting comment. Is libertarianism the same as classical liberalism? How does today’s liberalism fit in your sentence?
In modern times we call this defective and insufficient philosophy libertarianism.
JiangxiDad on May 31, 2008 at 12:54 PM
So far as experience has taught, once revisionism starts there’s no stopping the give an inch they take the town routine.
maverick muse on May 31, 2008 at 12:54 PM
Or course, there is none. Only the undead ‘living constitution’ justices can find such rights. If one wishes to fix rules as to at what stage of gestation a fetus acquires an inalienable right to be born, that is, when it is to be considered a full fledged human being then such legislation should be introduced and debated. This line of attack might be more fruitful then the current negative attacks perceived as the removal of a woman’s right.
Annar on May 31, 2008 at 12:54 PM
Problem is that a Monarchy, Dictatorship, or Socialist Government has a chance to “fix” fiscal policy once it starts to go the wrong way. Because power stems from somthing other than a popularity contest, they can do somthing unpopular to fix the system.
Democracies cannot. The outcry from the electorate once you begin to take away public largess makes it impossible for any Elected Official to remain in power (and knowing this, they don’t even try).
Add in, as we have now, the blatant buying of popularity with things like the latest Farm Bill… or the shell game of giving us a “rebate” to make it look like the elected officials are doing somthing… and the problem snowballs out of control.
Romeo13 on May 31, 2008 at 1:01 PM
.
Such legislation need not be introduced and debated to “prove” anything. The only thing that would prove is a lack of understanding that life is itself life at all stages of life, and that when life is extinguished at any stage that it is extinguished.
maverick muse on May 31, 2008 at 1:03 PM
Do you have a sense of how fast the end will come, and when?
JiangxiDad on May 31, 2008 at 1:03 PM
Quite so. However, since there is much confusion about what you wrote, we could use some laws, minus the debate :) Religious people don’t need them, but for those of us who need to learn about what unalienable rights are, some instruction and laws might help.
JiangxiDad on May 31, 2008 at 1:15 PM
Within a generation. We have too many unfunded mandates that will destroy the economy. With the Baby Boomer Social Security bubble, the only chance we have is what the Fed Res Bank already started doing, devalue the dollar.
Of course, that means less Worth for the set amount already promised to us in law… so it will work until the electorate figures out that Soc Sec means poverty.
Of course, devalueing the dollar while not having enough internal energy produced will destroy our economy as the trade deficit skyrockets… but we have too many folks in charge, who have no coherent plan… they are just trying to stay in power…
US Gov bankrupcty will be accelerated by a mandate for Health Care, and any type of Socialist Green global warming CO2 cap and trade system…
The problem is typified by the fact that we won’t drill for oil here… shortsighted and stupid, but can’t be done politicly because we have created a green power base which the Politicians are beholden to.
Romeo13 on May 31, 2008 at 1:18 PM
Krydor
I think it’s pretty clear at this point that you neither know nor care what Reagan thought and did, and that your idea would have been more aptly expressed as “Reagan be dammed, dude”. I’m quite sure that you STILL did not read the speech.
The standard attitude of a witless HAer. The South is just supposed to vote Republican. And you display your deep ignorance of Republican politics when you conflate “fundamentalist Christians” with “social conservatives”. The reason Reagan carried all those states outside the south was because “social conservatives” were up in arms over things like urban violence and busing. Reagan specifically mentions these things in that speech you don’t give a damm about.
Are you trying to say that Reagan deliberately appointed justices who he knew would not vote to overturn Roe? You’re just being obnoxious, Krydor, you are no more capable of rational thought than any other liberal.
Have I pointed out yet that you are an incoherent moron?
If in fact the USA thinks that, it’s because ignorant bigots like you keep repeating the lie.
No, the left were in power for thirteen years in Canada because Canada is a pretty left-wing country. And if you have your way, the US will be the same. The politics of the parts of America you like (the parts outside the South) are the same as in Canada.
flenser on May 31, 2008 at 1:20 PM
jeff_from_mpls on May 31, 2008 at 12:20 PM
Wrong, talk about a rewrite of history. Rome fell because of pride. They thought they would always be great, so were not fiscally responsible and hired more and more foreigners to do the job that Romans weren’t willing to do ( including the military ). Sound familiar…let me spell it out to you in modern terms, they didn’t manage the border nor were they fiscally responsible.
Chakra Hammer on May 31, 2008 at 3:39 AM
Duh, I know its a civil institution, which was my point…I was saying it shouldn’t be a civil institution. The state can manage contracts between people, and leave the idea of marriage to the church.
Conservative Voice on May 31, 2008 at 1:34 PM
Well, I just checked out Krydor’s blog, and his near total ignorance of American politics is explained. He’s Canadian.
Take off, eh!
flenser on May 31, 2008 at 1:35 PM
I think it’s pretty clear at this point that you neither know nor care what Reagan thought and did, and that your idea would have been more aptly expressed as “Reagan be dammed, dude”. I’m quite sure that you STILL did not read the speech.
Flenser,
You said check the numbers, and I posted them. You have no reply. Sorry if it bothers you that the Christian Coalition was irrelevant with regards to both of Ronald Reagan’s elections. I can’t change history so that it matches your fable. Reagan won without you and appealed to a broad cross section of society. Get used to it. Bush won with you, and that worked out well.
Are you trying to say that Reagan deliberately appointed justices who he knew would not vote to overturn Roe? You’re just being obnoxious, Krydor, you are no more capable of rational thought than any other liberal.
Nope, I’m saying that Reagan couldn’t implement a single Christian Coalition plank under any guise. He was elected on a low tax/small government/states rights platform.
Have I pointed out yet that you are an incoherent moron?
Nice ad hominem. The fact is that Christian Conservatives hold far too much power in proportion to their actual impact. The thing that killed the Democrats in 2000 & 2004 rested on appeasing their moron base of lame hippies. What will kill the Republicans is much the same dynamic. Look at some of the Fundies running around wanting Huck as VP.
However, they don’t care. It’s not about the party, it’s about them.
No, the left were in power for thirteen years in Canada because Canada is a pretty left-wing country. And if you have your way, the US will be the same. The politics of the parts of America you like (the parts outside the South) are the same as in Canada.
Nope, the Liberal Party took well over half the seats with less than half the vote. The combined vote of the Progressive Conservatives & Reform/Alliance was greater. Because of two parties, we got far less seats. In the end, we set aside our differences and came back to power.
I sure hope you don’t decide to teach the party a lesson, because you’ll be in much the same boat. You’ve lost what is fundamental to conservatism.
Krydor on May 31, 2008 at 1:41 PM
I have envisioned that scenario as well. I think about where to live and how to be invested in order to minimize the coming damage.
btw, I have this theory that we are, in effect, back on the gold standard. Hear me out. It is now so easy and cheap to buy gold, that anyone here can now exchange all their dollar holdings for gold, for small commissions. I’ve done that for some of my money. I could do it for all. More people are doing it.
I also invest in commodities. That also mitigates against the danger of the falling dollar. I don’t count SS or Medicaire in my retirement planning. Realistically, I’d expect to get perhaps half of what’s promised. Add to that trying to save and invest every last cent, and it seems like a plan.
JiangxiDad on May 31, 2008 at 1:43 PM
Well, I just checked out Krydor’s blog, and his near total ignorance of American politics is explained. He’s Canadian.
Take off, eh!
flenser
Um, I said I was Canadian in this very thread. I’ve never said nor claimed different. I can’t help it if I know more about the elections of both Bush and Reagan than you do.
Krydor on May 31, 2008 at 1:45 PM
As I say, you don’t have the faintest idea what you are talking about. The fact that you were not even born at the time is hardly an excuse.
You would not repeatedly make yourself look like a loud mouthed idiot if you’d only read Reagans own words. He actually quotes the GOP platform, and it’s pointedly NOT simply a “low tax/small government” platform, those not being the main issues of the time.
But it is not an ad hominem. You repeatedly insist both that the “social cons” have power because of their numbers, and that they are a tiny and unimportant minority. And you seem unable to notice that you are contradicting yourself even when it’s pointed out to you.
America is not Canada, Krydor. Not yet, and not until people like you in America are able to get their way.
You don’t the slightest clue what is fundamental to conservatism.
flenser on May 31, 2008 at 1:51 PM
Good move going into things with intrinsic worth… because they will HAVE to continue to devalue the dollar, its the only way they hope to pay for Soc Sec…
Problem is that the rest of peoples savings and retirement stuff is devalued as well… and if they devalue enough to tank the economy… everyone with investments gets hurt.
I think Washington is just putting a finger in the dike, instead of fixing the dang dam… they really have no clue.
Romeo13 on May 31, 2008 at 1:52 PM
I think the US$ (especially against the Euro) is a better value than gold, given their relative prices. In the short term the price of oil scares me–this coming week is likely to be very volatile with probably more downward than upward pressure. That said, though, longer term, diversifying out of the US dollar and using oil as a currency has appeal.
dedalus on May 31, 2008 at 1:59 PM
Since our friend from the Great White North is unwilling to read the link I posted, I’ll quote it extensively, in the hope that shoving it before his eyeballs will force some information into his torpid synapses.
Linky.
flenser on May 31, 2008 at 2:01 PM
On the first point selective abortions could result in many more females than males. (The Chinese are doing just that with females being aborted, an unintended consequence of the one child rule.) If this were to go on for a while the females would revolt and reverse the process with the idea of setting up a polyandrous society.Obviously these scemnarios are ridiculous but so is the whole idea of the government trying to play enforcer for what many consider religious truth.
As to the second point I think that government can play the role of arbiter through its judicial system for civil union contracts between individuals but its role should stop there. The word ‘marriage’ should be removed from civil law and replaced by civil union. Such unions would be permissible between whoever wants such bi or multi-party contracts. This same rewriting of the laws should also include the elimination of any and all tax breaks accorded as recognition of such unions. The money thus saved should be redirected to the children by way of their designated guardian (always singular) and, in the future, guardianship would be decided at birth or at adoption.
Those who wish to do so may get their union sanctioned as a marriage by their cult but such ceremonies would have no legal standing.
Annar on May 31, 2008 at 2:11 PM
I think otherwise, for reasons I already explained. You provide no justification for your course of action.
I give you credit for taking your idea to its logical conclusion, as destructive as that conclusion may be.
I hope you understand that this a a political pipe-dream. It’s not going to happen.
Plato and Rousseau would approve, I’m sure. Perhaps you cribbed it from them. But it’s collectivism and individualism taken to their ultimate end point – the totalitarian state.
No, only your cult would have any legal standing, the cult of the state.
flenser on May 31, 2008 at 2:23 PM
flenser on May 31, 2008 at 2:01 PM
I don’t see how any of that contradicts what Ed had to say.
Cut back on pork, limit government, leave social issues to society (not to government). What is so controversial about that?
RightOFLeft on May 31, 2008 at 2:50 PM
We warned of things to come, of the danger inherent in unwarranted government involvement in things not its proper province. What we warned against has come to pass. And today more than two-thirds of our citizens are telling us, and each other, that social engineering by the federal government has failed. The Great Society is great only in power, in size and in cost. And so are the problems it set out to solve. Freedom has been diminished and we stand on the brink of economic ruin.
Our task now is not to sell a philosophy, but to make the majority of Americans, who already share that philosophy, see that modern conservatism offers them a political home. We are not a cult, we are members of a majority. Let’s act and talk like it.
The job is ours and the job must be done. If not by us, who? If not now, when?
Bingo!
Keemo on May 31, 2008 at 2:59 PM
I forgot to make my main point about gold. Since it’s so easy for anyone to switch out of dollars into gold, that puts a brake on the Fed’s ability to print too much money, or otherwise do things to devalue the currency. Go too far, and no one will hold it. This is a built-in mechanism now that can help slow the pace of devaluation. For ex, as Dedalus pointed out above, oil and gold may have shot too high and the dollar may now be undervalued–at least temporarily. That’s my take anyhow.
JiangxiDad on May 31, 2008 at 3:00 PM
Do the majority of Americans still believe that? Do they even know anything about it anymore?
JiangxiDad on May 31, 2008 at 3:03 PM
Actually my idea favors individual choice and minimizes he government role to its only real concern, the well-being of children. I have read Rousseau (in the original French) and what he has to say merits some attention by serious minded people but it has little to do with my own views.
I suppose that your last statement is a feeble attempt at humor (D-).
Annar on May 31, 2008 at 3:11 PM
You are one sick freak…I guess that’s just proof of what atheism produces.
SaintOlaf on May 31, 2008 at 3:23 PM
O my, your mommy forgot the parental controls again!
Annar on May 31, 2008 at 3:37 PM
That’s why I like you so much hillbillyjim.
flenser, I believe that you are either a Paul voter, or more likely an Obama one, in some disguise.
Entelechy on May 31, 2008 at 3:56 PM
When it has the same set of DNA that it does as a baby, child, adult and senior… in other words, conception.
dominigan on May 31, 2008 at 4:57 PM
Entelechy
I strongly encourage you to attempt to describe your own beliefs, if you figure out what they are, and stop worrying that I’m a Paul supporter or Obama supporter in disguise. As you should have noticed by now, I’m not bashful when it comes to telling people where I’m coming from. Try it yourself sometime.
If you are really one of the brighter commenters on this site, then it badly needs some new blood.
On a positive note, at least you’ve graduated from telling me how amused you are.
flenser on May 31, 2008 at 5:05 PM
Annar
I’d say your French is in need of some remedial work then.
No, it’s a recognition of the fact that individualism and collectivism go hand in hand, both in theory (you’re read Rousseau, right?) and in practice.
Let’s quote the man, in English.
flenser on May 31, 2008 at 5:14 PM
RightofLeft
It was a response to another commenter, not directly to Ed, though I suppose it applies to him also. And it was a long quote, so perhaps you somehow missed this part.
Government is how society expresses its will. Government is already heavily mixed up with “social issues” and has been for a long time, at least as far back as the Civil War, which was fought over a “social issue”.
flenser on May 31, 2008 at 5:20 PM
As I say, you don’t have the faintest idea what you are talking about. The fact that you were not even born at the time is hardly an excuse.
Oh brother. So, even though none of the hard data supports your opinion, you continue on. Reagan won TWO landslide victories. Now you attack my age, even though you have no idea how old I am?
You would not repeatedly make yourself look like a loud mouthed idiot if you’d only read Reagans own words. He actually quotes the GOP platform, and it’s pointedly NOT simply a “low tax/small government” platform, those not being the main issues of the time.
Yes, sigh, if only… If only… Whatever shall I do? Reagan’s own words indeed. You have not a clue. Reagan ran on what Reagan ran on, which was what I said. Are you really that unaware?
But it is not an ad hominem. You repeatedly insist both that the “social cons” have power because of their numbers, and that they are a tiny and unimportant minority. And you seem unable to notice that you are contradicting yourself even when it’s pointed out to you.
Power disproportionate to their numbers. Are the words too big? I’m at a loss. See, I just called you stupid.
America is not Canada, Krydor. Not yet, and not until people like you in America are able to get their way.
Sigh… Never said it was. What I said was that unless the Republicans get their house in order, you will not have a say in policy for the forseeable future. How hard is that to fathom?
You don’t the slightest clue what is fundamental to conservatism.
flenser
Nope, not at all. Enjoy the wilderness.
Krydor on May 31, 2008 at 5:32 PM
Je dirais que vous avez de problèmes en français et en anglais. Je n’ai jamais dit que j’étais de son avis sur tout et il a écrit beaucoup plus que le petit extrait que vous avez cité.
Annar on May 31, 2008 at 6:09 PM
Dear flenser,
I’m not worried about whom you are for, or against.
I’m bashful.
I’m not one of the brighter ones here, as you so aptly identified. Au contraire, I’m one of the slower ones. I bow completely to the wisdom of your kind, and try to learn, as as fast as I’m able. I beg for your indulgence.
It’s a good thing that you don’t determine who comments here. You seem to look down on those who’re not of your caliber.
My beliefs are all over in the history of HA. I can’t give you more, out of fear.
Sorry to disappoint you, but I’m always amused. It’s in the nature of the slow people. We’re dumb and happy.
Entelechy on May 31, 2008 at 6:13 PM
What is the quality of DNA that makes tantamount to a person? How is a single cell with DNA more like a person than an organ awaiting transplant? The organ has far more DNA.
dedalus on May 31, 2008 at 6:21 PM
Then your obsessive speculation on the matter is even more odd.
That’s good. I’ll try to slow things down for you.
Fear is the mind killer.
flenser on May 31, 2008 at 6:26 PM
Annar on May 31, 2008 at 6:09 PM
Annar, flenser is not only a polyglot, he’s an omniglot. Bow now, or else you will lose. Just read his wise comments, and learn.
Entelechy on May 31, 2008 at 6:27 PM
Thank you flenser. Now I finally know why I’m so slow.
p.s. you can be for or against anyone. I believe that to be totally an individual choice.
Entelechy on May 31, 2008 at 6:30 PM
I don’t see how you deduce from this that social conservatives were not important. Maybe it’s your bizarre belief that they are a tiny minority, and so could not have made the difference.
So here is some “hard data ” for you, and for Morrisey. In 2000, at the same time as California was voting for Al Gore, the voters there passed Proposition 22 by a majority of 61.5%. This specifically said that marriage in CA was to be between one man and one woman.
In California, a pretty liberal state. So spare me this mindless nonsense about how “social conservatives” are this tiny band of trouble makers who lack any political clout. The only part of the GOP’s platform which has any degree of public support is it’s social conservative stance.
The idea that the GOP should drop it’s opposition to gay marriage is political suicide, and it’s a sign of how utterly out of touch the posters and commenters on this site are that it’s even being discussed.
So tell me then, what did Reagan run on? Because you seemed to be insisting earlier that social conservatism was not a part of it.
See the results of the state ballot initiatives regarding gay marriage. It sure looks as if they do indeed have “power disproportionate to their numbers”. Based on their numbers, they should have a lot more power. But both parties are pretty hostile to social conservatism.
You’ll have to explain to me why we need a lecture on getting our house in order from a non-American liberal.
flenser on May 31, 2008 at 6:43 PM
How very generous of you. And I give you, too, permission to be for or against anyone you like.
flenser on May 31, 2008 at 6:46 PM
I look down on those who eschew getting involved in the debate, prefering to sit on the sidelines flinging poo at the players. You know, people like you.
flenser on May 31, 2008 at 6:56 PM
flenser, miraculously, via the e-means, you’ve identified something all who know me in person say, namely that I’m a timid, wussified, sideliner on most issues, life or politics.
p.s. I wasn’t flinging anything at you, but if you noticed something coming your way, and were not able to ignore it, you must seek help, or simply learn to deal with it.
Entelechy on May 31, 2008 at 7:11 PM
I broke down and googled “hot air Entelechy”. I’m afraid you are not as famous as you seem to think. There was very little there.
I did turn up an Entelechy commenting at Common Dreams. Any relation?
I think I’ll start ignoring you when you start ignoring me. Why do I suspect I won’t be ignoring you?
flenser on May 31, 2008 at 7:16 PM
You’ll have to explain to me why we need a lecture on getting our house in order from a non-American liberal.
flenser
Those who don’t learn from history are bound to repeat it. We lost our way, we went to the wilderness. You lost yours, the result will be the same. If 2006 wasn’t a wakeup call, then I don’t know what to tell you.
What was Reagan running on? How about you listen to the man himself? Sounds like social conservatism to me… Wait, no it doesn’t. Sounds like some kind of economic thing. Well, who knows? It’s so darn vague! Small government? Taxes? Reaching across the aisle? HE’S A MADMAN!!! Two parts, by the way.
It was the economy, stupid. That’s what drove the election. Had you been alive, you would have known. The only people who seriously credit the Christian Coalition for being kingmakers is the Christian Coalition.
The only part of the GOP’s platform which has any degree of public support is it’s social conservative stance.
Yes, indeed. Which is why they did so well in the last midterm election. Wait, what? They were badly damaged because they spent like drunken sailors and increased the size of government? You don’t say, and you don’t because you live in this crazy revisionist world.
See the results of the state ballot initiatives regarding gay marriage. It sure looks as if they do indeed have “power disproportionate to their numbers”. Based on their numbers, they should have a lot more power. But both parties are pretty hostile to social conservatism.
Add one more thing to the list of crap you don’t understand. No idea about Reagan, basic conservatism and not a clue about social conservatives. It’s rather sad that I have to educate you on one more thing.
Krydor on May 31, 2008 at 7:24 PM
Dear flenser,
Your search skills are not very good, but I’m too slow to help you. However, I don’t think myself to be famous at all. If I were, I’d write a book and attempt to sell it, for profit.
I’m not the other entelechies. I only comment here and on the Michelle Malkin thread, though very rarely. Don’t have time for more than this. Remember, I’m very slow.
You may ignore me or not. Same here. It’s a free country, and blog.
Entelechy on May 31, 2008 at 7:26 PM
Let us not leave out that real conservatives do not get elected. Being called a far left extremist to the public has far softer connotations than being called a conservative.
Hening on May 31, 2008 at 7:26 PM
Hening on May 31, 2008 at 7:26 PM
Yeah, right. That’s why noone wants to be labeled a liberal when they are trying to get elected, and everyone else brags that they’re conservative in hopes that people will believe them.
Softer connotations. Gimme a break.
Saltysam on May 31, 2008 at 7:55 PM
His mastered languages must be in the Klingon family. I see, however, that neither French nor English are in his domain of expertise. As to the question of form he seems to have developed an advanced case of St. Olafitis; difficult to treat.
Annar on May 31, 2008 at 8:44 PM
I see you know as much about politics as you do about evolution….zero, zilch, nada.
right4life on May 31, 2008 at 9:05 PM
thats for sure, thats why christians are sitting out the elections, and why they lost in 2006, and will lose in 2008. Dobson won’t support mccain, and neither will I.
telling christians we have no place else to go is a losing proposition. I’m just passing through….what happens to the US is not that important in the long term….I’ve read the back of the book, and US ain’t there. the days of the US as a superpower are fading…
right4life on May 31, 2008 at 9:09 PM
Likely true, though it has enough wealth and momentum to outlast, minimally, you, me, our children, our grandchildren, our great grandchildren.
dedalus on May 31, 2008 at 9:30 PM
right4life on May 31, 2008 at 9:09 PM
So you aren’t supporting McCain because of Dobson? I can think of better reasons.
In any case I am growing tired with certain “Christians” who think they know what it means to be a conservative…aka Mike Huckabee, yet have no clue what it means to be a conservative ( because they think Mike is one ). There is more to being a conservative than abortion and gay marriage ( * I am against abortion and gay marriage ). Just being against abortion and gay marriage doesn’t make one a conservative.
Fact of the matter is, when you have limited and smaller governments, the abortions and gay marriage things work themselves out…on a local level. It is more important to have a fiscal and foreign policy conservative on the federal level than a social conservative, but it would also be wrong if we totally neglected the social conservative agenda. People who think its just the economy, and that the reason why we lost was because we focused on Gay marriage have it backwards. It isn’t one or the other…its both, rather its all three. What killed the Republicans is they neglected their responsibility when it came to taxes and spending, not because they listed to the Christian right.
Conservative Voice on May 31, 2008 at 9:59 PM
I voted for Reagan twice and I voted for him because of his social conservative views. Everyone I knew at the time saw him as socially conservative and supported him for that reason. And I live in California. We knew who he was.
Rose on May 31, 2008 at 10:47 PM
Michelle, whatever you are paying Ed, you’re getting your money’s worth.
Keep up the good work. And more back-to-basics stuff like this!
JamesP on June 1, 2008 at 4:45 AM
“Limited government” means the minimum required to safeguard the nation, not so little that everything is left to the individual. The latter is called anarchy.
Therefore the state must be involved in such things as national defense, since that is required to maintain the nation’s future. Similarly the state must also be involved in marriage, since marriage provides the healthiest environment for raising children, and children determine the future of the nation.
And incidentally, it has nothing to do with “sacrament-recognition”. If it did, the state would not recognize common-law marriages, marriages between atheists, etc. It has to do with a binding oath for two potential parents to stay together so that any children they foster can have a stable home with both a mother and a father.
Make marriage about some kind of expression of mutual affection, instead of about kids, and you ruin the whole notion of marriage. Just take a look at the rate of single parenthood in countries (i.e. Scandinavia) where this shift in emphasis was made some time ago.
Do a little research, Morissey, read an encyclical or two, and stop talking about sacraments when you haven’t the faintest clue what you’re talking about.
Gaunilon on June 1, 2008 at 5:10 AM
The problem with the argument is that it’s not soundly based on historical context and what the Founders were concerned with when they authored the DoI. When the Founders referred to and agreed to the following passage from The Declaration of Independence…
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
…with regard to “Life” they were referring not only to their experiences with the King of England but also to historical actions of Kings and Tyrants of the past. Meaning, a King or tyrant did not have the right to immediately order the taking of your head with a flick of the wrist without due process.
And “Liberty” refers to the King or Tyrant, in the same context as above, taking your Liberty (i.e. jailing you) without due process of law.
eanax on June 1, 2008 at 10:49 AM
That may well be, but he ran twice on the economy. Remember “are you better off than you were 4 years ago?”
right4life
Christ has appeared on a tortilla in southern Mexico, why don’t you go check it out?
Krydor on June 1, 2008 at 11:23 AM
May well be. Where is that from? I also wonder what the penalties were, if any, in the colonies or England for abortion back then. Will try to find out.
JiangxiDad on June 1, 2008 at 11:34 AM
Krydor, were you even alive when Reagan ran for president?
Rose on June 1, 2008 at 4:36 PM
Krydor,You don’t know as much about our country as you think. Maybe you should concern yourself more with yours. Different people vote for different reasons. There were a lot of value voters at that time. I was newly married, four years earlier I was a college student. I was more concerned about the moral environment that my future children would grow up in. I was obviously correct in being concerned.
Rose on June 1, 2008 at 4:43 PM
Krydor, were you even alive when Reagan ran for president?
Rose
Sure was. I love how I interpret something differently, and suddenly there is no way I could have even been born. He never flaunted any sort of Mike Huckabee/George W. Bush social conservatism. That’s not who he was, and you know that. Name the social conservative things he implemented as President of the USA.
He talked primarily of economics at home and the Cold War abroad. He talked of the power of the individual and limited government.
Krydor on June 1, 2008 at 4:49 PM
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