French court annuls Muslim marriage because wife wasn’t a virgin

posted at 1:41 pm on May 30, 2008 by Allahpundit

Via Robert Jago. At first glance I thought this was one of those cases involving a contract written according to shari’a principles and then enforced by a civil court as any contract might be. Those pop up from time to time even in the U.S. and always elicit some grumbling, although they usually have to do with financial arrangements — inheritance, say, or loans — and not the more “colorful” aspects of shari’a, so no one much cares. This would have been different had it been the same thing. But it isn’t. There’s no shari’a contract here from what I can tell. They got married under regular ol’ French law, which provides for an annulment in cases where one spouse is guilty of deceiving the other about some “essential quality.” (Breach of the standard state marriage contract, in other words.) Evidently, virginity now qualifies as an “essential quality”:

The decision by a court in Lille has triggered outrage from the Government, media, feminists and rights organisations since it surfaced in a legal journal on Thursday. Patrick Devedjian, leader of the ruling Union for a Popular Movement, said that it was unacceptable that the law could be used for religious reasons to repudiate a bride. It must be modified “to put an end to this extremely disturbing situation”, he said…

The annulment was defended by Xavier Labbée, the lawyer for Ms Y. The decision was justified because of the bride’s deception, not her virginity, he said. “Quite simply it is about a lie,” he said. “The groom realised that his wife had not told him the truth. Religion did not motivate the decision … but it is true that religious convictions played a role.”

I can’t tell from the reports whether the court applied an objective or subjective standard in deciding that virginity is essential, and I also can’t decide which would be worse. If it’s subjective, i.e. if the question is “does this particular husband regard it as essential,” then the court’s potentially building out a separate legal track for Muslims and/or anyone else who might culturally place a greater value on virginity than the French do generally. If it’s objective, i.e. if the question is “would any reasonable husband regard it as essential,” then this becomes valid grounds for any Frenchman to seek an annulment and Europe’s most famously permissive culture will have taken a mighty nuanced turn. Follow the link to the Times of London and read through to see how the incentives flowing from the decision are being gamed out: Feminists say, correctly, that this is only going to encourage Muslim women to seek hymenoplasties while “Liberation” argues (ironically) that this could be a useful legal escape hatch for women subjected to arranged marriages. The way to undo this lickety split, of course, would be for a court to uphold the ruling — and extend it so that it applies equally to men. Chastity until marriage on penalty of annulment? The French parliament would have a new bill ready within a week.


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Comment pages: 1 2

Note that the court annulled the marriage not because the woman was not a virgin but because she said she was even though she was not. In other words, it’s about the lying, not about the premarital sex.

factoid on May 30, 2008 at 1:48 PM

French + Muslim = very bad combination.

Grafted on May 30, 2008 at 1:48 PM

Holy smoked sausage!

kcd on May 30, 2008 at 1:49 PM

How long until we hear the news story relating the “honor” murder of this “deceitful whore?” woman?

Not every broken or missing hymen is evidence of sexual activity. I get the feeling Muslim men aren’t aware of that fact.

Anna on May 30, 2008 at 1:49 PM

Heh. I fully support this idea, as long as it’s tied to BOTH genders. I may be old fashioned, but I wouldn’t have married my wife if she wasn’t a virgin (aside from some unfortunate thing like a rape), nor would I have expected her to marry me if I hadn’t been. That’s not hypocritical at all.

What I’m saying here is if you want the best girl, guys, you have to be the kind of guy a girl like that wants. Few virgin girls want to marry a guy who’s forgotten how many ladies he’s had. At least, the ones I’ve known in that situation (and yes, I DO know a fair number–we aren’t all New Yorkers in this country. )

As for the problem of Muslim marriages getting rules others don’t have; well, that’s an issue I struggle with.

Vanceone on May 30, 2008 at 1:49 PM

Google “hymen restoration”. This girl needs internet service.

JiangxiDad on May 30, 2008 at 1:50 PM

I should add the woman shouldn’t have lied about it. It just makes things worse for those women who don’t lie about it, but fail to bleed on the marital sheets.

Anna on May 30, 2008 at 1:51 PM

Hah. I bet the groom told the bride he was a stud in bed too. How about letting us gals annul marriages for THAT deception?

rockmom on May 30, 2008 at 1:52 PM

The annulment was defended by Xavier Labbée, the lawyer for Ms Y. The decision was justified because of the bride’s deception, not her virginity, he said.

I don’t know. This seems kinda Hooky.

Let me ask the men, is it that important (for those whom are religous) for a woman to be a virgin when they get married?

It seems double standards are in order… but that is my opinion.

upinak on May 30, 2008 at 1:53 PM

Hah. I bet the groom told the bride he was a stud in bed too. How about letting us gals annul marriages for THAT deception?

rockmom on May 30, 2008 at 1:52 PM

Ok Ok.. the coffee is on my screen! Thanks for the laugh!

upinak on May 30, 2008 at 1:54 PM

How long until we hear the news story relating the “honor” murder of this “deceitful whore?” woman?

Not every broken or missing hymen is evidence of sexual activity. I get the feeling Muslim men aren’t aware of that fact.

Anna on May 30, 2008 at 1:49 PM

As long as they don’t hunt her down for “punishment” or slaughter, I’m gonna guess she’ll be much better off not being married to this winner.

funky chicken on May 30, 2008 at 1:55 PM

winner weiner.

funky chicken on May 30, 2008 at 1:55 PM

fixed :P

upinak on May 30, 2008 at 1:56 PM

Anna on May 30, 2008 at 1:51 PM

True, but, if your male relatives are likely to slit your throat if it turns out you’re not a virgin, I can see why you might be inclined to lie.

JadeNYU on May 30, 2008 at 1:57 PM

JadeNYU on May 30, 2008 at 1:57 PM

Oh, I know. I guess I’m surprised she told the truth in court. It made her look pretty bad in front of her own family.

Anna on May 30, 2008 at 2:00 PM

winner weiner.

funky chicken on May 30, 2008 at 1:55 PM

fixed :P

upinak on May 30, 2008 at 1:56 PM

No, it s/b wiener – that’s fixed now (just for you funky :)

Entelechy on May 30, 2008 at 2:04 PM

Good for her…I think a lot more Muslim marriages ought to be annulled.

(Except for the chance of that honor killing BS, of course.)

James on May 30, 2008 at 2:06 PM

Does the bridegroom have to return the goats received as inducement?

Sgt. Hartman on May 30, 2008 at 2:06 PM

Let me ask the men, is it that important (for those whom are religous) for a woman to be a virgin when they get married?

upinak on May 30, 2008 at 1:53 PM

nop, jus that they be womans. ;)

kirkill on May 30, 2008 at 2:06 PM

As an addendum, we have heard of pre-nups here in the US with ‘allowable weight-gain’ clauses…which is more ridiculous?

James on May 30, 2008 at 2:09 PM

Lola, LoLoLoLo Lola, LoLoLoLoLola

funky chicken on May 30, 2008 at 2:09 PM

Anna on May 30, 2008 at 2:00 PM

arrainged marriage from the sound of it, and she wasn’t having it.

upinak on May 30, 2008 at 2:09 PM

Entelechy on May 30, 2008 at 2:04 PM

crap, dyslexia strikes again!

upinak on May 30, 2008 at 2:10 PM

upinak: It depends, but for me, it’s important for both parties to be morally clean–usually in practice, a virgin. Those who aren’t need to have fully repented, which is hard, of course. It’s better to be safe rather than sorry. :)

And that includes the guys, too. My sisters tried to marry virgin guys as well (yes, they DO exist!)

Vanceone on May 30, 2008 at 2:10 PM

arrainged marriage from the sound of it, and she wasn’t having it.

upinak on May 30, 2008 at 2:09 PM

More like, she was having it.

James on May 30, 2008 at 2:11 PM

Let me ask the men, is it that important (for those whom are religous) for a woman to be a virgin when they get married?

I wouldn’t want to marry a liar. That’s not a good way to start a marriage.

Marriage is a consensual relationship. How can a person give consent when there’s fraud in the inducement?

jaime on May 30, 2008 at 2:11 PM

“the test of the blood-soaked sheet”? what do they do to the poor girls?

Quisp on May 30, 2008 at 2:12 PM

OK, religious = stupid. That certainly applies to Islam. That being said, at issue here is the deception. Yes, demanding that a wife is a virgin is stupid. (Abstinence nazis, remember that!) But it’s what the husband wanted. And so long as the wife knew of it, she did deceive him.

Let’s put it this way. I would never marry a devout religious person. For many reasons including how I want to spend weekends with my family. If someone knows is and then goes to Church for the entire Sunday, I think I’m entitled to a marriage annulment. Same applies of course to a Christian accidentally marrying a militant atheist or something.

freevillage on May 30, 2008 at 2:15 PM

upinak on May 30, 2008 at 1:53 PM

I’m sure that for some women and men it is important, but from a giving standpoint. To fellas like this moron in the story it is pretty obvious that he believes that every time he opens his fly his penis will start laughing at him.

Limerick on May 30, 2008 at 2:15 PM

Related great book thought: Ted Dekker’s Blink.

kirkill on May 30, 2008 at 2:16 PM

“the test of the blood-soaked sheet”? what do they do to the poor girls?

Quisp on May 30, 2008 at 2:12 PM

I dunno, but whatever it was, maybe he was just too small to break her hymen.

James on May 30, 2008 at 2:16 PM

On the virginal status of both parties – if it’s in your belief system, I have no problem with it. I was no virgin though – heck, I was pregnant when I started dating my husband, but my husband was one. He had been hoping to find the woman of his dreams to be a virgin, but when he found out she wasn’t, he realized it wasn’t that important anyway (because she was honest with the questions he asked her). If I had been a virgin, we wouldn’t have my

evil clone

beautiful little girl. I think honesty is key in this situation.

If the woman honestly thought this would be the outcome (of getting out of an arrainged marriage), then I can see why she lied. She’s lucky her groom didn’t kill her right then and there.

Anna on May 30, 2008 at 2:20 PM

That was supposed to be a strike-through. My preview button never works, and I’m not paying attention. Sorry about that.

Anna on May 30, 2008 at 2:22 PM

Hmmm… they should have had a Sharia contract. But honestly, I can’t force myself to get too upset about this. No one was hurt.

AbaddonsReign on May 30, 2008 at 2:25 PM

Thank God for the French court system! Otherwise this woman would have been stuck with a complete ass for the rest of her life.

That being said perhaps she should fear for her life because its only a step away for the court to allow her honor killing due to the fact that she shamed her family.

Brad on May 30, 2008 at 2:30 PM

Hmmm….

Bet it was an arranged marriage… and the woman is probaly not all that broken up over it…

Dad probably told the guy she was a virgin….

As to wanting to marry a virgin? No thanks, I’ve got wayyyy too much experience to want a partner who doesn’t know anything….

But then, I’m sure some posters on here would consider my lifestyle EVIL! but I certainly feel no need to repent for it.

See ya all in Hell… I’ll be the one driving the bus!

Romeo13 on May 30, 2008 at 2:31 PM

Romeo13 on May 30, 2008 at 2:31 PM

I said that earlier on this thread… the marriage part. Not the “partner” part. But damn it, get out of my head!

upinak on May 30, 2008 at 2:33 PM

That being said, at issue here is the deception. Yes, demanding that a wife is a virgin is stupid. (Abstinence nazis, remember that!) But it’s what the husband wanted. And so long as the wife knew of it, she did deceive him.

Yes, but not every breach of a contract rises to the level of termination. The key concept here is that virginity is suddenly an essential quality of marriage, which suggests that Islamic cultural standards are being folded into French civil law.

Allahpundit on May 30, 2008 at 2:33 PM

French court annuls Muslim marriage because wife wasn’t a virgin

I have a dream.

French court annuls Islam because it is subhuman.

MB4 on May 30, 2008 at 2:35 PM

OK, religious = stupid. That certainly applies to Islam. That being said, at issue here is the deception. Yes, demanding that a wife is a virgin is stupid. (Abstinence nazis, remember that!) But it’s what the husband wanted. And so long as the wife knew of it, she did deceive him.

Let’s put it this way. I would never marry a devout religious person. For many reasons including how I want to spend weekends with my family. If someone knows is and then goes to Church for the entire Sunday, I think I’m entitled to a marriage annulment. Same applies of course to a Christian accidentally marrying a militant atheist or something.

freevillage on May 30, 2008 at 2:15 PM

FTFY.

***
RE: hymens, blood and other stuff on the lunch menu

Maybe the woman’s hymen broke when she was riding a bike to get home because her car had been burned out.

The Race Card on May 30, 2008 at 2:43 PM

I bet the Jews stole her blood.

The Race Card on May 30, 2008 at 2:44 PM

Just one question…

France???!!

cs89 on May 30, 2008 at 2:45 PM

/gonna be evil here…

“See Achmed, my beautiful daughter… the virgin… see… the eyes, they are mesmerizing…”

Achmed… “but is she pretty… I can’t tell with that burkha on…”

Dad… “of course she’s pretty…”

Cut to interior, Hotelroom, wedding night….

Bride slowly removes her Burkha…

Achmed “AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH” and runs screaming ,out of the room…

I’m sooooo glad we don’t have arranged marriages here…

Romeo13 on May 30, 2008 at 2:46 PM

Keep yur damn virgins, gimme a girl who knows what the hell she’s doing.

Geronimo on May 30, 2008 at 2:47 PM

Yes, but not every breach of a contract rises to the level of termination.

It’s not like the marriage was annulled because she’s discovered to be a poor cook.

The key concept here is that virginity is suddenly an essential quality of marriage, which suggests that Islamic cultural standards are being folded into French civil law.

Perhaps just an essential quality of this particular marriage, as discussed prior to the betrothal.

JiangxiDad on May 30, 2008 at 2:48 PM

bet the Jews stole her blood.

The Race Card on May 30, 2008 at 2:44 PM

+1

Actually, this is not even newsworthy, in my opinion. I opt for the humpbot.

awake on May 30, 2008 at 2:52 PM

This is so obvious I didn’t see it the first time:

Not only is the Government in their bedroom, they’ve gone all the way to the bottom of the cooter! Maybe Sharon Stone can play her in the movie version.

kirkill on May 30, 2008 at 2:52 PM

Where in the story does it say she confessed to not being a virgin? All I read is that he claimed she wasn’t a virgin.
Her statements, pro or con, are completely missing in the telling. He told his relatives she wasn’t a virgin.

Limerick on May 30, 2008 at 2:53 PM

Note that the court annulled the marriage not because the woman was not a virgin but because she said she was even though she was not. In other words, it’s about the lying, not about the premarital sex.

factoid on May 30, 2008 at 1:48 PM

That’s what I read into it as well, in which case, I don’t get the problem. If you can’t be honest with your spouse about that, then you probably shouldn’t be married.

Not every broken or missing hymen is evidence of sexual activity. I get the feeling Muslim men aren’t aware of that fact.

Anna on May 30, 2008 at 1:49 PM

That’s because it’s different with women who are circumcised. They are literally sewn together, sometimes so much so that that area forms a scar and can almost be completely flat.

That doesn’t break just because you took cheer leading in high school. That scar can only be broken intentionally, either through painful intercourse, or being cut surgically.

They’re not necessarily looking for a hymen in bed. They’re looking for something a little more obvious.

Esthier on May 30, 2008 at 2:56 PM

Imagine there’s no Islam
It’s hard but you can try
No suicide hijackers coming down at us
Above us only sky
Imagine all those people
Still alive today…..

Imagine there’s no Islamic countries
It’s hard but you can try
No Mohammad for them to kill or die for
And no Imams too
Imagine all the Christians, Jews and Infidels
Living life without them…

You may say I’m a dreamer
But I’m not the only one
I hope someday even the dhimmi French judges will join us
And the non-Islamic world will be as one

Imagine no Burkhas
I wonder if you can
No need for Medina or Meca
A brotherhood of non-Islamic woman and man
Imagine all the people
Living without Shariha…

You may say I’m a dreamer
But I’m not the only one
I hope someday even the dhimmi French judges will join us
And the non-Islamic world will be as one

MB4 on May 30, 2008 at 2:56 PM

Where in the story does it say she confessed to not being a virgin? All I read is that he claimed she wasn’t a virgin.
Her statements, pro or con, are completely missing in the telling. He told his relatives she wasn’t a virgin.

Limerick on May 30, 2008 at 2:53 PM

Yep, and after the wedding night? Kinda hard to proove…

But I’m sure the French Court did ask about these issues… I can’t beleive that they would rule this way just based on his “belief”.

Romeo13 on May 30, 2008 at 2:57 PM

Where in the story does it say she confessed to not being a virgin? All I read is that he claimed she wasn’t a virgin.
Her statements, pro or con, are completely missing in the telling. He told his relatives she wasn’t a virgin.

Limerick on May 30, 2008 at 2:53 PM

Duh…in Sharia law, women can’t testify unless they have four witnesses to corroborate their testimony. Wait, this is France, right?

James on May 30, 2008 at 2:57 PM

Where in the story does it say she confessed to not being a virgin? All I read is that he claimed she wasn’t a virgin.
Her statements, pro or con, are completely missing in the telling. He told his relatives she wasn’t a virgin.

Limerick on May 30, 2008 at 2:53 PM

Indeed. If he wanted rid of her(buyer’s remorse), he could have just killed her and become a community hero. Maybe it’s a planned probe of the French legal system :)

JiangxiDad on May 30, 2008 at 2:58 PM

shari’a law = French law = scary precedent

Hunt035 on May 30, 2008 at 2:58 PM

I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ’s heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends. I say this to those who are present, it is meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it.
- Pope Urban II

MB4 on May 30, 2008 at 2:59 PM

MB4 on May 30, 2008 at 2:56 PM

Very good. How about something on Sharia to the tune of My Cherie Amour. You could give Paul Shanklin a run for his money.

JiangxiDad on May 30, 2008 at 3:02 PM

The key concept here is that virginity is suddenly an essential quality of marriage, which suggests that Islamic cultural standards are being folded into French civil law.

Allahpundit on May 30, 2008 at 2:33 PM

As you said, it might be subjective which wouldn’t apply to those for whom lying about virginity is a non issue.

I really don’t see the problem here. For Muslims that can be a very important thing to lie about, and as a Muslim she knew that. If an atheist were to learn he’d married a follower of Phelps, he’d likely want out as well (most people of any belief would).

Esthier on May 30, 2008 at 3:03 PM

Yes, but not every breach of a contract rises to the level of termination. The key concept here is that virginity is suddenly an essential quality of marriage, which suggests that Islamic cultural standards are being folded into French civil law.

Allahpundit on May 30, 2008 at 2:33 PM

I don’t think that it’s her lack of virginity, per se, that caused the annulment, but the fact that she was dishonesthonesty is an essential quality of marriage. Without it, there is no marriage.

I’m no defendent of sharia law, but maybe that’s what they were thinking in this case.

pullingmyhairout on May 30, 2008 at 3:04 PM

but the fact that she was dishonest – honesty is an essential quality of marriage.

pullingmyhairout on May 30, 2008 at 3:04 PM

Actually, the way it’s written is that only lies about “essential qualities” are severe enough to warrant annulment, not just lies in general.

Esthier on May 30, 2008 at 3:08 PM

This looks like a straight-forward ‘fraud’ annulment, like the ones that happen in America all the time. I think it’s a bit of a stretch to play it as an encroachment of sharia law.

jic on May 30, 2008 at 3:08 PM

I bet the Jews stole her blood.

The Race Card on May 30, 2008 at 2:44 PM

TRC, this, and your previous message, affirmed again why I love your mind.

Romeo13, you made me laugh tears today. Thank you.

MB4, when you’re not ranting against McCain, you’re adorable. Though, some of those rants are also on point, just too intense sometimes.

Limerick, indeed. The original French article only stated that she had claimed to be chaste, and that the groom had announced to his family at 4:00a.m. that she wasn’t, and that subsequently his dad went and told her family. Nowhere, so far, is it written how he concluded that, nor that she admitted to anything contrary to chastity. We don’t have all the details.

I’m only interested in the details from a legal standpoint, as I don’t like the Western law slipping into anything Muslim, or away from what it is, going backward.

Entelechy on May 30, 2008 at 3:08 PM

Which would imply that there is now no standard for determining an essential quality.

blink on May 30, 2008 at 3:07 PM

Not sure. I’m not a lawyer. I hope there is. I just thought that virginity could reasonably be considered an essential element of some marriage contracts.

JiangxiDad on May 30, 2008 at 3:09 PM

/gonna be evil here…

“See Achmed, my beautiful daughter… the virgin… see… the eyes, they are mesmerizing…”

Achmed… “but is she pretty… I can’t tell with that burkha on…”

Dad… “of course she’s pretty…”

Cut to interior, Hotelroom, wedding night….

Bride slowly removes her Burkha…

Achmed “AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH” and runs screaming ,out of the room…

I’m sooooo glad we don’t have arranged marriages here…

Romeo13 on May 30, 2008 at 2:46 PM

A bride’s face?
Who needs to see her face?
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&article=31374&d=4&m=9&y=2003

As to the woman involved: I agree that it’s probably better annulled now if this is the guy’s attitude. I can see where these guys might start doing this for the power and fun of it. Marry a girl who swears she’s a virgin, have her for the night, claim she wasn’t, get divorced with no penalty to the guy at all. Or he could stay a few years, claim he saw her with someone else and get divorced. Seems like a muslim guy could get quite a bit of “variety” that way. I will pray that some day these women will figure out how to stand up for themselves and their daughters.

firefoxy on May 30, 2008 at 3:13 PM

,i>La la la la la la, la la la la la la

That Sharia outpour, ugly as a cold and rainy day
That Sharia outpour, it should be banned from the milky way
That Sharia outpour, a sick thing that no one should adore
It’s the only religion that I need a gun for

How I wish that it were just gone

MB4 on May 30, 2008 at 3:16 PM

MB4 on May 30, 2008 at 3:16 PM

grin. Ur a funny guy, or several.

JiangxiDad on May 30, 2008 at 3:27 PM

If she had been dishonest about a NON-essential quality then his annulment wouldn’t have been granted.

blink on May 30, 2008 at 3:20 PM

I hear you. But what I’m thinking is that the French court took into account her dishonesty (meaning that honesty is an essential quality) and the fact that she was dishonest is reason for the annulment???

Since my French is really shaky these days, it was hard for me to discern this from the article.

Was it because she wasn’t a VIRGIN or because she was DISHONEST?

pullingmyhairout on May 30, 2008 at 3:29 PM

I didn’t think that the French even believed in chastity. Isn’t it even outlawed someplace in their constitution? It is considered to be very un-French anyway, I know that much.

MB4 on May 30, 2008 at 3:31 PM

Make love not Sharia.

MB4 on May 30, 2008 at 3:32 PM

I didn’t think that the French even believed in chastity. Isn’t it even outlawed someplace in their constitution? It is considered to be very un-French anyway, I know that much.

MB4 on May 30, 2008 at 3:31 PM

If true (ha ha), you’ve proved AP’s point. It must be Sharia.

JiangxiDad on May 30, 2008 at 3:32 PM

I dunno, if the guy was lied to then he has a point. The fact that feminists are outraged outa tell you something: “Whaddya mean we can’t lie to men?!?!?”

Akzed on May 30, 2008 at 3:34 PM

I’m missing something here: According to the story, after spending the night with her, he announced to his family at 4 am the following day, she was not a virgin. What was the proof? If it was that she did not bleed, that’s insane.

Why not toss her into a well and if she drowns, she did not lie. If she lives, then drown her for lying.

Blake on May 30, 2008 at 3:38 PM

“Whaddya mean we can’t lie to men?!?!?”

Akzed on May 30, 2008 at 3:34 PM

In my experience i have discovered the two things that women lie the most about and the two things that men lie the most about.

Sigy on May 30, 2008 at 3:38 PM

Whaddya mean we can’t lie to men?!?!?”

Akzed on May 30, 2008 at 3:34 PM

HAAAHAAAHAAHA!

kcd on May 30, 2008 at 3:39 PM

Total crap. It is not about the lying. We should all know that. It is about some jerk who thinks his self worth is wrapped up in believeing his penis needs to go where no man has gone before. And what I want to know is exactly how did this loser determine she was not a virgin? The old blood on the sheets trick? I do not mean to be crude here, but it is their reality.

bloggless on May 30, 2008 at 3:44 PM

I actually read an article about this. Lots of women are going to Dr.s who will perform an operation where they build a fake hymen, that will rupture and spill blood on the wedding night. H-He-He…who has the last laugh now? : )

kcd on May 30, 2008 at 3:54 PM

I’m holding off outrage until I know what their legal definition of “essential quality” is. Presumably she knew that it was important to him (an essential quality) that she was a virgin, and apparently she lied about being one.

Hollowpoint on May 30, 2008 at 3:57 PM

What I wanna know is… exactly how many virgins has this guy been with to know she wasn’t one?!?

upinak on May 30, 2008 at 4:00 PM

It is about some jerk who thinks his self worth is wrapped up in believeing his penis needs to go where no man has gone before.

bloggless on May 30, 2008 at 3:44 PM

I just wanted this captured in the HA archives, as a standalone.

Entelechy on May 30, 2008 at 4:01 PM

Oh and BTW… not every woman is the same when it comes to being deflowered. Not all of us “bleed” all over the place.

upinak on May 30, 2008 at 4:02 PM

We don’t know the details of the case, either way. It’s all opinion and speculation.

Entelechy on May 30, 2008 at 4:03 PM

Vanceone reminds us all why there’s so much prejudice against professing christians – too many of the most vocal ones are obnoxious prigs. As Insta does, I despair of the day when evangelicals tired of being ignored by the cultural elite take to the methods of the Salafists to get respect.

But before that horrible day – vance, you need to re-read your scripture: judge not yest ye be judged and found to be a total asshole.

libertarianuberalles on May 30, 2008 at 4:06 PM

I’m curious about something.

We all know what’s coming. Europe will be the first to suffer, with France obviously being the canary in the cave. The assimilation continues, and political correctness is essentially allowing millennia of western history to vanish.

Here’s my question: has there ever in history been a time when what was coming was so clear to so many people, yet absolutely nobody did anything about it?

Professor Blather on May 30, 2008 at 4:06 PM

If bananas are important to me, and my fiancee lies about liking bananas, then I could be granted an annulment.

Therefore, an essential quality can’t be defined as ‘anything that is considered important to a spouse.’

blink on May 30, 2008 at 4:04 PM

If you make it clear that you are only willing to marry someone who likes bananas and view that as a necessary qualification for a spouse, and your fiance lies about it- then sure.

Just remember, it’s ok to like bananas…

Hollowpoint on May 30, 2008 at 4:10 PM

@Entelechy

I’ve been a little crotchety lately. It takes a special person to see through that. Check is in the mail.
:)

The Race Card on May 30, 2008 at 4:11 PM

“He was unable to display the blood-stained sheet…”

Maybe the husband is hung like a sunflower seed. I bet the Muslims would find someway to blame the bride for that as well.

Bicyea on May 30, 2008 at 4:12 PM

What if I didn’t make it clear? What if I was lied to first, and then based a proposal on that lie?

blink on May 30, 2008 at 4:17 PM

Then that would have to be taken into account; if you had not made it clear then it could be questioned how essential a quality it really was.

Hollowpoint on May 30, 2008 at 4:22 PM

I’ve been a little crotchety lately. It takes a special person to see through that. Check is in the mail.
:)

The Race Card on May 30, 2008 at 4:11 PM

Yes, but I love those who can give and take good. No check needed, as my love and admiration is unconditional, and gratis.

p.s. speaking of “crotchety” – I’ve been real grouchy myself. It’s a frustrating year, and long not over.

Entelechy on May 30, 2008 at 4:30 PM

A virgin in France???

viking01 on May 30, 2008 at 4:31 PM

Here’s my question: has there ever in history been a time when what was coming was so clear to so many people, yet absolutely nobody did anything about it?

Professor Blather on May 30, 2008 at 4:06 PM

Professor, indeed. It’s what frustrates me the most, since 9/11/01 – the West is willingly, in complete indolence and wussitude, allowing regression to happen, with ‘progressives’ leading the charge. It’s so crystal clear that they want the destruction of the West. We must recapture the terms progressive and liberal.

Entelechy on May 30, 2008 at 4:36 PM

Normal thinking people would think it was about the lying. They are not normal people. It truly is about the virginity, people.

bloggless on May 30, 2008 at 4:51 PM

blink on May 30, 2008 at 4:44 PM

I’ll bet a lot of disappointed women assumed their new groom would get off his ass and mow the lawn on saturday too. he-he-he

kcd on May 30, 2008 at 4:53 PM

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