Video: Special needs kid voted out of class by kindergarteners
posted at 10:55 am on May 28, 2008 by Allahpundit
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A little ray of sunshine to get your day started right courtesy of the big A. It’s almost too bad to be true, especially the bit about the kids being encouraged to tell him what they don’t like about him, but the teacher’s been disciplined and has supposedly confessed. She’s not the only one guilty of something here, though: Watch the clip and ask yourself how the school administration could have thought this poor kid might be able to function in a general ed environment.
Special bonus feature: The most gratuitous Al Qaeda analogy evah.
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I don’t see how that is relevant. Are you trying to argue that it excuses the way she treated a 5-year-old?
There really is no difference to a 5-year-old. His peers, especially the one friend he finally made, may as well be the entire world.
And the thing is, if this were just a “bad choice” that would be one thing, but she continues to see no problem with what she did, which means she’s like to repeat that “mistake” the next time it’s convenient. There’s no good reason to keep a woman like that in that job.
I wouldn’t go that far. The story was all about him.
I think some people are judging this woman far too harshly. When I was younger, I was teased relentlessly by the kids at school. I start crying the moment my mother picked me up, and even then I knew how much it hurt her to see me that way.
The difference was that she could do anything to the children to stop it. This woman can do something though, and she’s doing whatever it takes. You could hear the pain in her voice when she mentioned how he started reliving the whole thing recently.
That’s horrible. I don’t understand why the teachers who quit didn’t just report the relationship.
And as to your teacher’s experiment, she was obviously trying to teach you a lesson about insults, but she was too naive or possibly malicious to understand what would happen.
Esthier on May 28, 2008 at 2:16 PM
Correct. All we have is the mother playing the victim card.
If this was a veteran teacher, I’ll at least want to hear what happened over the entire school year. Of course we’ll never know that because it appears that the teacher had enough class and common decency to not want to parade this kid all over national news shows.
Perhaps the mother deserves most of the opprobrium here…..the kid wouldn’t listen to the teacher or the principal, so the teacher thought maybe the kid would listen to his peers.
I don’t think that calls for a lynching.
funky chicken on May 28, 2008 at 2:16 PM
Probably gonna catch hell here….
But “special needs” children should not be placed with general ed kids in the first place.
I don’t agree with holding back other kids educational needs all for the sake of touchy-feely liberal goodness.
The Ugly American on May 28, 2008 at 2:18 PM
funky, alden, and romeo13 - you guys give us conservatives a bad name with such retro views on education. I have 3 kids, two of them with mild ADD. No big deal, but they can be a pain in the butt for any teacher or parent. Also have a nephew with Downs that went through the public schools in Dallas. Also my best friend has a kid with Asbergers going through troubles at school.
From these experiences, here is what I have learned - that our kids in school live in the real world, and they can handle dealing with these kids. When they grow up, they will have to deal with many other social issues and people with opposite views due to lack of education or different backgrounds or whatever. And the skills needed to deal with these things are valuable skills that will make them better people. Like all things, there are costs and benefits. It may cost the other kids some time learning in class, but a trained teacher can handle this, and I contend that the kids will be better off for it.
connertown on May 28, 2008 at 2:20 PM
That link was full of win. LOL
We had a “lifeboat” exercise in the midwest (Catholic) school I went to, in eighth grade. We knew it was important because the parish priest came in to help the nun teach it.
After the usual setup of the exercise and we all dutifully thought about it and filled out our papers with who should be thrown over the side, the nun and priest (who’d been watching with gleams in their eyes) proceeded to 1) ask us if we’d prayed about our decision before we made it and 2) then gave us a long and stern lecture about how we were not God and were NEVER allowed to decide who lives or dies and NO ONE should be thrown over the side. The usually very easygoing priest and nun had us all sitting there with our mouths open. We were even late for lunch as I recall. Still remember that lesson like yesterday. What a powerful prolife lesson and I’m sure no one in class ever forgot it.
inviolet on May 28, 2008 at 2:23 PM
I don’t care if Mommy has a daddy with her or not and I can’t even begin to assess the child’s ability or disability from this clip but I do know that nobody benefited from this on the news. I also know that if the child is ODD then the teacher may have been at wits end. Of course the teacher could also be ill suited for her job, we have very little way of knowing.
I do know though that no matter what your condition (even if you are a liberal) you’re more likely to be well served by education if it prepares you for reality, where poor behavior results in your expulsion from groups or even jail. Some children, and adults as well, are unable to process this information and we see them littering the sides of the road of life everyday. The failings of education in recent years has been in providing a comfy narcissistic view of a life in which failure and misbehavior is excused or celebrated. Our nation and society suffers from such unrealistic views. From the limited information we have I would prefer to think that maybe the teacher was reaching out with some reality therapy and maybe the mother and others would prefer for her son to be a victim the rest of his life. But then again I’m usually wrong.
Buzzy on May 28, 2008 at 2:23 PM
Yes, I think you will catch hell. It is not done simply for the sake of “touchy-feely liberal goodness.” I think our “normal” kids should grow up in the real world, and learn to deal with these type of things. At least in public education. Privately, I would agree that parents should have the right to educate their kids differently if they desire (home-schooling, private schooling, etc.)
connertown on May 28, 2008 at 2:25 PM
I’m not necessarily disagreeing with your points, but it certainly isn’t free. That’s kinda the whole point. If you’re forced to pay for something, then you should get what you’re paying for. I don’t have a problem with that.
Esthier on May 28, 2008 at 2:26 PM
A show-and-tell of the object of the story is not required to properly relate that story. News anchors don’t sit a cardboard cutout of Kim Jong Il on their laps to tell a news story about him. He was only there to dredge up sympathy…and apparently, it worked.
James on May 28, 2008 at 2:28 PM
The symptoms of Autism/Asperger’s can range from very mild to severe. In the mild cases, the child my just be socially awkward and aloof but still be within the bell curve of normal behavior and intelligence. In those cases, there is no reason a child can’t be put in a normal class setting. Being in a classroom of normal children, the autistic child can learn to adapt, learn socially acceptable behavior. We need to remember, kindergarten is mainly about socialization, a preparation for elementary school.
SPCOlympics on May 28, 2008 at 2:30 PM
Thanks funkychicken and DrSteve for telling me what ODD is. I Googled it just to learn what it entailed.
It sounds from the news article like this child, Alex, was consistently disruptive and was an extreme disciplinary challenge. The teacher handled it terribly wrong, and was obviously well out of her depth. She was hardly like al-Qaeda, though, as the mother stated.
It’s very sad that the child’s feeling were hurt. It cannot help that the mother is embedding this experience for all time into her son’s memory.
I remember when my children were younger, I developed a habit of downplaying their childhood injuries, and reacting calmly and reasonably - so that they would follow suit. I was inspired by an experienced mother of seven who calmly plucked her drowning toddler from a pool full of children, and proceeded to calm him just as started to wind up for a full-blown panic. Her calm translated to him, she praised him for his bravery, and he was soon scampering happily about as if nothing happened. A full-blown drama probably would’ve scarred him for life and made him afraid of water.
I guess what I’m saying is that this mother shouldn’t parade her son though all the news outlets on a crusade. She ought to sooth his hurt and help him heal - and go on to fight her battles without him. And he would heal, if she let him. In my inexpert opinion, it will likely cause as much, if not more, lasting damage to the child than the single incident in the classroom. He’s only 5 - he would barely even remember this incident. But she’s replaying it over and over for him, and Alex will have no opportunity to adapt and overcome. Children are remarkably resilient, but in Alex’s case, it appears he won’t get a chance to bounce back.
Redhead Infidel on May 28, 2008 at 2:30 PM
Anna,
I don’t know if you will ever read this but I read your concerns about your boys and that they are late talkers. I know exactly what you are going through because I went throught it with my oldest son (who is now 16). I was told he was “mildly autustic”, stupid and had “no sense of right and wrong” because of his late talking. Anna, don’t give up on your boys. Get books by Dr. Thomas Sowell - he also has a son that was a late talker. Dr Sowell is very active in this cause. For their sake, don’t listen to the teachers that will want to put your boys on drugs - and they will want to believe me. Get to a developmental pediatrician and get a 504 plan to force the government schools to give the boys speach threapy. Many boys go through this but it can be overcome with love and work. My son Richie has a 3.7 GPA, is taking advanced placement courses in high school and will be an Eagle Scout by next year. If you want to more info, e-mail me at tjcw0543@yahoo.com
God Bless
Agent of the Cross on May 28, 2008 at 2:31 PM
The kid can talk and was miked. Obviously someone was under the impression that he was going to be interviewed.
Your cynicism is depressing.
Esthier on May 28, 2008 at 2:31 PM
Same could be said for the special needs kid too. If he can’t learn to behave, then he should be removed.
The Ugly American on May 28, 2008 at 2:33 PM
Gee, how nice of you to minimize the importance of, you know, academic achievement. Isn’t the mission of a school to teach reading, writing, and arithmetic? Or is it to teach “tolerance, understanding, and global warming?”
funky chicken on May 28, 2008 at 2:34 PM
So is your flip-flopping.
James on May 28, 2008 at 2:36 PM
Yep.
funky chicken on May 28, 2008 at 2:38 PM
That goes both ways, doesn’t it? Don’t special needs children need to learn how to handle adversity they will face in the real world? Isn’t part of the mainstreaming about them learning how to interact with ‘normal’ kids (it isn’t always easy, even for the other ‘normal’ kids)? You aren’t going to create a world where everybody is always nice to the difficult person.
I’m with RI. This could be a teachable moment for everyone, not a call for vindictiveness or a reinforcement of victim status.
MayBee on May 28, 2008 at 2:38 PM
Okay, folks. I have Asperger’s and I read up on the media (part of my day job) so here goes.
1. The kid shouldn’t be on TV because of comments like I’ve just read. The Mom is doing great as the boy’s press secretary without him on her lap. That said, poor kid just needed a nudge to please sit still and to be fully briefed on what that microphone was, if it was really necessary to give an autistic boy such a foriegn object so young.
2. I tend to believe that its better to correct kindly, then sternly challenged/disabled/special needs people and work the problem than any other solution. Remember “Apollo 13″ when Gary Sinise as Gene Kranz screamed “FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION” and “WORK THE PROBLEM” to bring home the astronauts. Sadly, too many of us Americans have lost that spirit that the Greatest Generation gave us. Sometimes, and I have my reservations, mainstreaming isn’t exactly an option for disabled kids - especially when you can’t nudge them into win-win solutions.
3. Most of my public education life was been a living hell that I am still dealing with (we’ll get to the last part). Granted, I didn’t get the “Survivor” treatment (and I hate that show - pitting teammates against teammates is not exactly my idea of fair). But I got physically attacked repeatedly, had many verbal and written assaults against me, had basically terrorist-symphathizer administrators (you can just guess what doctrine I support… the Bush Doctrine), and my parents lacked the guts and frankly the love to pull me out of there no matter how hard I tried to make the case. Only Skagit Valley College and one left-leaning lawyer saved my soul and my hide after I forced the issue by picking up a weapon, and for that rescue because that’s what it was I am eternally grateful and indebted. Oh yeah, I’m bitter and I’m for McCain against terrorism for America. You simply cannot appease these al Qaeda/Taliban/Hamas/Fatah-esque thugs abroad or their ideological pals here at home - you just can’t. You either bring them to justice or justice to them. Total concurrance with the mom on that al Qaeda reference - that [expletives many] Wendy Portillo who you can find in the White Pages had it comin’.
4. Now I read the kid probably has PTSD as a result of this event, from what I read:
Well, I have PTSD too thanks to my experiences. I doubt seriously the kid can go back to school anytime soon and will probably need a trust fund to pay for counseling, homeschooling and other needs. I highly encourage the mom to find a good lawyer in education law and sue the school district to get not just the trust fund but appropriate accomodations. I ran a search on Martindale.com, ran by Lexis Nexis and came up with THIS gentleman for her county, but that’s all I could find for St. Lucie County that’s been peer-reviewed.
5. The comments about Aspergers’ people having a hard time relating plus being nice folks is much appreciated :-). Figure I should close on a kind note.
Fire away, I’ll be back throughout the day and night. I’d also like to e-mail the mom the intel I’ve dug up.
HotAirJosef on May 28, 2008 at 2:38 PM
There is no flip-flop. He didn’t need to be miked, because he wasn’t interviewed. That doesn’t mean that someone, likely the person who miked him, thought he would be interviewed before the program.
In hindsight, it’s clear now that he never needed to be miked only because the interviewer didn’t ask him a question.
He can talk. It really makes no sense that he wasn’t asked a question.
Esthier on May 28, 2008 at 2:40 PM
But I never said I did. And when I specifically said I did not, you still come back with more of your nonsense.
Not think you made, obscenities you directed at other commenters you did make. It is fact. You become extremely obscene with people who you disagree with. You made numerous posts with inappropriate language and you have been warned about it. You routinely tell people to leave the blog. It demonstrates that you are unable to tolerate differences of opinion and suffer under delusions that you call the shots around here.
I’m not the one whining. I’m not the one stamping my widdle foot and telling people to leave the blog. Your schtick is tiresome.
Oh, give it up! You are the one who has this bizarre idea that you run this place and can tell people you disagree with to leave. Again, I’m not going. However, you are free to. You are also free to email Allahpundit and demand I be banned. I’m sure he will give your demand the, cough, consideration, cough, it deserves. lol!
Blake on May 28, 2008 at 2:42 PM
Actually, I have to disagree with this just based on my experience with ESL students in my daughter’s class. Lost teaching time is LOST TEACHING TIME. You don’t get it back, it’s gone - and the other kids get bored, uninspired, and worst of all, BEHIND.
My daughter does a lot of busy-work in her third grade class - like coloring. Coloring! In third grade! Why? Because it takes the highly-trained teacher 45 minutes to explain to the ESL student how to do something. In the meantime, the other 21 students are stalled. I’ve been in to see the teacher 3 times about this very issue, and there is nothing she can do. She’s frustrated, the kids are frustrated - and NO ONE benefits. Except one single child who would be better off in another class that can move as slow as he needs it to go. Otherwise, it is not fair, it’s not a quality education (which is what I pay sky-high tax rates for), and the reality is that these children ought NOT be mainstreamed until they can participate without hindering the other children.
Redhead Infidel on May 28, 2008 at 2:47 PM
Of course not, but the teacher should make a world where everyone is forced (as seemed to be the case with his friend) into being mean to a person who was possibly difficult.
We’re not talking about a situation where a child wasn’t kept from being insulted but rather a situation where the child was completely humiliated directly because of the teacher’s actions.
Until she understands that what she did was wrong, she should be teaching.
Esthier on May 28, 2008 at 2:47 PM
Autism/Aspergers is not a “behavior” problem in the sense that the child is acting up. Therefore, it isn’t learning to behave it is a matter of making accomodation. In many cases that means a teacher who understands how to deal with these situations. In others it may mean more specialized education.
At no time should anybody follow your advice of rounding them all up and warehousing them as useless human beings!
highhopes on May 28, 2008 at 2:48 PM
Sounds like a problem with the teacher- not the system. Why is the teacher spending 45 minutes with the ESL instead of figuring out a way to advance the class with specialized instruction/accomodation for the slower learners? That’s the way it used to work.
Frankly, and this isn’t directed solely at you, I am disgusted with the number of posters here who think the solution to warehouse the “outliers” and focus on the “normal” kids. The real solution here it to look at the student, not the condition and make accomodation accordingly. Not all autistic children need to be quarantined which seems to be the sole method of dealing with this affliction among those of you whose children are apparently just too damned brilliant to be exposed to anybody below Mensa status by the kindergarten.
highhopes on May 28, 2008 at 2:54 PM
As a paraprofessional who, for 10 years, has worked one-on-one with special needs students who are mainstreamed into the regular classroom, I will tell you this. The LAST place I would put my own special needs child, should I have one, is in a mainstreamed classroom. I see no reason at all to destroy any chance my child would have to learn all they can learn so a bunch of “normal” kids can learn how to get along with differences. In my experience the kids who had compassion starting out as elementary kids for those with disabilities continued to have that same compassion as they grew. The ones who didn’t just learned to be sneakier with their bullying as they got older so they wouldn’t get in trouble. The very last place kids learn socialization skills from is their peers. Special needs children need to be specifically taught social skills, etc. That can’t happen when all their time is taken up in a classroom.
The special needs kids just get farther and farther behind as they sit in an environment that is not designed for how they learn. It is a lose-lose in my opinion.
Lily on May 28, 2008 at 2:55 PM
Good lord…
The Ugly American on May 28, 2008 at 2:59 PM
We all know your average public school district has to hire assistants to the assistant to the adjutant doily-counter. Wouldn’t want all those bureaucrats’ cousins to flip burgers, now would we? This is why school districts can’t find the money or the will to be proactive about special-needs kids and their needs.
At the same time, there are some parents who can’t be bothered to work with or discipline their special-needs kids, but squawk when the school even thinks about dealing with the results. Especially if it means their kid might actually have to stay home with them, or they might have to send the kid some place they’d actually have to pay for beyond the property taxes portioned into their rent.
In the middle of this sit the teacher and the other students. In theory, a mild-to-moderately-impaired student should have little trouble. In reality, the school district often tries to get away with as little help for teachers and students as they can. If Miss Meanie had special ed certifications, the schools would have to pay her more. If the school were more proactive about getting a workable preliminary IEP before a definitive diagnosis of Asperger’s, the money they would get once the diagnosis came in would *sniff* actually have to go towards the aides, counselors, and other such personnel, and doilies would have to go uncounted.
Sekhmet on May 28, 2008 at 3:02 PM
The ‘warehouse’ you speak of is another classroom, not a place where they’re put on a shelf and forgotten.
But, continuing your analogy, we have to store diesel fuel in a different container than we store liquid propane. Sure, they’re both fuels, but they have to be handled differently. Mixing the two products results in higher volatility, dangerous conditions, and a complete waste of the potential of both.
James on May 28, 2008 at 3:05 PM
I agree. In both cases, special circumstances are required - special training or a special education.
I’ve never understood why it’s acceptable to try and conform these special-needs children to a learning style or environment that is not beneficial for them (ie: mainstreaming). I would think special-needs children would blossom under care tailored to their needs.
My friend’s daughter is autistic. My first encounter with her was in a motocross shop, where the little girl stripped down naked and proceeded to run around the store. That happened more than once that day of my visit. I learned later from my friend that it’s because clothing overstimulated her senses and she had no filter or “inhibitors” to the behavior, regardless of how much instruction she was given. My friend is today an expert on autism, and handles her daughter beautifully, but I cannot imagine a public school teacher dealing with her nearly as skillfully. It requires an immense amount of time and skill and patience. And my friend will be the first to admit that a mainstream classroom, where there are 20 other children who require a teacher’s attention, is not an optimum environment for her daughter.
Redhead Infidel on May 28, 2008 at 3:05 PM
I think the last statement in your last two posts sums up the content of your posts. Something tells me you were the one humiliated in Kindergarten, and you didn’t even have a disorder.
MadisonConservative on May 28, 2008 at 3:06 PM
I am in total agreement - it takes a whole lot to deal with one of us autistic kids. Hope you read my earlier comment.
HotAirJosef on May 28, 2008 at 3:14 PM
Actually, the teacher does try to do exactly that. However, there are only so many hand-outs and worksheets she can kill time with, while she works one-on-one with a single student. It’s not just this one teacher either, it’s been a problem every year across multiple grades. I guess here in Texas we just have to live with the reality that English-speaking students’ needs are secondary to those of our…ahem… “visitors”. One wouldn’t want to be charged with racism, no?
I’m a little puzzled by your use of the pejorative terms “warehousing” and “quarantining”. I haven’t read ALL the comments, but I haven’t seen anyone suggest that ugly. In fact, as I said in my comment above, I think special-needs children would THRIVE in an environment specially tailored to meet their needs so that they blossom.
Redhead Infidel on May 28, 2008 at 3:14 PM
You admit that your children are disruptive and those who have autistic children admit that that are very difficult to discipline — that they are so inwardly focused they can’t understand other people’s needs — yet you accuse people who think it might make more sense to have those children in their own classroom as “retro” or as “as*****.”
Really, people, because others disagree with you doesn’t make them wrong or meanspirited. They’re just questioning the sense of including children with significant issues in a classroom with children who don’t have those issues.
Mainstreaming children doesn’t work well for the children being used for that purpose. Sure, the autistic child may over many years, as one poster said, learn socialization skills but in the meantime they’re extremely disruptive. They cry and have outbursts at inappropriate times, they require aides who can’t always control them and they create disruption in the learning environment.
This doesn’t help the children learn to deal with people in the “real world” since they’re aren’t going to be working with people who behave that way or need aides to tell them how to work and behave. That’s just terminology used to make the parents accept the situation and be quiet.
And telling people that because they don’t have an autistic child they have no say in how the school should handle autistic children (because they don’t understand what it’s like) is another way of telling them to shut up.
All of my children have been in classrooms with autistic children, and I have as much right to express my opinion about how it’s handled as anyone who has an autistic child.
We just come at it the issue from different angles.
Sensible Mom on May 28, 2008 at 3:16 PM
*something that ugly.
Redhead Infidel on May 28, 2008 at 3:16 PM
I know this is just a comments section, but I can’t tell that you have autism. I’m just curious, does it still cause you problems today?
The only person with autism I know is my cousin, but he can’t speak or even look at you really, so you can’t ask him how it affects him.
Esthier on May 28, 2008 at 3:22 PM
Yes, I did, Josef. :) And I completely appreciate your viewpoint as an adult with Asperger’s. Thank you!
Back to the case of Alex, I also agree that he may end up with some form of PTSD, but I’m afraid it will be the result of the ensuing high drama over the classroom incident, not the incident itself. Given some time, as young as he is, with some calm and reasonable parenting, I think the classroom would’ve faded in memory. But not now.
Redhead Infidel on May 28, 2008 at 3:24 PM
Oppositional Defiance Disorder. Believe me when I first heard of this, I thought it was some kind of a joke. It isn’t. A certain percentage of children with ADD/ADHD can have this as a comorbid condition.
A child like my daughter can be extremely hard to live and deal with.
I found an amazing book that changed our lives.
It’s called the Explosive Child by Dr. Ross Greene.
He says children like my daughter really can’t help it.
It’s like another part of their learning disability.
If my daughter could do better, she would already be doing so. The child needs to be taught the skills that other children seem able to acquire naturally. Dr.Green doesn’t believe in labeling children.
I agree with him. He says a label NEVER helped a child, because each child is so unique.
He calls his program “collaborative problem-solving.”
Conservaboomer on May 28, 2008 at 3:25 PM
I live in south Texas and my kids are in private school because of the ESL issue, among other reasons.
It strictly depends on the child. Some children are still in self-contained classrooms - especially the ones with ODD, ED, your basic behavior problems. Most kids can be mainstreamed successfully and ALL kids can thrive (typical and non-typical alike), especially with a competent teacher.
pullingmyhairout on May 28, 2008 at 3:35 PM
Blake,
1. Your “we don’t have enough information” point has been discredited but the quoted post. Clearly the school sees a potential problem.
2. That the police aren’t interested only implies that a crime was not committed. There’s plenty of things you can do that aren’t crimes but will get you fired.
3. Finally, your assertion that this would be a firing over “hurt feelings” is a misrepresentation of the argument of several people here. This teacher should be fired for badly mishandling a situation, wasting class time, and encouraging cruelty in the classroom.
Children are not little adults. Their abilities to identify, address, and reason through their emotions are not fully developed. Often their own sense of empathy isn’t fully developed either. This is common knowledge in developmental psych. If the teacher does not grasp these concepts then her education is clearly deficient, which would also make her unfit.
4. You state earlier than any legal action against the teacher will come to naught. I beg to differ. If most of the folks at HA and freakin Daily Kos agree on something, it stands to reason that a few other folks might think the same way, and some of those folks might just be judges and a jury.
5. No one claims we live in a perfect world, but the imperfection of this place does not absolve us of our responsibilities or the requirements of a job. This teacher’s actions indicate that she is either cruel or dangerously incompetent. Neither option describes someone fit to educate kindergarten children.
TheUnrepentantGeek on May 28, 2008 at 3:38 PM
Did you get a chance to read Lily’s comment above? You have very different viewpoints - it’s confusing.
I’m not asking the following rhetorically, I’m asking because I genuinely want to understand: How can ALL kids thrive in a situation where disciplinary, behavioral, and learning disabilities disrupt a class? Even with a competent teacher, the frequent disruptions must still be dealt with, special accommodations made, and the entire environment conformed to the needs of a single child. How does that help ALL the children thrive?
Redhead Infidel on May 28, 2008 at 3:45 PM
Terms like warehousing and quarantining are no more pejorative than declarations that a child with autism should “learn to behave” or blanket comments about the need to separate out these children from “normal children.” It really depends on the child, the condition, and the circumstances. It also depends on the ability of the teacher to understand the dynamics of his/her classroom and do the utmost to create an environment where all the students are able to learn.
I am very disappointed with the number of posters here whose sole solution is to put all the slow learners, special needs children, etc. in their own little group so as not to infect the “normal” children who (of course) would never disrupt a class or need a little bit more time to understand the material! It smacks of intolerance for differences in the ability to learn with the sole litmus test being how much the child is just like all the other little children in the room. A better solution would be to look at the child and not the condition but, apparently, that is asking too much.
highhopes on May 28, 2008 at 3:48 PM
But “special needs” children should not be placed with general ed kids in the first place.
I don’t agree with holding back other kids educational needs all for the sake of touchy-feely liberal goodness.
Eh, I’m not going to give you hell, just point out how ignorant your assertion is. Y’see, my autistic kid recently was given the award for having the highest math scores in his entire class, meaning he was above the “general ed” class. It surprised no one, since he’s usually the smartest person in the room whenever he enters it….he was just born with autism & thus has a few differences over the “general ed” crowd (which, I assume, includes you).
Apparently, it’s folks in the “general ed” crowd are holding HIM back. Anything I can do to get you guys outta his way, since he’s smarter than the lot of you?
rjwest21 on May 28, 2008 at 3:50 PM
I’m not conservative and you may see my views on education as retro, I prefer to see them as common sense.
As long as we’re throwing subjective opinions at each other, I’d color your views as typical hippie liberal. Throw unlimmited resources, time, tax dollars at the tiny minority while ignoring the majority so that all involved can look, misty eyed, at their accomplishment. Every “special” kid gets a state funded shadow aide but the normal kids have to bring their own toilet paper to school because there is no budget for it.
Alden Pyle on May 28, 2008 at 3:55 PM
One guarantee, that teacher will still be teaching next year. They can’t fire teachers, they just keep the bad ones forever. What a awful, foolish thing to do, have a vote.
She doesn’t have the ability or the knowledge to address this with the administration. This teacher should be fired…but she won’t, thus is the public school system.
right2bright on May 28, 2008 at 3:57 PM
You keep using the term “thrive” but you’ve never actually defined what that means to you. Certainly it is clear that part of your definition includes allowing children the ability to learn as much as they can but is that really all there is to create “thriving” children? I know lots of very educated people who never really “thrived.” Where in your definition of the word do you allow children to experience the world around them- warts and all- instead of calling for the creation of a class of Stepford students with any of the “troublemakers” sent away?
highhopes on May 28, 2008 at 3:57 PM
My guess is that she’ll be kicked upstairs and be named Vice Principle of some school.
highhopes on May 28, 2008 at 3:58 PM
Principal not principle……
Spelling probably counts on this topic.
highhopes on May 28, 2008 at 3:58 PM
The overwhelming experiences suggest your case is the exception not the norm. In any instance have him transferred to the honors classes so the “not special” kids don’t slow him down.
Alden Pyle on May 28, 2008 at 3:58 PM
I do agree. The very fact that these children have special needs makes each of them unique. I am aware that there are a myriad forms of autism and the like - it’s dizzying. I, by no means, advocate lumping them all together in a cookie-cutter situation. But frankly, I see a mainstream classroom as exactly that - a cookie-cutter environment. And trying to force a special child to conform to circumstances that alienate them and isolate them is difficult at best and hurtful at worst.
Again, you’re the only one using a pejorative like “infect”. I certainly don’t feel that way, and I don’t think anyone here does either. I haven’t read anything that makes me believe someone thinks special-needs children will “infect” their own.
I think we’re saying the exact same thing, but just from different perspective. Like I said above, I think forcing a special needs children into the cookie-cutter of a mainstream classroom is counter-productive. I think the litmus test is far more than how “different” a child is from others. In fact, I do think that the disciplinary, behavioral, and learning aspects are what’s at issue here. Different doesn’t mean “worse”, it just means that a different approach is called for.
Redhead Infidel on May 28, 2008 at 3:59 PM
He probably should be in a special class, one for gifted students. Unfortunately public schools are just as useless in helping smart kids as they are at helping ones with learning disabilities.
Hopefully your son stays involved enough despite being bored.
Esthier on May 28, 2008 at 4:00 PM
“Some” autistic children are difficult to discipline.
“Some” autistic children are easier to discipline than the ‘normal’ kids.
C’mon, folks, enough with the ignorant assertions. Some have special needs and accommodations can be made w/o infringing on the learning of other kids (for example, a child who is hard of hearing & a teacher wearing a mic…..or a child who is going blind & a classroom equipped with braile & other items to assist the vision-impaired child). Children that are disruptive are generally sent to the “special” schools.
rjwest21 on May 28, 2008 at 4:02 PM
Another thing people without knowledge of the Autism spectrum is that it usually comes with other stuff like ADD/ ADHD etc.
My brother has always been very well behaved. His issues come when he tries to communicate with ‘neuro-typical’ people. They write him off as weird, geeky, retarded etc. He has a higher than average intelligence but just can’t understand social cues/ body languages and non literal meanings. If you say ‘it’s a piece of cake’ he’s wondering where the cake is….
One of the heroes of Asperger people is Temple Grandin. Go look her up. My brother never tore up a class room or caused trouble to other children. He was targeted for his clumsiness as children often target weaker children for ridicule (bully syndrome). Try to live with people writing you off as retarded when you have the intellectual abilities my brother has.
Bruce Hendrix on May 28, 2008 at 4:03 PM
And by the by, all children are special regardless of how society or medicine labels them.
Bruce Hendrix on May 28, 2008 at 4:07 PM
You don’t understand, I’m not afraid of the “special kids” infecting my kid, just hurting him.
Sure every now and then a “not special” kid will disrupt a class, but the “special” kids are making it a mad house ALL DAY EVERY DAY.
AndI don’t mind being intollerant. Since when did tolerate mean embrace? I tolerate the special needs kids in the class as I have little choice, I don’t embrace them being there and wrecking my kids projects, making it impossible for him to concentrate while the teacher tries to teach a subject, constantly physically hurting the other kids etc.
They are ticking time bombs, it’s not IF my kid will come home with bite marks, bruises and cuts from some nonsensical mental explosion these kids have, it’s how many times a month it will happen.
Alden Pyle on May 28, 2008 at 4:07 PM
OK, here is a perfect example of what I’m trying to get at. Here’s a parent who’s looking to optimize his son’s education since he’s incredibly gifted. We all know stories of autistic children who were extremely bright, perhaps even prodigies. What more could they do if they weren’t in a cookie-cutter situation, and were educated in an environment that stretched their incredible potential? I guess that’s what I mean by thrive - helping kids progress and grow.
Pullingmyhairout removed her kids from public education and put them into a new environment to maximize their potential. What’s wrong with that? Nothing.
I’ve taken my own son out of the mainstream and placed him where I thought his gifts would be maximized. I don’t harbor bitterness or grudges against the public school because they couldn’t meet his needs. They can only do so much with 20 kids per class.
Why not place children where they are BEST able to learn and grow? That goes for gifted as well as special-needs. It doesn’t have to be negative - it can be very, very positive.
Redhead Infidel on May 28, 2008 at 4:07 PM
Amen to that and so was my brother-usually the smartest person in the room.
Bruce Hendrix on May 28, 2008 at 4:10 PM
EXACTLY.
Redhead Infidel on May 28, 2008 at 4:11 PM
In that case, they should all be taken out of public school.
Esthier on May 28, 2008 at 4:12 PM
Dude, you are just way off. and yes, you have a choice your his parent. Go to another school.
Bruce Hendrix on May 28, 2008 at 4:13 PM
Heh. Ain’t that right.
Redhead Infidel on May 28, 2008 at 4:16 PM
Why not place children where they are BEST able to learn and grow? That goes for gifted as well as special-needs. It doesn’t have to be negative - it can be very, very positive.
Trust me, he’s getting the best care. We spend thousands out-of-pocket each year to maximize his potential (by the way, he battted .643 this year in coach-pitched baseball). That said, he has his “normal” side, as well, such as language/arts. He’s above the norm when it comes to reading and math, but he’s ‘average’ when it comes to talking with another kid….primarily because he’s autistic and his natural tendency is to take care of things himself instead of networking or seeking a solution involving other people.
It’s ingrained, trust me (as an aside, I see so much of my youth in his autism that there’s no doubt that he gained those traits from my genes, but that’s an anecdotal aside). So, he’s advancing by being in an atmosphere where he’s surrounded by kids who are really his peers when it comes to social interaction (actually, since he’s autistic, he’d be labeled below them, since he naturally doesn’t wish to interact in certain situations) and they’re helped in certain situations by being in contact with someone who is above them intellectually in certain situations (such as group work including mathematical situations, where he become the natural leader and instructs the group on the best way to handle the problem).
When he’s ready to go to the next level, be it math or reading or whatever, he goes to the next level. That is one of the items that the parapro can help him with! They’re not there just so that “special needs kid can keep up”, but to assist in whatever way they can, in some cases being advanced learning.
Overseeing the progress is what my job as a parent includes. And his mom deciding to go to work at his school so that she can have more hands-on oversight is icing on the cake.
Again, no kid that holds back a class should be in the room. I think we all agree on that. I just think that a lot of us are trying to inform some of you that blanket statements about special needs are off the mark. Not all autistic kids are Rainman & able to count cards (oh, I wish) but unable to do much else besides watching Judge Wapner.
rjwest21 on May 28, 2008 at 4:19 PM
Ok, as the proud mother of a 13 year old pitcher, that impresses the HELL outta me. Screw school grades, I want that kid’s stats! ;)
Redhead Infidel on May 28, 2008 at 4:22 PM
Way off what? Your perception of political corrctness? I’m not swayed.
As for choices they are slim; I’m not sure where you live, but in Boston the waiting list can be years to get into an acceptable school. However, were I to find one that has “non special” kids only, I would eagerly transfer him there.
Alden Pyle on May 28, 2008 at 4:24 PM
Many of you just don’t understand how lonely Asperger adults are. Many of them, as intelligent as they are, can’t keep jobs because of the need for socializing on the job scene. I have a special place in my heart with children and adults with it. They yearn to interact but just can’t do it. It’s in the the brain’s wiring and not very well understood. The syndrome was only brought about in the 1950’s. There are probably scads of adults with it that don’t know it but struggle daily with ‘why do I don’t I have friends?’ ‘why don’t people like me?’ and so on.
Bruce Hendrix on May 28, 2008 at 4:25 PM
This has nothing to do with PC crap. It has to do with your assertion that these kids are psycho under the skin and ready to beat your kid. Give me a break. your lame points do not deserve further comment.
Bruce Hendrix on May 28, 2008 at 4:27 PM
rjwest21, maybe your kid is normal, and it’s the rest of us that need ’special’ help…
SPCOlympics on May 28, 2008 at 4:28 PM
Notice the Rickey Henderson bat flip & how fast he’s outta the box. Not bad for an 8 year old. :) (can you guys tell that I’m a proud dad?)
rjwest21 on May 28, 2008 at 4:28 PM
By the way, it was my brother with Asperger’s that had his arm broken by a neuro typical kid such as yours. And that’s not the end of it on abuse he’s suffered.
Bruce Hendrix on May 28, 2008 at 4:29 PM
Point well made. I said above I was dizzied by the numerous forms of autism. My friend does her best to keep me up-to-date but it’s overwhelming.
Redhead Infidel on May 28, 2008 at 4:30 PM
See, this is what I mean about turning people’s words who disagree with you around to make them seem meanspirited just because they diosagree with you.
No one complained that autistic children would “infect” their “normal” children. People were giving examples of when some autisitc children were disruptive. Several parents of autistic children on this thread have said that their children are disruptive and difficult to discipline. Are we supposed to just ignore that or acknowledge that there are times when it makes more sense for those children to be in a special needs classroom?
Way back at the beginning of the thread I stated that a good school district will recognize quickly when a child has issue and will meet with the parents to form a plan that best suits the needs of the child. Many times the child will be placed in a general ed classroom with an aide. Other times the child needs to be pulled out.
In the case of Alex, it appears that he was very disruptive and his teacher ended up doing something horrible and humiliating to him. He obviously would have been better off with another teacher, but I also don’t think it’s wrong to suggest that he may have needed to be in a special needs class. That doesn’t make me intolerant. That doesn’t make me afraid that he may “infect” the other kids and that doesn’t mean he’s being “quarantined.”
If one child prevents 30 other children from learning on a daily basis, then that child’s situation should be re-evaluated. Every case should be looked at individually and in good schools it is. But just as you state that all special needs children shouldn’t be sent away, every special needs chold should be mainstreamed either.
Sensible Mom on May 28, 2008 at 4:30 PM
You’re telling me that in Boston you can’t find a preschool that has what you’re looking for?
I mean no offense by this, but if your child is in physical danger of being injured because of the situation in his/her preschool and you simply shrug and say “I have no choice” then it’s no one’s fault but yours.
I’ve seen plenty of situations where there are disruptive children that are a detriment to a classroom, but you’re framing this violent, uncontrollable behavior in your child’s preschool as an everyday commonplace occurrence.
SouthernDem on May 28, 2008 at 4:32 PM
Whoa. I had a bunch of spelling errors in my last post. My last line should have read “But as you state that all special needs children shouldn’t be sent away, not every special needs child should be mainstreamed either.”
Sensible Mom on May 28, 2008 at 4:33 PM
I liked that he had a timely load on his back leg and then stepped slightly open to get the inside pitch. He’s got an eye!
Redhead Infidel on May 28, 2008 at 4:34 PM
rjwest21, maybe your kid is normal, and it’s the rest of us that need ’special’ help…
Thanks, I get where you’re coming from.
He’s had doctors who were examining him for other reasons who were flabbergasted when informed that he was autistic. But, he most certainly is. He’s just at the very tip top of the “high functioning” scale. Spend an hour with him & you’d think that he’s a normal kid who has a fondness for building legos & eating chips and salsa. Spend a day with him & you realize - the humming is a dead giveaway - that he’s autistic and that his dad is 10 times luckier than Bill Gates or Warren Buffett.
If one child prevents 30 other children from learning on a daily basis, then that child’s situation should be re-evaluated.
B-I-N-G-O, and Bingo was his name-oh!
Step in, parents. Do more than just drop your kids off in the morning & check their schoolwork in the afternoons. Stay on top of things & maintain a line of communication with your kid & ask them if anything happens in the room. Chances are, the teachers would prefer a disruptive kid to be out of the room, too, so work with them & the school. Yeah, gov’t schools can suck (they’re not public schools, guys, they’re government schools, let’s not lose sight of that) but usually it’s the administrative side & not the personnel. If there’s something disrupting your child, let them know. That can be ammo to use when assessing a disruptive kid.
rjwest21 on May 28, 2008 at 4:36 PM
Youtube is blocked at work, but uk.youtube isn’t. If you’re rjwest21 on youtube, then I saw the clips. The one with him playing basketball is a little eye-opening.
Esthier on May 28, 2008 at 4:36 PM
Then my job here is done. :)
You, your candor & honesty have my respect and I wish you and everyone else here a good and blessed day.
rjwest21 on May 28, 2008 at 4:39 PM
We didn’t have autism in the ’50’s. They just whipped
us kids into control.
gary on May 28, 2008 at 4:40 PM
Yep, that’s me.
Yep, you can easily tell from the basketball clip that he has autism. For some reason, his interaction on the basketball court is a lot different than on the baseball field. Then again, we’ve been experimenting with supplements since that video and he’s progressed immensely since then (vitamin b-12 “dots” are the bomb, folks).
rjwest21 on May 28, 2008 at 4:43 PM
I know I’m a little late in response to this (we had to make a run to Home Depot), but thank you for your kind words. I worry about them, but I know my boys are bright - and their dad was a late speaker too (not to the same extent).
Anna on May 28, 2008 at 4:45 PM
You obviously approach this subject with emotion instead of logic due to your brother’s unfortunate circumstances. Regardless, I was addressing your post, not pining for your comment.
Alden Pyle on May 28, 2008 at 4:46 PM
Anna,
AotC is quite correct. Dr. Sowell’s books are fantastic. I got them when my son wasn’t up-to-par when it came to speaking at the age of 3 (I have a nephew who never uttered a word until he was 3 & now he’s 22 and ‘normal’). Best advice: have them assessed by professionals. Early intervention - if there are problems - are key. THE key, actually. The only thing ou have to lose is a few bucks, whereas you can gain their normative years. Not a bad payoff.
I know I’m sure glad I spent the cash to have it done.
rjwest21 on May 28, 2008 at 4:49 PM
My friends’ child with Aspergers has the opposite problem. She considers every casual acquaitance as if it were a life-long BFF. When that doesn’t work out, then in her mind, it as if she were betrayed by a BFF.
highhopes on May 28, 2008 at 4:53 PM
Ha, thanks for fixing my preschool needs in Boston, from wherever you live. You’ll sleep better knowing he is in the best school available to me right now.
Alden Pyle on May 28, 2008 at 4:53 PM
Unfortunately, the only professionals we can really see right now are through Tricare (and since the doctor thinks nothing is wrong, well, you see where I’m going). When we move (so soon, I hope), things will change. You can rest assured we’re keeping on top of things. I’m talking to my husband about this subject right now on the phone. Thank you too. : )
Anna on May 28, 2008 at 5:17 PM
Alex got 2/16 = 12.5% of the vote. That’s more than Ron Paul has got/will get in the Republican primaries.
My collie says:
No doubt about it.
Politics brings out the worst in everyone — even children.
CyberCipher on May 28, 2008 at 5:20 PM
No, unfortunately, in the 1950s, children who were not “normal” were raised at some form of institution.
Sekhmet on May 28, 2008 at 5:58 PM
Truly sorry about your cousin. I have Aspergers’, so I’m somewhat better off.
Pretty much, Aspgerger’s is “autism lite” as in lite beer. Not as strong, but still has a bite. Thing is, I worked on that comment for over an hour and proof-read it so that I wasn’t issuing threats or going too far over-the-top. I also have PTSD and therefore strong anger issues plus also some rather strong “white knight” impluses at the moment.
Put differently, autism is a spectrum. On my part, its social skills and I have to force me to stop & think about how others may absorb my actions, and really force the issue upon me to make eye contact with somebody among other things.
Hopefully I answered your question.
HotAirJosef on May 28, 2008 at 6:07 PM
Yoosaion on May 28, 2008 at 11:16 AM
You’re right, Fox over-medicated so that he would look worse for the cameras to sell his political point. Rush was right on the money, he was just wrong on how Fox got there.
On this issue. Normally I am against suing or firing, but the teacher is obviously in the wrong field, hence should be fired.
Another thing, as far as the other students rights, in not having disruptive students in the classroom. For the most part I agree, and will leave it to the professionals to make the decision when a student should be in a more special class. Fact of the matter is, students are in school to learn how to read, do math, and write and such, but they are also there to learn basic socialization. It is far more important for 5 year olds to know basic class room behavior than learn how to read write and math. Hence, having these “normal” kids being held back in their learning is false…they need to learn how to get along with others, and how to be patient with people who have special needs. This isn’t Nazi Germany is it?
Conservative Voice on May 28, 2008 at 6:11 PM
You did. Thank you.
And at least you’re aware of your social issues. Many people, even those without a disability, have them and never realize it.
Esthier on May 28, 2008 at 6:14 PM
Bruce, good summary of me, thank you sir.
Josef over
HotAirJosef on May 28, 2008 at 6:24 PM
There are a couple of issues here.
First, it is very doubtful the child should have been in the class.
Second, the teacher was absolutly wrong in what she did. No excuses for her. Sure, the child probably didn’t belong in her classroom, but that does not mean you stand him in front of the class and have the other children tell him what they don’t like about him. That is cruel to the child, and teachs a terrible lesson to the children in the class. This woman should not be teaching school.
Third, the reason this child was in that class is thanks to the Federal Government. Yep, your elected offcials make school systems mainline special needs children, even when they are not suitable canidates for it. Do not blame the school system for this child being in a class he shouldn’t have been in. The school system pretty much has no choice on these things.
Buford on May 28, 2008 at 6:25 PM
Stop making sense.
Signed,
Director of Operations, Warehousing and Quarantining
The Ugly American on May 28, 2008 at 6:38 PM
That is really horrible.
But hey, when you force retarded kids into regular classes, you hurt all the kids in the class. True, any kids that plan to grow up to be social workers may like the experience, but those who hope to grow up having learned something in school suffer from mainstreaming. It also makes it murder to teach, when the talent in your classroom ranges from bright to retarded, and effort ranges from tries hard to lazy POS with excuse-making parents.
If ugly thing happen because of stupid policy, it is no surprise.
Spartacus on May 28, 2008 at 6:46 PM
Spartacus on May 28, 2008 at 6:46 PM
He isn’t retarded, he has a social skill deficit. He needs to learn to control his issues, the other kids have the opportunity to learn how to deal with someone who is a challenge. And the teacher needs to find a different job that will suit her skill set better.
Conservative Voice on May 28, 2008 at 6:56 PM
I am stunned.
Stunned that the teacher is still going to work every day.
I am also not feeling very much sympathy for the mother here. She knew there were behavioral problems, but apparantly decides that it’s okay for son to have the problems and put the burden on others to ‘educate’ him.
Wow. Nobody is in the right here.
I feel for that child.
bridgetown on May 28, 2008 at 7:18 PM
And why in the He– was there a microphone on that child’s shirt?
bridgetown on May 28, 2008 at 7:19 PM
If schools were strictly about teaching reading, writing or arithmetic, students would be grouped by ability level in a subject and not allowed to go to the next level in that subject until they reached proficiency in that subject, much as it is done on the university level.
If public schools were strictly about acquiring social skills, students would be group according to behavioral traits and drilled in proper behavior until they can exhibit such.
But since schools are trying to do both at the same time we, for some reason, have students grouped by chronological age which has little bearing on the student’s ability or their behavior levels. This ensures that any given classroom will have students that run the gamut of abilities and behaviors. Toss a student with severe behavioral difficulties into the mix and chaos ensues. Those who merely have learning difficulties but are quiet are no less screwed than the rest of the class, they just don’t call attention to the fact that the classroom is failing them.
Lily on May 28, 2008 at 7:28 PM
That’s not entirely accurate, as he was undergoing testing for Asperger’s only since February.
True, he’d had disciplinary problems in the past, but that’s no reason to disallow him from school.
SouthernDem on May 28, 2008 at 7:33 PM
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