A final note. Much of the youth unrest in Germany is directed against the Turks.

viking01 on May 26, 2008 at 9:53 PM

Perpetrated by the Turks.

During the 1980s it was fashionable to encourage Turkish immigration to work the factories cheaply. As those immigration numbers increased and native Germans’ jobs were displaced so did the friction between the two cultures.

viking01 on May 26, 2008 at 9:53 PM

In the 1950s, because our young workers were dead, which was fashionable back then. Those guest workers were never intended to stay and initially, they were even part of a rotation system and required to leave after a short duration. Now that they have stayed some time and no intention to leave, the guest worker program has been retroactively declared a lie. We have paid them well for their work and no moral obligation demands that we rescue those people from their failed nation.

Britain and France also welcomed unchecked immigration of Middle East and Indus Valley immigrants.

viking01 on May 26, 2008 at 9:53 PM

Those were citizens of their former empires and really eager to come to the evil, evil nations they had “liberated” themselves from.

Your unlimited love for the enemies of Europe is quite revealing. It is completely pointless to continue to discuss matters vital for our survival with someone who so obviously wants us to perish. It is NEVER going to happen. Feel free to continue to call us Nazis because of it.

The continuation of Aengus patronizing attitude is duly noted.

Therefore unless I have addressed you specifically please keep any ego or presumption in check.

You addressed me by name so I replied.

You’re simply not worth more of my time.

Whatever, dude.

Sometimes Aengus when you think I’ve been referring to you in the third person I have not. My first thoughts in the morning aren’t your opinions of what circles and diagrams constitutes serious. Therefore unless I have addressed you specifically please keep any ego or presumption in check.

The weak contention you make that I somehow expect everyone to agree with me is pure pompous bull@#!% (self-edited).

You’re simply not worth more of my time.

elduende on May 26, 2008 at 8:50 PM

Are you able to post a link on the article about Obama? I located the online magazine, but I cannot read/understand the language.

Thank you, aengus. It’s now clear that Western Europe is not left out, but is first on their plan. May this scorch and menace be fiercely defeated, no matter what it will take. I’m afraid that glove treatment and multi-culti, PC and elitism will not do the job.

My brief response to testy Aengus

I’m not testy. On the contrary I’ve responded to you politely, addressed you in a courteous fashion and expressed my sympathy for your family’s losses.

You keep referring to me in terms of someone who has insulted or ridiculed you but I clearly have not. I don’t know why you do.

Yet the willingness of the counterculture to militarize is clearly there particularly among those attempting to excuse prior conduct while suggesting they need to shed the imaginary chains of oppressors they once invaded.

I don’t see it myself. You’re welcome to provide unsourced quotes, anecdotes, circumstantial evidence – anything – to back up your statements. You just keep asserting something over and over and expect everyone to agree with you. Serious debate does not work that way.

Since this is rapidly approaching circular arguments let’s just say GermanAtheist should be thankful America defeated as much of his nation as it did before the Russians could inflict their vengeance for what his nation chose to do to them. If you consider the Allies ruthless be careful for what you have wished for lest Moscow having been the one to determine your fate. All could have been easily avoided by not invading France or Poland. Ooops. Annexing France tends to cause hardship.

My brief response to testy Aengus is that I’m not attempting nor will attempt to prove any widespread rebirth of Nazism. They have their skinheads, we have our skinheads. Whether the guise is Communism or Nazism whatever the culture of vengeance will cloak itself in the most convenient garment available. Yet anyone who has visited Germany in the post Cold War era can readily see the counterculture group think which would not hesitate to support FARC or similar guerillas against imaginary slavemasters within their Germany as much as without. To suggest the entire nation is a “mere iota” away from Hitler’s rebirth is quite a stretch. Yet the willingness of the counterculture to militarize is clearly there particularly among those attempting to excuse prior conduct while suggesting they need to shed the imaginary chains of oppressors they once invaded.

GermanAtheist on May 26, 2008 at 8:35 PM

I agree with this comment. viking01 still has not even attempted to prove his earlier argument – which seems to underlie the mental atmosphere of all of his comments – that contemporary Germans are a mere iota away from re-adopting Nazism and attempting to commit mass genocide and conquer the world.

It’s only war to you apparently? Chilling.

viking01 on May 26, 2008 at 5:41 PM

Brrrrr! I made a clear distinction between warfare and related civilian deaths on one side and the “systematic destruction of a cultural or racial group” on the other side, which you simply neglected to do despite your acceptable definition.

You have limited your reply concerning WMDs to a comment on their usefulness. Does a universal morality exist that guides their use and does it depend on their efficiency (i.e. less efficient is less moral)?

Werwolf was quickly crushed exactly because of the Allied powers’ ruthless disregard for civilian life in the pursuit of military necessities. I recognize this as legitimate. So do you, of course.

The morality you choose to apply to Germany is entirely different, however. It is the kind of unequal morality a slaver seeks to instill in his slave, where any kind of violence perpetrated by the slaver is acceptable and the slave has no right to it at all. My answer to that is: No.

aengus, I’ve been thinking about your statement about the “takeover” of both Americas and Eastern Europe. Please explain what you meant – what about Western Europe?

Hi Entelechy.

I’ve been trying to find the quote (it was linked on HA?) where some Palestinian bigshot basically said that the Muslims would start by conquering Western Europe then expand East and West, conquering the two Americas and Eastern Europe in turn.

They’re more transparent than bond villains in the sense that they are willing to publicly reveal their plans because, I guess, they figure no one in the non-Muslim world is paying attention.

Say what you like about Ernst Stavro Blofeld but at least he didn’t hold press conferences to announce his plans for world domination.

GermanAtheist on May 26, 2008 at 10:25 AM

Somehow I expected the mixing Apples and Oranges (idiomatic expression) excuse. In Clintonspeak it all depends upon what your definition of “genocide” is. To me, it means systematic destruction of a cultural or racial group. Nothing nebulous about that. Shot, gassed, frozen, or starved…. dead is dead.

It’s not my problem to give you examples you want to hear and examples you don’t. Interesting how your concept of human expendability varies. I guess Auschwitz and Dachau were merely intended for “conquest” of the Jews? That may explain how history repeats. It also reminds why the Nuremberg Trials had to be held separate from the Nazi sympathizers infiltrating the German courts post War. Preventing an OJ Simpson trial outcome, of sorts. It also explains why US Army troops had to force march German citizens through the extermination camps to FORCE them to see what they and their once popular Hitler had done.

Anyway. Add Phosgene to the WW I list and the Siege of Leningrad to the WW II where a million Russians civilians froze or starved to death. How about the medical toruture experiments or leaving boxcars of Polish children out to freeze to death. It’s only war to you apparently? Chilling.

War gas became mostly obsolete because the wind kept shifting East and we can’t have the wrong people dying as part of the “conquest.” Hitler’s siege of Leningrad was about as dense as keeping your troops at Stalingrad through the winter. Per your nuclear bomb diversion I’m thankful we developed the bomb before you did lest the V-2 (vengeance weapon rhymes with conquest?)

FARC’s ties with Germany reminds me of a faction in Germany remaining after WW II. They were commonly known as “werewolves.” Nazi sympathizers following the surrender who would blow up bombs in public places to avenge against the Germans whom had abandoned hopes and dreams of world domination and Jewish extermination. I’m glad PattyJ mentions the Baader-Meinhof and Fis(c)her movements because it shows how readily the terrorist elements will take handouts from any givers. Communism like Nazism suits group think terrorists well as both can easily rile the torch carrying villagers into thinking their lynchings serve a greater good.

Complete agreement with Entelechy’s statement that we should give no quarter to any similar factions here. Remember Bin Laden’s statements about how he could use our own system to destroy us. If political correctness (politische korrektheit in 1933) and desire to simply get along (codeword: diversity) can cloud our eyes to defending against outright evil then Bin Laden’s prophecy may come to pass.

Marulanda’s replacement (alias Alfonso Cano) is effectively cornered. The news about the assault on his area area of operations came out last Friday, even before the news of Marulanda’s death. The armed forces are engaged in heavy operations in the La Linea area, which divides Tolima from Quindio. The area is mountainous and it is tough going, but the Colombian forces have mastered their tactics for concentrating and encircling an area of operations. It doesn’t mean that they will get him is a short time, but they will probably either get him, or force his surrender. The Defence Minister Santos said that they didn’t have him encircled and maybe that’s true. But they are gradually closing in on him in his area of operations.

The FARC are in serious trouble, and it’s getting worse for them.

aengus, I’ve been thinking about your statement about the “takeover” of both Americas and Eastern Europe. Please explain what you meant – what about Western Europe?

Also, to be sure, that “nice talking to you” was meant to be “conversing with you”. Note to self – must be more careful not to write the (sloppy) way we speak.

Siege of Paris starvation.
Chlorine in WW I.
Xyklon B in WW II.
SS in Ukraine.

viking01 on May 25, 2008 at 11:59 PM

You are mixing unrelated concepts.

1. People have starved during sieges since the beginning of siege warfare. The British declared all foodstuffs contraband of war in WW1 and consciously starved Germany. I get the impression that you don’t like war, but that is how it works. The aim of a siege is conquest, not genocide.

2. Chemical warfare can be interpreted as outlawed by the Hague Convention of 1907, but it was directed against soldiers and therefore a war crime at best, not genocide. The act of dropping a nuclear bomb on a city must trigger intense rage in you, since your disdain for NBC weapons is apparently very strong.

3+4. No argument there. I only wish you wouldn’t compare it to siege warfare or war in general, but I guess the noble aim of contriving a history of German-perpetrated genocide justifies Holocaust minimization.

That is if “W” and Condi don’t step in, IAW “New Tone”/doormat policies and ask the Columbian gov’t to keep it quiet. Wouldn’t put it past ‘em. DD

Joshka Fisher and G. Schroeder were also “68ers” and while not violent were politically radical.

Siege of Paris starvation.
Chlorine in WW I.
Xyklon B in WW II.
SS in Ukraine.

We’ll call Somme and Verdun a draw.

German is my ancestry (by annexation, technically) though some chapters of it don’t make me proud. Family left well before the Franco-Prussian War partly for safety partly for civil engineering opportunities and democracy alternative to Kaiserdom.

Agreement with the poster calling America the beacon. My great grandparents saw the beacon and followed it. Family over there saw the beacon of America and followed it and defended it or helped others escape to it until the dangers were ended.

Johan Klaus on May 25, 2008 at 11:13 PM

Thanks for that. Lots of good folks of German ancestry here in Texas whose ancestors very likely same that same song.

America is the beacon and the goal. Still. May it always be so.