FARC ties to the German Left?

posted at 11:41 am on May 25, 2008 by Ed Morrissey

Colombia announced the death of the leader of FARC yesterday, and today Der Spiegel reports on the connections between FARC and the German Left. Colombia’s capture of laptops and other intelligence continues to bear fruit as the international network that fed FARC gets more exposed by the week. FARC has connections to East German communists and other radicals that tried overthrowing the Colombian government to re-establish Marxism in South America:

The Colombian guerrilla group FARC isn’t just well connected in the region. According to e-mails found on the laptop of the recently killed FARC commander Raúl Reyes, the group, listed by the European Union as a terrorist organization, also has close ties to the far left in Germany.

Data found on the computer, confiscated following the March bombing raid carried out by Colombia on a guerrilla camp across the border in Ecuador, indicate that Reyes sent his son, Ariel Robespierre Devia, on a secret trip to Berlin in January 2005. It also suggests that while in Germany, Devia, who goes by his alias “Roberto,” met with Wolfgang Gehrcke, then a member of the Party of Democratic Socialism (PDS) — the successor party to the East German Communist party — and now a member of the German parliament with the Left Party and the party’s foreign affairs spokesman.

E-mails on the computer indicate that, according to “Roberto,” Gehrcke suggested that the PDS could back a bid in the European Parliament to remove FARC from the list of terrorist organizations. “It was a very positive meeting,” “Roberto” wrote. “We were able to solidify a number of points to reactivate the solidarity with the fight of the Colombian people.”

“Roberto” also met with representatives of the German Communist Party, and the left-wing daily Junge Welt allegedly offered to assist the FARC publication Resistencia.

For those of us who grew up during the Cold War, this comes as no great shock. Communism always held itself out as a political movement without borders. The Communists openly backed revolutionary “armies” and petty rebels as means of overthrowing capitalism.

East German communists probably backed FARC for decades, only before the fall of the Berlin Wall, they didn’t have to do it as clandestinely as today. With today’s long-overdue sensitivity to terrorism, support for the Colombian Marxists had to be a closely-kept secret. Nevertheless, last year the Left Party tried to push Germany to have FARC removed from the EU’s list of terrorist organizations in order to allow more open support for their activities, even while FARC continued to hold foreign civilians as hostages for ransom.

Specific connections to German politicians could prove embarrassing for the German Left. Gehrcke may not be the last name to surface in this probe. With the reported death of Manuel “Sureshot” Marulanda, Gehrcke and his colleagues may have backed a losing horse, to their detriment.


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Is anyone surprised about this? The only amazing thing to me is that Ted Kennedy’s name wasn’t at the top of the e-mail list.

rmgraha on May 25, 2008 at 11:47 AM

Doesn’t this sound an awful like the jihadists of today?

TexasDude on May 25, 2008 at 11:50 AM

Even more shocking is that an open Marxist is part of the German government, actively working to subvert his own country’s interests.

Maxine Waters (or even Hillary Clinton) isn’t so unique, after all.

Neo on May 25, 2008 at 11:51 AM

Good news, evidentiary proof!

Specific connections to German politicians could prove embarrassing for the German Left.

The uber-left does not embarrass. They’ll press on with their bold face lies all the more determined to make their points everyone’s. And smart-*ss kids online will sing their song, “You just don’t get DEMOCRACY!”

maverick muse on May 25, 2008 at 12:01 PM

We’ve had marxist’s in our congress for many years, Ever heard of DSA ? Democratic Socialists of America, aligned with Socialist International. At one time, over 50 members of congress were members, their names were listed except for a few who had their membership kept secret.

2theright on May 25, 2008 at 12:06 PM

Any love notes from Nancy, Harry, or Barak?

Buzzy on May 25, 2008 at 12:36 PM

These socialist and communist associations will become a major factor as Obama is fully revealed.

T J Green on May 25, 2008 at 12:39 PM

Congratulations to Columbia on getting rid of another terrorist cockroach. I hope the country is getting near the end of the FARC problem. Perhaps then the hundred of innocent people held hostage in the jungles for money can finally be free.

Jill1066 on May 25, 2008 at 12:41 PM

The problem is that we have such an illinformed electorate that they don’t recognize the threat.
Ain’t public school ejukation wonderful?

woodswalking1 on May 25, 2008 at 12:42 PM

Via Gateway Pundit:
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2008/05/farc-rebels-contact-uribe-are-ready-to.html

And, Obama’s close friends, William Ayers and his terrorist wife Bernadine Dohrn, must be feeling horrible today after all of the work they have done with the Marxist terrorists of FARC.
http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2008/04/recurring-ties-between-obama-and.html

suzieviews on May 25, 2008 at 1:05 PM

just like Saddam’s ties to French and Russians… no one will ever report it or admit it… and thus it is swept under the carpet.

Kaptain Amerika on May 25, 2008 at 1:51 PM

I’m shocked, shocked, I tell you! To find in the space of a few weeks that Hugo Chavez is funding marxist guerillas to take out a neighboring government, his compatriot in Ecuador is helping, German leftists are working to legitimize marxist terrorists and the democratic party of the US is aiding in any way they can. One might be led to think that socialists had a plan to take over the entire world, and subjugate its whole population…… And to think all of this came from one little laptop.

Think_b4_speaking on May 25, 2008 at 2:26 PM

Maxine Waters (or even Hillary Clinton) isn’t so unique, after all.

Neo on May 25, 2008 at 11:51 AM

Look, I’m not in love with Hillary, but you can’t compare her with the dumbest of all politicians, Maxine Waters.

On the Germans, the Northern part is all a flaming left. Erich Hoenecker’s ghost is guiding them. All in all they’ll just shrug it off, the lemmings. Schande! Shame!

Entelechy on May 25, 2008 at 3:00 PM

Sorry about the link – here it is.

Entelechy on May 25, 2008 at 3:02 PM

While Colombis has the damaging evidence on the FARC laptops, it has been reluctant to reveal many of the names and countries implicated out of political sensitivity.

I would hope that the intelligence sectors of the nations involved have been alerted and that clandestine investigations are ongoing. There have to be some subversives quaking in their cells right now.

It would not surprise me if some American political players are involved in that too many of them are conducting their own brand of “diplomacy”.

onlineanalyst on May 25, 2008 at 3:18 PM

onlineanalyst, don’t worry. They’ll use it as blackmail or shut-up bait against Chavez. Have you noticed how subdued he’s been ever since?

Entelechy on May 25, 2008 at 3:22 PM

Even more shocking is that an open Marxist is part of the German government, actively working to subvert his own country’s interests.

Neo on May 25, 2008 at 11:51 AM

He is a member of parliament for The Left, which is not part of the coalition government.

On the Germans, the Northern part is all a flaming left.

Entelechy on May 25, 2008 at 3:00 PM

Sort of true, to varying degrees. The actual pinkos (click “Linkspartei”, appropriately colored) are still concentrated in the east where Ostalgia reigns supreme.

Erich Hoenecker’s ghost is guiding them. All in all they’ll just shrug it off, the lemmings. Schande! Shame!

Entelechy on May 25, 2008 at 3:00 PM

Lol, Erich Honecker. I think social coherence is a great thing and if that can be achieved by a degree of voluntary sameness (let’s call it “culture”) as described in the article, then I can’t complain. I certainly don’t like having parallel societies (“communities”) who behave like separate nations within our nation and claim special rights against the rest of us, to the detriment of our common nation. I know the United States takes great pride in disunity and Civil War (see what I did there?), but you must learn to respect our differences and lack thereof.

GermanAtheist on May 25, 2008 at 3:32 PM

but you must learn to respect our differences and lack thereof.

GermanAtheist on May 25, 2008 at 3:32 PM

I must do no such thing, and never will. I have never respected, nor will I ever respect lemmings. An inventive, laborious and intelligent Volk is going quietly over the cliff. Schade, sehr schade. It hurts me deeply as my roots from many generations ago are both schwabian and saxon.

Entelechy on May 25, 2008 at 3:51 PM

And GermanAtheist, it’s not “culture”. It’s ‘superior’ ‘elitism’, but it is not superior, just elitist to call it that.

Entelechy on May 25, 2008 at 3:58 PM

Sorry, should not have put elitism into single quotes.

Entelechy on May 25, 2008 at 3:58 PM

Can’t wait for the list of Democratic Senators and Congressmen to come out.

jdun on May 25, 2008 at 4:02 PM

The Germans voted for change and coherence in 1933 and they sure got it. Those who opposed it were shot, sent to the camps and / or gassed. Adolf highlighted their differences by justifying why Poland should be invaded, the Jews exterminated, France assimilated for Lebensraum and Britain buzzed bombed for “vengeance.” Adolf knew how to put on a big show with lots of theatrics about how destiny, hope and change are, as Dr. Pangloss would say “for the best of all possible worlds.” Apparently that same glassy-eyed yet supercilious arrogance which got Adolf elected and slaughtered millions remains in their national mindset.

viking01 on May 25, 2008 at 4:17 PM

Apparently that same glassy-eyed yet supercilious arrogance which got Adolf elected and slaughtered millions remains in their national mindset.

Is it the German Left’s ties to FARC or GermanAthiests’s comments that prove that Germany is a contemporary hotbed of Nazism?

aengus on May 25, 2008 at 5:01 PM

Entelechy on May 25, 2008 at 3:51 PM

It is a euphemism for “mind your own business”. You are not a citizen, therefore your opinions are suggestions which I am free to dismiss. The same is true if I should ever care enough to propose changes to the political structure of the United States. It is touching that you still feel an attachment to the country that your ancestors left when times were tough and when it was inconvenient to stay, but that changes nothing.

We are certainly not “going quietly over the cliff”, it will be my generation’s duty to see to that. Destroying what remains of our social coherence and national unity is not the way to achieve that end.

The article you linked reeks of British quality press. I am sure that al-Guardian would prefer us to be much more diverse, more multicultural and much less German, but I am unwilling to comply and even their distorted version of SPIEGEL’s survey (elevated to a “study”) sounds fine to me.

It is telling, though, that the Guardian would choose to describe the MG08/15 as a WW2 Wehrmacht weapon, even though the weapon and the idiom date back to WW1. Reading British newspaper articles about Germany is like watching a Dylan Moran stand-up comedy routine.

GermanAtheist on May 25, 2008 at 5:20 PM

Keep up the fight Entelechy. Several of my relatives in the Resistance against Hitler quickly realized that the danger wasn’t just the Reich’s weapons and mechanized killing methods it was and still is the attitude and regimentation.

Next thing you know he’ll be saying we were supposed to invade at Calais instead of Normandy. Never mind Kristallnacht or Auschwitz…. mind your own business, you are not a citizen etc. etc. But thanks for saving their skins from the Russians during the Cold War, ending the dictatorships, for the the military bases, the Berlin Airlift, sorta.

Germany’s problem since Prussian days is group think, excess regimentation and a wholly predictable “mind your own business” routine the instant the prospect of mayhem and holocaust starts goose-stepping around the corner.

viking01 on May 25, 2008 at 5:37 PM

viking01 on May 25, 2008 at 5:37 PM

Keep up the fight? WWII isn’t like the Iraq war where you have to fight for 100 years to achieve your war aims. Its been over for quite a while.

The “mind your own business” routine is called national sovereignty.

aengus on May 25, 2008 at 5:46 PM

It is a euphemism for “mind your own business”. You are not a citizen, therefore your opinions are suggestions which I am free to dismiss.

Slow down ‘cultured’ and ‘superior’ one – while you may dismiss anything, for which I’m happy (at least you show some cojones), I hold 3 citizenships, 2 of which give me a full right to speak on this topic. To be sure, I have my preferred citizenship, and I do know my allegiences well. There is no confusion on this topic, whatever.

The same is true if I should ever care enough to propose changes to the political structure of the United States.

I commend you for some constraint here, though most Europeans, and others around the world, have none whatever when it comes to wishing to meddle in it.

It is touching that you still feel an attachment to the country that your ancestors left when times were tough and when it was inconvenient to stay, but that changes nothing.

You have absolutely no clue of what you speak here, though if interested, you could solve it. Not important at all, and mute, really. But your surmizing is completely off track.

We are certainly not “going quietly over the cliff”, it will be my generation’s duty to see to that. Destroying what remains of our social coherence and national unity is not the way to achieve that end.

First the language dies, then the culture (true culture), then the people.

The article you linked

HA linked it yesterday, in the headlines. I was glad they did.

GermanAtheist on May 25, 2008 at 5:20 PM

Entelechy on May 25, 2008 at 6:06 PM

The “mind your own business” routine is called national sovereignty.

aengus on May 25, 2008 at 5:46 PM

Dear aengus, please remind all of this from now until November, 2008.

p.s. in spite of your tendency to counter my comments on Europe (which I do understand to a point), I do enjoy your comments and respect you highly. Cheers,

Entelechy on May 25, 2008 at 6:09 PM

viking01,

there is a big difference between submission under tyrannies and Marxism, versus voluntary lemming-like behavior in a still free society. The latter is what sickens me.

Entelechy on May 25, 2008 at 6:11 PM

Dear aengus, please remind all of this from now until November, 2008.

I will.

p.s. in spite of your tendency to counter my comments on Europe (which I do understand to a point), I do enjoy your comments and respect you highly. Cheers,

Thank you. Thats very kind.

aengus on May 25, 2008 at 6:13 PM

Also, it appears that our friend, the GermanAtheist, believes that this ‘perfect’ cohesion is what makes Germany superior to, say, Britain. European ‘superiority’, of any kind, is often nauseating, and not at all based in fact. It creeps up in any telephone conversations, in just about any country there.

And GermanAtheist, I sure hope deeply that your generation, as you put it, will fight to retain a country, and a continent. I’m paying a lot for it, in ways I can’t list for you here. Just know that I’m not against you, but rather with you, at least for your survival, if not for your means.

Entelechy on May 25, 2008 at 6:18 PM

Perhaps aengus has misunderstood me. I’m merely suggesting the merit in Entelechy standing firm in his arguments against those whom would suggest he refrain from it merely because he’s not a German citizen. Germany would be Russia had we not saved them from themselves and Stalin in 1945. I get the feeling Entelechy has much wisdom of Hungary in 1956 and of how WW II may have been over ten years earlier (on paper) yet in many ways still was being fought. The same for East Germany and the Balkans.

The inspiration for war of world domination whether it be Al Quaeda, Iran, Third Reich, Rising Sun, Bolsheviks or Maoists tends to be a desire for entitlement through destiny which we’re not supposed to criticize because it’s not our business. Neville Chamberlain’s big error and to some extent also FDR’s. Since we’ve saved Europe from itself at least three times in the 20th century I argue that it is our business and will remain our business especially in dealing with those nations of the world whose ideas of sovereignty immune from criticism have come very close to ending it.

viking01 on May 25, 2008 at 6:26 PM

Slow down ‘cultured’ and ’superior’ one

Entelechy on May 25, 2008 at 6:06 PM

My remark about “culture” was intended as a definition. I did not discuss whether I was “cultured” or “superior”.

I have my preferred citizenship, and I do know my allegiences well.

Entelechy on May 25, 2008 at 6:06 PM

I can see that and I find the whole concept of multiple citizenship disgusting for that very reason.

viking01 on May 25, 2008 at 5:37 PM

A few factual objections:

1. Kennan’s strongpoint containment strategy demanded that the world’s industrial centers were kept out of Soviet hands, which is what motivated the United States’ commitment to Germany’s continued existence as an industrial power under US domination. Governments are not in the business of dispensing charity and even when they do, they really aren’t.

2. Prussia was a stronghold of free thought since the time of Frederick the Great, but duty was always non-negotiable and a key element to its survival in the very hostile political environment of Central Europe.

3. The goose-step was a wonderful Prussian military tradition, which is still in use in armies around the world. It should be reintroduced in Germany as soon as possible.

Germany has regained its sovereignty 18 years ago. It is therefore not surprising that we wield power in a self-determined manner and no accumulation of WW2 buzz words will change that fact.

GermanAtheist on May 25, 2008 at 6:30 PM

viking01, I’ve read about all those wars but am too young to have been in any of them, though not the youngest of chickens either. Also, I’m a lady.

In addition, I’d rather not rehash the past, though we all know it. My peeve is the present allegiance of the lefties from Europe, and from the U.S., if there are any, with FARC, or any such organization. It’s the ostrich type of reaction, from the elite media and the people, to this allegiance which makes my blood boil.

Entelechy on May 25, 2008 at 6:36 PM

Then a couple of pompous Wilhelms came along and blasted all that nostalgia. The penalties of Versailles inspired much resentment and desires for vengeance. A senile or intimidated Hindenburg gives a bombastic, paroled Austrian corporal his endorsement. A triumph of the will mentality is inculcated into a populace seeking vengeance for discomforts. So much to pretend didn’t happen.

viking01 on May 25, 2008 at 6:46 PM

I can see that and I find the whole concept of multiple citizenship disgusting for that very reason.

Your disgust changes nothing. It’s totally legal from a European and a U.S. perspective. It disgusts many U.S. citizens too. Don’t worry, I don’t even bother to renew the other passports, though I could at any time.

Germany has regained its sovereignty 18 years ago. It is therefore not surprising that we wield power in a self-determined manner and no accumulation of WW2 buzz words will change that fact.

GermanAtheist on May 25, 2008 at 6:30 PM

I like your spirit, I really do. Now, increase your defense, reduce the size of those bases and send the Americans home. Rumsfeld had it right on this topic. What happened?

I know, I know, Germany cried for the business losses, and the Americans didn’t want to leave either.

I’m most happy that I got you to fight, even if on the keyboard. I think if we could talk, we’d agree more than we disagree. It’s getting late for you – Gute Nacht – and don’t worry. We’ll always be allies.

Entelechy on May 25, 2008 at 6:48 PM

Entelechy,

Pardon the use of the generic “his” in the old fashion of writing. Were it not for our nation I wonder what would be happening in the former Yugoslavia. I’m thankful Vaclav Havel managed the peaceful divide of the former Czechoslovakia.

I see Communism of today as much the same as when Duranty and Hollywood were cheer leading for Stalin despite goals similar albeit perpendicular to Hitler’s. I see a lot of Europe’s populace, press and those elsewhere still falling for temptations of Socialism, Communism and central control, ignoring the disasters those governments have caused. All the while too many in Europe keep trying to convince themselves that history never repeats.

viking01 on May 25, 2008 at 7:03 PM

I say FARC the left.

- The Cat

MirCat on May 25, 2008 at 7:13 PM

Perhaps aengus has misunderstood me. I’m merely suggesting the merit in Entelechy standing firm in his her arguments against those whom would suggest he she refrain from it merely because he’s she’s not a German citizen.

Perhaps you could address me directly instead of talking about me in the third person. That would be courteous.

Your position as described above is reasonable but it is not all you were merely suggesting.

You suggested that contemporary Germans have (overtly or otherwise) something like the extreme nationalist cultural arrogance of Kaiser Wilhelm II, which no serious person could entertain.

You did this in a very emotional way. If your relatives were killed by the Germans then I am in sympathy with you.

The inspiration for war of world domination whether it be Al Quaeda, Iran, Third Reich, Rising Sun, Bolsheviks or Maoists tends to be a desire for entitlement through destiny which we’re not supposed to criticize because it’s not our business.

Nobody said that. We’re talking about contemporary Germany here.

I’m against world domination by Nazis, Communists or Muslims or anyone.

Since we’ve saved Europe from itself at least three times in the 20th century I argue that it is our business and will remain our business especially in dealing with those nations of the world whose ideas of sovereignty immune from criticism have come very close to ending it.

I was only arguing that GermanAtheist did not have to accept Entelechy’s arguments, not that she should not be allowed to make them.

As far as saving Europe from itself I think you’re generally right though its not all peaches and cream.

The fact is that there is an army of US conservatives who will smear and defame any European makes who any serious effort to halt the Islamisation of Europe while also, in a masterstroke of doublethink, condemning Europeans for failing to stop the Islamisation of Europe in a hail of abuse (cowards, dhimmis, lemmings etc. etc.)

When the thunder and lighting really begin will the US side with the cowardly, fascist Europeans or the poor, benighted peaceful Muslims? The propaganda writes itself.

aengus on May 25, 2008 at 7:13 PM

3. The goose-step was a wonderful Prussian military tradition, which is still in use in armies around the world. It should be reintroduced in Germany as soon as possible.

I disagree with this statement in the strongest terms. Here is George Orwell’s description of the goose step from England Your England which I agree with:

One rapid but fairly sure guide to the social atmosphere of a country is the parade-step of its army. A military parade is really a kind of ritual dance, something like a ballet, expressing a certain philosophy of life. The goose-step, for instance, is one of the most horrible sights in the world, far more terrifying than a dive-bomber. It is simply an affirmation of naked power; contained in it, quite consciously and intentionally, is the vision of a boot crashing down on a face. Its ugliness is part of its essence, for what it is saying is ‘Yes, I am ugly, and you daren’t laugh at me’, like the bully who makes faces at his victim. Why is the goose-step not used in England? There are, heaven knows, plenty of army officers who would be only too glad to introduce some such thing. It is not used because the people in the street would laugh. Beyond a certain point, military display is only possible in countries where the common people dare not laugh at the army. The Italians adopted the goose-step at about the time when Italy passed definitely under German control, and, as one would expect, they do it less well than the Germans. The Vichy government, if it survives, is bound to introduce a stiffer parade-ground discipline into what is left of the French army. In the British army the drill is rigid and complicated, full of memories of the eighteenth century, but without definite swagger; the march is merely a formalized walk. It belongs to a society which is ruled by the sword, no doubt, but a sword which must never be taken out of the scabbard.

aengus on May 25, 2008 at 7:17 PM

Were it not for our nation I wonder what would be happening in the former Yugoslavia.

Christian churches wouldn’t be regularly firebombed in that region and the Serbs would not be persecuted as they now are by the poor, helpless Kosovars Albanians. The EU is as much to blame as the US for this but its still a valid answer to your question.

aengus on May 25, 2008 at 7:36 PM

I like your spirit, I really do. Now, increase your defense, reduce the size of those bases and send the Americans home. Rumsfeld had it right on this topic.

Entelechy on May 25, 2008 at 6:48 PM

I would be the first to support a complete withdrawal of US troops from Europe, but unfortunately that’s not what was being discussed. A relocation to Poland or states farther east still ends up defending Germany, thus discouraging independent defence. Germany could only become a significant military power by taking over the United States’ role as the protector of Continental Europe, maybe together with France (where the problem repeats itself) or within an independent European defence framework. The US has no interest in ever letting that happen and there’s nothing wrong with that either.

aengus on May 25, 2008 at 7:17 PM

Orwell’s writing is an essay on why the enemy sucks. It is what I would expect from any good nationalist, especially in time of war and Orwell really came through here, even though he was a democratic socialist/social-democrat.

The goose-step does not look funny or ugly if performed well, which demands a great deal of discipline and mechanic precision. I find it to be immensely pleasing and empowering, although it does not even matter if the goose-step has independent merit.

GermanAtheist on May 25, 2008 at 8:14 PM

GermanAtheist on May 25, 2008 at 8:14 PM

We can agree to disagree. Or if thats not possible we can disagree to disagree.

aengus on May 25, 2008 at 8:24 PM

The fact is that there is an army of US conservatives who will smear and defame any European makes who any serious effort to halt the Islamisation of Europe while also, in a masterstroke of doublethink, condemning Europeans for failing to stop the Islamisation of Europe in a hail of abuse (cowards, dhimmis, lemmings etc. etc.)

aengus, I sure hope that I never gave you the impression of being in this camp. To you, and to GermanAtheist, I’d like nothing better than a strong and independent Europe, allied with the U.S., to defend ourselves against any enemies. In fact, in spite of the elites, and the popular ‘peace’ drives, this is what our governments do. I’m thankful for that. I’d just like reality to set in, versus the rule of a Utopian dream, while being taken over, ‘peacefully’.

When the thunder and lighting really begin will the US side with the cowardly, fascist Europeans or the poor, benighted peaceful Muslims? The propaganda writes itself.

aengus on May 25, 2008 at 7:13 PM

You hit upon a very serious dilemma. I’ve thought about this, in fact. When the “thunder” begins, and it is unavoidable on a future date, pehaps not so far out, the U.S. will probably help both sides. They are going to have to be the ones who will help save the lives of Muslims in Europe too. How great it would be if we could discuss all this over drinks, really. I don’t think there would be much disagreement.

Entelechy on May 25, 2008 at 8:26 PM

When I was last in southern Germany, I was visiting a friend, who, like me is very conservative. He was commenting on the U.S., and our “lack of concern” about the enviroment. I did not really realize the extent that the “greens” propaganda had permeated the European culture. I gave him my opinion about the communist using enviromentalism to gain control, but he was not buying. I do not believe that their is not much hope left.

Johan Klaus on May 25, 2008 at 8:26 PM

viking01, no worries on the address. The discussions are way more important.

aengus on May 25, 2008 at 7:36 PM

We agree that both are at fault, but surely Europe should have initiated something sooner and kicked Clinton (Bill) in the shin to get going, busy as he was otherwise.

Entelechy on May 25, 2008 at 8:32 PM

Johan Klaus, I have those converasations every week, on myriad of topics, across a variety of countries, and I’m not even a registered conservative. I’ll remain an independent for life, happily.

p.s. Der treue Husar – wer ist die gute Dame?

Entelechy on May 25, 2008 at 8:37 PM

Entelechy on May 25, 2008 at 8:26 PM

If the muslims try to forcibly take over Europe, the U.S. should not get involved on the side of the muslims. National sovereignty and all.

Johan Klaus on May 25, 2008 at 8:38 PM

Many debate forums on the internet, Lcom for example, discourage chatting hence my tendency to refrain from same here. Participation in various forums (here, CQ , etc.) causes me to aim for consistency to the topic at all rather than chat for here and there. I can see why Lucianne encourages it so as to keep the bickering minimal and the topics central.

I apologize for not realizing aengus was seeking to be offended. Direct chat room usually isn’t my style, your highness. See above.

Certainly there’s a way to blame the USA for that too!

Germany has an obvious historic tendency to invade others in August under the cloak of Destiny. Yes, one of those world domination ventures resulted in the beheading by Hitler’s judge of two relatives. There’s a famous memorial to them in Munich of which some here may be aware. What I suspect many are not aware is the cultural friction between former East Germany and former West Germany despite the reunification. Some of that has been readily noticeably during visits there. A drumbeat of social engineering which has caused so much trouble and bloodshed in their past where resentment too often escalates to warfare.

Goose-stepping is neither here nor there (see Ministry of Silly Walks) unless it means Anschluss followed by Poland and France followed by Holocaust all directed by Socialism and toadies like Pierre Laval, of course. If the Nazis had skipped across the border it would be just as bad. But doing the same thing three times between the 1870s and 1945 certainly doesn’t suggest a trend does it?

viking01 on May 25, 2008 at 8:44 PM

But doing the same thing three times between the 1870s and 1945 certainly doesn’t suggest a trend does it?

viking01 on May 25, 2008 at 8:44 PM

Did we conduct three genocides between 1870 and 1945? I don’t recall. Unless you are referring to wars against France, then let me tell you that there were many more than that and we only started winning when we unified. That’s part of the reason why Germans like unity and strength, you see. When you are busy fighting Muslims at Vienna and France decides to burn the Palatinate because it’s fun and because they have allied with the enemies of Europe, you might be tempted to rethink the value of power. When France demands the annihilation of several German states in order to establish a new border on the Rhine, because they have missed out on colonizing Egypt, you might be led to value unity.

The famous scene in “Casablanca” actually shows German soldiers singing “The Watch on the Rhine”, a song about defending Germany against French aggression. This poor choice resulted from the fact that the Horst Wessel song was still protected by copyright in neutral states. The French reply is to proudly sing their bloodthirsty anthem. Oh, the irony.

GermanAtheist on May 25, 2008 at 9:16 PM

aengus, I sure hope that I never gave you the impression of being in this camp.

To be honest you have given me this impression on many occasions though I doubt this was your conscious or even unconscious intention.

The debate is always framed in a dishonest way so that there is a false dichotomy between cowards and fascists. If you don’t defend yourself you’re a coward and if you do you’re a fascist. Mark Steyn’s comment that “Europeans are the new Jews” is more revealing than he intended.

The hatred of Western Europeans by US conservatives has passed from some point in the last seven years from disapproval to irrationality.

Ed Morrissey, on this blog, posted a famous photograph of a Frenchman crying because his country was conquered by the Germans to general amusement and mockery. As asinine as the French are sometimes are I think that this attitude is shockingly heartless.

You hit upon a very serious dilemma. I’ve thought about this, in fact. When the “thunder” begins, and it is unavoidable on a future date, pehaps not so far out, the U.S. will probably help both sides.

Helping both sides in a war is not a coherent policy. The Muslims are colonists and they intend to take over Western Europe at which point they will “conquer the two Americas and Eastern Europe”.

They are going to have to be the ones who will help save the lives of Muslims in Europe.

Because the barbaric Europeans will murder them all otherwise? The Muslims are invaders waging an aggressive war to conquer Europe. If you want to come over and act as a human shield fair enough but the best way to protect the innocent, put-upon Muslims is to deport them back to their failed countries.

How great it would be if we could discuss all this over drinks, really.

We are discussing this over drinks. At least I am. :)

I don’t think there would be much disagreement.

I doubt that.

aengus on May 25, 2008 at 9:17 PM

I apologize for not realizing aengus was seeking to be offended. Direct chat room usually isn’t my style, your highness. See above.

I was not seeking to be offended. Addressing someone directly is standard at HotAir. You don’t have to mockingly refer to me as “your highness”.

Have I insulted you? No, I haven’t.

Certainly there’s a way to blame the USA for that too!

I agreed with you generally while making one criticism of the USA as an addendum.

Yes, one of those world domination ventures resulted in the beheading by Hitler’s judge of two relatives. There’s a famous memorial to them in Munich of which some here may be aware.

I’m sorry to hear that.

aengus on May 25, 2008 at 9:31 PM

viking01 on May 25, 2008 at 8:44 PM

My grandfather told me that there was a saying that I believe was amoung the Goths or Huns, “that it was more honorable to conquer and pillage, than to be a farmer.

Johan Klaus on May 25, 2008 at 9:32 PM

p.s. Der treue Husar – wer ist die gute Dame?

Entelechy on May 25, 2008 at 8:37 PM

Neu-Ulm

Johan Klaus on May 25, 2008 at 9:44 PM

We agree that both are at fault, but surely Europe should have initiated something sooner and kicked Clinton (Bill) in the shin to get going, busy as he was otherwise.

Entelechy on May 25, 2008 at 8:32 PM

I reject the idea that Europeans were duty-bound to “do something” about this situation.

On their borders, on my! As your typical NR columnist puts it.

When Blair finally convinced Clinton to “do something” about this situation it was to bomb a Christian country into accepting giving up territory to hostile Muslim aggressors.

They kicked him (Clinton) in the shin alright and he got going as soon as Blair convinced him the ensuing air war would not cost enough casualties to damage him in the polls.

aengus on May 25, 2008 at 9:49 PM

aengus on May 25, 2008 at 9:49 PM
When Blair finally convinced Clinton to “do something” about this situation it was to bomb a Christian country into accepting giving up territory to hostile Muslim aggressors.

Right on target and with complicity of the press.

Johan Klaus on May 25, 2008 at 9:57 PM

but the best way to protect the innocent, put-upon Muslims is to deport them back to their failed countries.

aengus on May 25, 2008 at 9:17 PM

aengus, I’m for a strong and independent Europe. I’m also against the multi-culti baloney going on there. I don’t know how I could have given you the impression you stated, if I’ve been against all the soft touches all along. Remember that I’m from a country which was occupied by the Turks for hundreds of years, and no thank you for ever again.

aengus and Johan Klaus, I was not for the U.S. being with both sides, just for protecting the Mulslims that wouldn’t fight against Europe or the U.S. If, as aengus states, deporting them would protect them, that’s fine by me (just like I wouldn’t have wanted all the Germans in the U.S. to be killed, just because Hitler was waging war…)

Entelechy on May 25, 2008 at 9:57 PM

Remember that I’m from a country which was occupied by the Turks for hundreds of years, and no thank you for ever again.

I don’t remember which country you’re from though I’m sure you’ve told me before more than once.

I argue every chance I get that mass deportation would prevent war and save millions of lives, Muslim and non-Muslim. It is, I hold, the moral course of action.

I recently made this argument on a Christian blog. (Content warning: If you are squeamish about racial or religious topics don’t click on the link.)

After WWII 16 million Germans were deported to Germany from European nations. How people have to die before the Muslims are deported to their original countries?

aengus on May 25, 2008 at 10:13 PM

Freedom and Islam cannot co-exist.

Johan Klaus on May 25, 2008 at 10:15 PM

The hatred of Western Europeans by US conservatives has passed from some point in the last seven years from disapproval to irrationality.

While this “hatred” is insane, so is the irrational anti-Americanism (anti-U.S.) of late. I know it well, first hand, as I speak with Europe on the phone weekly, and go there often enough.

I doubt that.

aengus on May 25, 2008 at 9:17 PM

I don’t doubt it myself, having followed your comments for a long time, ever since on HA. For example I would agree for Europe to tighten its immigration policies. The governments, and the people, outside of your side, disagree. Deportation would raise their hairs, and the U.S.’s

After WWII 16 million Germans were deported to Germany from European nations. How people have to die before the Muslims are deported to their original countries?

aengus on May 25, 2008 at 10:13 PM

Long personal story here, for another time. But guess what? The U.S. and others were vehemently against the repatriation of people of German origins, having yammered at Germany for not being diverse enough. I could write books about this topic. Yes, Germany can’t win for losing, often. It was told for so long to submit, and to be pacifist, and now we accuse it for being, yes, pacifist.

I have not read linked argument yet, but will do that now.

It is a pleasure always to talk to you aengus, and be assured that I adore myriad of things European, while living here. I have the best of both worlds, and wouldn’t trade all the privileges, including the hard work, for nothing.

I do not hate the French, nor the Germans, nor the British, nor any populace. There are many things European which are unsurpassed, and I can list them all. I can also list you the things American (U.S.) which are wanting, but that’s not the topic.

Entelechy on May 25, 2008 at 10:31 PM

aengus, your words, from the link you provided

does it follow then that non-white immigrants accepted lawfully into a Western polity have a given right to demand that these nations change to accommodate them?

No, it doesn’t follow. Non-white, or white for that matter, immigrants should adjust to the country and not the other way around. We experience it with the illegal immigration out of control, as you know from those threads. Though, to be clear, they don’t want us to convert to sharia.

Entelechy on May 25, 2008 at 10:46 PM

Entelechy,

You are a gracious lady. I have to go to bed now to be up in the morning. We’ll discuss these issues in the future I am sure.

Goodnight and God bless.

aengus on May 25, 2008 at 10:56 PM

Good night aengus. I enjoy talking to you very much and look forward to continue. Best regards to you and family,

Entelechy on May 25, 2008 at 11:00 PM

The ” Immigrants Waltz” that was written by Daniel Klapuch, sums up my Grandfathers feelings. ” Breslau ship of dreams, carry me home to America….sailing my path to freedom….cotton fields wait for two willing hands….seventeen days of cold lonely nights, the morning sun brings a heavenly sight….the gray Texas sand welcomes me….”

Johan Klaus on May 25, 2008 at 11:13 PM

Johan Klaus on May 25, 2008 at 11:13 PM

Thanks for that. Lots of good folks of German ancestry here in Texas whose ancestors very likely same that same song.

America is the beacon and the goal. Still. May it always be so.

techno_barbarian on May 25, 2008 at 11:38 PM

GermanAtheist on May 25, 2008 at 9:16 PM
Did we conduct three genocides between 1870 and 1945?

Siege of Paris starvation.
Chlorine in WW I.
Xyklon B in WW II.
SS in Ukraine.

We’ll call Somme and Verdun a draw.

German is my ancestry (by annexation, technically) though some chapters of it don’t make me proud. Family left well before the Franco-Prussian War partly for safety partly for civil engineering opportunities and democracy alternative to Kaiserdom.

Agreement with the poster calling America the beacon. My great grandparents saw the beacon and followed it. Family over there saw the beacon of America and followed it and defended it or helped others escape to it until the dangers were ended.

viking01 on May 25, 2008 at 11:59 PM

The German Left has had connections to foreign terrorists, even those thought to be their ideological opposites, for decades. The East German CP supported Konkret, the radical newspaper of Klaus Rohl and Ulrike Meinhof, in the 60s. The Baader-Meinhof gang and its offshoots got weapons and training in the Bekaa Valley and hijacked the airliner that ended in Entebbe. Very strange for a movement that started as a guilt reaction to residual Naziism in Germany…

Joshka Fisher and G. Schroeder were also “68ers” and while not violent were politically radical.

PattyJ on May 26, 2008 at 12:21 AM

This is to be expected from “old Europe”. But I’m anxious to hear what the data on those laptops reveals regarding the U.S. press and the democrat party.

That is if “W” and Condi don’t step in, IAW “New Tone”/doormat policies and ask the Columbian gov’t to keep it quiet. Wouldn’t put it past ‘em. DD

Darvin Dowdy on May 26, 2008 at 12:32 AM

wow. lotta German bashing here. Perhaps I’m just a bit sensitive having spent quite a big hunk of my youth there born to a German mother.
I never understood the point of bringing up some of these past battles and wars when relating to German politics especially if you are completely willing to ignore the factors from the other side that caused them as it makes your arguments sound utterly foolish.
Are there far leftists in German politics? Sure. There are many in US politics. There are morons in great societies who somehow feel if the goings too good they have to find something somehow that is ‘wrong’ with it and tear it all down.
This report isn’t so much shocking as it is a sad confirmation that in any great society there are factions working hard to bring it down.

MannyT-vA on May 26, 2008 at 7:25 AM

Siege of Paris starvation.
Chlorine in WW I.
Xyklon B in WW II.
SS in Ukraine.

viking01 on May 25, 2008 at 11:59 PM

You are mixing unrelated concepts.

1. People have starved during sieges since the beginning of siege warfare. The British declared all foodstuffs contraband of war in WW1 and consciously starved Germany. I get the impression that you don’t like war, but that is how it works. The aim of a siege is conquest, not genocide.

2. Chemical warfare can be interpreted as outlawed by the Hague Convention of 1907, but it was directed against soldiers and therefore a war crime at best, not genocide. The act of dropping a nuclear bomb on a city must trigger intense rage in you, since your disdain for NBC weapons is apparently very strong.

3+4. No argument there. I only wish you wouldn’t compare it to siege warfare or war in general, but I guess the noble aim of contriving a history of German-perpetrated genocide justifies Holocaust minimization.

GermanAtheist on May 26, 2008 at 10:25 AM

Yes, Manny, Americans too are noted in the FARC records, like a US congressman, but few media have reported this. Could it be because he’s a Democrat? Ties to Farc?

PattyJ on May 26, 2008 at 12:13 PM

Holding the European lefties to account doesn’t mean giving the U.S. ones a break. Both fit nicely into the same rotten category of propping socialists/Marxists/tyrants, and will sooner than later lead to the demise of the West.

aengus, I’ve been thinking about your statement about the “takeover” of both Americas and Eastern Europe. Please explain what you meant – what about Western Europe?

Also, to be sure, that “nice talking to you” was meant to be “conversing with you”. Note to self – must be more careful not to write the (sloppy) way we speak.

Entelechy on May 26, 2008 at 1:36 PM

Just a comment on the death of Marulanda. Apert from the fact that this is big news, and apart from the fact that in three months 3 of the Secretariat of the FARC have been eliminated, and apart from the desertions of high and mid-level FARC leaders, there is another piece of big news in this (as if all this wasn’t enough).

Marulanda’s replacement (alias Alfonso Cano) is effectively cornered. The news about the assault on his area area of operations came out last Friday, even before the news of Marulanda’s death. The armed forces are engaged in heavy operations in the La Linea area, which divides Tolima from Quindio. The area is mountainous and it is tough going, but the Colombian forces have mastered their tactics for concentrating and encircling an area of operations. It doesn’t mean that they will get him is a short time, but they will probably either get him, or force his surrender. The Defence Minister Santos said that they didn’t have him encircled and maybe that’s true. But they are gradually closing in on him in his area of operations.

The FARC are in serious trouble, and it’s getting worse for them.

Blaise on May 26, 2008 at 4:12 PM

You are mixing unrelated concepts.

GermanAtheist on May 26, 2008 at 10:25 AM

Somehow I expected the mixing Apples and Oranges (idiomatic expression) excuse. In Clintonspeak it all depends upon what your definition of “genocide” is. To me, it means systematic destruction of a cultural or racial group. Nothing nebulous about that. Shot, gassed, frozen, or starved…. dead is dead.

It’s not my problem to give you examples you want to hear and examples you don’t. Interesting how your concept of human expendability varies. I guess Auschwitz and Dachau were merely intended for “conquest” of the Jews? That may explain how history repeats. It also reminds why the Nuremberg Trials had to be held separate from the Nazi sympathizers infiltrating the German courts post War. Preventing an OJ Simpson trial outcome, of sorts. It also explains why US Army troops had to force march German citizens through the extermination camps to FORCE them to see what they and their once popular Hitler had done.

Anyway. Add Phosgene to the WW I list and the Siege of Leningrad to the WW II where a million Russians civilians froze or starved to death. How about the medical toruture experiments or leaving boxcars of Polish children out to freeze to death. It’s only war to you apparently? Chilling.

War gas became mostly obsolete because the wind kept shifting East and we can’t have the wrong people dying as part of the “conquest.” Hitler’s siege of Leningrad was about as dense as keeping your troops at Stalingrad through the winter. Per your nuclear bomb diversion I’m thankful we developed the bomb before you did lest the V-2 (vengeance weapon rhymes with conquest?)

FARC’s ties with Germany reminds me of a faction in Germany remaining after WW II. They were commonly known as “werewolves.” Nazi sympathizers following the surrender who would blow up bombs in public places to avenge against the Germans whom had abandoned hopes and dreams of world domination and Jewish extermination. I’m glad PattyJ mentions the Baader-Meinhof and Fis(c)her movements because it shows how readily the terrorist elements will take handouts from any givers. Communism like Nazism suits group think terrorists well as both can easily rile the torch carrying villagers into thinking their lynchings serve a greater good.

Complete agreement with Entelechy’s statement that we should give no quarter to any similar factions here. Remember Bin Laden’s statements about how he could use our own system to destroy us. If political correctness (politische korrektheit in 1933) and desire to simply get along (codeword: diversity) can cloud our eyes to defending against outright evil then Bin Laden’s prophecy may come to pass.

viking01 on May 26, 2008 at 5:41 PM

aengus, I’ve been thinking about your statement about the “takeover” of both Americas and Eastern Europe. Please explain what you meant – what about Western Europe?

Hi Entelechy.

I’ve been trying to find the quote (it was linked on HA?) where some Palestinian bigshot basically said that the Muslims would start by conquering Western Europe then expand East and West, conquering the two Americas and Eastern Europe in turn.

They’re more transparent than bond villains in the sense that they are willing to publicly reveal their plans because, I guess, they figure no one in the non-Muslim world is paying attention.

Say what you like about Ernst Stavro Blofeld but at least he didn’t hold press conferences to announce his plans for world domination.

aengus on May 26, 2008 at 8:19 PM

It’s only war to you apparently? Chilling.

viking01 on May 26, 2008 at 5:41 PM

Brrrrr! I made a clear distinction between warfare and related civilian deaths on one side and the “systematic destruction of a cultural or racial group” on the other side, which you simply neglected to do despite your acceptable definition.

You have limited your reply concerning WMDs to a comment on their usefulness. Does a universal morality exist that guides their use and does it depend on their efficiency (i.e. less efficient is less moral)?

Werwolf was quickly crushed exactly because of the Allied powers’ ruthless disregard for civilian life in the pursuit of military necessities. I recognize this as legitimate. So do you, of course.

The morality you choose to apply to Germany is entirely different, however. It is the kind of unequal morality a slaver seeks to instill in his slave, where any kind of violence perpetrated by the slaver is acceptable and the slave has no right to it at all. My answer to that is: No.

GermanAtheist on May 26, 2008 at 8:35 PM

GermanAtheist on May 26, 2008 at 8:35 PM

I agree with this comment. viking01 still has not even attempted to prove his earlier argument – which seems to underlie the mental atmosphere of all of his comments – that contemporary Germans are a mere iota away from re-adopting Nazism and attempting to commit mass genocide and conquer the world.

aengus on May 26, 2008 at 8:45 PM

Semana magazine published the letters and emails that prove the contacts that Obama and other Democrats have had with the FARC. Those contacts were validated by INTERPOL this past week. Do Obama’s contacts with terrorists not bother anyone?

elduende on May 26, 2008 at 8:50 PM

No rage here GermanAtheist. Only disdain. Define “moral weapons.” That should be interesting. Culpability of inanimate objects, perhaps? Are you a slave? Then don’t pretend. “Siege happens” sounds surprisingly similar to the old political “they all do it excuse.”

Since this is rapidly approaching circular arguments let’s just say GermanAtheist should be thankful America defeated as much of his nation as it did before the Russians could inflict their vengeance for what his nation chose to do to them. If you consider the Allies ruthless be careful for what you have wished for lest Moscow having been the one to determine your fate. All could have been easily avoided by not invading France or Poland. Ooops. Annexing France tends to cause hardship.

My brief response to testy Aengus is that I’m not attempting nor will attempt to prove any widespread rebirth of Nazism. They have their skinheads, we have our skinheads. Whether the guise is Communism or Nazism whatever the culture of vengeance will cloak itself in the most convenient garment available. Yet anyone who has visited Germany in the post Cold War era can readily see the counterculture group think which would not hesitate to support FARC or similar guerillas against imaginary slavemasters within their Germany as much as without. To suggest the entire nation is a “mere iota” away from Hitler’s rebirth is quite a stretch. Yet the willingness of the counterculture to militarize is clearly there particularly among those attempting to excuse prior conduct while suggesting they need to shed the imaginary chains of oppressors they once invaded.

viking01 on May 26, 2008 at 9:39 PM

A final note. Much of the youth unrest in Germany is directed against the Turks. During the 1980s it was fashionable to encourage Turkish immigration to work the factories cheaply. As those immigration numbers increased and native Germans’ jobs were displaced so did the friction between the two cultures. Britain and France also welcomed unchecked immigration of Middle East and Indus Valley immigrants. Those cultures too have begun to clash with the rebellious youth elements choosing to riot (particularly in France late 2006 and early 2007). The Dutch can see and learn from what happened to Theo van Gogh. London can be a dangerous city sometimes. Those whom have traveled recently to all of those places can see the rip tides beginning where the waters had been smooth. It doesn’t take a huge number of punks to effectively burn sections of south Paris as happened a year or so ago. Just a ready excuse and enough others to excuse them.

viking01 on May 26, 2008 at 9:53 PM

My brief response to testy Aengus

I’m not testy. On the contrary I’ve responded to you politely, addressed you in a courteous fashion and expressed my sympathy for your family’s losses.

You keep referring to me in terms of someone who has insulted or ridiculed you but I clearly have not. I don’t know why you do.

Yet the willingness of the counterculture to militarize is clearly there particularly among those attempting to excuse prior conduct while suggesting they need to shed the imaginary chains of oppressors they once invaded.

I don’t see it myself. You’re welcome to provide unsourced quotes, anecdotes, circumstantial evidence – anything – to back up your statements. You just keep asserting something over and over and expect everyone to agree with you. Serious debate does not work that way.

aengus on May 26, 2008 at 9:53 PM

aengus on May 26, 2008 at 8:19 PM

Thank you, aengus. It’s now clear that Western Europe is not left out, but is first on their plan. May this scorch and menace be fiercely defeated, no matter what it will take. I’m afraid that glove treatment and multi-culti, PC and elitism will not do the job.

Entelechy on May 26, 2008 at 10:26 PM

elduende on May 26, 2008 at 8:50 PM

Are you able to post a link on the article about Obama? I located the online magazine, but I cannot read/understand the language.

onlineanalyst on May 26, 2008 at 11:06 PM

Pfft.

Sometimes Aengus when you think I’ve been referring to you in the third person I have not. My first thoughts in the morning aren’t your opinions of what circles and diagrams constitutes serious. Therefore unless I have addressed you specifically please keep any ego or presumption in check.

The weak contention you make that I somehow expect everyone to agree with me is pure pompous bull@#!% (self-edited).

You’re simply not worth more of my time.

viking01 on May 26, 2008 at 11:09 PM

Irish Republican militants…, the kind feted at just about every American St Patick’s Day parade, also have an interesting relationship with the nefarious FARC and other terror paramilitaries.

lexhamfox on May 27, 2008 at 1:22 AM

Therefore unless I have addressed you specifically please keep any ego or presumption in check.

You addressed me by name so I replied.

You’re simply not worth more of my time.

Whatever, dude.

aengus on May 27, 2008 at 4:28 AM

LOL

The continuation of Aengus patronizing attitude is duly noted.

viking01 on May 27, 2008 at 11:31 AM

A final note. Much of the youth unrest in Germany is directed against the Turks.

viking01 on May 26, 2008 at 9:53 PM

Perpetrated by the Turks.

During the 1980s it was fashionable to encourage Turkish immigration to work the factories cheaply. As those immigration numbers increased and native Germans’ jobs were displaced so did the friction between the two cultures.

viking01 on May 26, 2008 at 9:53 PM

In the 1950s, because our young workers were dead, which was fashionable back then. Those guest workers were never intended to stay and initially, they were even part of a rotation system and required to leave after a short duration. Now that they have stayed some time and no intention to leave, the guest worker program has been retroactively declared a lie. We have paid them well for their work and no moral obligation demands that we rescue those people from their failed nation.

Britain and France also welcomed unchecked immigration of Middle East and Indus Valley immigrants.

viking01 on May 26, 2008 at 9:53 PM

Those were citizens of their former empires and really eager to come to the evil, evil nations they had “liberated” themselves from.

Your unlimited love for the enemies of Europe is quite revealing. It is completely pointless to continue to discuss matters vital for our survival with someone who so obviously wants us to perish. It is NEVER going to happen. Feel free to continue to call us Nazis because of it.

GermanAtheist on May 27, 2008 at 3:13 PM