GOP strategists fantasize about McCain landslide; Update: Landslide canceled!
posted at 2:01 pm on May 24, 2008 by Allahpundit
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“Landslide” being a relative term: If all goes well he could win by 50 electoral votes, greater than either of Bush’s margins over two inferior Democrats. I don’t buy it, but admittedly that’s due more to my own natural knee-jerk pessimism and the hunch that the GOP brand is so poisoned that not even McCain will be immune than to any substantive analytical reason. Yeah, Obama’s money advantage will be enormous, but he’s been outspending Hillary too and she’s still pounding him in battleground states. And yeah, he’s going to mobilize black voters like no one before him, but McCain maybe can make that up among Latinos and independents leery of Wright. None of which is to say he will win, merely that he’s not a sure loser the way any other Republican would have been this year.
Among the 10 strategists interviewed by Politico for this story, there was near-uniform belief that had any other Republican been nominated, the party’s prospects in November would be nil…
The case they make for a comfortable McCain win is not beyond reason. Begin with the 2004 electoral map. Add Iowa and Colorado to Obama’s side, since both are considered states Obama could pick off. Then count McCain victories in New Hampshire and Michigan, two states where McCain is competitive. In this scenario, McCain wins the Electoral College 291-246, a larger margin than Bush four years ago.
If Obama managed only to win Iowa from Republicans and McCain managed only to win Pennsylvania, McCain would still win by a much greater margin than Bush — 300-237…
Even the potentially dramatic rise in turnout of African-Americans may only gain Obama 1 percentage point in many swing states, according to Maslin. Yet Obama’s weaknesses may end up neutralizing some of those relatively modest gains.
All right, here’s a substantive reason for why Obama will win: organization. This is Karl’s hobbyhorse, that the media overlooks the effect of nuts and bolts GOTV efforts for sexier angles about race and gender. The most surprising thing to me about the campaign thus far is how Team Barry has been able to compete with the Clinton machine, which probably could have and would have won (its many mistakes notwithstanding) against almost any other novice politician. If he’s savvy enough to outmaneuver an operation staffed by associates of a two-term president, I’m guessing he’s savvy enough to beat a guy whose own operations aren’t up to normal GOP standards and whose party advantage in voter targeting ain’t what it used to be.
Just in case McCain does win, though, the post-election narrative is already being set. Exit question: Anyone surprised to find Newsweek, a magazine that reduced 40 years of Republican victories to “successfully scaring voters,” wielding something called a “Racial Resentment Index”?
Update: Right on point, yet somehow I missed it. I’m slipping.
Senator John McCain’s presidential campaign is in a troubled stretch, hindered by resignations of staff members, a lagging effort to build a national campaign organization and questions over whether he has taken full advantage of Democratic turmoil to present a case for his candidacy, Republicans said.
In interviews, some party leaders said they were worried about signs of disorder in his campaign, and whether the focus in the last several weeks on the prominent role of lobbyists in Mr. McCain’s inner circle might undercut the heart of his general election message: presenting himself as a reformer taking on special interests in Washington…
Some state party leaders said they were apprehensive about the unusual organization Mr. McCain had set up: the campaign has been broken into 10 semi-autonomous regions, with each having power over things like television advertising and the candidate’s schedule, decisions normally left to headquarters.
More than that, they said, Mr. McCain organizationally still seems far behind where President Bush was in 2004. Several Republican Party leaders said they were worried the campaign was losing an opportunity as they waited for approval to open offices and set up telephone banks.
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Legend,
When you are at a forward operating base this shit happens. No worries. I’ve seen and have it on good intel that the impostors are mostly full of puffery while being children afraid of the dark.
Night’s coming.
patrick neid on May 24, 2008 at 6:41 PM
Sadly a Democrat is sure to win but still that might just be McCain. I know a lot of Liberals that aren’t happy with Obama’s vision of a socialist third world America, if Hillary folds they’ll vote for McCain and not Obama.
Buzzy on May 24, 2008 at 6:59 PM
There hasn’t been a politician as effective as McCain running since LBJ in 1964. Consider how much legislation is named McCain-xxx. Who will vote against McCain is my question. Besides the blacks, who vote 90% for Dems every year anyway. Yes, race will be an issue, because it’s so important to the Obamessiah (PBUH) himself. Just read his autobio “Dreams from my Father”. Don’t blame Whitey for Obama’s interest in his black identity. That’s his own doing, that’s his choice, and if you think voting against him because he sees himself as black first, American second is racism, then have at it.
Paul-Cincy on May 24, 2008 at 7:03 PM
heh…I better start taking names down of everyone who keeps saying McCain doesn’t have a chance at winning. There’s a good crow recipe I’m dying to serve…
JetBoy on May 24, 2008 at 7:19 PM
Now granted, I haven’t read all the other posts and really don’t care to if any of them are like “Paul-Cincy”. If McCain doesn’t get with the program then I might just not vote at all even if bHo is the dem ticket Because he’s sounding more and more like a dem than ever before!!!
John………who the hell are you???????????
jerrytbg on May 24, 2008 at 7:21 PM
I have no problem saying McCain is probably going to win; I’m looking forward to seeing folks like you who actually think this is a good thing eat crow when McCain drives our economy into the toilet with this global warming horsesh*t. Oh yes, this recession is much better than an Obama recession would have been. And this amnesty, it’s so much easier to swallow since McCain rammed it down my throat..I’m not denying reality. McCain probably will win. I just don’t see it as anything to look forward too.
austinnelly on May 24, 2008 at 7:24 PM
austinnelly on May 24, 2008 at 7:24 PM
Thankyou!!!!
jerrytbg on May 24, 2008 at 7:26 PM
JetBoy on May 24, 2008 at 7:19 PM
so, you think McCain winning is a GOOD thing?
jerrytbg on May 24, 2008 at 7:29 PM
Well, as I’ve said before, I truly believe a McCain presidency will be great for this country. I just think you’re misinformed about McCain and the whole global warming thing.
I don’t believe it’s man-made, or man-fixable either. But McCain isn’t going to promote anything like Kyoto. He’s more a Teddy Roosevelt, only wanting to preserve our natural resources. Not sign away our economy based on manbearpig.
And as for amnesty…too many simply think McCain is going to open the borders and issue immediate citizenship. When that’s the furthest thing from the truth. He’s said he’d seal the borders. Build the fence. I mean, he ain’t POTUS yet.
Just give the man a chance. His integrity, honor, and duty to country are a great foundation for a great 4 years.
JetBoy on May 24, 2008 at 7:29 PM
I really do. And yes…I am a conservative.
JetBoy on May 24, 2008 at 7:30 PM
JetBoy on May 24, 2008 at 7:29 PM
You wouldn’t be in the market for a BRIDGE somewhere would you?
jerrytbg on May 24, 2008 at 7:33 PM
JetBoy on May 24, 2008 at 7:30 PM
no you’re not, you’re a rino.
jerrytbg on May 24, 2008 at 7:34 PM
:-P
heh…
Look, I just think the whole “amnesty” thing is blown WAY out of proportion. Same with McCain’s global warming stance. At first, I was a Fred-Head long before there were Fred-Heads. But when he dropped out, it was McCain all the way for me. And Fred’s endorsed him. So have so many other prominent conservatives.
Why can’t y’all?
JetBoy on May 24, 2008 at 7:35 PM
I’ve seen and have it on good intel that the
impostorsMcCainiacs are mostly full ofpufferymisguided optimism while being children afraid of the dark skinned person on the Democrat side.Truer words have never been spoken.
Best to prepare for it, because your guy is going to turn off the lights nearly as quickly as the other guy… And probably with longer lasting negative effect.
I’m well stocked with AN/PVS-7s and everything else needed to own the night…. How is your supply?
Got enough food and water hunkered down there in your bunker? Those of us who control the RIGHT flank can live off the land during this coming four year siege. Those on the left flank can’t because they have neither the skills or the training…. So maybe when they start starving and are out of ammo, you guys in the center can escape by going left. But you gotta be careful. There are a lot of them, and they are cannibalistic.
;-)
(I’m kind of joking with you, but there is more than a kernal of truth in this joke.)
LegendHasIt on May 24, 2008 at 7:37 PM
I have a friend who is an agent in INS. She says they are clogged up as it is. Pass “reform” with limited 24 hr background checks, etc, it’s like an open-door policy for people who want to do a lot of harm to us.
I’ve never understood the hawkishness of Mac on one side of the war, and the dovishness on the other.
Spirit of 1776 on May 24, 2008 at 7:41 PM
JetBoy on May 24, 2008 at 7:35 PM
That’s because they’re “polutiticians”, and they just want to butter their bread. No…. you have no idea what you are signing on to…..
I think i’ll run along side “LegendHasit’ you dude” think like I do!
jerrytbg on May 24, 2008 at 7:46 PM
JetBoy on May 24, 2008 at 7:35 PM
Plus…. I have a score of two generations behind me that I’m trying to make a better world for…and the prospects don’t look good.
jerrytbg on May 24, 2008 at 7:58 PM
They still don’t get it. Being a left winger is not what will get you elected.
Log on May 24, 2008 at 8:06 PM
I do too. The gop isn’t the only party falling completely apart.
Game 1 of the Stanley Cup Playoffs calls.
techno_barbarian on May 24, 2008 at 8:17 PM
Landslide, aye.
Hening on May 24, 2008 at 8:18 PM
Be optimistic. Because the alternative is depressing. And who likes being depressed?
Oh yeah, I don’t doubt that INS is clogged up. And yes, major reforms are in order. McCain will be on it. But it’s really Congress’ job. Thing is, so far…no one’s doing much about it. So in essence, amnesty’s been around for decades. Can’t turn a blind eye to a problem for that long, and expect any quick fix.
JetBoy on May 24, 2008 at 8:23 PM
Spirit of 1776 on May 24, 2008 at 7:41 PM
“Immigration reform legislation” is not going to alleviate any problem by changing rules in order to relieve our government employees from their job description duties. What Fred Thompson promoted so many years ago as Senator, on the other hand, would help: under our current laws, facilitate the processing of applications via better equipment run by better trained employees.
Last week there was outrage from those who specialize in fighting hackers and forgers because of the easy to counterfeit NEW passport design just chosen by our government. The Democrats and RINOs are pushing as hard as possible in all directions to further mess up the works.
maverick muse on May 24, 2008 at 8:37 PM
Yeah. I have no argument with you. Just saying the creation of legalizing an open-door policy is worse then the train-wreck we have now. I.e. was just trying to answer your point as best I could.
The beauty of McCain in the Senate as a candidate, is that he has the power to consolidate the conservatives, if he would, for example, by introduced legislation in the Senate according to some of their concerns. It wouldn’t even need to passed in the window of time before the election to get conservatives to believe in him; just putting his name on it would go a long way.
Spirit of 1776 on May 24, 2008 at 8:37 PM
Yes.
Except for that part about better trained employees. I imply no insult to our current workforce. I think our border patrol (and I know my friend) are all smart and competent – just overworked. Need to put them in a situation to succeed. I wish McCain approached this with the clarity of a military operation. Give the necessary equipment to the necessary guys and let them do their job.
Spirit of 1776 on May 24, 2008 at 8:41 PM
Be optimistic. Because the alternative is depressing. And who likes being depressed?
JetBoy on May 24, 2008 at 8:23 PM
I have a passion for sailing and I sail at least twice a week. It’s a wonderful way of life.
I’m not depressed…. I’m scared…. as you should be….
but you and others will go down the yellow brick road and…
ahhh…. never mind….
jerrytbg on May 24, 2008 at 8:43 PM
In the practical art of war, you must be prepared to fight at any time in the future. In the impractical art of war, you should have been prepared quite some time ago, and it’s probably already too late. You’re screwed.
- Sun Tzu’s nephew
MB4 on May 24, 2008 at 8:47 PM
If your enemy wins the war, you are defeated.
- Sun Tzu’s nephew
MB4 on May 24, 2008 at 8:49 PM
I’m so sick and tired of so-called Conservatives saying they’re staying home in November…which is as pathetic as liberaltarians fantasizing that Al Gore should’ve won in 2000 so the country would’ve veered so far left and was abhorred by the rampant socialism he would’ve unleashed…the country of course would veer back to the…center? Or whatever place libertarians inhabit these days.
If that’s what people want, some sick notion of socialism under Barack or Hillary (which you assume the blame would stick to them of course…tell that to the MSM)…but hey, go run to Galt’s Gulch or stick your heads in the sand. You’re as bad as the 9/11 Truthers. You don’t want to fight the fight, you just want to bitch about it.
If you’re not going to vote at all…you’ll get want apparently and those of us who are should hold you people responsible if the donkeys gain a hold on this country.
Do you think they’re going to give it up after one or two elections? Good grief…talk about short-sighted.
Haunchie on May 24, 2008 at 8:51 PM
101
jerrytbg on May 24, 2008 at 8:55 PM
I wanted to quote Patton but couldn’t find the quote.
jerrytbg on May 24, 2008 at 8:58 PM
JetBoy;
Stir fry that sucker for me! :)
Nothing would make me happier then to chow down on that Crow a’la HotAir!
(P.S. the feathers are the worst part)
Limerick on May 24, 2008 at 9:02 PM
Unfortunately, McCain appears set to lose Colorado, Iowa and New Mexico from Bushes’ states in 2004. That puts him at 265 — not enough. Even if he picks up NH that is only 269 and a tie goes to Congress which would pick Obama. He needs to not only hold Ohio (a big if) but pick off Wisconsin or Michigan — Possible but not probable. Are there any more gaffes Obama can pull or skeletons in his closet? It seems we need a few more.
KW64 on May 24, 2008 at 9:06 PM
It will be an early night….one way or the other
PA, VA, OH will tell the tale. MI is a lost cause and WI is highly doubtful.
Limerick on May 24, 2008 at 9:11 PM
You can see my intel on puffery was was spot on as more chirpers come in under the wire.
patrick neid on May 24, 2008 at 9:14 PM
ha, I’m cookin’ to order. Stir fry? You got it!
Honestly, I’m not scared at all of a McCain presidency. I am of an Obama one tho. I can’t figure out how so many conservatives who’ve worked with McCain in the Senate can endorse him, yet so many conservatives around HotAir are still against him.
No worries, no argument. Point answered. Again, seems like we’re seeing two different McCain’s.
JetBoy on May 24, 2008 at 9:17 PM
Update 2:
GOP strategists fantasize about McCain landslide defeat.
Indy Conservative on May 24, 2008 at 9:25 PM
Maybe we are.
If it’s any consolation, I’d wager 85-90% of conservatives that are against him now, will vote for him in November.
Some of vocal opposition just needs to be said, ie it’s like a purging process. Of course, McCain impedes that process sometime by his finger-eye method and the “get on the bandwagon, you dumbf*ck” McCainiacs I’m sure hits the brakes too, heh. :)
Spirit of 1776 on May 24, 2008 at 9:27 PM
Snake307: Good luck with that Ron Paul vote.
The Supreme Court is important. Freedom and protection of your rights will depend on constructionist judges on the SC and in federal courts. Voting third-party or not voting will assure an Obama win by default, and then we will have a soft-on-sharia, politically correct court system. Buh-bye liberty and the American way.
Fighting to retain and promote conservative contenders in Congress will serve as a curb to any aberrations by McCain. This type of legislator can outmaverick the Maverick.
onlineanalyst on May 24, 2008 at 9:28 PM
Because:
A: There are few real conservatives in the Senate anymore.
B: The Senate is the most elitist bunch of Fraternity Boys in the history of the world. They ALWAYS circle the wagons to protect their own, to increase their power against and isolate themselves from the ‘unwashed commoners’ who elect them and pay their salaries and expense accounts.
Even the guys that go in being smart, Conservative, decent people come are soon perverted into political hacks.
LegendHasIt on May 24, 2008 at 9:34 PM
I hope it’s that high. But I do believe you’re right that many against McCain now will vote for him. We haven’t even barely begun to see the Left attack him, still in dribs and drabs via the NY Times and some Obama comments. And of course, the Lefty blogs are trying too.
And when the attacks begin in earnest, it’ll prod many to come to McCain’s defense and vote for him. And again, I truly believe McCain…by the time the general election rolls around and after the conventions, will win by a large margin. How large, it’s too early to tell.
Dang…it’s still a long way ’til November. And the Dem’s don’t have an official presumptive nominee (although it’s probably Obama) yet.
JetBoy on May 24, 2008 at 9:36 PM
Is your binary 5 meant to represent a high-5?
FloatingRock on May 24, 2008 at 9:41 PM
OK, quick question if I may. You, or anyone can answer please.
What is a “real conservative”?
JetBoy on May 24, 2008 at 9:42 PM
I absolutely do believe it. The question is, in my mind though, is how much it will matter if they aren’t motivated to execute the normal GOP ground-game.
In one sentence: Someone who values the founding principles and wants to ensure they continue to be passed on to the next generation. That’s my view.
Spirit of 1776 on May 24, 2008 at 9:46 PM
FloatingRock on May 24, 2008 at 9:41 PM
ahhhh…..yes?
jerrytbg on May 24, 2008 at 9:54 PM
And on the rebound?
:)
FloatingRock on May 24, 2008 at 9:55 PM
That is like asking a man what kind of beer he prefers, however here on HA the critter is like the Cheshire Cat.
Limerick on May 24, 2008 at 9:56 PM
Well said. As good as any brief description I could come up with if I spent all day trying.
Pop Quiz everyone:
Of the three currently viable candidates for President from the U.S. Senate, ONLY one has authored and successfully passed into law a bill which is clearly and directly an unconstitutional assault on the founding principles.
Which one is it?
LegendHasIt on May 24, 2008 at 9:58 PM
federalist and a constitutionalist.
Need more?
jerrytbg on May 24, 2008 at 10:00 PM
Now that sounds accurate to me. Lately, anyways. I seem to get the feeling that those who call themselves the “real conservatives” in opposition to McCain, use logic closer to that found in the liberal playbook. If that makes sense.
But then, how exactly does…say…McCain’s view differ from that of our founding fathers? Principles may not change, but time does.
JetBoy on May 24, 2008 at 10:01 PM
CFR and line-item veto both unconstitutional. I don’t object to line-item veto if ratified as amendment, btw. But to accept as is currently proposed is to alter the checks and balances in a way unintended.
And my problems with amnesty have to do with rule of law issues. Which rule of law, as Lincoln expounded on, is critical for the perpetuation of our political institutions. Any changes by the institutions need to be done by the American voter. If I took 20 million socialists (just for ex) and dropped them in the voter poll, it would create alterations that would not have been approved by the voting base before it was artificially expanded.
Spirit of 1776 on May 24, 2008 at 10:07 PM
Quick question…. Jet boy provocateur or McCain plant, or both or dare I say ……T____?
jerrytbg on May 24, 2008 at 10:08 PM
See the last part of my 9:58 for one.
For two: Do you think that the Founding Fathers would think that trying to sneak the McCain-Kennedy amnesty bill through in the dead of night to be a good conservative thing?
For three: Do you think that the Founding Fathers believed that 14% of the U.S. Senate should be able to negotiate deals on who, when and how the President’s Judicial nominees could be approved or denied?
For four: Do you think that the founding fathers thought it would be a good idea for a President being able to decide to cripple the nation’s economy based on an erroneous cultish belief?
I could probably come up with a bunch more examples if I wanted to strain my memory, but if that isn’t enough for you, you will never get it no matter how many realities you are presented.
LegendHasIt on May 24, 2008 at 10:13 PM
I am not convinced a McCain victory is good for the GOP.Even a McCain win cannot prevent the imminent Dem wins in house and Senate. Dems will have a large majority . McCain will sign leftist bills and a GOP President will get blamed/
Dennis D on May 24, 2008 at 10:14 PM
I watched this same game unfold in 2006. Threats to stay home carried through with consequences. And look what it’s gotten us. The lowest rated most inept and power hungry congress in history.
And now, those same people who stayed home and let the dems win that razor-thin victory that the dems called a mandate to take the country further left are gonna stay home again and hand the 3rd and most powerful branch of government over to an openly marxist empty suit.
What makes you think our enemies wouldn’t rush to take full advantage of a situation like that? America, at that point, would be literally defenseless. There would never be a better or more effective time to strike.
The dems have been waving their big spread willing behinds at the world for years now, begging for it. Comrade Obambi can’t wait to appologize. He will be devoured by the thugs and dictators he legitimizes. Much worse than Khrushchev devoured JFK. And Comrade Obambi won’t fight back like JFK did.
I’m no McCainiac, but I cannot understand how we win by losing. By allowing this to happen. Hey, I fully admit it, McC sucks majorly. Comrades Obambi and Clintoon suck much much more.
techno_barbarian on May 24, 2008 at 10:20 PM
Exactly.
I could swallow my long personal distrust for the man and ignore the things that he has done in the last few years politically and vote for him as the slightly least of the two or three evils, if it wasn’t for that one thing.
LegendHasIt on May 24, 2008 at 10:23 PM
A troll? Hardly. I’ve been commenting here regularly for 2 years. And have been defending McCain since the day after Fred Thompson dropped out.
Provocateur? Nope. Have I been mean or angry or otherwise rude?
McCain plant? Oh, brother. ha!
JetBoy on May 24, 2008 at 10:24 PM
Can’t say that I can see the McYes/McNo folks ever coming together. Both sides have their talking points but neither side appears to be moveable. At the same time I can’t think of one single candidate, throughout this entire election cycle, that could have pulled everyone together. Rudy, Mitt, Fred, Tancredo, Hunter, Huckabee, it wouldn’t matter. Strike out McCain’s name and substitute one of the others and these HA threads would look exactly the same…..a bunch of name calling Cheshire Cats fighting over the true conservative label.
Limerick on May 24, 2008 at 10:26 PM
Also, one of the principle responsibilities of the federal government is to provide for the common defense, which hasn’t been happening.
FloatingRock on May 24, 2008 at 10:26 PM
Cont:
A lot of people are saying that President Bush has ‘ruined the Republican brand’: Just wait until they see what President McCain would do to it. It wouldn’t be long until we will all be looking back and wishing that Bush could have had a third term.
LegendHasIt on May 24, 2008 at 10:27 PM
Forgot to add that at least we’ll be able to blame the dems. Cold friggin’ comfort, if you ask me.
The majority of us here on HA agree on probably 85%-90% on the fundamentals. That part is the most frustrating. Being at odds with someone who’s in the foxhole with you. Not good.
techno_barbarian on May 24, 2008 at 10:28 PM
Yup. Unfortunately.
techno_barbarian on May 24, 2008 at 10:29 PM
Hard to understand too. Barring up the front door, leaving the back unlocked. Go figure.
Spirit of 1776 on May 24, 2008 at 10:30 PM
In the same respect, anyone that drives as much as one mile over the speed limit is breaking the law. Do we arrest, or even tempt to, every one of them?
JetBoy on May 24, 2008 at 10:31 PM
Roberts and Alito were confirmed, without a Dem filibuster. I still believe McCain’s involvement in the G of 14 worked out quite well.
And yes, as for McCain/Kennedy, it was horrible. No one’s perfect. But McCain’s learned his lesson.
JetBoy on May 24, 2008 at 10:34 PM
I believe you are kind of wrong about that…. Oh, if you could erase the memory of the last four months, you would probably be right. But (with the possible exception of Huckabee), if a miracle should happen and McCain suddenly be replaced with even social Lib Guliani, MOST of us MDS sufferers would be so relieved that we would be jumping for joy. Because we know despite our reservations over his gun grabbing, abortion loving, sanctuary city stuff, he is at least smart enough to not want to destroy the economy as an acolyte of GoreBull Warming.
LegendHasIt on May 24, 2008 at 10:38 PM
I know some people here say that but this is a blog and is not particularly representative of average Republican voters. I think the real issue is that politicians have to earn votes; they’re not entitled to them. Typically this is accomplished by appealing to the targeted voting base to convince them to vote for you and then, once they’ve given you the opportunity, representing them faithfully. Politicians who fail to do that often are not invited back, and it’s not the voters fault, it’s the politician.
Rewarding failure time and again isn’t conducive to a viable representative democracy. That’s like giving your dog a treat and a hug every time he soils your new carpet and dogs are far more respectable people than your average politician.
FloatingRock on May 24, 2008 at 10:38 PM
I’m not hearing a denial….
(j/k)
FloatingRock on May 24, 2008 at 10:42 PM
No, but these aren’t the same. The foundation of our legal system is the defense of the individual and an individual’s property. And the system is designed for recourse for the accused. Everything is stacked for that: innocent till proven guilty, right to trial by peers, etc. Our goal is not to prosecute every law violation, but to protect the citizenry from over-reaching authority. (This is shown by the Declaration of Independence – it is a written justification for the establishment of a new government, and it’s rooted in the inability for redress of grievances concerning individual rights and property).
This coexists and is not contradictory to the foundation of our political system. Which is to represent the people with a republic and ordered with checks and balances. It’s foundation is rule of law. Everything the government does is by implied consent of the people. Ie if the state executes a prisoner, it’s the collective will of the people. When you attempt to alter the constituency of the people without the will of the people, that’s an imbalance to the rule of law and the perpetation of our political systems.
Most people feel this viscerally, I think. I mean, I don’t know what the numbers are, but I would guess that a majority of Americans would be happy to have some immigration reform as long as it was unquestioned enforcement first, and back of the line.
Spirit of 1776 on May 24, 2008 at 10:45 PM
Honestly, Legend, I don’t really consider McC a Republican at all. He’s closer to a Centrist Democrat. RINO is a very accurate lable for McC.
Too bad he was picked for us to be our nominee. I’m not happy about it either, but we’ve got what we’ve got. And to be honest, I don’t know how much worse the Republican brand can be.
We had majorities in both houses and the Presidency and we STILL screwed it up. It’s going to take years to rebuild the brand, no matter what McC does.
Are you happy with what the RNC has done lately, and for a long long time? Judging from your words here, I’d say definitely not. Right there with you.
To me, this election is about just hanging on and buying a little more time for events to continue to turn in our favor. I think support for the global warming hoax is going to crumble in the near future, especially as gas prices continue to rise. People have to get to work. There will be an outcry. The trends do not indicate support for even more onerous taxes and ridiculous carbon credit penalties. I think McC will eventually be able to see the writing on the wall with that one.
Immigration? Right there with you again. I’m one of the ones who used NumbersUSA to send faxes and make phone calls to get the latest amnesty provisions they just tried to sneak through in the troop funding bill removed. I care about this issue a great deal.
I believe that continuing those efforts will limit even McC from actually implementing anything untoward. Involvement works. We have power in numbers. A McC presidency need not be the disaster you envision for us all.
I say treat him like what he is; a hostile dem. Just from a balance of power standpoint, it is literally dangerous to hand all three branches of the government to the idiot dems.
I see and understand your points, but I can not willingly sacrifice my country to that trifecta.
Respectfully,
techno_barbarian on May 24, 2008 at 10:45 PM
You guys KEEP saying that, despite all the evidence to the contrary. Every few days McCain proves that he still wants it…. he can’t even lie about it convincingly and continuously.
LegendHasIt on May 24, 2008 at 10:46 PM
Comparing a foreign invasion with driving a mile over the speed limit is absurd. You’re making a relativistic argument, i.e., how can we punish people for murder when J-walkers get away scott free?
FloatingRock on May 24, 2008 at 10:48 PM
Yeah, but YOU are a thoughtful person. Try to put yourself in the position of the average ignorant person:
McCain has an (R) next to his name. Just like every President in history, everything bad happens during his term is blamed on him AND the whole party, regardless of what Congress does to help or hinder. And everything good is credited to him, regardless of if he was a help or a hindrance or just a bystander to it.
LegendHasIt on May 24, 2008 at 10:57 PM
Foreign invasion?
OK…I do agree that our borders need to be secure. THAT’S top priority in the immigration issue. And no…it’s not an absurd analogy. You and others say “the law is the law”, without regards to any other circumstances. So it’s very similar to driving even one mile over the limit. The law is the law, regardless of circumstances.
So if your argument is simply law enforcement, than it has to be across the board. Driving deaths are far more prevelant than murders committed by illegals.
JetBoy on May 24, 2008 at 10:59 PM
You must lose consciousness when McCain lies and says the lesson he learned is “comprehensive immigration reform“.
But you continue to use the Clinton strategy and repeat the big lie as if we’re stupid enough to believe it.
Valiant on May 24, 2008 at 11:00 PM
If you have instances where McCain flat-out lied about something, I’d love to see it.
McCain reminds me of Giuliani a bit. He goes too far sometimes, but learns from his mistakes. When Rudy was mayor on NYC, he did a great job on the whole. But he pushed certain things too far, and backed off from public pressure.
McCain’s the same way.
JetBoy on May 24, 2008 at 11:02 PM
Now that I can agree with. When I talk to Democrats I tell them that McCain is the best Democrat in the race.
But I’m still not voting for him, and I supported him in ’99 and ’00. During a primary debate between McCain and Bush, about a year before 9/11, I sent an email to Ted Koppel with a debate question suggestion asking how both candidates would deal with the threat posed by Bin Laden.
Unfortunately the debate sucked and not a single question about foreign policy was asked.
FloatingRock on May 24, 2008 at 11:02 PM
See the post right before yours.
Valiant on May 24, 2008 at 11:02 PM
Well said. That’s why I think we can control McC and the suckling pigs at the public trough. The majority of Americans, even dems, want enforcement first. In cities where it’s being tried, it works. We are not powerless.
techno_barbarian on May 24, 2008 at 11:03 PM
The only way argument enters the realm of relevancy is if you were considering deaths BY (not OF) drivers who committed crimes. Then the government’s execution of responsibility might be considered. Even then, neglect in one area doesn’t excuse another. If the government doesn’t do a good job tracking down counterfeiters, and thus devaluing the currency I hold, does it absolve them of their responsibility regard the border? Of course not.
Spirit of 1776 on May 24, 2008 at 11:05 PM
I get error message with that link. ?
JetBoy on May 24, 2008 at 11:07 PM
Yea, agree. The local and state governments are attacking the issue, as they need to for budget reasons! but we just heard McCain say how that was ‘confusing’ the issue.
But again, I agree. The people are going to be active in this debate no matter who the next executive is.
Spirit of 1776 on May 24, 2008 at 11:08 PM
Actually, JetBoy, I honestly don’t think he has. I don’t trust him very much at all. I just think we would be more likely to control him than either of the idiot dems.
techno_barbarian on May 24, 2008 at 11:08 PM
Sorry here is McCain saying the lesson he learned last summer is we must have “comprehensive immigration reform”. This directly contradicts his promise to “enforce the borders first”.
Valiant on May 24, 2008 at 11:10 PM
Let me steal and somewhat alter a quote from Owen Wilson in Shanghai Knights:
“What in our entire history together makes you think that we are capable of that?”
LegendHasIt on May 24, 2008 at 11:12 PM
I agree with you on all of that. My point is that we are already so close to the bottom anyway, that no matter what McC does (and if we’re successful by being vigilant and actively opposing his more liberal tendencies), we’re going to be rebuilding for a long time.
Add to that, that if McC actually does win, it will still be a completely stunning defeat for the far leftist dems. There is quite a bit positive here.
Massive sh*t sandwich? Absolutely. I want to eat as little of it as I possibly can. Like you, I am in this fight for the long term. Both parties have fundamental flaws that will take probably a generation to fix, if even then.
Comrade Obambi is going to hand this country to our enemies. That, for me, trumps all.
techno_barbarian on May 24, 2008 at 11:14 PM
Also John Hawkins called him a liar over the immigration issue.
There is no way conservatives will ever get anything out of the treasonous Maverick.
Valiant on May 24, 2008 at 11:16 PM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KBzJvoS5iJE
LegendHasIt on May 24, 2008 at 11:16 PM
I guess what I’m trying to say is that no matter who wins, dem-lite or dem-hardcore-marxist, the gop is going to take the blame. There’s no way around it. The dems will take no responsibility whatsoever and blame every negative thing that happens during their ruinous run, from freak storms to the inevitable attack we’ll suffer, on the gop.
techno_barbarian on May 24, 2008 at 11:18 PM
That was no flip. Comp. Immigration Reform, or paths to citizenship (something has to give) has nothing to do with sealing the border. I haven’t seen McCain change his position on the border.
What McCain has said is that without a secure border, you can’t start deporting people. And that makes perfect sense to me. And regardless, anything the government does re: illegals has far-reaching economic and social effects. Don’t count those out.
Even Reagan knew that.
Either way you feel about McCain, you got that right…either Dem in the White House would be a disaster for this country.
JetBoy on May 24, 2008 at 11:19 PM
That may be the root of where our opinions on the matter diverge. I don’t believe that McCain can be controlled, and certainly not by conservatives. In the spirit of compromise I believe that liberals will have far more influence over president McCain than conservatives, and in fact conservatives have never had much influence on McCain at all. If he can radically change that perception in the coming few months he might be able to convince a significant portion of the Republican base to support him, (above the lesser of two evils motivation), but he’d have to make a serious effort and I don’t think he has any intention of doing so.
FloatingRock on May 24, 2008 at 11:20 PM
Yer losin’ me, JB. The very real illegal invasion that’s going on is much more serious than speeding tickets. That’s not the way to argue this issue. Moral equivalence is for libs. That way lies maddness.
techno_barbarian on May 24, 2008 at 11:20 PM
That is the problem. He said his lesson learned was to “enforce the border first”. After securing the nomination, he is now back to his original position of “comprehensive immigration reform”. He is a liar- see the Hawkins piece above. Goodnight all.
Valiant on May 24, 2008 at 11:24 PM
And that is exactly how I’m treating this election. There are no Republicans in the race. I am voting for the least damaging dem.
techno_barbarian on May 24, 2008 at 11:25 PM
It’s ‘confusing’ the issue because McC really does not see that the majority of Americans, on both sides, are for enforcement.
The immigration issue and the global warming thing are probably the two biggest problems I have with McC.
Thankfully, the volume of our collective voices has real power to change behavior. I don’t care what he believes, if we can continue to thwart his bad ideas, we win.
techno_barbarian on May 24, 2008 at 11:29 PM
Ahh, I gotta run. I’ll check back in the a.m. Good discussion, but again, we’re seeing different McCains as usual.
Happy Memorial Day to you all! Remember, we’re all on the same side.
JetBoy on May 24, 2008 at 11:30 PM
I thought all you TC’s are out of the Republican party, didnt the party “leave you”?
Squid Shark on May 24, 2008 at 11:33 PM
Heh. Because we’ve repeatedly done it.
Our sustained resistance both last year and just last week has kept amnesty from happening so far.
They’re never going to stop trying to pass it. The dems see a permanent majority. I have no idea what McC sees. I still think he’d much rather be a democrat, and the amnesty thing would play in his favor then (until it bankrupts the country, that is).
We must never tire of rising to the occasion and pushing them back. Pushing back and raising your voice to them really does work.
Anybody who doesn’t know about NumbersUSA is heartily encouraged to check them out and sign up. It’s a great program and extremely effective and useful. Very much worth supporting.
techno_barbarian on May 24, 2008 at 11:38 PM
Hey thanks for the chat.
Doesn’t see or doesn’t care. Hard for me to believe he doesn’t see when he promises he “heard the message”. As the other point, though, again: agreed.
Spirit of 1776 on May 24, 2008 at 11:39 PM
While I share your concern, part of my strategy is that I don’t believe that even a Democrat congress is going to let him, when they WOULD go along with Maverick McCain on the essentially the same stuff.
Here is just ONE reason why I believe that:
Obama is really a Washington outsider. (not that that is inherently a bad thing.) BUT,.. and it is a BIG BUT, even though he is a Senate Frat Boy…. he isn’t out of his Pledge status yet.
He has done no favors for other Senators, much less Representatives. They don’t owe him one single thing. Most of them don’t even particularly like him. They all understand that the day he was sworn into the Senate he started running for President. He abdicated his responsibilities; If he voted at all, he only voted for things that were to his personal benefit. And He didn’t ‘wait for his turn’.
Even with an overwhelmingly Democrat congress, I see gridlock with Obama’s agenda.
Even those that agree with him philosophically will be more beholden to their corporate sponsors and the folks back home than they are to him.
And you will note that most of the democrats getting elected recently from the non-loony parts of the country tend to be nearly as, or in some instances MORE conservative than their Republican opponents.
Nancy Pelosi hasn’t been able to actually achieve any of her hard left agenda despite having a majority. It will be even harder for President Obama to get anything done.
At least that is what I believe. History will prove whether I’m wrong or right. A gamble, most assuredly, and I’ll GLADLY eat some of that crow the McCainiacs will be serving if it turns out I’m wrong…. But they had better be willing to hear a million “I told you sos” if I am right.
LegendHasIt on May 24, 2008 at 11:39 PM
Sounds like a fantasy world of rationalization and fallacy. Do you think that a dem congress would give up on what it really wnated ofr all of these years because Obama is an outsider?
All of this ignoring the fact that McCain’s agenda is not even close to Obamas.
Squid Shark on May 24, 2008 at 11:48 PM
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