Choices Update: A video reminder of the choice
posted at 9:05 am on May 23, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
Share on Facebook | regular view
John Hawkins has delivered a reaction to John McCain’s apparent backtracking on border security yesterday that will undoubtedly reverberate around the blogosphere this weekend. Hawkins called McCain a “liar” and says that he will not vote for McCain in the fall. Both seem like overreactions to me, and John ignores some unpleasant reality.
First, I don’t read this statement as a huge surprise:
“Senator Kennedy and I tried very hard to get immigration reform, a comprehensive plan, through the Congress of the United States,” he said. “It is a federal responsibility and because of our failure as a federal obligation, we’re seeing all these various conflicts and problems throughout our nation as different towns, cities, counties, whatever they are, implement different policies and different programs which makes things even worse and even more confusing.”
He added: “I believe we have to secure our borders, and I think most Americans agree with that, because it’s a matter of national security. But we must enact comprehensive immigration reform. We must make it a top agenda item if we don’t do it before, and we probably won’t, a little straight talk, as of January 2009.”
McCain never pledged to give up comprehensive immigration reform. He pledged to secure the borders first, but even in the extensive quotes that John has in his post, he never promised to stop seeking a comprehensive solution for illegal immigration afterwards. Even in this sequence, he talks about border security first. I don’t see this as “breaking his security pledge”, as John puts it.
John and I have debated this before, and I know him to be an honest, impassioned, and effective advocate of strict enforcement policies, and opposed to any kind of normalization. If he chooses not to vote for McCain, he will make that choice with integrity and commitment. But not voting is a choice with consequences in a two-party system, and those consequences will impact a lot more than border security.
After November 5th, either Barack Obama or John McCain will be President. We can be politically correct and claim that Bob Barr or Ralph Nader could somehow overcome the combined weight of the Republican and Democratic parties, but realistically they can at best act as spoilers. Uncast potential votes for either candidate makes it more likely their opponent will win; conservatives who sit on their hands make it more likely that Obama will win the White House.
Does anyone believe that Barack Obama would be more committed to border security than John McCain? Not if they’ve paid attention. Obama is at best the same as McCain on immigration, and more likely to acquiesce to Democrats like Dick Durbin on another full-blown amnesty. Even if we consider that a wash, where else does Obama look better than McCain to conservatives?
- Spending? No. Obama wants to eliminate the Bush tax cuts and increase federal spending by another $280 billion a year, with an eye towards nationalizing health care.
- The war on terror and national security? Please! Obama wants to dismantle our nuclear deterrent, end work on missile defense, and do a full-scale retreat from Iraq just as the country has begun standing on its own for security.
- Foreign policy? Only if conservatives have suddenly discovered a desire for direct meetings with sponsors of international terrorism like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the Castro brothers, Bashar Assad, and Hugo Chavez. Even Obama’s own allies think this a bad idea.
- Abortion? Obama voted to support partial-birth abortion.
- Judges? Obama voted against the confirmation of John Roberts, putting him in the minority of Democrats.
The consequences of an Obama presidency go far beyond immigration. That is what voters need to keep in mind, especially given the likely Democratic victory in both chambers of Congress this fall. Immigration and border security are important issues, but they’re not the only ones, and stark differences exist between Barack Obama and John McCain. That’s what our vote should consider — all of the consequences of the election.
Jazz Shaw has more thoughts at TMV.
Update: A reminder of what an Obama presidency would bring, from Macranger and Rick Moran:
You must be logged in to post a comment.
Blowback
Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.
Trackbacks/Pings
Trackback URL
Comments
Comment pages: 1 2 3 Next »
We are farked either way.
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on May 23, 2008 at 9:08 AM
Everyone should know by now that this election is about the least of all evils… and in a few months it will be about the lessor of the two.
singlemalt_18 on May 23, 2008 at 9:10 AM
The bugger is that even if you wind up with the lessor of two evils, you’re still stuck with evil.
Harpazo on May 23, 2008 at 9:14 AM
There are a lot of things that could be better but we live in an imperfect world. The thought of a Marxist régime in the White House sickens me and therefore, for me, there is but one choice . . . McCain.
rplat on May 23, 2008 at 9:14 AM
McCain’s best asset for the fall is probably the fact that the big media outlets can’t fathom attacking him from the right in their stories, such as with immigration reform, and instead will continue to hammer him from the left, over the fact that he doesn’t support their pet issues like pulling out of Iraq, talking to Iran or raising taxes, the way Obama does.
So every time McCain sticks his foot in his mouth with conservatives between now and November, the media will inadvertently be there to help pull it out, by both failing to follow up on the issue and by slanting their coverage so much towards Barak on the issues where conservatives and McCain do agree, they turn him into a sympathetic figure.
jon1979 on May 23, 2008 at 9:14 AM
I was going to say by the end of the next president’s term this country is going to look like France. Then I realized after four years with either of these clown candidates in office we’ll be thankful if we look that good.
Hunker down. Stock up on ammo. Every man for himself.
fogw on May 23, 2008 at 9:16 AM
Capt,
As you will find here, reason plays no part with the playpen occupants. They are taking their ball and going home.
The jumping up and down will start in a few minutes.
patrick neid on May 23, 2008 at 9:16 AM
Why make excuses for him? Howsabout let’s just enforce the laws already on the books. That would constitute reform in and of itself.
Akzed on May 23, 2008 at 9:18 AM
Hawkins writes a good piece. Hardly fair to say he ignores some realities, when the scope of that is piece is set by hit.
That is pretty much my own thinking. McCain is the sort of person who believes that he is right, and that his own opinion is a mandate. It might be an asset in dealing with Iraq (I doubt that actually), but it’s definitely a liability on the domestic side. Add unconstitutional legislation to the immigration reform (hey, let’s do 24 background checks! don’t worry about terrorism, it’s so 2001) and you have a disaster waiting.
Obama seems worse then McCain by almost every measure, but at least Hawkins is going into the election in a way that if Mac is elected, he won’t have to try to spin all of the bad stuff as conservative, etc.
Spirit of 1776 on May 23, 2008 at 9:20 AM
It is hard to comprehend what is happening in the leadership of this country. On one hand we have a charismatic first term senator with multple questionable ties in most of his associations and the experience of a piss ant. On the other hand we have a “maverick” who can’t make up his mind what he believes and has lobbyists at every turn. The saddest part is that they are probably both owned by the same guy whose sole purpose is to humble our nation.
volsense on May 23, 2008 at 9:20 AM
none of the above?
(vote Bob Barr as protest)
DaveC on May 23, 2008 at 9:20 AM
hit = him; sorry.
Spirit of 1776 on May 23, 2008 at 9:20 AM
Unless John takes a job in a McCain White House, he doesn’t have to spin anything at all.
Ed Morrissey on May 23, 2008 at 9:26 AM
Which is exactly the same as voting for obama
Squid Shark on May 23, 2008 at 9:26 AM
Ed,
MDS runs far too deep in some people. They would gladly see this nation run into the ground rather than see a man they they fear (based on the extreme heperbole of his intentions) in the white house.
Squid Shark on May 23, 2008 at 9:29 AM
.
Bob Barr is only in the race to help elect Obama. Nader is only in the race to help elect McCain. Think about it in those terms.
Think_b4_speaking on May 23, 2008 at 9:30 AM
When I read this yesterday it came as no surprise because I never bought McCains lies in the first place.You mean secure the borders first as in the now defunct “virtual fence”?This was one of the cornor stones of last years grand bargain which is basically a piece of crap that doesn’t work.McCains idea of securing the borders is probably a whole lot different than most folks here.
The RNC keeps calling for money and we tell them get it from the illegal aliens.As for us we’re going out this Fall and support our congressman Brad Ellsworth a conservative democrat pro-life,pro-gun,and anti-illegal immigration.He has a A- rating from NumbersUsa while McCain has a D or F can’t remember which.If Bush and McCain are so worried about security and terrorist attacks here they would have worked to secure our borders.
PTN 39 on May 23, 2008 at 9:30 AM
Part of the problem is that “comprehensive immigration reform” is code word for “amnesty” because that’s the only part of immigration reform McCain and his ilk ever talk about. I would venture to guess that other aspects of immigration — like the need for more technologically skilled workers — isn’t as high on McCain’s priority list. At least, you wouldn’t know that from listening to him.
And the case for why the immigration reform needs to be so “comprehensive” — lumping an amnesty for impoverished Mexicans and Central Americans in with the need for skilled high-tech workers — still has not been made. I don’t that is lost on that big base of Reagan Democrats everyone seems to be vying for, either. Or the bitter clingers.
I have said it before — McCain has alot of work to do. It is his job to convince people to vote for him, nobody else’s.
BigD on May 23, 2008 at 9:31 AM
I’m sick of the lesser of two evils approach to politics. As long as this scheme is in play, the people lose.
If the so called conservative party is not responsive to it’s more conservative constituency, then the party needs to punished to be brought back in line with it’s members.
This punishment should come in the form of no financial assistance and of course, withholding votes. Like an unruly child, if bad behavior is tolerated, which it has been for years, the bad behavior is condoned by default and it will continue unabated.
Actually, this is the perfect time to sacrifice the Presidency in order to take our party back. With the impending recession spiraling towards a major depression, the next President will probably be the new Hoover.
So if Obama or Hillary wins, so be it so long as the GOP is purged of RINO’s and liberals in Republican clothing. I can see it now, Obamavilles sprouting up around the country as he thrusts the recession into depression through his socialistic initiatives.
The GOP must not be allowed to continue down it’s present destructive path. Tough love is in order now more than ever.
voiceofreason on May 23, 2008 at 9:32 AM
You want to fight illegal immigration? You also can’t vote for McCain? Then vote for Nader or leave the slot blank. We have stopped amnesty before, we can do it again from the grassroots – but if Obama gets in with dems still controlling both houses, we have no say in the matter.
Think_b4_speaking on May 23, 2008 at 9:32 AM
I’m sick of the lesser of two evils argument for John McCain.
The man isn’t even trying to reach out to us. Never has, and likely never will.
By making him our nominee we’ve already convinced the GOP to change course and adopt the “Mavrick” approach to conservatives. How much worse will they be if he actually becomes our president? Won’t that just further prove that only moderates should be in politics?
So we’ll have won the White House for four years (maybe more), but we’ll lose the GOP indefinitely as they shift further and further away from us.
I told my liberal friends in 2004 that it was a losing strategy to simply vote against Bush, and I was right. People aren’t compelled to the voting booth to vote against someone. They go to vote because they want someone.
I’m not saying my mind is made up about McCain, but this argument won’t convince me he should be president.
Esthier on May 23, 2008 at 9:32 AM
ChoicesLack of Choices. :-(The problem with you analysis is the same thing that comes from the the shut up and vote McCain crowd. You give reasons why I shouldn’t vote for Obama but not one sane reason why I should put aside my very real concerns and vote FOR McCain. Choosing the lesser of two evils is still putting an evil man in the White House.
highhopes on May 23, 2008 at 9:34 AM
Eh. Sen. McCain could still win Hawkins’ vote by putting a pro wraaastler on the bottom of the ticket.
its vintage duh on May 23, 2008 at 9:34 AM
I just can’t fathom why after the Republicans have treated their core constituency like b*&ches for the last eight years people feel like it is important that we vote for them. They don’t stand and fight for anything that is important. They failed to reform the abortion that is the social security system. They failed to secure the borders for SEVEN YEARS after the attacks on 9-11. They grew government to its largest size EVER! They failed to enact an energy policy that allows us to explore, recover, and refine our own huge oil resources (and then they have the sheer audacity to grill the oil executives why gas is so expensive). The Republican presidential nominee is riding the Global Warming Idiot Train and ready to screw us all by trying to get humans to stop using toilet paper. Oh, but whatever you do, don’t vote for anyone but McCain, or a Democrat might win. And then we would REALLY be screwed. At what point do the Republicans lose your support? What do they have to do? I am sure glad and thank God everyday that those who revolted against King George weren’t as docile as those here who say that we have to vote for McCain.
“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.” Jefferson
King of the Britons on May 23, 2008 at 9:36 AM
Once again, the “Lesser of two evils” arguement.
Way back early in the process, many of us said we were no longer going to buy into this arguement, as it allows the Parties to put up very flawed candidates.
The Repub party got hammered in 2006, and didn’t listen. They learned NOTHING. They have nominated someone who does not even come close to fitting some major pieces of their own platform. They nomintated a Washington insider who is part of the problem, not part of the solution.
They voted FOR the Farm Bill… not once, but many times…. they continue to give themselves Pork… they continue to grow the government, and they don’t fight effectivly for a Conservative agenda.
They do NOT represent me, and yet, they continue to make the arguement that the “other guy is worse, so vote for me”… if you can’t see how pathetic that arguement is when choosing the Leader of the Free World? Wow… just wow.
The two party system is failing. Both parties are so entrenched in power that we basicly have aristocracys in place… and the only way this will change is when people get fed up enough….
Well… this one is fed up… I said it early, I will not vote for McCain. He is too far out on too many issues. Repubs KNEW that many felt this way, and chose McCain anyway.
Sorry, but I, for one, no longer will vote based on the “lesser evil” arguement.
Romeo13 on May 23, 2008 at 9:36 AM
.
Great – Hoover brought us FDR, and the largest socialization of the US in history. You really want the government to expand their control over you to a greater extent than now? We are at a tipping point in history, and if we go too far left, we don’t come back – see Europe for an example.
Think_b4_speaking on May 23, 2008 at 9:37 AM
I’m sorry but voicing very real differences with John McCain does not equal MDS. You “shut up and vote McCain” people just don’t want to listen to the GOP base and go out of your way to silence all concerns about candidate McCain.
Considering your candidate took away Constitutional rights to speak, I’d be very careful running down this totalitarian route where any opposition results in comments about MDS.
highhopes on May 23, 2008 at 9:38 AM
As I sit here exercising my 1ST Amendment rights; I am becoming more convinced every day that the best use of your economic stimulus check is to bolster your 2ND Amendment rights.
I know how many democrats, republicans, socialists, and independents there are in congress; but how many Americans are there? I refer to the ones that actually practice the oath they swore to preserve, protect, and defend the constitution.
The straight talk express ran off the road sometime ago.
meci on May 23, 2008 at 9:41 AM
McCain believes that making the conservative base happy, and getting elected President in 2008 are mutually exclusive. I tend to agree.
RBMN on May 23, 2008 at 9:43 AM
posted at 9:05 am on May 23, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
.
.
That’s one thing I really don’t give a damn about. Republicans were in power and they spent like crazy. So please don’t tell me that Democrats are spender. Healthcare will not be nationalized, they know it’s a failure. They just want power so they make empty promises.
.
.
Hussein wants to be “the first Black in the White House” that’s all. Nobody will make a full retreat from Iraq, you know that. And nobody will mess with the nuclear. It’s election season, remember?
.
.
Are you saying that Dr. Condoleezza Rice’s Foreign policy is OK? Stopping Israel from fighting terrorists in Lebanon is OK? Backdoor negotiations with Syria and Iran is OK? What’s the difference between campaign rhetoric and actually doing it?
.
.
Another subject I really don’t give a damn about. I believe in Freedom. Why only in this country government wants to intervene in people’s private life?
.
.
Yes, you really trust McCain on this one. And even if you do, you think the Democrats -his buddies- in Congress will approve any judge especially when they’ll have over 60 votes in the Senate?
See? There’s no difference between a liberal and a liberal.
McCain was a mistake Republican voters will regret it.
Indy Conservative on May 23, 2008 at 9:44 AM
Just two years of an Obama WH with a Dem Congress would likely set us irreversibly on the fast track to socialism/collectivism, transforming America as we know it into something more akin to France. With consequences so historic, not voting, or voting for Obama seems unthinkable.
petefrt on May 23, 2008 at 9:45 AM
While this is certainly true, McCain is dead in the water if he doesn’t make a firm, public commitment to a tangible border security plan before he talks again about CIR.
As for Obambi, I have listened to his various nuanced hope change bs on illegal immigrants, and have no doubt that he is measurably to the left of McCain on the issue.
Voters who are concerned about the way this is done need to remain fully engaged, and communicate with every single elected Republican in the country at any level, and assure them that if McCain double crosses us on this issue, they all end up out of office. We have no option left with McCain, other than to elect a worse candidate. But we can try to leverage him now with this election, and look for a firm commitment.
If he wants to trade 30% of the legal hispanic vote for 60% of the white vote in this election, that’s his call.
Jaibones on May 23, 2008 at 9:48 AM
You are right, of course. I should have said defend, instead of spin. Everything McCain will do as President will affect the Republican, and by extension through movement of the party, the conservative brand within the Republican party. Though the labels would be irrelevant if the policies were good.
Spirit of 1776 on May 23, 2008 at 9:48 AM
McCain is still a vote moving toward the left. Furhtermore, he has no economic acumen. He brings nothing to the table that is all that different from the Democrats.
McCain is not a true Republican and he should be shunned as such. He is symbolic of the RINO-fication of the GOP. If you like the status quo and general direction of the party, by all means vote for him.
If on the other hand, you are dissatisfied with the party and it’s direction, then opposing McCain is in tall order.
You have to remember, McCain will destroy the party by being instrumental in granting amnesty to illegal aliens. That constituency will go to the Dems and forever change the voter base. Either we lose now, temporarily, or we lose later and permanently.
voiceofreason on May 23, 2008 at 9:48 AM
Fixed it
Squid Shark on May 23, 2008 at 9:51 AM
No.. I’m voting for Bob Barr..
show me where Maverick is different from the Messiah or the Nag, other than ‘R’ and ‘D’..
global warming, cap and trade.. no difference..
Illegal immigration? nope, no difference..
war on terror,.. they say otherwise but I have heard that politicians lie sometimes.. and history has proven that it doesn’t happen.. Hell, LBJ escalated the war in Vietnam..
free speech? umm, McCain Fiengold?
2nd Amendment? I really dont think he gets that as much as paying lip service to it.. you know, he’s an ‘R’ and all..
Judicial nominee? gang of 14..
please, PLEASE show me a difference between the Maverick and the Messiah..
DaveC on May 23, 2008 at 9:54 AM
It’s long past time to recognize Indy Conservative as a liberal troll, and a dumbfuck. Your racist, brainless ranting have polluted this page for too long.
Your list of retarded positions is not fit for a line by line refutation; virtually none of your claims are accurate, even before you twist them with your stupid opinions.
You claim to be some sort of “real conservative”, but can’t see the difference between GOP spending – which is ridiculous, and Dem spending, which is ridiculous x three. You use the same device in every argument: if the candidate is to the left of you on an issue, then their position is the same as Obama’s socialist position.
GFY douche.
Jaibones on May 23, 2008 at 9:54 AM
High hopes,
I have never told you to “shut up” and vote McCain. People with MDS constantly apply the greatest hyperbole to decribe McCain’s sinister intentions. Yes he does not agree with conservatives on some issues and there are real differences, however he is nothing like Obama, and to claim otherwise is the chief symtom of MDS.
Squid Shark on May 23, 2008 at 9:55 AM
Obama is intolerable.
McCain simply sucks.
What a prospect.
profitsbeard on May 23, 2008 at 9:55 AM
McCain is not running as a Republican and it is in his best interest if Republicans stay home. That’s why he continually tells the GOP base to go screw themselves.
John McCain hasn’t made any effort to even try and reach out to conservatives. You have to use flash photography to capture McCain’s movement toward far left Democrats like Feingold and Kennedy but, face it, John McCain hasn’t “reached out” or supported Republicans for years. He is a political Judas and his hopes of winning are pinned on so alienating the conservative base that only liberals go out and vote.
highhopes on May 23, 2008 at 9:55 AM
Why is Ed, et al, telling Conservatives we will win by losing?
eforhan on May 23, 2008 at 9:56 AM
.
I disagree. Losing now can’t be predicted as temporary. Odds are that Obama with a near-bulletproof dem congress will permanently alter business structure, government control of citizens, and he will move faster to legalize the aliens. Not to mention surrendering the WOT, which will make $5 per gallon gasoline look like a bargain. As I said earlier, we can influence a president McCain on policy, we have no say with a president Obama.
Think_b4_speaking on May 23, 2008 at 9:56 AM
On the other hand, by sitting out the election Hawkins will have far less right to complain about anything truly outrageous Obama does if he’s elected president. He can argue that “If only the Republicans had nominated someone better we wouldn’t be in this mess,” but when you sit out the general election process and then deride those results when Barak pulls out of Iraq or puts John Edwards on the Supreme Court, you forfeit several notches off your blog pundit credibility ratings.
jon1979 on May 23, 2008 at 9:56 AM
Illegals, liberals, and aggrieved minorities of all stripes stage huge nationwide protests when they don’t get what they want. I guess conservatives will have to start taking a look at that playbook. There’s life after Obama or McCain. It’s just going to involve a lot of protest. Both he and we will have to get used to it. Fancy a trip to DC?
JiangxiDad on May 23, 2008 at 9:58 AM
Once you resign yourself to the fact that amnesty will be passed under the next Administration…now you are ready to consider your vote. There is no difference between Barack Obama and John McCain on this issue, in fact I think the Conservatives would put up more of a fight on amnesty against Obama than they would McCain, however I agree that an Obaman presidency would be wholly disastrous in scope on many other issues.
Again, thanks early primary voters for handing us this idiot as our nominee, love ya NH, SC, FL, love ya.
What Bush hasn’t done to dilute the Conservative movement, McCain will finish off.
pecan pie on May 23, 2008 at 9:59 AM
He just gave Indy Conservative the McCain treatment..
DaveC on May 23, 2008 at 9:59 AM
Ed,
Great overview of the Yes-Mac/No-Mac debate that has been raging here on HA since Rudy tanked in Florida. At this point it seems the camps are fixed, lines drawn, troops in their foxholes.
Some of us have thrown all issues except the war under the bus. Many others won’t, it seems, so what’s the damage? How many Reps are going to stay out of the booth?
Limerick on May 23, 2008 at 10:02 AM
Obama wants unconditional amnesty and no plan to secure the border. McCain had a plan for assimilation of non-felon immigrants and border security is part of his platform.
Sounds like desperate rationalization to me…
A mistake to be sure, but if you think McCain has some evil designs on the internet or the public square, I have a tinfoil hat for you.
He has a pretty solid record on the 2nd Amendment, but your right, who could believe that, hes just a Dem in sheeps clothing.
Gang of 14 which got Roberts and Alito confirmed without risking the integrity of a procedure that we use repeatedly to get what we want.
Obama’s model for a justice is Ginsburg, McCain’s is Roberts
Obama did not vote for Roberts, McCain did.
Squid Shark on May 23, 2008 at 10:03 AM
I’m not arguing that at all. I’m saying that losing the presidential election to Obama will be a catastrophe to conservative policy across the board.
Those abandoning McCain are offering the win-by-losing strategy, saying that a loss will reinvigorate conservatism. It’s the “you have to have a Carter to get a Reagan” philosophy, which worked exactly once in our history — and Reagan was already on the national stage by that time.
Ed Morrissey on May 23, 2008 at 10:04 AM
No, you just call anyone not willing to vote for McCain INSASNE… you know, the whole MDS thing you keep spouting?
Or you say that NOT voting for McCain is the same as voting for that EVILLLLLL Obama… when it clearly is not.
Its simply casting our ballor FOR somthing, not AGAINST somthing. You know, that whole Yin Yang, positive negative kind of thing…
Romeo13 on May 23, 2008 at 10:05 AM
The problem is, that every time the lesser of two evils is elected the country moves further to the left anyway. Damned if you do …..
OldEnglish on May 23, 2008 at 10:06 AM
It’s too late, Ed. It’s not going to work. Those of us who follow politics know too much about McCain through the years, and he’s only made it worse in the past few months: cap & trade, no drilling in ANWR, support for the polar bear restrictions, amnesty for illegals, blaming the Fed’s Gov’t exclusively for the mess in NO, and bipartisanship, bipartisanship, bipartisanship.
I think Johah Goldberg has the best suggestion: let him pick an old Dem like Nunn as VP, let it be known that neither one of the team will run a second time, and give conservatives some hope that the party can be turned around in the next four years.
Otherwise, I truly believe it’s a no-go for conservatives, Obama or not.
Nichevo on May 23, 2008 at 10:07 AM
I don’t see this thread earning anyone McCain points.
F15Mech on May 23, 2008 at 10:07 AM
Hmmm… just struck me as I was getting a cup of coffee…
McCain, Obama, Hillary… are all sitting Senators.
The Senate has historicly low approval rates… or… they have NOT been doing an effective job of governing this country. The House and Senate are a LARGE part of the reason we are in the mess we are in now…
And yet, all three are asking to get promoted.
This could be the ultimate Peter Principal Election.
Romeo13 on May 23, 2008 at 10:08 AM
Then, instead of equating valid criticism with MDS, give us some legitimate reasons why we should support McCain! Telling me that he is better than Obama isn’t a reason why I should vote for a man who on some very key issues DOES HOLD the exact same position. Prove it if you can but I think you have your work cut out for you.
Iraq aside, there really is very little difference between McCain and Obama on issues including immigration and environmental issues. We get amnesty and business crushing eco-totalitarianism with either candidate. McCain claims he is fiscally responsible but is proposing bigger government which means higher taxes- just like Obama. McCain has joined liberal Democrats on key votes countless times and cannot be trusted to deliver the kind of judicial nominees that will not legislate from the bench- we may not get another Ginsberg but we will be stuck with a Souter instead of an Alito/Roberts/Thomas and that is nearly as bad.
In short, what you call MDS I call being realistic about where the nation will go under John McCain and it isn’t all that different than where the nation will go under Obama. I think you are suffering from MDS: MCCAIN DENIAL SYNDROME.
highhopes on May 23, 2008 at 10:08 AM
How can you say this when we have had no influence to date and we still hold the voting card? Therefore after elected, we will have even less influence. He has shunned our principles and will only continue to do so.
Sorry, no sale here.
voiceofreason on May 23, 2008 at 10:09 AM
A promise of one term? Make himself a lame-duck on his first day in office?
Limerick on May 23, 2008 at 10:09 AM
.
Let’s clarify the issue, based on the fact of the two party dominance in the US:
.
Vote for Barry = vote for Barry
Vote for McCain = vote for McCain
Vote for Barr = backdoor vote for Barry
Vote for Nader = backdoor vote for McCain
Vote for nobody = weak protest, leaving the voter on the outside
.
Let’s face it, either Barry or Johnny will be the next president. If you can’t handle a straight vote for either one of them, see the above table to see how your vote affects the outcome of the election.
Think_b4_speaking on May 23, 2008 at 10:10 AM
You’re another proof that it’s just two faces of the same coin.
Indy Conservative on May 23, 2008 at 10:13 AM
A vote for McCain is a vote for the demise of the conservative party. Which is already dying. We either take back the party now or lose it forever.
voiceofreason on May 23, 2008 at 10:13 AM
Silver lining: A liberal Senator will resign by the end of the calendar year, that’s a given.
Hope. Change. And all that jazz.
Question: Conservative prospects for replacements???
pecan pie on May 23, 2008 at 10:13 AM
Ed, I appreciate the argument and I appreciate even more sparing us the “Shut up and get in line” mantra the McShamnesty sycophants pound over and over again.
However, what are conservatives supposed to do? Are we really supposed to feel like we’ve accomplished something if we help get him elected?
Yes, he is better on some issues but the issues he’s bad on could wreak almost as much havok as if B. Hussein were president. I mean amnesty and the global warming hoax. Those two together will destroy our economy and fundamentally change this entire country and not for the better.
So my question is, why should I vote for McCain and give him tacit endorsement to pursue these horrible, horrible policies? I seriously want to know, and I want an answer that isn’t predicated on the “or else you get Obama” rationale. If I vote for McCain, I will be giving permission to this old man to do all of these awful things that I don’t want him to do.
So, what am I supposed to do???
Darksean on May 23, 2008 at 10:13 AM
No snark here. What evidence can you point to for this statement?
The things that concern me most are the wot and judges. I’m optimistic that the Iraq will continue to improve as it has recently. Assuming a continued line of success and Bush establishing a long-term strategic agreement with Iraq, I hope that will be a non-issue.
You might recall during the democratic debates, the word was that Bush suggested that the democrats not box themselves in with commitments until they were in the office and could see the whole picture. Next debate following Obama said he couldn’t guarantee that we’d be out by 2013, so whoever he was listening to, it had an impact. This isn’t to imply conservatives might have a say with Obama, just that it seems more likely to me that they will take whatever answer makes them look the best at the time. If we are winning at the end of the year, they’ll stay the course, I expect.
Spirit of 1776 on May 23, 2008 at 10:13 AM
.
Recall the last time amnesty was brought to a vote, and soundly defeated. Given an Obama presidency and veto-proof congress, it will pass and in the most extreme form the dems want it.
Think_b4_speaking on May 23, 2008 at 10:14 AM
Respectfully, Ed, you’re still suggesting that Conservatives to win by losing… that they’ll be winning by voting for the lesser of two evils than voting for their actual values.
We won in 2000 and 2004 and though I respect Mr. Bush for his fight in the GWOT, it’s obvious the vast majority of conservative values have been thrown out. Even the GOP-controlled Congress ended up being a part of the problem. We lost by winning.
What makes 2008 any different?
Mind you, the right choice of a VP could change my mind.
eforhan on May 23, 2008 at 10:15 AM
Will he give me amnesty by the end of the day?
Indy Conservative on May 23, 2008 at 10:15 AM
Oh, I’m gonna vote – it just wont be for McCain. The lesser of three evils is still evil.
And why should I trust “The Mav” to keep his word to conservatives when he has a history (habit?) of “reaching” across the aisle? And dont we already have immigration laws? If those are not enforced, then what guarantee do I have that The Mav’s administration will enforce the new ones? Maybe they’ll enforce the new ones until the “new” wears off?
abcurtis on May 23, 2008 at 10:15 AM
Very well said, sir!
Darksean on May 23, 2008 at 10:15 AM
“The secret” to getting elected President in November of 2008, as a Republican:
Be the solid second choice for Democrats, because for about half of Democratic Primary voters, their first choice won’t be on the November ballot. If you’re their solid second choice, you’ll either get their vote, or you’ll get their failure to vote against you, and that’s all it takes.
RBMN on May 23, 2008 at 10:17 AM
.
No offense intended, but are you old enough to remember the 70’s under Carter, when he had a veto-proof congress? Memories of that time (I was middle school/high school) still remain clear in my mind.
Think_b4_speaking on May 23, 2008 at 10:17 AM
Putting a Democrat on the Republican ticket? Talk about Ed’s catastrophe of conservative policy (and influence)! Having the White House incumbent be a Democrat after McCain presumed one term? I honestly do not follow that logic at all.
If I wanted to vote for a Democrat, there’s one right on the other side of the ticket.
BigD on May 23, 2008 at 10:17 AM
I don’t buy the winning-by-losing strategy either Ed but you have to admit that the lesser-of-two evils position is just as bad if you are a social conservative. There is nothing in McCain’s platform, behavior, or attitude to suggest that he will respect (or even listen to) those of us who disagree with him.
highhopes on May 23, 2008 at 10:17 AM
Ed’s laid out the pragmatic faction. Now I want to see the principle faction make it’s argument. Not about why they won’t vote for McCain (months of HA threads are full of that), but what plan does the principle faction have to reverse the damage caused by Barry and a Dem congress?
Limerick on May 23, 2008 at 10:18 AM
Fully ONE THIRD of the electorate is registered Independent.
Many Repubs won’t vote for McCain.
Many Hillary supporters won’t vote for Obama.
Congress has HORRIBLE approval ratings… with the two parties in charge.
Bush has horrible approval ratings.
And you continue the arguement that we only have TWO choices… between Dumb and Dumber.
Just based on the NUMBERS, there will be a third choice soon… where its going to come from? How it will evolve with the Two Parties LEGALLY entrenched in the system? I don’t know… but its coming.
The two parties have a vested interest in making the American electorate believe they have no other choice, when clearly they do…
Romeo13 on May 23, 2008 at 10:19 AM
.
I agree with you, but it isn’t going to happen by this November.
Think_b4_speaking on May 23, 2008 at 10:20 AM
This is very weak.
McCain advocated for amnesty (and still does) and had nothing to do with the grassroots opposition that defeated it. McCain is part of the problem not part of the solution. You are really grasping here.
voiceofreason on May 23, 2008 at 10:20 AM
That pretty well sums it up.
BigD on May 23, 2008 at 10:21 AM
.
Yes, please.
Think_b4_speaking on May 23, 2008 at 10:21 AM
What does that have to do with our influence on McCain?
I’m concerned McCain might be another Carter actually, akin to Romeo’s point above re: Peter Principle – not in ideology, but in competence. At least with our current President he has governed MBA style. I doubt we’d even get that luxury with McCain.
Spirit of 1776 on May 23, 2008 at 10:21 AM
Obama does not consider the border an issue, so he is more dangerous. He will just “give it up” to one of the leaders for favors.
McCain at least has a plan, a stupid foolish plan, and understands the importance of doing something, even something stupid and foolish…did I mention his plan is stupid and foolish?
Obama’s lack of plan is dangerous.
So take your pick…stupid and foolish, or dangerous.
right2bright on May 23, 2008 at 10:24 AM
Sucks to be in the minority, doesn’t it?
RBMN on May 23, 2008 at 10:24 AM
IMO, it woke him up to the extent that he is now talking about enforcement at least. But, given that he or Barry is the next president, you have to pick your poison. If you can’t vote for McCain, what do you do?
Think_b4_speaking on May 23, 2008 at 10:24 AM
Take a hard look at the history of revolutions.
French, Russian, American… they did not evolve slowly… there was a tipping point where the people went from anger to action… and that point can come very quickly.
Given the state of communications today? It could come even faster.
Romeo13 on May 23, 2008 at 10:27 AM
Can’t speak for others, but I think the ‘all politics is local’ mantra is part of that answer. Meaning instead of money and time to the top, money and time to the House and Senate elections to try to be the brakes. Which, as you will undoubtedly counter, is necessary regardless of the top of the ticket, as one is a progressive and the other a non-conservative, a point to which I will then readily assent.
Spirit of 1776 on May 23, 2008 at 10:27 AM
He was just about my last choice in the primaries as well, so I’m not defending him,just pointing out that the alternative is horrible and dangerous. I also don’t buy the ‘give up this year, so get another Reagan later’ argument – too dangerous nowdays, with Iran, AQ, Gorists, etc.
Think_b4_speaking on May 23, 2008 at 10:28 AM
Aside from cap-and -trade, where does he propose bigger govt?
I have my problems with McCain, but for the most part I agree with him even when he offends you T.C.’s in your vaunted throne of political righteousness. Here is why I support McCain:
He has been a budget and deficit hawk fighting pork and overspending while the rest of the party went off the deep-end.
I feel his performance in the GWOT will be better than Bush’s. The persons he will place in the Pentagon and the state dept will be of the mind that I think is neccessary to properly right this war.
He ascribes to the constuctionist model on judges but also is careful to vet them before they hit the Senate, knowing that the more vocally conservative judges harm the cause of building a constructionist court.
I agree with McCain and Newt that we need to be a part of the conversation about climate change and the environment, rather than sticking our fingers in our ears and saying “the market will make it all better”.
I initially supported CFR, but as I grew older and wiser, I oppose it. It will likely be overturned by a future Supreme Court.
I oppose all forms of govt involvement in marriage and support a civil union contract between any two consenting adults who want to share their property and benifits.
I oppose a federal marriage amendment
Squid Shark on May 23, 2008 at 10:30 AM
If a bullfrog had wings, he wouldnt bump his butt everytime he jumped. By the same token, IF conservatives would band together and vote third party, then there’s a chance the candidate, if he didnt outright win, would put up a good showing and that might tell the R party something. But that’s IF. Note: see bullfrog.
I’ve spent too many elections voting for the lesser of two evils. I’m not going to do it anymore. If obama wins and destroys this country, well, so be it. Maybe we need a good shaking up.
abcurtis on May 23, 2008 at 10:31 AM
I don’t either; I’m not peddling it. There is no way to accurately predict whether the conservative cause would be stronger after or absent McCain. Always in motion is the future. It’s just conjecture at this point.
Spirit of 1776 on May 23, 2008 at 10:32 AM
you must have tried that wine recipe :)
Limerick on May 23, 2008 at 10:32 AM
With all due respect, what plan does the pragmatic faction have for reversing the far more lasting damage caused by conservatives be willing to voluntarily erase any distinction between the Party that represents them and the Party they oppose via their vote?
BigD on May 23, 2008 at 10:33 AM
Btw – I went to McCain’s website about a week ago and left a question about McCain’s stand on abortion. As of today, I’ve had no reply, not that I expect one. My guess is The Mav’s people have to check with Kennedy first to get McCain’s take on it.
abcurtis on May 23, 2008 at 10:35 AM
George Soros? Wouldnt surprise me in the least.
abcurtis on May 23, 2008 at 10:36 AM
Its only damage in your mind, you were all willing to vote for Bush twice.
Squid Shark on May 23, 2008 at 10:37 AM
It woke him up to the extent that he had to give it lip service that is all. Just yesterday he was clamoring for comprehensive amnesty when he was Ahhnold. He has learned nothing and will forge ahead with his agenda, not ours.
If I have to pick my poison that means I am going to die anyway. That being the case, I will die knowing I didn’t foster the the betrayal known as the McCain candidacy.
voiceofreason on May 23, 2008 at 10:37 AM
His record is pretty clear on this, but keep on projecting if you want.
Squid Shark on May 23, 2008 at 10:38 AM
Dang’d if you do, dung’d if you don’t.
Not voting, or voting for Barr or anyone other than McLaim (apologies to the handicapped), is a vote for the MOST EXTREME LIBERAL EVER TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT. BO.
Yeah, it stinks, but so do a lot of other dirty jobs.
kirkill on May 23, 2008 at 10:39 AM
The playpen is rollicking as predicted.
Come one, come all and hear the laments,
“If the so called conservative party is not responsive to it’s more conservative constituency, then the party needs to punished to be brought back in line with it’s members.”
“I’m sick of the lesser of two evils approach to politics”
Conservative party? Where and when? You folks keep thinking that there is a lot of you. Or really? Where? Who have you elected? Basically no one. Were there conservatives in any great numbers in Congress these last eight years or ever? I did not see any. Virtually every one was at the earmark trough violating the number one rule for conservative existence–Fiscal restraint–all other conservative traits are secondary.
Get over yourselves. The pain in your side is from that fork. You are done. Hell you never were, you are a myth in your own mind. You elected some jokers that agreed with some of your personal core beliefs. That’s your mistake. Listen to you even now, I want this, I want that, crying like sissies. Half you clowns would elect anyone that deported all the illegals, excusing all the while their spending the country into the shit house. Listen to all your complaints/demands. You have not a clue on how conservatism even started and why it exists dating back to the 1750’s.
As a group you faux conservatives, you have never ever demanded fiscal restraint from anyone except as point on a long list. What you do mostly is present a list of societal demands. You are dems posing as repubs as long as the spending was in your sector of the grid. Look at who voted for the farm bill. These are the same losers that agree with some of your pet peeves. Well there’s a big fking whoopy do. And what did that get you? Nothing but deeper in debt, a debt you will pay. On this you have already voted.
When you finally all get a clue you will realize that most of life–especially politics– is a lesser of two evils not some fantasy playpen where if you scream loud enough somebody will stick a tit in your mouth.
And for a lot of you other trolls at least have the balls to wear an Obama pin.
And finally and more important than anything else in this election you mental midgets,
WE ARE AT WAR!!!!
patrick neid on May 23, 2008 at 10:39 AM
Romeo13 – My wife asks me why I haunt these forums and why I listen to talk radio. I tell her it’s encouraging to me to know there’s somebody else that thinks the things I’m thinking. Seems you and I are on the same page.
abcurtis on May 23, 2008 at 10:39 AM
There wont be anything left to shake up.
Squid Shark on May 23, 2008 at 10:40 AM
I dunno BigD. I’m a very dissatisfied Republican. My party has gone bonkers. Being a single issue voter this time around means I’m going to place my bet with McCain because that single issue (the war) will be a disaster under Obama.
Personally I believe McCain is nuts to take the Lieberman route to the WH, but as Think_b4_speaking said, this election we have two options……Johnny or Barry. I’m all ears to fixing the party but throwing the war under the bus isn’t an option for me. I’ll worry about the scars later, I’m more concerned about stopping the bleeding right now.
Limerick on May 23, 2008 at 10:40 AM
Comment pages: 1 2 3 Next »