There are a lot of teenage girls in the United States having sex. Out public school system teaches them to go ahead and have sex and here is the way to do it safely. Yes, as long as you are “mature”, you can choose to have sex with whomever you want and with as many as you want as long as they are not over 18 years old. Once the young woman reaches that magical age of 18, she can then have sex with gramps if she wants to. Furthermore, she needs not worry about getting pregnant because she can always get an abortion.

What does the FLDS teach their young women? That the greatest way to serve God is to become Mothers! Boys are taught that it is their duty to become fathers and support the mother(s) of their children and the children.

Hence, the FLDS are committing sexual abuse by teaching their girls that the highest honor a woman can achieve on earth is to become mothers and their boys to become fathers irregardless of the polygamy.

Meanwhile, those of us who are living and working outside of those FLDS compounds and have children are trying to teach morals too. However, the state is teaching our young women to become whores and sluts and our young men to become users of the young women without any responsibility for their co-action.

For all this blather about LDS and Joseph Smith – r2b – you don’t have to believe it. You have your free agency. But don’t try and convince those of us who believe, because, I won’t convince you and you won’t convince me. Give it up.
And, by the way, (Oh, John would laugh for all of you who know) I guess you mean before he turned himself in with his brother and was shot to death by a mob, while in jail.

I was under the impression that the Extermination Order was more political than anything. Suddenly, frontier states and counties with small populations had larger numbers of people immigrating in. All these people had a like-minded philosophy and could be directed to vote/act political in a certain way.

This scared the “locals” as all of the sudden local and state politics could be controlled by outsiders with a majority. Thus, the Mormons were kicked out of Missouri, Illinois, Ohio . . .

thomashton on May 23, 2008 at 11:29 AM

You are correct, there were many “reasons”, don’t forget it was common practice to “move” the Indians off there land also. It was kind of the “thing to do”.
The Mormons were secretive, they were “breaking laws” with polygamy, there was a band of dissenters (ex-mormons) who were behind most of the shenanigans. that is where the famous salt sermon (“If the salt have lost its savor, wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.”) came from. They were gearing up for a epic battle to the death (Mormons and ex-Mormons). They (Mormons) would buy up land, move into a town or county and populate all of the political seats and then grant themselves favor. While stepping all over the ex-Mormons. There were a lot of ex-Mormons, this was a different Mormon church then now, they were very strict and if you did not follow then you were cast out, this was in 1838 or so, not much of an organized society. So when things got out of control, in comes the calvary.

“General Clark made the following speech to the brethren on the public square:…’The orders of the governor to me were, that you should be exterminated, and not allowed to remain in the state, and had your leaders not been given up, and the terms of the treaty complied with, before this, you and your families would have been destroyed and your houses in ashes.’”

Neither side was very nice.

During a transfer to another prison in the spring of 1839, Smith escaped.

Hence the statement “Smith was never convicted”, which is correct, he escaped after pre-trial.

For someone who likes to call everyone else stupid when they read what you wrote versus what you meant…I will again spell it out for you. Based on my hunch that you secretly want to shoot those eeevil Mormons, should I raid your compound, remove your kids, take your guns, and ignore your lawyers? Trying to apply the same stick of judgment you are using here.

Don’t get me started on inept case workers. For the most part they are balanced out by even more inept judges. And in this case it was an over-zealous department and and over-zealous judge, who get away with it because of people like you who make it a polygamy and Mormon issue.
The only way the judge and case workers can be kept in check is if the majority of the people cry foul. Luckily in this case the appeal process is working, but the damage is already done.

I honestly didn’t like the feeling that I had while visiting Mormon compounds in SLC. Felt too much like a cult. However, I agree that Mormons seem to be willing to pay much more attention to actually following their rules themselves than forcing others to do it.

freevillage on May 23, 2008 at 12:04 PM

I’ve lived off and on for 20 years within 2 hours of SLC and never been to a Mormon compound. That is funny as I myself am Mormon.

What are these “compounds” you’re speaking of and how can I visit? Perhaps they are only available to tourists.

You give the false impression of a Waco, Jonestown, Eldorado etc. My feeling is that it was intentional.

The thing that gets me is how they call Mormons a cult and say that they believe crazy things when Mormonism is just Christianity with an addendum.

Which makes it a simple ordering problem. If you take a stupid ancient book of cruel and immoral fairy tales, and add to it just the right touch of racism, abuse of women and pedophilia, the end result will be worse than the original. Hence, of course, Mormon theology is even more ridiculous and insane than mainstream Christianity.

You’re right though that the Mormon culture is much more than or arguably very different from its literal theology. I honestly didn’t like the feeling that I had while visiting Mormon compounds in SLC. Felt too much like a cult. However, I agree that Mormons seem to be willing to pay much more attention to actually following their rules themselves than forcing others to do it.

right2bright

I was under the impression that the Extermination Order was more political than anything. Suddenly, frontier states and counties with small populations had larger numbers of people immigrating in. All these people had a like-minded philosophy and could be directed to vote/act political in a certain way.

This scared the “locals” as all of the sudden local and state politics could be controlled by outsiders with a majority. Thus, the Mormons were kicked out of Missouri, Illinois, Ohio . . .

Personally I think Christians are jealous of Mormons because they have better self control, are more dedicated to their religion, and Mormonism produces better results than your speaking in tongues bigots.

LevStrauss on May 23, 2008 at 9:42 AM

This defense of my religion from a non-believer cracked me up. Too funny sir. I appreciate friends like you.

That is supremecist, in an environment where reason and logic doesn’t afford them that right. In other words, if people want to badmouth other faiths they should be prepared to be judged themselves.

LevStrauss on May 23, 2008 at 10:07 AM

Well then, the argument is closed. You cannot say anything ill, even if correct, about any other religious group.
But one thing is clear, why would you lecture me on something you don’t believe exists? If it doesn’t exist, why do you care?
We are asked to judge, that is how you make a decision, you judge don’t you?
And your welcome for all that we have given you…like I said, a beggar rarely thanks his benefactor.

People can be as crazy as they want, I don’t particularly care, but when one crazy guy is condescending to the other crazy guy, somebody with a semblence of sanity should set the former straight.

I never said all Christians, I said “some of these Christians” and I qualified it as Christians that badmouth other religions that beleive in the same superstitious stuff. That is supremecist, in an environment where reason and logic doesn’t afford them that right. In other words, if people want to badmouth other faiths they should be prepared to be judged themselves.

Bottom line, whether you approve of this group or not, barring a violation of the law, they are free to live their lives and raise their children as they choose. This was a political hit on a group that was politically vulnerable. Many muslims are also practicing polygamy, yet PC dictates a “hands off” approach.

KC on May 23, 2008 at 7:27 AM

However, common law supercedes the “one marriage license” idea. Your number 1 is not accurate.
The rest is an accurate and sad summary.

LevStrauss on May 23, 2008 at 9:42 AM

Look around, and see what those crazy faithful people have built for you.
God forbid that you (or a family member) need to go to hospital, that hospital is more then likely built by Christian or Jewish crazy jealous people.
The University system, the first in the nation, built by those crazy jealous people.
The first to give aid to victims, open their doors to the homeless, the abused women…why it is those crazy jealous Christians. Those undisciplined, undedicated, Christians feed more hungry every night, then you would ever imagine, or care about. We pay more mortgages, put food on more tables, care for more children, then you even know about (obviously). We visit the dying, and care for the living, and it takes a post like yours for you to get a glimpse, but you will reject it; because it is beyond your understanding of the kindness and consideration that the jealous, un-controlled Christians give, more then they take…but you get to take.
You live in a land built upon those principles, you enjoy the fruits freely given to you, and like most beggars, you don’t appreciate the giver.

There’s a reason many here in Texas refer to CPS as CAS – “Child Abductive Services”. This case is merely one example.

Vic on May 23, 2008 at 8:51 AM

That is true in most every state, so how do we protect children that are abused?
I will guarantee that there is almost no turnover of personal in any CPS office in any state. You can have the most inept people…

Personally I think Christians are jealous of Mormons because they have better self control, are more dedicated to their religion, and Mormonism produces better results than your speaking in tongues bigots.

Right2Bright..

So.. to hell with Due Process of Law if your creep ‘O’ meter goes off at the religious camp?

DaveC on May 23, 2008 at 8:38 AM

Yeah, I get it, but there has to be some discernment. I am not as cut and dried as some of you guys of who is right and wrong.
CPS can be way over the top, way over…yet, if we found out 5 years from now that children had been abused, we would nail them for being ineffective.
Don’t forget this was a very secret compound, a very influential church (the actual LDS) “flagged” it as being off the charts. This church was a thorn in the side of the LDS, people kept tying them, falsely, to the Mormons. There was a lot leading up to this, not just a phone call, if left alone and unanswered, could have been a tragedy.
Jones, Koresh, and others “prophets” have led to real tragedy. At least it wasn’t a “Waco” massacre, and maybe hindsight could have been handled better, but look at the signs leading up to it.
There is always a chance of something like this:
Nutcase:

The lone survivor of the 1997 Heaven’s Gate mass suicide in Rancho Santa Fe, in a television interview that aired Friday, said he left the cult a month before 39 people took their own lives so he could stay behind and tell the group’s story.

I understand the tragedy of taking the kids, but not taking precautions, and moving quickly could have been worse. We know now that probably not.

Now lets go over what you wrote. You said “it was because?” a question mark, implying that there must of been a valid reason for it. You then made the giant leap that it was polygamy…
I tell you, your writing skills are terrible, and yet it is I the humble reader who is dumb and can’t read, it is I your humble reader who misquotes you.

Conservative Voice on May 22, 2008 at 9:34 PM

First of all, I was posting to someone who had a knowledge of the history. The question mark was to show that it was a rhetorical question, because I knew the reader had the answer, one of the main reasons was Smith’s insistence regarding polygamy. The law was a little different in 1838, a little more brutal, and less judicial (as wrong as it was). Read the reports and you will see it wasn’t a “giant leap”, which is why I wasn’t posting to you. I knew you would not understand.

Marsh , then President of the Mormon’s Twelve Apostles, signed an affidavit before the Richmond Justice of the Peace, Henry Jacobs. Marsh’s affidavit stated that “They have among them (the ‘Mormons’) a company consisting of all that are considered true ‘Mormons,’ called Danites, who have taken an oath to support the heads of The Church in all things, whether right or wrong. I have heard the Prophet say that he would yet tread down his enemies, and walk over their dead bodies; that, if he was not let alone, he would be a second Mohammed to this generation, and that he would make it one gore of blood from the Rocky Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean.”

A few days later, Joseph Smith personally led a Danite group into Daviess County, threatening the officers of the county with death if they did not allow Mormons normal civil rights.

And normal civil rights included polygamy for Smith.
Justice of the Peace Philip Covington provided a sworn deposition in Daviess County that on 18 September 1838, he witnessed a band of 100 or more Mormon men march into Gallatin and drive out the citizens, before robbing and burning the store and Post Office. On 20 September (1838), a group of 25 armed Mormons informed Covington that he had until the following morning to leave the county, or he and his family would be attacked.

Several non-Mormons attested that on 18 October 1838, on orders from Joseph Smith, a band of Mormons burned almost every building in Gallatin to the ground after robbing all items of value they could remove

Still the extermination order was wrong. The majority of anti-Mormons were led my ex-Mormons (read the Salt Sermon).
Regardless here are a couple of links to help you (no they are not “anti-Mormon), one is from what was the most respected scholar of history, until…will read the PBS interview.
Interview
His Book review
And another look at Mormon persecution
Now lds-mormon.com is not a pro mormon site, but it has a balance from the official site.
Read, and then any questions Google the facts. The facts won’t come from the anti-Mormon or the LDS sites. But when there is a question or conflict between the two, investigate. Quinn did.

So.. to hell with Due Process of Law if your creep ‘O’ meter goes off at the religious camp?

Have I said the state should take away your kids based on my hunch?

Conservative Voice on May 22, 2008 at 9:40 PM

Well, I don’t live in a secret compound, with multiple wives and hundreds of kids that have no idea of the lineage. I am not under suspect by one of the most influential churches (LDS) who have denounced my practices for decades. I have not had a wife “escape” and detail child and women atrocities, and a child did not call (and good luck on the argument it was bogus), all while living under the confines of a self proclaimed prophet. Manson, Jim Jones, just to name a couple of “prophets”.
You may be the person to gamble with childrens lives, I would rather not.
All of the behavior pattern of a “compound gone wild” was there, and I thing the authorities had more information then you do…unless you are a “seer” and know the truth.

sulla on May 22, 2008 at 9:14 PM
Mormon Doc on May 22, 2008 at 9:27 PM

Okay, rather then you guys using your “character assasination”, how about some facts.
Show me where my quotes were wrong, and I will retract what I said.
I will show you, from LDS sites, support for what I stated.
Now here is your time to put me in my place. You can hate what I post, you can despise it, but you won’t find it in accurate. This is information from your LDS site, that is what is so strange about your response.
Smith and Young had child brides (and it was illegal), taken from homes of their followers. They had sex with those child brides. They were polygamists, when polygamy was illegal, and they knew it.
Now, you point out specifically where these statements are untrue. And then, instead of saying some garbage about money being in “anti-Mormon (as if the Mormon church doesn’t raise their own money), you will state some facts.

I wish I was anti-LDS sometimes. There seems to be a lot of money in it. : )

What does this mean?

(1) To avoid breaking any bigamy/polygamy laws, people LEGALLY marry only ONE person. It is not against the law to live with or have sex with many people. It may be immoral to some, but it is NOT illegal. A lot of folks in Hollywood would have their children taken from them if that were the case.

(2) In violation of family court orders to keep siblings together, CPS scattered them across the state of Texas, hundreds of miles apart.

(3) CPS “misidentified” several ADULTS as MINORS.

(4) Shortly after the raid, the men volunteered to leave the ranch so that the women and children could live there, under the supervision of CPS while it conducted an investigation. CPS rejected the offer.

(5) To date, almost two months after the raid, no criminal charges have been filed for abuse. The children are not allowed access to their religious materials, by order of CPS. So much for the First Amendment.

Bottom line, whether you approve of this group or not, barring a violation of the law, they are free to live their lives and raise their children as they choose. This was a political hit on a group that was politically vulnerable. Many muslims are also practicing polygamy, yet PC dictates a “hands off” approach.

I was astonished when they took ALL the children. It was an obvious overstep and violation of the law. What were they thinking? It’s likely many of these children will be far more traumatized by this ordeal than they ever would have been by their parents.

Abuse is rampant in foster care. I wonder if any of these children has been sexually abused in the time since they were taken from their parents? If so, CPS is directly responsible for that abuse.

The illegality was obvious from the start. If this ends in a suit which takes my tax dollars, the CPS leaders should be held liable.

I oppose forced marriages of any kind, but the actions of LEA in this case were an even worse abomination. I love Texas despite the fact that the law here is utterly corrupt. Fake drugs. Fake informants. Fake probable cause. Fake evidence. Fake DWI arrests. Fake justice.

I can’t believe some of the thing you people are saying… so sad… I wonder if it were your daughter be raped by a 50 year old if you would be so defiant. frankly this doesn’t even seem like a HotAir page…

Kaptain Amerika on May 22, 2008 at 7:10 PM

I’m sure others have commented, but I stopped reading comments at your (above) post.

There are pitfalls to assuming someone/something is guilty. You can’t condemn without first being rational and looking at the evidence, amiright?

Rushing to JUDGMENT and snatching 400+ kids from their mothers is a bit unhinged. NOW we have a court that agrees with that sentiment. We do not need another Waco at this point.

Meanwhile, in San Fransisco, Bernie Ward is allowed to live with his children after exchanging child porn and admitting to sexual fantasies about his kids and their friends.

What a country.