He should have used Battlefield Earth
posted at 5:52 pm on May 18, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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The US military apologized, and rather profusely, for the actions of one soldier who used a Koran for target practice in a suburb of Baghdad. How big of an apology did tribal leaders from Radhwaniya receive from Major General Jeffrey Hammond? Hammond presented them with a new copy of the book, freshly kissed by another military official, and pronouced himself humbled:
A soldier used the Quran — Islam’s holy book — for target practice, forcing the chief U.S. commander in Baghdad to issue a formal apology on Saturday. ….
“I come before you here seeking your forgiveness,” Hammond said to tribal leaders and others at the apology ceremony. “In the most humble manner I look in your eyes today and I say please forgive me and my soldiers.”
Another military official kissed a Quran and presented it as “a humble gift” to the tribal leaders.
The soldier claimed that he didn’t know the book was the Koran, which seems a little hard to believe. Someone wrote an expletive in the book and it had been shot several times. Iraqis found it later when the military snipers left the police shooting range in Radhwaniya, complete with a target drawn on it.
The apology was necessary, says Robert Spencer of Jihad Watch, but overdone:
If he knew what the book was, the soldier was stupid, because even if it is true that the Qur’an contains mandates for violence against unbelievers, and it is true, doing something like this will only turn into enemies some people who might otherwise not be your enemies. This is not the same thing as the Dinesh D’Souza argument that we must not speak about the elements of Islam that jihadists use to justify violence and supremacism, because doing so will turn “moderates” into “extremists” — D’Souza in that is asking us to ignore and deny the truth, which is never an effective strategy in wartime or peacetime. But that is not the same thing as avoiding unnecessary provocation that will require you to fight battles that you otherwise would not have to fight. …
The reactions of Major General Hammond and his staff were understandable, but excessive. They don’t want to alienate people they believe they have won over, or whom they hope to win over, in Baghdad. They had to disavow this soldier’s action. However, kissing the Qur’an and begging for forgiveness — and holding an apology “ceremony” in the first place — are gestures that spring from a misunderstanding of how they are likely to be perceived by the “tribal leaders and others at the apology ceremony.”
Major General Hammond is anxious to show that the U.S. is not at war with Islam. Fine. But to kiss the Qur’an and to beg for forgiveness are signs that one accepts its authority and the authority of those before whom one is begging. Coming from non-Muslims, it is likely that they will be interpreted as gestures of submission, and the submission of non-Muslims to Muslims is a significant concept in Islamic law — although I am sure Major General Hammond and his staff are unaware of this. Given that, is it wise to be giving such impressions? Are such impressions not likely to create even more tension in the future?
Shooting a Koran for target practice is simply a stupid thing to do under any circumstances. Doing it in an Iraqi police shooting range and leaving it behind for the Iraqis to find is more than just stupid, it’s a deliberate insult to the people we want to trust us. That shows a real malevolence rather than just thoughtlessness, and almost a desire to undermine the hard work done by the American military in getting the Sunni tribes to align themselves with the US against their more lunatic co-religionists.
I understand what Robert says about the impression of submission and agree with him, but General Hammond has to walk a tightrope in Radhwaniya. He needs to make an apology that shows real remorse and appreciation for the disrespect shown to the Iraqis by his soldier, and I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt as to how best to express it. If the Iraqis received the impression that Robert explains in his excellent post, it will only exist in reality in their minds, and burdens Hammond not at all. Hammond also has to consider the difficult position into which this puts the tribal leaders who threw their lot in with the US among their own people; they need a strong expression of humility to salvage their own standing.
In the future, let’s hope American soldiers pick better titles for target practice. I’d suggest anything by V.C. Andrews or Karl Marx. Do HA readers have any suggestions?
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The story could be fake (ALA Gitmo) or it might not be. To early to tell.
Put yourself in their shoes for a moment. An army invades your country; kicks out the only leadership you’ve known in 30+ years; then tells you things are going to get better.
Then they SHOOT your HOLY book?
I don’t know about the rest of you, but I would never DREAM of going into a Jewish Temple and urinating on thier Holy scrolls! That, is what this soldier did! If, in fact, this happened!
No matter your religion, would you want your Holy books shot?
FloridaBill on May 18, 2008 at 8:43 PM
anything by Micheal Moore.. book or DVD..
or that douche bag Morgan Spurlock.. the ’supersize me’ dude..
DaveC on May 18, 2008 at 8:45 PM
Maybe the general who kissed the koran was muslim? No real Christian would kiss the koran.
AZCON on May 18, 2008 at 8:48 PM
You seem to be conflating a lot of issues together, so I’m gonna step away here, but I would like to point out one thing to this comment:
To which I say:
Thank God constitutions can be changed.
Don’t give up hope.
apollyonbob on May 18, 2008 at 8:49 PM
One question to throw out here:
What if Hitler had dressed Mein Kampf up as a religious text, and himself as the Prophet?
Would we be hearing about how Nazism is another “Religion of Peace”?
Lancer on May 18, 2008 at 8:57 PM
AZCON:
I don’t profess to be an expert on Iraqi/Muslim religious practices, but that act MAY have been within the local customs for apology!
Further, “Kissing” the Koran would NOT be ascribing the “Kisser” to its’ tenants. Possibly, JUST, showing RESPECT to those who adhere to it’s beliefs (Sorry, can’t find glasses to proof read).
Again, we are there to WIN, and that means winning “Hearts and Minds” and showing - DAILY - that while we may not be Muslim - WE, all of us, Respect that they are!
Fanatisism WILL die down, over time, if we do this. Look to post war Japan and MacArthur to see the truth in this.
FloridaBill on May 18, 2008 at 8:59 PM
Maverick Muse
I don’t know what you are trying to reference about the appearance of evil comment. Are you saying that what I said was evil or what the soldier did. For what it’s worth I subscribe to Captain Moroni’s Title of Liberty approach. I claim the same rights as the prophet Alma as well and do not recall reading anything about assuring that Lamanites were not offended when the Nephites were defending themselves against assaults on their liberty.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 8:59 PM
Shooting the Koran is a right (as opposed to a privilege). I support the right of a human being to put a bullet into a piece of cellulose that is filled with trash and advocates death to non believers.
This thread should be called the Appeasement Thread.
You people disgust me.
winemkr on May 18, 2008 at 9:00 PM
How about a copy of “The Audacity of Hope”?
Of course, given the picture on drudge of BO addressing a crowd of 75,000, juxtaposed with the various ‘icons’ of BO (IBD cover, or Time or Newsweek or something), well… maybe BO’s book is a holy text after all.
Honestly, I’m growing more concerned with the religious fervor and following of BO. This can’t end well.
Midas on May 18, 2008 at 9:03 PM
Even if fanaticism is minimized (though I don’t agree that it will be) for a while doesn’t change the core ideology of Islam. It is a conquering ideology that has its core the requisite submission of all countries, peoples, philosophies, creeds and religions. It is not compatible with freedom of religion or human rights as recognized in the West. Saying otherwise is hopelessly naive.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 9:05 PM
I’m astonished at the short-sightedness of some of the comments I’m reading tonight. Should we move military offices into all the mosques, maybe, while we’re at it?
Iraqis are, for the most part, Muslims (give or take a half-million or so Chaldeans, hard to know for sure since the war started). Conversion is not on our agenda. Respect for Iraqi religious institutions is a necessary component of our strategy, including our counterinsurgency strategy. If a soldier we’ve trained as a sniper thinks Islam is the problem, he’s in the wrong theatre; and if his judgment isn’t better than that he’s in the wrong profession.
65 years ago, the Nazis stabled their horses in Russian Orthodox churches. The Russians in the small towns are still pissed about it.
Disrespectful. Counterproductive.
DrSteve on May 18, 2008 at 9:06 PM
I was wondering if anyone would mention that.
By doing what they did (although somewhat over-kill) the generals prevented another sh#@storm like Abu Ghraib. Which helped AQI make inroads into Iraq.
F15Mech on May 18, 2008 at 9:08 PM
The apologists behaved as dhimmis; let’s hope it the impression doesn’t stick.
PattyJ on May 18, 2008 at 9:09 PM
I misremembered (Nazis? Horses?). It was Napoleon, 200 years ago. Even more to the point.
DrSteve on May 18, 2008 at 9:10 PM
One of the issues of contention appears to be that some people still believe that Islam is a religion in the same category as Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, etc. It is not. Continuing to pretend that it is on par with other great religions is precisely the point. No such comparison is accurate or fair.
Islam is an ideology that requires its adherents to promote the faith by the sword. I can think of no action more foolish than to show respect for such a hateful and destructive belief system. Continuing to recite the mantra that Islam is “just another faith” is drowning out the sound of the explosions and the cries of those placed in bondage.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 9:11 PM
F15Mech
What makes you so sure that that this won’t be exploited? It just happened and Friday prayers aren’t for five more days.
More to the point isn’t the idea that such an act could be used to promote violence exactly the evidence that Islam is not compatible with freedom of religion.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 9:13 PM
winemakr:
You appear to have imbibed to much of what you ostensibly make.
This isn’t the “Appeasment thread” unless you are advocating a religious war, in which case it is wiser heads prevailing!
Just because YOU are not a muslim (and neither am I) doesn’t mean you cannot respect someone else’s decision to devote him/her self to that practice of religion.
God, sir, is GOD. Even the Koran respects that. The issue, religiously, is the proper way to worship and to which prophet (Christianity calls Jesus “The Son of God”, Mohammed, I believe, calls him a prophet).
While I believe in Jesus - Others took the path of Mohammed. While I disagree with their choice - I respect it!
FloridaBill on May 18, 2008 at 9:14 PM
Yes I do,a better target would of been HilRods
It Takes a Village book!
canopfor on May 18, 2008 at 9:15 PM
Buy/Read Yon’s book for the answer.
I am not sure it wont be exploited, but the apology/actions of the generals go along way to smooth it over rather then a cover up.
F15Mech on May 18, 2008 at 9:16 PM
FloridaBill
I hate to argue with you but I am wondering how far your respect goes. Do you respect the tenets of the faith as well? How about those parts of the Islam regarding jizya and dhimmitude? How about the declarations about non-Muslims as second class citizens? Do you respect that as well? Do you respect the idea that women are chattle?
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 9:18 PM
This is a ridiculous comment. Since when do soldiers have the right to offend an entire country while representing the United States?
And what appeasement? In case you’re too much a bigot to notice, just because they’re Muslims, it doesn’t mean they’re our enemy. These are Iraqi police officers, the same we claim to be helping over there.
Esthier on May 18, 2008 at 9:19 PM
F15Mech
Actually I am less interested in reading one man’s opinion than I am in recalling the past reactions of the Muslim world for my entire life. Each pretended offense has given the Islamists carte blanche to act out. Western societies have given this particular group a complete pass with exactly the kind of multicultural/morally relative nonsense that is espoused by some in this thread.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 9:21 PM
Compelle intrare.
DrSteve on May 18, 2008 at 9:21 PM
Esthier
Actually if the truly espouse the tenets of the Islamic doctrine it does mean they are our enemies. If part of my belief system was to subvert your government and to enslave your family I assume you would consider me an enemy.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 9:22 PM
DrSteve
Did you have a specific point you were making?
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 9:24 PM
While I am at it, I might as well add my two euros’ worth regarding the issue of sharia and the Iraqi and Afghan constitutions.
Modern democracy is the product of millenia of political and social development that extends all the way back to the Greek and Roman governments and includes contributions from Judaeo-Christianity. Perhaps the most important contribution from Christianity is the principle of separation of church and state-a principle to which Islam is directly antithetical.
Frankly the Muslim world has not even progressed as far as England had when the Magna Carta was signed in 1215. That’s several centuries of sociopolitical development that we are trying to drag them through in the space of a few years, but the very principles of Islam are dead-set against us.
I often hear that Israel is the only “functioning democracy” in the Middle East, but there is another one: Turkey. But in order for Turkey to become a democracy, Ataturk had to literally suppress Islam from public life, and even today, some 8 decades after its establishment (longer than Germany and Japan have been democratic), the Turkish military still stands guard, protecting secular Turkey against its own popularly-elected Islamist governments.
If Islam and sharia are still a threat to democracy in Turkey after so many years, what makes anyone think that democracy will work in a land where Islam and sharia are officially recognized and sanctioned? Indeed, we are already seeing the fruits of sharia in Afghanistan and Iraq. But of course, we can’t, we mustn’t, ever acknowledge that the very ideology of Islam is incompatible, since that would force us to make some very un-PC choices regarding how we handle Iraq and Afghanistan.
Fact is, as long as the Islamic ideology is not recognized as the root of the problems-of both terror and democracy-any apparent victory we enjoy will only prove ephemeral.
Lancer on May 18, 2008 at 9:27 PM
It never ceases to amaze me how effectively the idea that the greatest character flaw in society today is that of “insensitivity”. It is amazing how upside down it has made things and how this one idea appears to be more important than right and wrong, more important than truth and freedom, more important than just about anything to a lot of people.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 9:27 PM
Mormon Doc:
Before answering your earlier question, may I ask you one?
Are you Mormon?
I ask this NOT to, in ANY way, disparage you or your choice of Religion.
FloridaBill on May 18, 2008 at 9:28 PM
FloridaBill
I am Mormon - that is to say I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I am convert to the church however. After attending many different churches I had a amazing conversion experience and have been a member ever since.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 9:30 PM
Since they are our allies and are working with us side-by-side, only bigotry would compel a person to conclude that they want to destroy us and start a religious war.
And considering we are the ones who just demolished their country but they sided with us anyway, we’ve significant evidence they’re not out to get us.
Esthier on May 18, 2008 at 9:31 PM
How’s your Latin?
DrSteve on May 18, 2008 at 9:31 PM
Then you recall the other prisoner abuse sh$#storm that occurred. (No because it is did not happen because the US handled it much the same way as this story).
I agree with you about the “pretend offense”. In this case a solider shoot what as viewed by Muslim’s as a holy book. I don’t see that as a “pretend offense”.
If I take a leak in a jar and submerge a cross in it would you be offended?
It is incidents like these the radical Muslims use to inflame other Muslims and soon you have a world wide uproar.
By apologizing to the tibial leaders (I admit the apology was somewhat overkill) it helps diffuse the situation where it occurred, and thus help prevent a world-wide uproar.
At the very least if the tribal leaders accepted the apology there is a good chance that some new insurgents wont be taking shots at US troops in the local area where it occured. Which is also a win in my book.
F15Mech on May 18, 2008 at 9:37 PM
DrSteve
Nevermind. Apparently your point is to use a Latin phrase to demonstrate your amazing intellect. OK. You win. You have the best dictionary. Next.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 9:37 PM
Esthier
Bigotry or an honest reading of their holy text. Just because a snake doesn’t bite you right away doesn’t mean it isn’t a snake.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 9:38 PM
There’s an abandoned quarry outside town where we like to go plinking. We found some shot-up college texts there one time. Constitutional Law was so shredded, we could only tell what it was by what was left of the writing on the spine.
Symbolic in some way?
innominatus on May 18, 2008 at 9:39 PM
By the way, Ed’s source link is CNN. For now, I believe this report about as much as I believe TNR’s Iraq reports.
innominatus on May 18, 2008 at 9:42 PM
Mormon Doc:
I, as a Protestant, am happy you have found a place to be happy!
Personally, I have been to Salt Lake City. I’ve been to “Bee Hive House” and to the Tabernacle. You have joined a different (than mine) Church. But one that has much everyone can learn from (no matter your personal religion).
But, I also know some Muslim Mullahs in Florida, NONE of whom advocate violence and all of whom were HORRIFIED on 9/11.
Let me ask you, bluntly, is it wise to incite one RELIGION (belief system/way of worshiping) against another?
Take a look at the Sunnis and the Shi’a’s (both islamic) before answering.
Lastly, as to the “Religion of the Sword”. Can any of us remember the Crusades?
FloridaBill on May 18, 2008 at 9:43 PM
It’s a rather mischievous expression from the history of the Church.
I wasn’t trying to appear clever, just not woefully ignorant. Sorry for the confusion.
DrSteve on May 18, 2008 at 9:44 PM
F15Mech
I don’t agree. It is their feeling and their book. My countrymen are defending them and helping to stabilize the region. If they can’t be grateful they can at least be quiet.
As long as it is your jar, your urine and your cross then be my guest. That is exactly my point. Freedom isn’t only for some people. It’s for everyone.
If they will be inflamed to kill over something like this then they will use any other excuse that comes down the pike. I don’t believe in moral relativism and I reject the idea that I should. If they are going to kill because I offended their sensibilities then they will never be able to live side by side with me.
I reject the idea that we are required to take action to prevent them from killing people. Such a notion infantilizes the Muslim community and insults the rest of the free world. People must be held to account for the actions. If they cannot control their actions when their sensibilities are offended then something is wrong with them, not with me.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 9:45 PM
Pretty much any of the titles on Oprah’s Book Club list would work for me.
inviolet on May 18, 2008 at 9:46 PM
It never ceases to amaze me how effectively the idea that
the greatest cgaracter flaw in society today is that of
“insensitivity”.
Mormon Doc on May 18,2008 at 9:27PM.
Mormon Doc:
“INSENSITIVITY” You are aware that a Soldier from the
United States of America was shootin up
the Koran in a Muslin country where the
hearts and minds are trying to be won!
My opinion,but that wasn’t the best book
to be utilized as a target,but it was.
The United States are trying to make a
better place for all Iragi’s,to some
Iragi’s and Iranian military goons,it
just doesn’t look or smell good,they
don’t need anymore encouragemet to be
killing American Servicemen,er Service
woman as well!
So,shootin the Koran in a Muslim country
was a lapse of judgement,it really doesn’t
look good in the eyes of the sheep of the
world!
canopfor on May 18, 2008 at 9:47 PM
True but if you can take some action from prevent a snake to bite you in the first place (after a stupid move on another member of your group) would you?
I will now demonstrate my amazing intellect with the following…
F15Mech on May 18, 2008 at 9:48 PM
Mormon Doc:
With all due respect, I call BS!
“Do onto others as you would have them do onto YOU!”
We can go into an “Eye for an Eye” - but that would demean the effort not to get to the point of an “Eye for an Eye”.
Every Religion, every philosophy strives to maintain life for its’ adherents and/or believers!
FloridaBill on May 18, 2008 at 9:54 PM
FloridaBill
Thank you for the kind words
Because there are Muslims that are not violent does nothing to refute the core tenets of the faith. Understanding basic Islamic jurisprudence, the concept of abrogation and the basic history of Islam clearly illustrates the danger of the ideology. It is NOT a religion in the same category as Protestantism. It does not and ultimately will not peacefully coexist with those who do not submit because the doctrines require adherents to spread it by force if necessary. This is wholly different than either your faith or mine. Approaching Islam as though it is some benign system of beliefs like the great religions of the world is not just to miss the point of Islam but is to put oneself in peril. I simply cannot and will not ignore what I have studied, heard and witnessed with my own eyes regarding the objectives of Islam. I also reject that somehow moderate Mullahs represent the larger sentiment that exists in Islam.
You have seen the polls that demonstrate how widespread the sympathy is for suicide bombing and violence in the Muslim community. These are not some bigoted points of view design to dissuade people from attaining spiritual growth. This is genuine concern over a dogma that threatens to kill people or force their conversion.
This isn’t a fight I’ve picked but it’s not one that I will back down from. I feel an obligation to speak out. If I am aware of a threat I feel compelled to share what I see. If a person is in danger from a runaway truck then I will do what I can to help. It is my hope that everyone who doesn’t will recognize the threat before more life is lost.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 9:58 PM
It’s a fight you’re happy to see others pick, and apparently putting a bullet through another believer’s scripture is speaking out?
DrSteve on May 18, 2008 at 10:04 PM
MormonDoc,
It seams to me that your line of thinking is that since Iraqi’s are 90% Muslim, then lets just kill them all.
I thought the Mormon church believed in converting people not killing them all and more or less ignoring them because they are not Mormon (if that is the case why do Mormons knock on my front door from time to time)?
Iraq has Christian Churches, Muslims helped re-open one in fact. (but you are not concerned about that since only man reported it).
Something tells me that it would be easier for your church to knock on Iraqi’s doors/place bibles in their hotels if they were not busy shooting you.
F15Mech on May 18, 2008 at 10:06 PM
How about “The Secret?”
“If you want something hard enough, it happens!”
Bull. Too many people on my list are still alive.
Capitana on May 18, 2008 at 10:07 PM
FloridaBill
You call BS on what? You don’t like the information that I presented so you just reject it? The fact is that you talked about how we must respect this system of beliefs. I asked you about some of the beliefs they espouse that make the doctrine especially dangerous. Do you still think we should respect those?
I say we shouldn’t and explained why. Was your real reaction to say that all of my information is BS or do you think I am lying or have some perverse objective of discrediting Islam. They certainly don’t need my help with that.
You said:
Then by your statement Islam is not a religion. It would be more akin to a death cult.
Look I’m not trying to be argumentative but am trying to explain what I thought about why we shouldn’t and actually mustn’t respect Islam and you said you are calling BS. Your rejection does not negate the statements. And it doesn’t work in practice. At least not for the Israeli’s who deal with suicide bombers and rockets with more frequency than we have rain in Utah. You can decry the evidence but it doesn’t make it any less real. They unfortunately cannot call BS on the perpetrators of a religion bent on their destruction.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 10:11 PM
DrSteve
Are you assuming that I have not served in the military or just that somehow I coerced this young man into taking this action?
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 10:12 PM
Re-posted with corrections
MormonDoc,
It seams to me that your line of thinking is that since Iraqi’s are 90% Muslim, then lets just kill them all.
I thought the Mormon church believed in converting people not killing them all and more or less not ignoring them because they are not Mormon (if that is not the case why do Mormons knock on my front door from time to time)?
Iraq has Christian Churches, Muslims helped re-open one in fact. (but you are not concerned about that since only one man reported it).
Something tells me that it would be easier for your church to knock on Iraqi’s doors/place bibles in their hotels if they were not busy shooting you.
F15Mech on May 18, 2008 at 10:13 PM
Mormon Doc, how many Muslims do you know? Do you think they’re all plotting to kill you right now, or are they more worried about raising their kids, making the mortgage payment and remembering to call ChemLawn out for the ground ivy that reappeared in the back yard?
My Muslim colleagues, friends, and former students worry me less than you do.
DrSteve on May 18, 2008 at 10:14 PM
Actualy the question becomes… if a Religion makes YOU an enemy… when do you figure it out and fight back…
I live in sin with a woman to whom I am not married… my daughter is a Lesbian. I am agnostic at best (non christian) and so, not a “People of the Book”. I eat pork. I own a dog. I’ve made fun of a dark age pedophile named Moh… I’m SOOOOOOO under a death sentence by their religion its funny.
So, this religion says just about everything I believe in is wrong, and I am thus subject to death for it…
Well… does that not make it a religious conflict? And one NOT of my making? I do not say they need to die for their beliefs… but they say I am subject to death for mine.
Romeo13 on May 18, 2008 at 10:17 PM
MormonDoc:
I appreciate your willingness to save me from a runaway truck, and would do the same for you and/or yours. In that respect our beliefs compare.
Unfortuately, I refuse to “Religiously Profile” my/our supposed opponents. I admit that I did, right after 9/11, and I had to eat a little “Humble Pie” for doing so. I lived in Coral Springs, FL (Atta and company lived here for a while) and one of the Imams of the bas7ards was later to become a friend (and I heard about these guys). They were NOT loved in that Mosque!
Having said that, each person is an individual, who makes individual choices. You can take this further into Churches, Temples, and, yes, Mosques and find that EACH is an individual with respect to it’s worldview. I, for one, will NOT say or defend the idea that ALL Mosques and/or believers in Islam are terrorists! There are some, and they SHOULD be targeted and removed!
I’ve got to go to work in the morning, so I’m going to bed soon. I will, however, look up this thread later manana!
Good night and God bless all!
FloridaBill on May 18, 2008 at 10:17 PM
I will see you in hell.
You bring the women, I will bring the liquor.
F15Mech on May 18, 2008 at 10:19 PM
Hmmm… question is how many MIDDLE EASTERN Moslems… those who live there and are not “Americanized” do YOU know.
We are argueing religion from an American veiwpoint and worldview… which is one of the reasons our Politicians don’t understand whats going on… None of them have spent significant time in the Mid East… and so create plans that would work on Americans… not plans that work over there…
The cultural differences are MUCH larger than we in America want to admit.
Romeo13 on May 18, 2008 at 10:21 PM
F15Mech
Really? How do you get that from what I have said. Is there no way in your mind to separate the people from their ideology. I have never proposed such a thing and your assertion is out of place and unwarranted. Such statements are insulting and minimize the serious nature of such a discussion. Would you lead me to believe that you would carry on a debate with someone who advocated the wholesale slaughter of innocent people? Surely I would not attribute something to you so at least a minimal amount of decorum is in order.
I have not brought my faith into this nor should you. This is misleading and does nothing to refute anything that I have said. If you want to have a debate about my faith then we should do it off line. It does not belong here. I very much doubt that anyone in this thread wants a discourse on Mormon theology.
Please don’t declare what I believe. It is difficult to do for anyone given the fact that we don’t know each other well. If you have questions simply pose them. I have nothing to hide and am not leaving things out on purpose. I merely rejected your recommendation to review an individual account rather than relying on a lifetime of experience and many years of personal study.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 10:22 PM
Heck… I’ll be drivin the Bus!
Romeo13 on May 18, 2008 at 10:22 PM
Pope John Paul II kissed a Koran. I didn’t like it, but I’ll give him props as a real Christian….or probably a better one than I anyway (of course that ain’t saying much).
funky chicken on May 18, 2008 at 10:24 PM
Yeah, but when it’s time for shootin’, don’t aim at a book.
funky chicken on May 18, 2008 at 10:26 PM
Save me a seat.
;-)
Yakko77 on May 18, 2008 at 10:26 PM
*plays AC/DC - Highway to Hell*
Yakko77 on May 18, 2008 at 10:27 PM
What could be wrong with offering a lickspittle apology to the officers and nco’s of a supremacist ideology?
Seems some have gone native and Iraqis are gonna be the new best little buddies of America if their “hearts and minds ” can be seduced by whatever it takes.
Good luck with that.
If you want to walk on eggs to still the waters for a gentle exit, that’s one thing, if you think this pathetic behaviour will ingratiate you long term, that is quite another thing again.
Are the Muslims that clever or is the ignorance deliberate?
BL@KBIRD on May 18, 2008 at 10:27 PM
DrSteve
What is the right number of Muslims that I am supposed to know before my concerns become valid? Is the point you are trying to make that if I don’t know a sufficient number of Muslims personally then somehow my analysis of their doctrine and theology is flawed.
I don’t know any staph bacteria but I know how they work and what their intent is. I don’t know any Nazi’s but I know what they believe in and how they seek to accomplish their objectives. I use those examples on purpose because of the dangerous and potentially fatal consequences of ignoring both.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 10:29 PM
Romeo13:
I am going to bed in a few. But.
I have a Lesbian sister, whom I adore. I can only accept the fact that she is doing what she feel is right, in her life. I cannot change her, only SHE can change herself!
With regards to religion AND its’ practicioners; Respect - ON BOTH SIDES - goes a long way in preventing warfare!
My best to all, Good night!
FloridaBill on May 18, 2008 at 10:30 PM
…If you have questions simply pose them
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 10:22 PM
F15Mech on May 18, 2008 at 10:32 PM
Shoulda flushed it.
malan89 on May 18, 2008 at 10:32 PM
Ah, but MormonDoc, they know you very, very well :-). They say you are an excellent host!
funky chicken on May 18, 2008 at 10:35 PM
Soldier in Baumholder, Germany: ‘Hey you Nazi BASTAD! I said gimme a beer!’
Marine in Seoul, South Korea: ‘Hey you kimshee eating BASTAD! I said gimme a beer!’
Sailor in Sydney, Australia: ‘Hey you kangaroo humping BASTAD! I said gimme a beer!’
Airman in Kure, Japan: ‘Hey you Emperor worshiping pagan BASTAD! I said gimme a beer!’
They all would get what they get…..stomped on by the U.S. military….and rightly so.
This thread is nuts. We are making enemies of each other because it is about ISLAM and not about what the actions of the soldier were. He was disciplined and the military apologize because he was a frakking bonehead.
Limerick on May 18, 2008 at 10:35 PM
I DO NOT RESPECT organized religion, and I never will, so help me god.
Semper Fi
PS
I have never relied on a deity to bail me out.
winemkr on May 18, 2008 at 10:36 PM
Shoulda flushed it.
malan89 on May 18,2008 at 10:32PM.
malan89: Before or after?
or accidently of course,HE HE :)
canopfor on May 18, 2008 at 10:36 PM
Summary, thy name is Limerick!!!
FloridaBill on May 18, 2008 at 10:37 PM
Except on this thread you have people getting angry because the military apologized.
F15Mech on May 18, 2008 at 10:41 PM
frakking bonehead..
Limerick on May 18,2008 at 10:35PM.
Limerick: Yer on a roll,and so logical,why is it
ye makes so much sense,me jus sayin! :), :)!
canopfor on May 18, 2008 at 10:41 PM
Beer clarifies the vision (but doesn’t help the spel’n).
Limerick on May 18, 2008 at 10:42 PM
Would the military apologize to the bar tenders in Germany, sSouth Korea, Australia, and Japan?
Limerick on May 18, 2008 at 10:43 PM
BTW I once resembled that remark.
F15Mech on May 18, 2008 at 10:43 PM
Beer clarifies the vision(but doesn’t help the spel’n).
Limerick on May 18,2008 at 10:42PM.
Limerick: Yup,let it be said,so shall it be written! :)
canopfor on May 18, 2008 at 10:45 PM
While the Marines did in Italy
I was not allowed beer in Saudi so I never meet a bar tender to insult there.
F15Mech on May 18, 2008 at 10:48 PM
F15Mech
Of course it was ill advised and no doubt put his unit in greater jeopardy because of reprisals. But isn’t that the very point I have been making this entire thread. We are fighting a supremacist ideology that does not allow such expressions.
This is not a religion we are opposing it is a system of beliefs that claims supremacy above all other beliefs and as such regards any desecration as an assault on the faith. The fact is that the reason it is ill advised to shoot a Koran has nothing to do sensitivity and everything to do with the way we have lied to ourselves about what Islam is and how we have fooled ourselves into believing that we can coexist in equality adherents of the doctrine.
To take it a step further, if it had been a Muslim soldier who shot up a Bible would the Iraqis need to be in fear that Americans would demonstrate in the street, destroy Iraqi businesses, kill Iraqi citizens regardless of religion? Of course not. We don’t do that and Americans would never tolerate such a thing. The perpetrators (if any) would be small groups who would be captured and prosecuted. In fact, many in the West would hail such an act of free expression and the courage it took to stand up to the Christian crusaders.
I would have said nothing and I most assuredly would not have kissed a Koran and given it as a peace offering. I would have used the opportunity as a teaching moment about the cost of freedom and how freedom means everyone is free - not just Muslims. Would any of Muslims have heeded my words. I don’t know. Probably not. But that doesn’t make the truth any less valid. We stand up for principles not because it is expedient or easy or fun. We stand up for them because they guide our lives and shape our decisions and because we ultimately recognize that human life is sacred where as a written document, no matter how important, is never more valuable than life. I could not pretend otherwise because I really believe that Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were divinely inspired. If our beliefs are so easily tucked away or sacrificed at the altar of sensitivity then do we really believe them?
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 10:49 PM
funky chicken
They find me delicious.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 10:49 PM
Limerick
Ah yes. Nothing more fitting than boiling down a complex ideological debate into a request for beer and its geopolitical complexities. The parallels are so striking.
On one hand you have an entrenched set of beliefs focused on enslaving or murdering those who reject it, while on the other hand you have bigoted comments.
It’s got a great beat but it’s a little hard to dance to.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 10:56 PM
hey winemkr, Bill is just another we’ll have to save in the end.
When will they learn…….
jerrytbg on May 18, 2008 at 10:58 PM
Not under any circumstances.
Do we know for sure that the soldier(s) wanted Iraqi’s to find it?
Malevolence as well as stupidity? Both? I think malevolence is a very long reach and in any case malevolence and stupidity are rather hard to join together in one act.
Maybe the soldier(s) don’t like fighting for lunatics, even those that are some varying degrees less lunatic than the others.
MB4 on May 18, 2008 at 11:00 PM
I eagerly await Islam’s apology, and a kiss to all other holy books, for fourteen centuries of evil.
Then, I might view our reaction as appropriate.
Hawkins1701 on May 18, 2008 at 11:04 PM
Mailers from the RNC looking for donations….talk about folks who need to hold an apology ceremony…
Horatius on May 18, 2008 at 11:05 PM
There is no complex ideological debate. The bonehead did boneheadedness, that’s it.
You might want to make this ‘I think, there I am’ but it isn’t and you can pull Abraham right out of the clouds to chastise me all you want but the kid was still a bonehead.
Limerick on May 18, 2008 at 11:06 PM
The inconvenient truth is that the West should be exporting secularism around the world before it exports democracy. Democracy implies not just one person one vote, but no less important, that the political process proceeds by rational means, by argument, by persuasion, and is based on knowledge that is as objective, as scientific, as one can make it. The objective knowledge has to come first.
- Peter Watson
MB4 on May 18, 2008 at 11:06 PM
That fits with my long standing contention that they are hard core, enablers or consenters. Period.
jerrytbg on May 18, 2008 at 11:10 PM
Better not let Bush hear you say that as he has a very different view.
Actually what I say is you’re not a religious person if you’re a murderer, but you’re right, I’ve got to do a better job of making it clear when I talk about Islam I talk about a peaceful religion, which I talk about a lot.
- George W. Bush
MB4 on May 18, 2008 at 11:11 PM
You are so on the money. Military members are given ROE regarding killing these people, but god forbid they insult them first. Ridiculous. Period. Having a two star general kiss the ass of a people we crushed in battle is the result of political correctness run wild. Cn you imagine Patton kissing German ass because some soldier insulted them. WTFO? This is the reason I will be retiring from military service as soon as I am eligible. The US military is no longer a fighting force. It is an extension of the state department. Our Generals focus more on diplomacy and politics than finding and destroying our enemies. It is disgusting. The military should be a large, vicious dog on a short leash controlled by the President. Let the State Department do the talking. The military should focus on killing people and breaking things (within the Laws of War, of course).
jwp1964 on May 18, 2008 at 11:14 PM
Limerick
I have no idea what that was supposed to mean. My point was that we have been discussing this subject for an hour and it is tad more complex than ordering a beer and using a pejorative. If you think they are the same then I recommend reading some of Robert Spencer’s work.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 11:14 PM
How did we ever get into this fix where a U.S. Army General has to humble and all but prostrate himself to Islam and kiss what is very arguably the most evil book in the world?
Oh, I remember now.
MB4 on May 18, 2008 at 11:15 PM
and the fellas that translate for my son when he is out on patrol….or the fella that points to the house where the shots came from? Think they might be offended. Think they might be wondering if more crosshairs might land on their back, or their family members backs?
There ARE Iraqi’s who stick their necks out for us. But screw them, right? Leave em. Let em rot. Ain’t my problem, right?
Screw that.
Limerick on May 18, 2008 at 11:15 PM
Limerick
I don’t know that anyone has condemned Iraqis and any attempt to conflate nationality with religion is a mistake. Islam knows no nationality and subjugates everyone. Anyone who believes in the supremacy of Islam over all people is suspect.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 11:18 PM
I do believe that Islam is evil, and the sooner the 1+ billion oppressed humans are released from its power, the better.
.
This world has seen countless failed “religions”. This one is no different. Its time has run out. The would has passed it by. There is nothing sacred about the koran, except as portrayed in the political mindgames of the perpetually offended. Its a tool used to oppress the weak. It is our responsibility to rid the earth of this ideological disease. End of story.
.
Note that I am not in favor of killing anyone. I am in favor of liberating.
AZCON on May 18, 2008 at 11:19 PM
I’ll make sure my son knows to only choose secular translators from now on.
Limerick on May 18, 2008 at 11:20 PM
ummmm…..Then I suppose I’m reading too much into Mr. Spencers work…possible…maybe…
jerrytbg on May 18, 2008 at 11:20 PM
NOT!!!
jerrytbg on May 18, 2008 at 11:22 PM
Are we so naive that many of us still view the Koran as just another religion’s holy book? This sounds argumentative but I’m not trying to be. I believe having a common understanding is important. Those who believe that Islam is on par with the world’s great peaceful religions please let me know why.
I am open to consider that my opinions about Islam may have flaws so I am open to arguments to the contrary. I should note that I would be happy to hear arguments that contradicts what I have said unless of course it boils down to “You are full of BS.”
For the record I may be full of BS but that’s not a very persuasive argument and doesn’t exactly help me reshape my opinion.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 11:25 PM
As I said, how did we ever get into this fix (damned if you do, damned if you don’t)?
MB4 on May 18, 2008 at 11:27 PM
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