He should have used Battlefield Earth
posted at 5:52 pm on May 18, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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The US military apologized, and rather profusely, for the actions of one soldier who used a Koran for target practice in a suburb of Baghdad. How big of an apology did tribal leaders from Radhwaniya receive from Major General Jeffrey Hammond? Hammond presented them with a new copy of the book, freshly kissed by another military official, and pronouced himself humbled:
A soldier used the Quran — Islam’s holy book — for target practice, forcing the chief U.S. commander in Baghdad to issue a formal apology on Saturday. ….
“I come before you here seeking your forgiveness,” Hammond said to tribal leaders and others at the apology ceremony. “In the most humble manner I look in your eyes today and I say please forgive me and my soldiers.”
Another military official kissed a Quran and presented it as “a humble gift” to the tribal leaders.
The soldier claimed that he didn’t know the book was the Koran, which seems a little hard to believe. Someone wrote an expletive in the book and it had been shot several times. Iraqis found it later when the military snipers left the police shooting range in Radhwaniya, complete with a target drawn on it.
The apology was necessary, says Robert Spencer of Jihad Watch, but overdone:
If he knew what the book was, the soldier was stupid, because even if it is true that the Qur’an contains mandates for violence against unbelievers, and it is true, doing something like this will only turn into enemies some people who might otherwise not be your enemies. This is not the same thing as the Dinesh D’Souza argument that we must not speak about the elements of Islam that jihadists use to justify violence and supremacism, because doing so will turn “moderates” into “extremists” — D’Souza in that is asking us to ignore and deny the truth, which is never an effective strategy in wartime or peacetime. But that is not the same thing as avoiding unnecessary provocation that will require you to fight battles that you otherwise would not have to fight. …
The reactions of Major General Hammond and his staff were understandable, but excessive. They don’t want to alienate people they believe they have won over, or whom they hope to win over, in Baghdad. They had to disavow this soldier’s action. However, kissing the Qur’an and begging for forgiveness — and holding an apology “ceremony” in the first place — are gestures that spring from a misunderstanding of how they are likely to be perceived by the “tribal leaders and others at the apology ceremony.”
Major General Hammond is anxious to show that the U.S. is not at war with Islam. Fine. But to kiss the Qur’an and to beg for forgiveness are signs that one accepts its authority and the authority of those before whom one is begging. Coming from non-Muslims, it is likely that they will be interpreted as gestures of submission, and the submission of non-Muslims to Muslims is a significant concept in Islamic law — although I am sure Major General Hammond and his staff are unaware of this. Given that, is it wise to be giving such impressions? Are such impressions not likely to create even more tension in the future?
Shooting a Koran for target practice is simply a stupid thing to do under any circumstances. Doing it in an Iraqi police shooting range and leaving it behind for the Iraqis to find is more than just stupid, it’s a deliberate insult to the people we want to trust us. That shows a real malevolence rather than just thoughtlessness, and almost a desire to undermine the hard work done by the American military in getting the Sunni tribes to align themselves with the US against their more lunatic co-religionists.
I understand what Robert says about the impression of submission and agree with him, but General Hammond has to walk a tightrope in Radhwaniya. He needs to make an apology that shows real remorse and appreciation for the disrespect shown to the Iraqis by his soldier, and I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt as to how best to express it. If the Iraqis received the impression that Robert explains in his excellent post, it will only exist in reality in their minds, and burdens Hammond not at all. Hammond also has to consider the difficult position into which this puts the tribal leaders who threw their lot in with the US among their own people; they need a strong expression of humility to salvage their own standing.
In the future, let’s hope American soldiers pick better titles for target practice. I’d suggest anything by V.C. Andrews or Karl Marx. Do HA readers have any suggestions?
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How about some of Gore Vidal’s stuff?
surrounded on May 18, 2008 at 5:57 PM
The soldier was a fool and endangered his buddies. He should have known better and I guess does now.
The general has to live with a city with every man holding an AK-47 and almost every house having a hidden RPG. He did the right thing.
bnelson44 on May 18, 2008 at 5:58 PM
Political correctness runs wild…
These Soldiers are getting shot at by Islamists using this book for justification… I can understand why some of them would have some less than charitable feelings towards this book.
Smart? no… but we once again cave to THEIR sensibilites, while putting our own on hold. We allow them to make ANY possible insult a huge event… instead of just telling them to pack sand. As long as we cater to this culture of outrage, it will continue to give them the impression that they are correct… that we are caving…
Romeo13 on May 18, 2008 at 6:02 PM
I myself would like to shoot up One Fish, Two Fish, Red Fish, Blue Fish, but that’s more out of frustration of repetition reading than any malice towards the actual contents of the book.
I’m actually not too fond of using books as target practice, no matter the contents. Books are meant to be read. I’m glad there was an apology (I agree it was a bit over the top though), and the person/people responsible should be horsewhipped. I mean, how stupid can one be… unless the soldier did this deliberately - and then he deserves more than just a smack upside the head.
the goddess anna on May 18, 2008 at 6:02 PM
Does Paul Krugman have anything in print?
Theworldisnotenough on May 18, 2008 at 6:03 PM
Stupid move. But keep in mind this is only on person exercising poor judgement.
Hog Wild on May 18, 2008 at 6:04 PM
They can shoot my copy of “Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull” on DVD.
…of course they’ll have to wait until June 15th, 2008 when it’s to be realesed on home video.
regal on May 18, 2008 at 6:05 PM
As usual, Ed, your commentary is first-rate.
The first better title for target practice that springs to mind, after Das Kapital, is An Inconvenient Truth.
petefrt on May 18, 2008 at 6:06 PM
Each act of contrition connected with desecrating this paper and ink is a small step toward forfeiting our own freedoms. The idea that we would be sacrificing our blood and treasure to expand and protect American ideals and then to behave in a way that undercuts those very ideals strikes me as schizophrenic. If the desecration of this book will turn moderates into jihadists then I submit they would have eventually found another reason to radicalize.
It is important not only to reject the anger connected with this soldiers act but to go further and embrace the symbolism of the act. The document contains directives for subjugating and murdering our wives and children. Accepting such a document as not only legitimate but somehow “holy” is absurd.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 6:08 PM
The Rev Wright’s Trumpet magazine.
mred on May 18, 2008 at 6:09 PM
I never thought about using a book for target practice, but now that I am thinking about it, a big thick phone book might be fun. Mainly because my grandson loves to keep the “target” as a souvenir, and that would be a pretty dramatic one!
Shooting a book because I disagree with its contents … no way. I draw a line at symbolism that powerful.
RushBaby on May 18, 2008 at 6:09 PM
Nice going jackass. Now people are going to die because of this. Their blood will be on your hands.
SoulGlo on May 18, 2008 at 6:10 PM
I have yet to see a legitimate reason for apologizing for this act let alone a justification for accepting the Koran as a “holy book”. This document describes the way in which nonbelievers should be conquered/killed/subjugated. Doesn’t that bother anyone?
THE SOLDIER WAS RIGHT!
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 6:12 PM
Two words:
Deep shit.
Ortzinator on May 18, 2008 at 6:13 PM
If he’s set on shooting a religious book, he could shoot a Bible.
Not only is it unlikely he’d get in trouble, the ACLU would be on his side for the soldier expressing his beliefs.
And what could Christians do? It’s not like they’ll kill anyone :P
apollyonbob on May 18, 2008 at 6:14 PM
Spencer’s point is well taken. Will we ever learn that understanding the enemy is crucial to success? It would make winning a lot easier.
How could a soldier get away with using a Koran for target practice? Wouldn’t that require several people being deceived or looking the other way? Isn’t there a supervising officer and/or senior instructor on sight during target practice?
Exit question: What are the odds this was a setup and the damaged Koran was a plant?
Perfesser on May 18, 2008 at 6:15 PM
New Testament, Book of Mormon, Koran, doesn’t matter a bit.
The bonehead would have been hauled over the carpet for using any of those books. Horseplay happens, but when you are in uniform horseplay can get you in a world of trouble. Granted, the fact that it was a Koran resulted in a grand public apology, but hey, the bonehead new better. All the troops receive training in the do’s and don’ts.
We have all seen them, in the service, or in your workplace…..boneheads.
Limerick on May 18, 2008 at 6:16 PM
Time, Newsweek, The NYT, books by Danielle Steele, O magazines, movies by Oliver Stone…
But, yeah, I’m tired of kissing islam’s ass evertime they’re offended. I say give the soldier a promotion, but I’m a “culturally deficient” American…I guess.
SouthernGent on May 18, 2008 at 6:17 PM
What a surprise - yet another scoop goes uncredited …
corona on May 18, 2008 at 6:18 PM
Hmmm… could you imagine ANYTHING being said if a WWII GI had shot Mein Kampf? or a book on Shinto?
Romeo13 on May 18, 2008 at 6:21 PM
Limerick
Do you mean in Iraq or in any location? I don’t see how it would have been a problem or made the news if the so-called holy book was anything other than a Koran.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 6:21 PM
Deliberately inflaming religious passions does nothing for our war effort. We need to work with the Iraqis if we’re going to create a stable enough environment in Iraq to bring our boys home safely. Like it or not, that means we need show them some respect.
RightOFLeft on May 18, 2008 at 6:25 PM
The Audacity of Hope
Kini on May 18, 2008 at 6:27 PM
We’re trying to win these guys over. Shooting at their religious book isn’t going to help. It’ll push some in the other direction.
Didn’t the guy have access to Gore’s Earth in the Balance?
rbj on May 18, 2008 at 6:28 PM
Ed
I agree with you 100%.
Robert Spencer on May 18, 2008 at 6:29 PM
RightOFLeft
I refuse to respect any document that outlines the submission and enslavement of my fellow countrymen. I don’t disagree with you that we should respect the Iraqi people but how can I or any American pretend to respect a document that is cornerstone of the efforts designed to murder our family and friends.
If it is inflammatory to symbolize the destruction of an ideology that is damaging to all of civilization then count me in.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 6:31 PM
I like how he doesn’t admit that it was just an abhorrent thing to do in the first place. It’s just “ohhh its bad cause we may have to fight more people”.
crr6 on May 18, 2008 at 6:32 PM
rbj
Isn’t the logical conclusion of your statement that we are to blame for the violence perpetrated against us for not being sensitive enough?
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 6:33 PM
how about Audacity of Hope
Defector01 on May 18, 2008 at 6:34 PM
Theres a key concept in the cultural worldview of the Middle East that Americans miss.
In America, we no longer celebrate, or recognize, strength. Whether its Code Pinkos, or other whackos, its the Volume that they show, and the media attention that is important.
In the Middle East, strength is admired, and its VERY normal in their culture to join the “strong horse”… or the one who appears to be stronger. Appearance of strength is very important, whether its military or cultural strength.
When we bow to their outrage, we are showing that their culture is superior… otherwise we would not be applogizing, which THEY see as a sign of weakness…. in the Middle East you don’t appologize when your winning…
When we appologize for the excercise of freedom of speech in cartoons because they are rioting… we loose face. We show weakness…
What we should be doing is ridiculing the heck out of their outrage… not appologizing for things which if done to somthing Western, would not even make the news.
Romeo13 on May 18, 2008 at 6:34 PM
Just when it seemed like the people of Iraq were working together with the Americans this brainless act occurs. This story has most likely spread like wild fire through Iraq. Its is blasphemy to desecrate the Koran to the Muslims, even when one does not believe in another’s faith, respect should be given. Trust must be obtained in Iraq for victory and peace among the Iraqi people.
Tobias2012 on May 18, 2008 at 6:34 PM
Shooting Korans for target practice should be formal policy. Since when is groveling to the enemy a good thing? He kissed the Koran and begged for forgiveness?
Patton is rolling over in his grave.
Jaynie59 on May 18, 2008 at 6:35 PM
Yes it was a foolish thing to do. However, I could not disagree more with Robert Spencer. We cannot coddle their hypersensitivity. Until artists can display “works of art” in downtown Mecca showing Muhammad smeared with pig feces without fear of violence, then these guys or nut-jobs that need serious behavior and attitude adjustment.
Instead of giving the town muckity-mucks a new freshly kissed Koran and an apology, we should have given them nothing more than a big fat, “GET OVER IT.” To do otherwise is to embolden extremism.
tommylotto on May 18, 2008 at 6:37 PM
I don’t know when the destruction of documents intent on my enslavement fell out of fashion but apparently it has happened. I must have missed a memo.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 6:38 PM
I’d be awfully surprised if that soldier, along with everyone else in his unit, hasn’t had to endure briefings about not doing stupid things that’ll piss off the people we’re trying to win over. Going ahead and doing it anyway is willful disregard.
At the end of the article, it says that the culprit will be redeployed back to the States. So he’ll be safe, but the rest of his unit doesn’t have that option.
ReubenJCogburn on May 18, 2008 at 6:38 PM
Mormon Doc, deliberately insulting the people of the country you are in is no way to win them over to your side. I take it you are a Mormon, so what would you think of someone who shot at The Book of Mormon. Are you more likely or less likely to have a favorable view of that person.
And I’m not concerned about the terrorists, but rather the average Iraqi citizen, whom I’d like to have on our side.
rbj on May 18, 2008 at 6:39 PM
I still have not heard any explanation for why this was a bad thing other than it was insensitive. Is there another argument or is that the entire reason for condemning this soldier’s act. If it is then we have already given in to the liberal idea that feelings are more important than truth, rights and freedom.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 6:40 PM
Ah, well. Anytime a general has to kowtow publicly like that, you can guarantee that the soldier involved will be peeling spuds and cleaning latrines until the end of his enlistment.
piraticalbob on May 18, 2008 at 6:41 PM
You have to be pragmatic sometimes in your life. This is a Holy Book to them. I believe Islam can be reformed in the light of democracy, or what the HELL are we doing in Iraq? If every Muslim is doomed to be a murderous thug, we should’ve captured Saddam, secured the oil in the South, and just let the rest of the country go to hell. Because what is the point?
And if we assume that, we should be working with the Iraqis so that they can have a pride in themselves and in their country - and that means not stomping all over their beliefs and then just rubbing their noses in the fact that they can’t DO anything about it without taking up arms!
Look at it this way MormonDoc - if a some guy from another country went to the Deep South™, and in the middle of a town square lit a Bible on fire, and pissed on it, you wouldn’t be shocked to learn he was hospitalized. And the townsfolk wouldn’t have kicked the crap out of the guy because of the theology in the Bible (the Bible preaching the exact opposite) - they would’ve kicked the crap out of a non-Christian disrespecting their most sacred beliefs.
The necessity of the US Army apologizing isn’t because the Koran is some awesome book, or incredibly well written, or because the Koran is right. It has nothing to do with what’s IN the Koran, and everything to do with how Iraqis VIEW the Koran.
Victory first, reformation second, or we may lose both.
apollyonbob on May 18, 2008 at 6:41 PM
Mormon Doc:
It is not about respecting the book, it is about not getting a bunch of people killed…especially if those people could be our own soldiers. It was just dumb.
Terrye on May 18, 2008 at 6:41 PM
Probably not the smartest thing to do..But, after all, it is just a book…Had it been the very first copy ever printed,…well, that would have been a different story. Definitely shouldn’t have left it there for someone to find..
Ben Here on May 18, 2008 at 6:45 PM
rbj
If there was someone risking his life to defend me from murderers and the book was not my property I really don’t see how it would be my business. But that is one of the many and fundamental differences between my faith and Islam.
It is anathema for me to require anyone to respect or believe in my faith. Surely with all that has been written on HA about Mormons you can see that I take no offense. That is because I believe fundamentally in freedom. Simply because someone does not believe in my faith or even desecrates a copy of my holy book does not diminish that belief in the slightest.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 6:45 PM
Islam is not inherently evil, and the Iraqis are proving it every day they fight side-by-side with Christians to save their country. That deserves some acknowledgment.
RightOFLeft on May 18, 2008 at 6:47 PM
apollyonbob on May 18, 2008 at 6:41 PM
Well said apolly,
Tobias2012 on May 18, 2008 at 6:50 PM
Or “Earth in the Balance”
Branch Rickey on May 18, 2008 at 6:52 PM
apollyonbob
From your statement it appears as if you believe it is sensitivity first, then victory.
I disagree with your idea about reforming Islam. From the research that I have done, the Koran would have to be fundamentally altered in order for it to take place and the majority of Islmaic jurisprudence would have to be disregarded. I have seen no movement in that in my lifetime and in fact just the opposite.
The book is fundamentally an ideological plan to subjugate all people. This is not sustainable with Western ideas of freedom. You say it is insulting to the Iraqi people to see the book destroyed. I say it is insulting to me to expect me to respect a book that calls for my conversion or dhimmitude.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 6:53 PM
RightOFLeft on May 18, 2008 at 6:54 PM
ROFL!
Branch Rickey on May 18, 2008 at 6:54 PM
RightOFLeft
I disagree.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 6:55 PM
oops, comment got tagged out… should’ve read-
applause
RightOFLeft on May 18, 2008 at 6:55 PM
My wife just made dinner. I am off to eat. I appreciate those who took the time to respond to me.
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 6:56 PM
I can truthfully say that I have never used any book for target pratcice. I respect books too much, and there is no book so ‘bad’ that it has nothing to offer, even if all you get out of it is an uneasy feeling. Which I get from reading Paul Ehrlich’s The Population Bomb- the uneasy feeling that Dr. Ehrlich regards most of humanity as expendable. Or even unintended amusement; a good source for this is anything written by Shirley MacClaine, in this or any of her previous incarnations. Also Iacocca, which is a masterpiece of self-aggrandizement that is hilarious for how badly written it actually is. (Even P.J. O’Rourke noticed.)
That said, I did once consider using a Time magazine cover photo of Jimmy Carter for a dartboard. But then I remembered that he was once President- so he at least deserves respect for that. (Sort of, considering how incompetent he was.) Out of respect for the office, I didn’t do it. (His book Everything to Gain; Making the Most of the Rest of Your Life, by the way, deserves to be read- for exactly the same reason as Iacocca.)
Being an adult isn’t easy, but I firmly believe that most people of voting age should at least give it a try.
cheers
eon
eon on May 18, 2008 at 6:58 PM
Sure Ed…. you take all the really good ones.
Alright, I’ll have to settle for this.
Maxx on May 18, 2008 at 7:00 PM
I can picture if WWII took place in our PC world. Soldiers occupying Germany are punished for disrespecting Mein Kampf, officers kissing it and handing out a copy to a local Nazi party leader.
It’s a big no-no to disrespect other people’s beliefs.
Aristotle on May 18, 2008 at 7:01 PM
Me too.
Maxx on May 18, 2008 at 7:03 PM
Over the last five years, there’ve been thousands of Iraqi Muslims that have risked their lives, and lost their lives, to help us establish a stable democratic Iraq, and they deserve at least the respect of not desecrating their most sacred book. It would be one thing if we didn’t need the help of any Muslims, but in this case we’ll never succeed without their help.
RBMN on May 18, 2008 at 7:04 PM
Bravo!!!! Bravo!!!! Bravo!!!!
Branch Rickey on May 18, 2008 at 7:05 PM
anything by Al Fraken
JKotthoff on May 18, 2008 at 7:07 PM
1. The Koran and Democracy can not coexist. They are mutually exclusive.
2. They didn’t risk thei lives for a “Democratic Iraq”. They are just Muslims being Muslims, killing each other for smallest differences. Iraqi sec. forces just did that because their clan heads thought being in the official army will be more of an advantage for their sectarian goals. There was a mess before Saddam and there will be a mess after the last US trooper leaves. It’s the Middle East, baby.
Aristotle on May 18, 2008 at 7:13 PM
So it’s better to be right, and lose?
Yeah, that’s not for me. Thousands of Americans have died fighting to bring stability and peace to Iraq, and democracy to a region that has not seen true representative democracy in recorded history. We’re talking about changing five THOUSAND years of human history in FIVE years - I’m not talking about sensitivity before victory, I’m talking about baby steps on the road to reformation. We’ll get the Iraqis to being okay with Mohammed dipped in urine, don’t worry - but it’ll take a little time, you know? In the meanwhile, lets avoid invalidating everything our soldiers tell the Iraqis and creating enemies for NOTHING.
I mean what’re we talking about here? We’re not talking about a soldier shooting that sonuvabitch that murdered his daughter “for honor.” (Though I kinda wish we were.) We’re talking about someone shooting a Koran. It’s MEANINGLESS. Its not worth people getting killed over.
So yeah, I mean, I’m not saying YOU have to respect the Koran - and nobody’s talking about forcing anyone to respect the Koran. But there’s a time and a place to publicly disrespect the holiest icons of a people - in the middle of a war zone while you’re trying to get those people on YOUR side is not that time or place.
And seriously, if you don’t think we can ever turn Iraq into a secular democracy, what’s your justification for us staying there?
apollyonbob on May 18, 2008 at 7:14 PM
Damn it looks like it lost my other post.
What’s your justification for us staying in Iraq if we can’t turn it into a democracy?
apollyonbob on May 18, 2008 at 7:15 PM
The Muslim world may not be at the cutting edge of state-of-the-art telecommuincations technology, but they have learned to use it well for propaganda.
The military was no doubt reacting based on all the problems (including several deaths) cause by the false Newsweek story about U.S. soldiers flushing a Koran down a toilet at Gitmo. The story caused riots in several parts of the Muslim world before the truth finally came out that you can’t flush any book that size down a toilet (Newsweek must only use outhouses or port-a-potties at their 57th Street office, and were unable to figure that out for themselves), and it’s still taken as a point of fact by U.S. opponents in those areas that it did happen. Based on that, and the fact that the shooting at the Koran really did occur, the military wanted to get ahead of the story on this, before some news outlet discovered the problem and made it a bigger story than the earthquake in China or the flooding in Burma.
jon1979 on May 18, 2008 at 7:16 PM
And there must be cases of unsold Noam Chomsky rags we could send over if the troops need target practice.
AZCON on May 18, 2008 at 7:20 PM
Uh… not sure what America your living in… but if someone took a Bible and torched it and pissed on it in the middle of a Southern Town? There would be no violence.
Just like the guy who cut down the Mexican flag… and was then PROSECUTED for it… any violence would be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law… if it even happened (which I highly doubt).
They riot because they can… and its even encouraged by their governments. They feel strong because we give way to THEIR “sensitivitys”… and do not bother to stand up for our own. We are so worried about “hurting feelings” that we are no longer seen as strong… which invites MORE Jihadists…
You have it exactly backwards… win the war through strength, and show that we are strong in spite of our “cultural depravity”….
Every time we bow to THEIR outrage, we encourage MORE Jihadists.
Go read Bin Laden’s writings sometime… they are very enlightening.
Romeo13 on May 18, 2008 at 7:24 PM
“Going Places” by E. D. Hill - Okay, E. D. just annoys me really.
“Democrat National Committee Platform for their Convention” - that’s gotta be thousands of windbag elitists crap thus the pages of the platform should hold a slug.
“Angela’s Ashes” - but again the thickness of it (in the density of it’s pages and derogatory metaphors would hold the slug. Okay, you guessed it again, the McCourt Commie Brothers annoy me.
Wait is this like a rhorstack (sp) test by chance? hehe
Branch Rickey on May 18, 2008 at 7:26 PM
I suggest they use “the audacity of hope” by that marxist boy for target practice.
elduende on May 18, 2008 at 7:26 PM
Shooting a book? Give me a brake…….
Seven Percent Solution on May 18, 2008 at 7:30 PM
i still do not understand the rabid denial amongst some of our readers about the decree of violence towards non Muslims in Islam.
blatantblue on May 18, 2008 at 7:31 PM
Since when putting Democracy in every corner of the Earth is the strategy? Have we turned Communists, trying to spread an ideological system of govern?
There is always the possibility to turn Iraq into a stable dictatorship like Egypt, “moderate” Islamic mullahship or a pseudo-democracy like Pakistan. But probably it would also take partitioning Iraq into mostly Sunni, mustly Shi’a and mostly Kurd separate states.
Aristotle on May 18, 2008 at 7:32 PM
Why are we wasting ammunition shooting books?
My collie says:
Bad dog. Don’t flame me bro. The dog was only kidding.
CyberCipher on May 18, 2008 at 7:33 PM
Ps. When i wrote “stable dictatorship like Egypt”, i didn’t mean stable-stable. Just stable. Until the Muslim Brotherhood makes it unstable.
Aristotle on May 18, 2008 at 7:34 PM
He was at a station in the city? I spent time at one such station. You can’t fire any rounds whatsoever without calling them in immediately afterwards. If you’re not in immediate danger, you usually have to call in beforehand. Target practice (usually just to set your battle sight zero) is scheduled and coordinated, usually by a warrant officer. Obviously some wrong must have been done, but as usual I’m sure it is blown wildly out of proportion.
Obligatory caveat: desecrating a Koran to insult our allies is wrong, and everyone in theater is briefed extensively on acting respectfully. There are no excuses for disobeying this mandate.
joewm315 on May 18, 2008 at 7:44 PM
The Obama campaign would immediately issue a press release that this was an unwarranted attack on his economic policies.
Nosferightu on May 18, 2008 at 7:47 PM
You’re in the wrong year. This isn’t 2003. We won that war.
This isn’t 2005, with an insurgency in full swing.
This is 2007. The insurgency is dying. AQI is dying. The militias are being taken in hand by Maliki.
We showed the Iraqis EXACTLY who the “strong horse” is. We showed them that we are not womanized, we’re not effete, we’re not ineffectual. We showed them that we are the baddest badasses around, and that we are the most powerful fighting force on the planet.
The point is that now, victory is turning Iraq into a stable functioning democracy. Does letting our soldiers shoot up their holiest book help us achieve that goal? No.
By the way:
And I’m living in actual real America. And trust me, I know a few people who would bring violence if they saw what I mentioned. I used the deep south as a reference only because there’s a larger concentration of guys who’d get super pissed at that kind of thing. I’m not saying that there’d be riots or thousands would be involved - it only takes one guy to beat someone up. And if you think there’d be zero violence, none what so ever, YOU’RE the one not living in the real world.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ky7SVILAcAU
I’m not making a generalization. I’m saying that if that happened and the guy did end up hospitalized, you would not be surprised. That’s what I wrote. And clearly, the context of what I wrote was that it was to illustrate that its not whats in the Koran that matters but the beliefs of the people.
You know, I just have to ask in general:
Where was the outrage that we are bowing to?
What are you defending?
What is your justification for staying in Iraq if Muslims are a hopless cause?
Do you understand the difference between fighting when you have to, and picking a fight? If so, how is a necessary fight?
If you respond to only one thing in this post, please let it be those questions. Those are really key to your arguments, and I’d love to see them elucidated.
apollyonbob on May 18, 2008 at 7:50 PM
We were at war with Germany and Japan, we’re not at war with Iraq. We’re trying to win over the Iraqis and incidents like this turns them agaist us and gets our people killed. Michael Yon writes about how effective groups like AQI and other insurgent groups are at “media warfare” and crap like this can be exploited against us.
Yakko77 on May 18, 2008 at 7:52 PM
In the America I’m living in, it’s 2008.
Perfesser on May 18, 2008 at 7:53 PM
Best.line.of.the.night.
And you can apply it to so much too, like “desecrating Mein Kampf to insult our German allies is wrong”.
Perhaps Muslims should try reading books instead of burning them.
TheEJS on May 18, 2008 at 7:53 PM
It’s not a matter of “kissing Islamic ass”. It’s a matter of not alienating the population that you are trying to get on your side. It’s not a big deal to us if someone does something idiotic to a Bible (most of us anyway) but it is a big deal to them concerning the Koran.
We have military and political objectives to attain, and doing things like shooting up the population’s holy book is counterproductive to achieving our objectives. Let’s be smart enough not to get into our own way.
Want to shoot up a Koran and then piss on it here in the states? Go ahead, I would probably even applaud you.
Hog Wild on May 18, 2008 at 7:55 PM
I’ll agree with you Ed when some jihadist slimeball walks up to ANY American and hands him or her a copy of the US Constitution kissed by Osama bi ladan and profusely apologizes
for wanting to destroy the western world and subjugate all of us to sharia law.
FUCK the Koran!
winemkr
out
PS
I want you to provide a detailed report on how many muslims are actually offended by this, as well as how many muslims there are that really give a shit.
Then I want you to tell us how many muslims have koran fatigue verses those who are sick and tired of being chained and shackled to the multiple interpertationss of this worthless piece of HOLY trash.
This is another example of the ROE defeating the mission.
winemkr on May 18, 2008 at 7:56 PM
(Bit of a shocker, here, Peter!)
Anything by Andy Rooney, Susan Sontag, or Bill Moyers.
Jaibones on May 18, 2008 at 7:57 PM
Sorry if I missed it, but where are you quoting that story from?
Jaibones on May 18, 2008 at 8:03 PM
Heh.
Jaibones on May 18, 2008 at 8:05 PM
Its 2008 already? Jesus. I gotta lay off the sauce.
apollyonbob on May 18, 2008 at 8:07 PM
Sorry…..stepped away to BBQ.
All I was saying in my post is it was a bonehead play. If a soldier in his outfit had produced a bullet riddled Bible and complained then the bonehead who shot it up would get hauled into the COs office.
I admit that because it was the Koran, and they were inside a Islamic country, it made the situation awkward and because hearts & minds IS part of the surge strategy, the military made an example out of him.
As for shooting Mein Kampf…..I don’t believe that is a religious text.
It was just stupid on the soldier’s part. The Army was in a position that it had to act. I get all the outrage over PC nonsense, but too bad. It isn’t PC for a soldier in uniform to walk up to the Speaker of the House and give her the bird, but damn sure would result in the bonehead who did that getting nailed to the wall.
Someone else said it….pragmatic. The damn battle is hard enough without shooting off our toes at every opportunity.
Limerick on May 18, 2008 at 8:08 PM
Jesus said to agree with your adversary quickly to avoid going to court over such a contention, to be willing to turn the other cheek and give up your coat if need be to make peace. The Iraqis had every reason in the world to be totally offended by what happened. Our military commander’s response took great courage and humility. There was absolutely no way that the Iraqis could honorably reject this thoroughly humble apology from the commander of the idiot for the wrong done with all of its implications.
maverick muse on May 18, 2008 at 8:09 PM
Nonsense. Your comment completely ignores the obvious fact that the Koran is revered also by nearly every Iraqi whom these men are defending, training, and working with.
Ed has it exactly right, imo, as does Spencer. Right move, if weirdly over the top. What not simply explain the truth to those willing to listen: this is not a holy war or a crusade. We are a secular nation founded by Christians with a keen view toward religious freedom, even for those who do not worship as Christians. And if someone shoots holes in a Holy Bible here in Toledo, no one would bat an eye, except to arrest the shooter for having a gun.
Jaibones on May 18, 2008 at 8:11 PM
oops
Jaibones on May 18, 2008 at 8:12 PM
Sorry, but you are trying to seperate the Iraq theatre from the rest of the war that is going on right now. The war between Militant Islam and the West. The two worldviews are NOT compatable… and the sooner we realize it and actualy bother to start fighting it, the better IMO.
Hez, Hamas, Al Q, are just subsets of the same Jihadist idealogy… an idealolgy that is not compatable with Western thought. There is no Freedom of Speech, or Religion, or conscience, in Islam. Seperation of Church and State is AGAINST the Koran…
And yet, instead of saying “get over it” as we would with a Western idea… we have an American General Kiss the Koran??? HUH????
We are trying to fight a religious war without admitting what it is. THEY use the religion as the basis for war… not us… they use the “outrage” to try to get us to submit…
Freedom of religion ONLY works if ALL religions abide by it. Go to the Middle East and try to open a Christian Church… go to Bethlehem and see how much of it the Islamists have bought and taken over since I was there in 1980. Go to the Kingdom of Saud and say anything about how they use the Koran to keep women from equal rights… theres a guy there RIGHT NOW who is sentenced to DEATH for it.
Yes, what the soldier did was stupid… but what the Generals then did was even stupider.
You know, I just have to ask in general:
Where was the outrage that we are bowing to?
My point… the outrage was not even generated yet, we are so scared of it we submited even before they asked…
What are you defending?
Defending? oh… how about American Freedom of Speech?
What is your justification for staying in Iraq if Muslims are a hopless cause?
Except for stabilizing the region? Keeping a military presence there to scare Iran? None IMO… once they inscribed Sharia law into their constitution, we were hosed.
Do you understand the difference between fighting when you have to, and picking a fight? If so, how is a necessary fight?
Silly question, especialy to someone who served in the Cold War, and Desert Storm… and first got shot at in Lebanon in 83. I understand the difference, I’m not sure our leaders do. We would not be the ones picking any fight in this case… it would be THEIR outrage… which we are apparently now so scared of that we submit proactively.
Romeo13 on May 18, 2008 at 8:20 PM
Right on.
Johan Klaus on May 18, 2008 at 8:26 PM
The Soldier WAS WRONG!
I, as a Christian, was raised to believe that you treat EVERYONE with the respect YOU expect to receive yourself!
Our military is in an Islamic country. We went there to get rid of a rotten bas7ard who defied UN sanctions and an agreement we made with him in a prior war.
I support the decision to invade, then and now. BUT, we ARE in their country and YES we MUST respect them; their culture; and their religion - IF WE EXPECT TO WIN!
The object is to “Win Hearts and Minds” as well as defeating the enemy. That can’t be forgotten!
The General may have gone overboard in his apology (I’m not an expert) - BUT HE WAS CORRECT IN APOLOGISINGAND ASKING THEIR FORGIVNESS!
FloridaBill on May 18, 2008 at 8:28 PM
Total moron to have done this in Iraq, now if we here in the states want to have a massive Koran-eque I say fire up the barbie and lets see what happens!!!
dmann on May 18, 2008 at 8:29 PM
Battlefield Earth is not a bad book. The movie was absolutely, freakin’ terrible and stupid. Battlefield Earth is just a science fiction book, there’s no Scientology overtones or anything like that, nor is it worthy of any award. It’s a fun book to read at least once. I was actually impressed that Hubbard, the author, didn’t put any sort of Scientology in it.
So, the solider should have shot the DVD of Battlefield Earth.
Weebork on May 18, 2008 at 8:30 PM
Rom
We do need to fight this war on our terms, not theirs and with extreme prejudice.
Johan Klaus on May 18, 2008 at 8:33 PM
Mormon Doc on May 18, 2008 at 6:12 PM
What ever happened to “avoid the appearance of all evil?”
There is no way on earth that the soldier blasting the Koran IN IRAQ is justified. Obey the law of the land. When in Rome, do as the Romans. There are US military orders not to do that.
You tread heavily, Doc.
maverick muse on May 18, 2008 at 8:34 PM
I agree.
I don’t know if Hammond went overboard with the apology or not. If it worked then I don’t think we ought to be second-guessing him.
.
GT on May 18, 2008 at 8:34 PM
I want to hear the soldier’s side.
And discover, first, if it is even true, or just another trumped up provocation (the faux Gitmo Koran flushing incident comes to mind) to undermine the Coalition effort.
But, if true, the guy deserves to be reamed for being a trouble-making jerk by leaving the evidence behind… to cause predictable grief for his fellow soldiers and our national image.
Still, something stinks of fake in this story.
profitsbeard on May 18, 2008 at 8:35 PM
It would not be the first time.
Johan Klaus on May 18, 2008 at 8:37 PM
Hammond got it all over with at once with no second guessing “was it enough”–why go back and make a second apology if they find the first insufficient. Get it over with and move on.
When the soldier comes home, he can go to a firing range and blast to his heart’s content. PATIENCE IS A VIRTUE. Find the appropriate place–NOT IRAQ DURING OUR INVOLVEMENT.
maverick muse on May 18, 2008 at 8:38 PM
Patton is rolling over in his grave.
Jaynie59 on May 18, 2008 at 6:35 PM
FYI
Patton had to apologize big time in Casablanca, Morocco for the misdeed and cultural insensitivity of American troops. I believe he had to pay out of his own pocket. Details are (among other places) in No Banners, No Bugles. (New York: Dodd, Mead, and Company, 1949) by Rear Admiral Edward Ellsberg.
There is more to warfare than killing the enemy
NaCly dog on May 18, 2008 at 8:41 PM
How about “It Takes a Village” ?
new2wnc on May 18, 2008 at 8:41 PM
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