All I did was bring a Quranic reference to a bad angel and explain the Biblical Hebrew word for angel and its relevance.

Hmmm…The Angel of Death never would have ocurred to me as a “bad angel”….scary maybe! but not “bad”…but then perhaps the Qur’anic version is much different from the Biblical one??

I was referring much more to the deceitfulness of Satan and his angels.

Not to imply that they are not still held obedient to a sovereign G*d, as He Himself says, He put a lying spirit into some 400 prophets (1 Kings, II Chronicles), but that we are supposed to be extra sure that any “supernatural” word actually IS from G*d.

I’m glad to hear that you are believing, very sorry to hear that you don’t care to claim that we share what scriptures we do have in common.

When I even brush upon that concept, I can’t shake a deeply moving scene from a movie called “The Lost Battalion”, which is about Maj. Charles Wittlesey and his men during the Battle of the Argonne in WWI. They were surrounded by Germans, and even suffered friendly fire-it was horrendous, but the point is when one of his soldiers was mortally wounded he begged Whittlesey, who was Jewish, to read to him from his bible. Unfortunately, being kept in his breastpocket, it was soaked through with his blood and illegible…Whittlesey began quoting Pslams to him from memory and it comforted him as he passed. As I said, a deeply moving scene, and from my perspective, epitomizing of what I was refering to as “our common scriptures”.

.I wasn’t offended at any time. I greatly appreciate these conversations.

Yippee!! *Whew*!

And the answer is of course that Christ came into the world to save it, not to condemn it.

(me)

Any devout Muslim will tell you the same thing about Islam.

(you)

Ah! but what scripture could they use to support such an idea!?

They might try–out of jealousy to Christianity’s correct claim–but Allah has spoken too clearly on the subject, it’s he who has deceived the unbelievers, it’s he who would have made them Muslims if he had wanted to, it’s he who will fill hell with them, in place of his loyal Muslim followers. The teaching is not parallel, specifically because Allah hates the unbeliever, while G*d so loved them that before they ever turned to Him, he sent Yeshua to die for them.

See Robert Spencer’s previous reply.

(Which says that Matthew 5:32-43 doesn’t specifically call unbelievers enemies)–but it’s still an excellent answer to what makes Christianity different from Islam (or vice versa) because we’re commanded to bless and pray for our enemies–whatever the reason for their enmity.

Nevertheless, Mark XVI:15-16 is extremely similar to Islam’s paralell concept.

Hmmm-I think I may have not been clear in what I was trying to say…I meant that while the concept of a fiery hell, occupied by unbelievers is similar (after all, they got the idea from us!-meaning, Christians) it is nonetheless different in that the whole purpose for hell Biblically was for the restraint of Satan and his angels, not for men. Scripturally, they’ll be entering hell not because G*d hates them, but because they hate G*d.

The specific purpose for hell in Islam is to finally inflict all of Allah’s burning hatred for the unbelievers and women for all eternity. They took a distinctly Chrstian concept, and perverted it.

LOL–I’m sure you’ll enjoy the irony of that comment, and that makes me smile. :-)

They take them in stride. Here is Ibn Kathir on 25:1: “Here Allah praises Himself for the Noble Qur’an He has revealed to His noble Messenger.”

In other words, Allah should be in the NFL. :)

I am just pointed out that the concepts of spiritual crime, judgement and punishment are not alien to Christianity.

I thought it was quite plain that you were correcting me, not expounding upon what I had said. I certainly don’t want to argue with you at all! I just want to participate in discussion.

Auralae on May 19, 2008 at 2:12 AM

And so you did. And so did I.

All I did was bring a Quranic reference to a bad angel and explain the Biblical Hebrew word for angel and its relevance.

I thought you were a believing Jew…

I am.

and therefore we did have Scripture in common–though of course not the New Testament.

As Judaism views Christianity’s assumptions about the Torah as being anywhere from ignorant to apostacy and as Christianity refers to the Torah as an old, in the sense of expired, testament, I do not care to claim that we share those scriptures. However, my main intent was indeed in reference to the NT.

I’m heartily sorry if I’ve offered any offense (I’m getting an impression that I may have-hopefully this “oversensitivity” on part of my feminine intuition)

I wasn’t offended at any time. I greatly appreciate these conversations.

I’m afraid, as often is the case when writing/emailing/commenting/blogging, that tones are misconstrued.

Let’s go on:

And the answer is of course that Christ came into the world to save it, not to condemn it.

Any devout Muslim will tell you the same thing about Islam.

and commanded His followers to love their enemies and pray for those who persecute them. There is a clear teaching that G*d loves unbelievers, while Allah blinds, deceives, curses and hates them.

See Robert Spencer’s previous reply.

I’d also like to link Romans 2 as it answers the topic of unbelievers vs disbelievers–those who have never heard–or “righteous gentiles

Distinction noted. Nevertheless, Mark XVI:15-16 is extremely similar to Islam’s paralell concept.

Oh! and–Shy Guy–did you notice from your first quote up there, that Hell was prepared for the Devil and his angels??–according to the Bible–while according to the Qur’an, it was prepared for unbelievers! How’s that for another difference?

“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
– Mark IX:43-48

” And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
– Revelation XX:12-15

“He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
– Revelation XXI:7-8

There are more but that should suffice.

What do these commentators say when someone points out these added voices?

They take them in stride. Here is Ibn Kathir on 25:1: “Here Allah praises Himself for the Noble Qur’an He has revealed to His noble Messenger.”

How is the Quran different in this respect from Christianity:

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.”
- Matthew XXV:41

“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
- Matthew XXV:46

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
- Mark XVI:15-16

Shy Guy on May 18, 2008 at 12:15 PM

And the answer is of course that Christ came into the world to save it, not to condemn it, and commanded His followers to love their enemies and pray for those who persecute them. There is a clear teaching that G*d loves unbelievers, while Allah blinds, deceives, curses and hates them.

I’d also like to link Romans 2 as it answers the topic of unbelievers vs disbelievers–those who have never heard–or “righteous gentiles” Basically, when gentiles do G*d’s will by instinct, if they are obedient to His law, even though they don’t have it–He’ll reward them accordingly…and when we who have His law transgress it–we’ll also receive His judgement. It’s a convicting passage to me…kinda like Phil. 2:12-13 “Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.”

Oh! and–Shy Guy–did you notice from your first quote up there, that Hell was prepared for the Devil and his angels??–according to the Bible–while according to the Qur’an, it was prepared for unbelievers! How’s that for another difference?

And from these and other readings, it’s rather clear that Allah shows all His love to the

“believers”, but none of that love to be for the “unbelievers”. Which is contradictory to,

say, Christianity that declares God loves all people…noting the difference between

“non-believer” and those who know the Word and yet reject it.

JetBoy on May 18, 2008 at 11:32 AM

And from these and other readings, it’s rather clear that Allah shows all His love to the

“believers”, but none of that love to be for the “unbelievers”. Which is contradictory to,

say, Christianity that declares God loves all people…noting the difference between

“non-believer” and those who know the Word and yet reject it.

JetBoy on May 18, 2008 at 11:32 AM

Mr. Spencer answered well, with Matthew 5, I would like to add more (or expound) ;-)

The Koran specificall says that Allah hates the unbeliever:

[2.89] And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and

aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to

them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize, they disbelieved in him; so Allah’s curse

is on the unbelievers.

[2.98] Whoever is the enemy of Allah and His angels and His apostles and Jibreel and

Meekaeel, so surely Allah is the enemy of the unbelievers.

[3.32] Say: Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not

love the unbelievers.

[7.101] These towns– We relate to you some of their stories, and certainly their apostles

came to them with clear arguments, but they would not believe in what they rejected at

first; thus does Allah set a seal over the hearts of the unbelievers

[8.18] This, and that Allah is the weakener of the struggle of the unbelievers

Interesting parallel concept in the New Testament:

3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. 4In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Cor. 4:3-4

[33.47] And give to the believers the good news that they shall have a great grace from

Allah.

[33.64] Surely Allah has cursed the unbelievers and has prepared for them a burning
fire,

Mr. Spencer already shared Matthew 5:44 I would like to add:

34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even

‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do

good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will

be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and

wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Luke 6:34-36

14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

15that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
16″For G*d so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him

should not perish but have eternal life. 17For G*d did not send his Son into the world to

condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever

believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because

he has not believed in the name of the only Son of G*d. 19 And this is the judgment: the

light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because

their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not

come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21But whoever does what is true comes

to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in G*d.” John 3:14-21

I need to add that any emphasis (bold type) is of course mine.

6For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will

scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to

die— 8but G*d shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 5:6-8

Romans 5 explains our ambassadorship pretty succinctly, sin came into the world through

Adam, while Salvation came into the world through Jesus the Messiah. (Yehoshua Ha Messiach-for the ungentiled version of His name).

The offer and means is there to ALL. G*d’s love for all His creation, including unbelievers isn’t new either. Ezekiel teaches us: ” Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?”

As a matter of fact, we’re supposed to warn them, and if we don’t, we’re held accountable for their blood.

When I say to a wicked man, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself. Ezekiel 3:18-19

Remember, He takes no pleasure in the death of that wicked man…and He has provided salvation for all. This is distinctly different from Islamic teaching.

wouldn’t want anyone even CONSIDERING that not all angels are good, would we?! –Auralae

The Biblical Hebrew word for an angel is “Mal’ach”, also meaning a messenger. Angels by

defintion carry out their divine orders. They are not beings with inclinations who can

choose between good and evil. Shy Guy

Show me where I said they did Auralae

On this point, I was expounding what you had said, not arguing with you….
You and I do not share the same scriptures.

I thought it was quite plain that you were correcting me, not expounding upon what I had said. I certainly don’t want to argue with you at all! I just want to participate in discussion.

I thought you were a believing Jew…and therefore we did have Scripture in common–though of course not the New Testament.

I’m heartily sorry if I’ve offered any offense (I’m getting an impression that I may have-hopefully this “oversensitivity” on part of my feminine intuition)

The opening verse of this sura is also one of the apparent (and unacknowledged by Islamic commentators) exceptions to the rule that Allah is the lone speaker in the Qur’an — unless he is blessing himself for delivering the Qur’an to Muhammad.

This is one of those internal contradictions in the Qur’an that drive me a wee bit buggy: Muslims, including a few I’ve spoken with, claim that the Qur’an is Allah’s literal word. Yet, if true, there are several places, include verse one of this chapter, where he talks about himself in the third person like an NFL player at a press conference.

And now you’re saying that Islamic commentators just ignore these added voices? I keep picturing some salesman trying to sell a house and telling the prospective buyers that there’s no hole in the roof when they can clearly see several. What do these commentators say when someone points out these added voices?

How many Hadiths are there? Hundreds? Thousands?

Tens of thousands.

Who decides which are “valid” and which are “invalid”? Who decides to believe those who have decided?

There is a whole science of hadith evaluation, undertaken by religious scholars based on various criteria: the quality of the chain of transmission from Muhammad, the number of times a tradition is repeated by different authorities, etc.
The authentic hadith are generally agreed upon and are taught as such by the schools of Islamic jurisprudence. There is not a huge area of disagreement here.

I’ve never read a coherent, or even a half assed explanation, of why, if the Koran is the last, literal, true word of God, why does that book not stand on it’s own.

Well, because it says it doesn’t. It instructs Muslims repeatedly to obey Muhammad (3:32; 3:132; 4:13; 4:59; 4:69; 5:92; 8:1; 8:20; 8:46; 9:71; 24:47; 24:51; 24:52; 24:54; 24:56; 33:33; 47:33; 49:14; 58:13; 64:12). Since Muhammad is dead, the only way Muslims can fulfill this command to obey him — made in the perfect, eternal book — is by imitating his actions and obeying his counsels. And these are found in the hadith.

All religious faith requires some kind of blind acceptance. It wouldn’t be faith otherwise. But Muslims take it to an extreme that no other religion seems to do. All Muslims believe that the Koran is the last, literal, true word of God. All of them not only believe that, they take great pride in it.

But yet, all Muslims are also admonished to not try to interpret the text themselves. They are not allowed to do that. Since there is no central authority in Islam, all Muslims pretty much have to depend on the interpretations of others to tell them what the texts mean. Hence the Hadiths.

How many Hadiths are there? Hundreds? Thousands? Who decides which are “valid” and which are “invalid”? Who decides to believe those who have decided?

I’ve never read a coherent, or even a half assed explanation, of why, if the Koran is the last, literal, true word of God, why does that book not stand on it’s own.

They revere a book to such an extent that they will kill in it’s defense, but they can’t read it without someone else telling them what it means. And then they get to pick and choose what those people say it means.

The contradiction is glaring. Here are people who have nothing but contempt for other religious texts because they’ve been “corrupted” by the hand of man, and everything in Islam depends on men to decide what God’s word actually means.

None of them seem to have any problem with this.

Nah, they don’t let us Irish boys attend those meetings. :-)

Oh yes, I remember our discussing this now. Sorry I missed you. Next time I fly Southwest I’ll look for you!

On a Southwest airplane, you were deplaning and I was a member of the crew taking over the jet for the next flight. You walked by me and I almost said something but I wasn’t sure if it was you, that Sunday you confirmed it for me right here on your BTQ thread.

I’ve seen you in person (still kicking myself in the butt for not saying hello)

By the way, where was this? That sleazy bar on the South Side? The meeting of the Five Families? Where?

In case you or anyone else is interested, some commentary on this can be found here.

Robert Spencer on May 18, 2008 at 2:27 PM

Thanks. I’ll check it out.

Thanks. I always did prefer the Ringo thing. I confess, however, that many years ago on separate occasions I did go as both to costume parties — in both cases I didn’t have a costume and so just showed up and said I was dressed as Ringo, or Yasir (I did have a toy gun for the latter).

Robert, I’ve seen you in person (still kicking myself in the butt for not saying hello) and I can tell you that you look NOTHING like Yasir Arafat! Them’s fightin’ words!

Matthew 25:321-46

Oops. Sorry. That should of course be Matthew 25:31-46.

Robert Spencer on May 18, 2008 at 2:34 PM

Ah – I understand. Thanks.

Well… that passage from Matthew does not really address my question. Either you misunderstood, or I did not state my question very well.

The distinction you were asking for was between believers and unbelievers, no? The closest I could give you was that passage, which makes a distinction between the just and the unjust, because you’ll note that Matthew 25:321-46 has the divine judgment proceeding entirely on the basis of how people behaved, not on what they believed at all.