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Breaking: California Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage; Update: Opinion-skimming analysis added!

posted at 1:11 pm on May 15, 2008 by Allahpundit
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An election-year bombshell, just across the wires. Rove, you magnificent bastard. Stand by for updates.

Update: Here’s the opinion. How does 172 pages sound?

Update: The AP story is thin on specifics since it’ll take awhile to digest the holding. Read this useful bullet-point background from the Journal to get up to speed on the legal posture. Note that six of the seven justices on the court are Republicans. Will the ruling stick?

“Pro-family” organizations have submitted more than 1.1 million signatures for an initiative that would amend the state Constitution to outlaw same-sex marriage. If at least 694,354 signatures are found to be valid, the measure would go on the November ballot and, if approved by voters, would override any court ruling in favor of same-sex marriage.

Proposition 22, the California ballot initiative that defined marriage in the state as between one man and one woman (even if the marriage was entered into in another state that allows same-sex marriage), passed in 2000 by a margin of 1.7 million votes.

Update: Sounds like a major win:

Gays and lesbians have a constitutional right to marry in California, the state Supreme Court said today in a historic ruling that could be repudiated by the voters in November.

In a 4-3 decision, the justices said the state’s ban on same-sex marriage violates the “fundamental constitutional right to form a family relationship.” The ruling is likely to flood county courthouses with applications from couples newly eligible to marry when the decision takes effect in 30 days.

The ruling set off a celebration at San Francisco City Hall.

Update: A quick skim reveals that the opinion’s fairly straightforward. They start out by noting that California’s different from other states that have dealt with this insofar as it already has a robust domestic partnership law. All this is about, really, is whether gays should be allowed to “marry” the way straights do or whether they’re stuck with those partnership agreements that leave them married in effect but not in name. Conservatives like partnership schemes and/or civil unions as an alternative to gay marriage, but I’ve always thought that argument’s self-defeating since it leaves you with no substantive reason for drawing any distinction in the first place. Yes, (some) conservatives seem to be saying, gays can go ahead and have civil unions that grant them all the benefits married couples have — but for god’s sake, don’t let them call themselves “married.” To which a court can only reply, “Why not?” The right’s strategy, in other words, has been to concede 99 yards and then stand on the one-yard line and say “no further,” but that’s not how discrimination jurisprudence works. If you’re going to discriminate you need a good reason, and depending upon whom you’re discriminating against, you may need a very, very good reason.

That’s actually the key ruling here: The court holds on page 95 that because sexual orientation is (1) immutable, (2) unrelated to one’s ability to function in society, and (3) a target of prejudice, it should be treated as a “suspect classification” for purposes of the state constitution’s equal protection clause. Once it’s deemed a suspect classification then the state needs a very compelling reason to justify discriminating on the basis of it — and since, as I say, it’s already conceded those 99 yards, there’s no such reason to be had. (If you want to bore yourself with the vagaries of equal protection jurisprudence, read this old post about New Jersey’s gay marriage ruling.) All they’re doing is denying gays the label of marriage to preserve a sense of stigma, which is almost a paradigm case of what equal protection is meant to prevent. I have no problem with the ruling as long as other states aren’t compelled to recognize Cali marriages per full faith and credit, which, needless to say, is the battleground on which this decision’s going to be fought in the presidential race. Taking the federalist approach and letting each state decide for itself is an easy call for Maverick; what about the Prince of Peace?

Exit question: Remember this golden oldie from the 2006 midterms?


Blowback

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Finally, get Government out the bedrooms, and on to real business and problems.

Chakra Hammer on May 15, 2008 at 4:03 PM

I take it, then, that you would be opposed to the government interfering with terrorists planning some attack so long as they are doing so in the privacy of their bedroom?

medguy on May 15, 2008 at 4:13 PM

It’s already adversely affected the marriage rate in Sweden, the first nation to permit “gay marriage.” People think, “Well, if two buggers can marry, I don’t need it. We’ll just shack up.” Bastardy increases with its own social pathologies, and so on and on.

Akzed on May 15, 2008 at 4:12 PM

You can already live together in the U.S. Why get married at all? It’s a financial nightmare to get out of.

dedalus on May 15, 2008 at 4:14 PM

It’s already adversely affected the marriage rate in Sweden, the first nation to permit “gay marriage.”

Akzed on May 15, 2008 at 4:12 PM

That’s my point in my comments above quoting Blankenhorn and Gallagher. It’s been done and it’s been studied. People need to open their eyes.

It’s like gun control and universal health care. They’ve both been tried with disastrous results in other countries, but the liberals here do not get it.

Gay marriage has been tried elsewhere and the consequences are there.

INC on May 15, 2008 at 4:15 PM

Finally, get Government out the bedrooms, and on to real business and problems.

Chakra Hammer on May 15, 2008 at 4:03 PM

I agree with the sentiment but marriage does extend far beyond the bedroom.

phronesis on May 15, 2008 at 4:16 PM

“I’m having a hard time coming up with any case in which religious liberty should win.”

this is what the entire gay agenda is all about. they’re out to silence christians, or anyone else who dares criticize them. they’re trying to impose a gay sharia on this country. where anything they dislike is punished.

right4life on May 15, 2008 at 4:18 PM

OK. Let’s look at the biological question. Why don’t we make the hypothesis that homosexuality is a mutation?

Now………..discuss!

Okay! If homosexuality is genetic rather than behavioral, it will soon die out. (Gee, let’s guess which one it really is!)

Bonus tangential question:
Should a man who undergoes a sex change operation be legally considered a woman even though he still has a Y-chromosome?

Beo on May 15, 2008 at 4:19 PM

heh…I just love the self-righteous cherry-pickers throwing selective Bible verses around. Never ceases to amaze me.

JetBoy on May 15, 2008 at 3:56 PM

“Cherry-pickers”?

I quoted:

Mark 10:6 – But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. [7] For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; [8] And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are not more twain, but one flesh.

OhEssYouCowboys on May 15, 2008 at 3:31 PM

Please, now, show me any citation, in either the Old or the New Testament, which approves of homosexuality and, more specifically, approves of homosexual marriage.

I’d wait for your response; but I know that you’ll have none. So, I won’t bother.

OhEssYouCowboys on May 15, 2008 at 4:19 PM

Marriage is a God given right just like life and liberty. Constitution should protect this right

PrezHussein on May 15, 2008 at 4:19 PM

You can already live together in the U.S. Why get married at all? It’s a financial nightmare to get out of.
dedalus on May 15, 2008 at 4:14 PM
It’s already adversely affected the marriage rate in Sweden, the first nation to permit “gay marriage.”
Akzed on May 15, 2008 at 4:12 PM
That’s my point in my comments above quoting Blankenhorn and Gallagher. It’s been done and it’s been studied. People need to open their eyes.
It’s like gun control and universal health care. They’ve both been tried with disastrous results in other countries, but the liberals here do not get it.
Gay marriage has been tried elsewhere and the consequences are there.
INC on May 15, 2008 at 4:15 PM

Except in the mind of the seriously mentally ill, there have been no “dire consequences” of gay marriage, and it’s just silly to assert otherwise. I suppose people will believe anything in their own private Idaho.

thuja on May 15, 2008 at 4:20 PM

I don’t know if anyone ever saw the videos by the kid from Brooklyn, but he encapsulated my attitude towards gay marriage in one statement:

“Let them suffer like the rest of us…”

So…go get married. And suffer like the rest of us.

iconoclast on May 15, 2008 at 4:20 PM

Gay sharia on this country. where anything they dislike is punished.

right4life on May 15, 2008 at 4:18 PM

Liking the term

PrezHussein on May 15, 2008 at 4:20 PM

I can’t really get too worked up about this. It is at the moment a California thing. If I were a Californian then yes the judicial activism would bother me but they put these judges in, let them deal with it. “Full Faith and Credit” and DOMA were on the block the moment Mass legalized it.

Dawnsblood on May 15, 2008 at 4:21 PM

Okay! If homosexuality is genetic rather than behavioral, it will soon die out. (Gee, let’s guess which one it really is!)

this is very intolerant in the state of kkkalifornication you’d be jailed!!

right4life on May 15, 2008 at 4:21 PM

Oh. So two men buggering one another is not perversion? It’s right as the mail. What in your world constitutes perversion then?
Akzed on May 15, 2008 at 4:07 PM

In my world perversion is one person trying to impose their idea of morality on someone else. Buggery, as you put it, doesn’t really bother me since I neither participate in it nor do I ever see it. I’m not interested in what people do in privacy. As a religious principal well that’s between God and these people why don’t we just let God and them sort it out?

Oldnuke on May 15, 2008 at 4:22 PM

Whether a straight couple eventually divorces won’t be affected by gay couples having a marriage certificate on their wall rather than a domestic partnership certificate.

dedalus on May 15, 2008 at 4:09 PM

Yes it will. In Britain, a painting of a man and a woman getting married had to be removed from a registry office after a complaint from a gay couple who were getting married – it discriminated against their own union. In Sweden priests are forced to marry homosexuals against their will. Thats two examples, there are potentially millions.

aengus on May 15, 2008 at 4:22 PM

Okay! If homosexuality is genetic rather than behavioral, it will soon die out. (Gee, let’s guess which one it really is!)

Beo on May 15, 2008 at 4:19 PM

Unless it’s not a dominate trait, like red hair. Then it can be passed on through heterosexual parents. And of course, gays can still have children. They just need an extra person to help.

Many gay people were once straight and already have children.

Esthier on May 15, 2008 at 4:22 PM

Are you comparing two consenting adults to predatory child rapists? Get a grip.

ronsfi on May 15, 2008 at 2:48 PM

No, I’m saying the same “logic” being used by the California Supreme Court to legalize gay marriage could be used to defend predatory child rapists in court. It’s faulty logic and could lead to even bigger problems.

Red Pill on May 15, 2008 at 4:22 PM

Marriage is a God given right

No, it isn’t. Please show me a source where it says that other than your post. Voting isn’t a right either.

ThackerAgency on May 15, 2008 at 4:22 PM

phronesis on May 15, 2008 at 4:16 PM

I agree. My comments about the effects on children (also here) and on religious liberty (also here) are flipped to page 4 now.

I repeat part of it with my emphasis:

From Anthony Picarello, “president and general counsel of the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty. The Becket Fund is widely recognized as one of the best religious liberty law firms and the only one that defends the religious liberty of all faith groups, “from Anglicans to Zoroastrians,” as its founder Kevin J. Hasson likes to say (referring to actual clients the Becket Fund has defended).”

Just how serious are the coming conflicts over religious liberty stemming from gay marriage?

“The impact will be severe and pervasive,” Picarello says flatly. “This is going to affect every aspect of church-state relations.” Recent years, he predicts, will be looked back on as a time of relative peace between church and state, one where people had the luxury of litigating cases about things like the Ten Commandments in courthouses. In times of relative peace, says Picarello, people don’t even notice that “the church is surrounded on all sides by the state; that church and state butt up against each other. The boundaries are usually peaceful, so it’s easy sometimes to forget they are there. But because marriage affects just about every area of the law, gay marriage is going to create a point of conflict at every point around the perimeter.”

INC on May 15, 2008 at 4:23 PM

Except in the mind of the seriously mentally ill, there have been no “dire consequences” of gay marriage,

notice the future of this country, anyone who dares disagree with gay agenda is ‘mentally ill’ and needs to be re-educated in a nice little soviet-style mental hospital…

educate yourself….

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Family/MarriageDebate/ConsequencesMD.cfm

right4life on May 15, 2008 at 4:23 PM

Well once it became a personal thing I suppose they wanted to be supportive parents. But I’m not going to get into that because I’m only interested in the principle of the thing, whether or not it is good for society. I think it is extremely radical and harmful.

Gay people started by saying they wanted to be left alone – live and let live – but have been pushing a radical agenda to transform society in order to accomodate themselves. This is wrong, the minority should simply accept majority mores. They have individual rights and are free to live together and leave their possessions to each other in their last will and testament. That is enough.

aengus on May 15, 2008 at 4:13 PM

Sure, the anecdotal cases aren’t met to address the principal rather their just examples to me of people that aren’t liberal in their politics but who love and accept their gay family members, while, in some cases, thinking that homosexuality is strange.

One doesn’t have to accept the mores of gays marrying, but, in California anyway, one can’t deny them the fundamental right of doing so.

dedalus on May 15, 2008 at 4:24 PM

heh…I just love the self-righteous cherry-pickers throwing selective Bible verses around. Never ceases to amaze me.

JetBoy on May 15, 2008 at 3:56 PM

30 minutes later, still no Biblical refutation from JetBoy. What’s the matter, pages stuck together in Song of Solomon?

fossten on May 15, 2008 at 4:24 PM

In my world perversion is one person trying to impose their idea of morality on someone else.

thats what the gays are doing…but to you good libs some pigs are more equal than others.

right4life on May 15, 2008 at 4:24 PM

As a religious principal well that’s between God and these people why don’t we just let God and them sort it out?

God cares what happens on earth as well as in heaven and so should we, being that we have to live here and all.

aengus on May 15, 2008 at 4:24 PM

Many gay people were once straight and already have children.

Esthier on May 15, 2008 at 4:22 PM

Interesting statement. I wonder what other ‘minority’ group can say this. many blacks were once white. . . no. Many women were once men. . . only through surgery.

People moving from gay to straight, and even some people having an identity as ‘bi-sexual’ proves that the mythical ’sexual orientation’ is merely who you choose to have sex with at any given time.

ThackerAgency on May 15, 2008 at 4:24 PM

thuja on May 15, 2008 at 4:20 PM

Go back and read my comments on page 4. There has been some serious thinking and study done on it.

INC on May 15, 2008 at 4:24 PM

As soon as the camel’s nose is under the tent, the tent is doomed.

Akzed on May 15, 2008 at 4:25 PM

Allahpundit agrees. What does the captain think?

PrezHussein on May 15, 2008 at 4:25 PM

No, it isn’t. Please show me a source where it says that other than your post. Voting isn’t a right either.

ThackerAgency on May 15, 2008 at 4:22 PM

Before there was a state, any state, there was marriage.

dedalus on May 15, 2008 at 4:25 PM

Unless it’s not a dominate trait, like red hair. Then it can be passed on through heterosexual parents. And of course, gays can still have children. They just need an extra person to help.

Many gay people were once straight and already have children.

so how did they become ‘gay’ then?? did they just all of a sudden ‘evolve’??? obviously not, they made a choice.

right4life on May 15, 2008 at 4:25 PM

The final step will be the legalized union of any number of consenting adults (polyamory) which will make Muslims and some fringe religious sects happy.

Government should really get out of the marriage game by ending tax benefits and restrict its efforts and intervention to protecting the defenseless, that is, the children. This would in no way impede those who wish to take vows according to cultish traditions nor would it impede the entry into secular contractual arrangements between consenting parties.

Annar on May 15, 2008 at 4:26 PM

30 minutes later, still no Biblical refutation from JetBoy. What’s the matter, pages stuck together in Song of Solomon?

fossten on May 15, 2008 at 4:24 PM

JetBoy flew away. But, I knew he would.

OhEssYouCowboys on May 15, 2008 at 4:27 PM

Except in the mind of the seriously mentally ill, there have been no “dire consequences” of gay marriage, and it’s just silly to assert otherwise. I suppose people will believe anything in their own private Idaho.

thuja on May 15, 2008 at 4:20 PM

Wow. Let’s lock up everyone who disagrees with you.

Akzed on May 15, 2008 at 4:27 PM

I take it, then, that you would be opposed to the government interfering with terrorists planning some attack so long as they are doing so in the privacy of their bedroom?

medguy on May 15, 2008 at 4:13 PM

What the hell does terrorist have to do with gay marriage?

Chakra Hammer on May 15, 2008 at 4:28 PM

right4life on May 15, 2008 at 4:24 PM

Oh, some gay guy is forcing you to have sex with him. How rude.

Oldnuke on May 15, 2008 at 4:28 PM

Before there was a state, any state, there was marriage.

dedalus on May 15, 2008 at 4:25 PM

That doesn’t make it a right. Rights are defined by the constitution as something that government is not allowed to take away from you. Marriage is not a right. There were abortions for a long time too, but that does not mean that people have a right to commit abortion (as some errantly believe). Health Care has been around a while too, but people don’t have a right to it.

ThackerAgency on May 15, 2008 at 4:28 PM

People moving from gay to straight, and even some people having an identity as ‘bi-sexual’ proves that the mythical ’sexual orientation’ is merely who you choose to have sex with at any given time.

ThackerAgency on May 15, 2008 at 4:24 PM

Would you make the same statement about religion? Is it just something you choose without an innate connection to it?

dedalus on May 15, 2008 at 4:28 PM

Homosexuality is not ‘immutable’. People change back and forth all the time.

Is being an alcoholic “immutable?” Does an alcoholic have to drink? If you answer yes, then the gay marriage argument works for you, and you have conceded there is no such thing as free will. And let’s legalize murder, too, since it happens to be a natural biological instinct as well.

If you answer no, then you agree that regardless of your personal inclinations, you can control your actions.

Vanceone on May 15, 2008 at 4:30 PM

Gay sharia on this country. where anything they dislike is punished.

right4life on May 15, 2008 at 4:18 PM

Isn’t that a contradictory term, considering sharia law would never allow gay marriage, and in fact would probably result in discrimination and violence against gays? Congrats, you’re on the same side as the jihadists on gay marriage!

crr6 on May 15, 2008 at 4:30 PM

About damned time. Get over it, Social Cons. You’ve lost. Society has moved on, now it’s your turn to move on.

INFDL on May 15, 2008 at 4:30 PM

Oh, some gay guy is forcing you to have sex with him. How rude.

looks like you’re engaged in wishful thinking…keep dreaming.

right4life on May 15, 2008 at 4:30 PM

Chakra Hammer on May 15, 2008 at 4:28 PM

You were applauding the court’s (incorrect) decision to “get government out of the bedroom,” were you not? Or is government interference, even in the bedroom, sometimes appropriate?

medguy on May 15, 2008 at 4:31 PM

Finally, get Government out the bedrooms, and on to real business and problems

Marriage ceremonies are not performed in bedrooms. No one is talking about outlawing sodomy, so the Government is not in your or anyone else’s bedroom.

aengus on May 15, 2008 at 4:31 PM

Would you make the same statement about religion? Is it just something you choose without an innate connection to it?

dedalus on May 15, 2008 at 4:28 PM

Religion is a belief. People choose to believe what they want to believe. I don’t know what you are getting at with this line of thought. People believe in religion based on an understanding of a personal relationship with God. . . Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Hare Krishnas, Christians, Buddhists all believe in religion based on what they choose to believe, yes.

ThackerAgency on May 15, 2008 at 4:32 PM

About damned time. Get over it, Social Cons. You’ve lost. Society has moved on, now it’s your turn to move on.

the only way you can ‘win’ is by tyrannically imposing your will upon others. you cannot win at the ballot box, or in the arena of ideas.

right4life on May 15, 2008 at 4:32 PM

Before there was a state, any state, there was marriage.

dedalus on May 15, 2008 at 4:25 PM

Before there was a state, any state, there was slavery.

INFDL on May 15, 2008 at 4:32 PM

That doesn’t make it a right. Rights are defined by the constitution as something that government is not allowed to take away from you. Marriage is not a right. There were abortions for a long time too, but that does not mean that people have a right to commit abortion (as some errantly believe). Health Care has been around a while too, but people don’t have a right to it.

ThackerAgency on May 15, 2008 at 4:28 PM

So rights not defined in the Constitution, by default, reside with the government? Could the government make a law saying straight couples can only give birth to 2 or fewer children?

dedalus on May 15, 2008 at 4:32 PM

aengus on May 15, 2008 at 4:24 PM

Well then just leave California never looking back else you be turned into a pillar of salt. If it’s a problem God will take care of it without your help.

Oldnuke on May 15, 2008 at 4:32 PM

Before there was a state, any state, there was slavery.

Before there was a state, any state, there was stupidity

right4life on May 15, 2008 at 4:34 PM

If it’s a problem God will take care of it without your help.

didn’t know you were His oracle.

right4life on May 15, 2008 at 4:34 PM

the only way you can ‘win’ is by tyrannically imposing your will upon others. you cannot win at the ballot box, or in the arena of ideas.

right4life on May 15, 2008 at 4:32 PM

Who is tyrannically imposing whoes will upon whom? How does gay marraige, better known as manraige, affect your marraige? And if it does affect it so badly, obviously your marraige needs help.

INFDL on May 15, 2008 at 4:35 PM

Well then just leave California never looking back else you be turned into a pillar of salt. If it’s a problem God will take care of it without your help.

Oldnuke on May 15, 2008 at 4:32 PM

*slaps head* Talk about drawing the wrong conclusion.

aengus on May 15, 2008 at 4:35 PM

Before there was a state, any state, there was slavery.

INFDL on May 15, 2008 at 4:32 PM

Fair point. Though slavery certainly interferes with an individual’s ability to exercis his other Constitutional rights. I’m able to exercise my Constitutional rights along with my wife irrespective of what my state supreme court decides.

dedalus on May 15, 2008 at 4:35 PM

Stop right there!

Immutable – not capable of or susceptible to change.

This is a bogus argument. Homosexuality is a learned behavioral and lifestyle choice and should not be classified as a “suspect classification” subject to equal protection.

CliffHanger on May 15, 2008 at 3:32 PM

my god, you are a mouth-breathing moron. how is it learned? you either are attracted to the same sex or your aren’t. you don’t learn to like the same sex. in much the same way that you just ‘are’ attracted to your livestock and like to make love to them, gays just ‘are’ attracted to the same sex. it is the way you are born.

JHC on May 15, 2008 at 4:36 PM

That American Heritage link above is such facetious drivel. It’s main thesis is that extending the right to marry to same-sex couples will result in dire social harm to *non-same-sex couples*. Thus same-sex couples become the keepers of society’s actions. What a load.

Viscount_Bolingbroke on May 15, 2008 at 4:36 PM

Who is tyrannically imposing whoes will upon whom?

four black-robed, jack-booted judges.

How does gay marraige, better known as manraige, affect your marraige?

and this has to what to do with the price of tea in china?

And if it does affect it so badly, obviously your marraige needs help.

you need help with logic obviously.

right4life on May 15, 2008 at 4:36 PM

Rights are defined by the constitution as something that government is not allowed to take away from you. Marriage is not a right.

Thacker, how are you getting form Point A to Point B. Rights are not ALL enumerated (see Amdmt IX), and not enumerated are reserved to the people. If marriage precedes government, which is does, it is reserved to the people. If the founders thought otherwise, they would have written a passage that confirmed legality to all marriages previous to the establishment of the current government. They didn’t, of course, because it’s not the proper domain of the state.

Spirit of 1776 on May 15, 2008 at 4:36 PM

Jetboy is about to cherry pick some verses to show unedumacated Christians whats what.

al sends

afterdarknesslight on May 15, 2008 at 4:08 PM

Nope…but I do take the Bible in it’s entirety and not just verses that I want. Leviticus bans a whole lotta things…shellfish, shaving, etc but you never hear about that from the fundamentalist/evangelical crowd.

JetBoy,

Self righteous? I’ll have you know I came out of a life of homosexuality and immorality when my eyes were opened to my unrightousness, sinfulness and desperate need of Christ. He set me free! Indeed, it is anything but self rightousness that motivates my quoting or as you say “cherry picking” Scriptures. I once felt as you did, until the Truth of God opened my eyes and set me free. Insult away, my friend, insult away.

Nolamom67 on May 15, 2008 at 4:10 PM

Yes…it’s very self-righteous of anyone to thump the Bible and use their own interpretation of God’s word to condemn others. Very un-Christlike indeed.

As for somehow being cured of your evil gayness…it’s a bunch of bunk and you know it. Homosexuality cannot be cured, as much as one’s race cannot be changed. You’ve been brainwashed my friend. But I digress.

JetBoy on May 15, 2008 at 4:37 PM

That American Heritage link above is such facetious drivel. It’s main thesis is that extending the right to marry to same-sex couples will result in dire social harm to *non-same-sex couples*. Thus same-sex couples become the keepers of society’s actions. What a load.

and your published research is where?

thought so.

right4life on May 15, 2008 at 4:37 PM

Here’s an article written by Dawn Stefanowicz: First-Person: Same-Sex ‘Marriage’ — Have the Best Interests of Children Been Considered? who grew up in a homosexual household. Read it to see consequences.

INC on May 15, 2008 at 4:02 PM

Sorry, when someone pulls the Think of the Children(TM) card on me, I tend to go the other direction. The Think of the Children(TM) argument is a handy way to ban tobacco, alcohol, guns, speech, and anything else a Nanny Stater wants to ban or regulate. No sale.

doubleplusundead on May 15, 2008 at 4:37 PM

If it’s a problem God will take care of it without your help.

Oldnuke on May 15, 2008 at 4:32 PM

That’s technically true. God didn’t ask Lot or even Abraham to save those cities. He only spared Lot and his family because of his relation to Abraham, but even they were messed up.

After leaving the city, he lived in a cave with his daughters who proceeded to get him drunk so that they could have sex with him and get pregnant.

You’ve lost. Society has moved on, now it’s your turn to move on.

INFDL on May 15, 2008 at 4:30 PM

Did you completely forget about the votes a few years back? The votes were overwhelmingly against homosexual marriage. Obviously you have a problem with social conservatives, but on this issue, society is overwhelmingly on that side.

Esthier on May 15, 2008 at 4:38 PM

Fair point. Though slavery certainly interferes with an individual’s ability to exercis his other Constitutional rights. I’m able to exercise my Constitutional rights along with my wife irrespective of what my state supreme court decides.

dedalus on May 15, 2008 at 4:35 PM

Doesn’t what you advocate “interfere with an individual’s ability to exercis his other Constitutional rights.”?

INFDL on May 15, 2008 at 4:38 PM

This is a bogus argument. Homosexuality is a learned behavioral and lifestyle choice and should not be classified as a “suspect classification” subject to equal protection.

Most people miss the point entirely. The right of any 2 people to marry is valid because those two are *people*, not men or women. Why must we choose that only heterosexual couples can marry? Isn’t that pretty much the definition of unequal treatment?

Viscount_Bolingbroke on May 15, 2008 at 4:38 PM

The right of any 2 people to marry is valid because those two are *people*, not men or women. Why must we choose that only heterosexual couples can marry? Isn’t that pretty much the definition of unequal treatment?

why only 2 people? thats very intolerant of you!

right4life on May 15, 2008 at 4:39 PM

ThackerAgency on May 15, 2008 at 4:32 PM
Most people do not choose their religion, they are brought up in it and the majority stay with the indoctrination of their youth. In some societies, like the U.S. one can choose to opt out or change later in life. In other societies the penalties for changing or opting out are sometimes deadly.

Annar on May 15, 2008 at 4:39 PM

Religion is a belief. People choose to believe what they want to believe. I don’t know what you are getting at with this line of thought. People believe in religion based on an understanding of a personal relationship with God. . . Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Hare Krishnas, Christians, Buddhists all believe in religion based on what they choose to believe, yes.

ThackerAgency on May 15, 2008 at 4:32 PM

Many religious people would argue that they are chosen. Some after practicing a different religion or no religion at all. It just took God’s intervention to help them realize who they really were and how they were meant to live their lives.

dedalus on May 15, 2008 at 4:39 PM

dedalus on May 15, 2008 at 4:32 PM

How’s this dedalus. A ‘right’ is actually defined as something that someone has because nobody has to give up anything for you to have it.

Gay people want to remove the opportunity for some people to have a normal life through this crusade to make their activity mainstream. They want to convince people that they are gay when they might not be. There is no ‘test’ that will ‘prove’ gayness. If there were there might be a lot of people who think they are gay. . . but they don’t have this ‘gay gene’. It takes the right of someone to have a normal lifestyle when they are pressured through peer pressure to think that they are gay. Homosexuality is the result of people making poor choices. You do have the right to make poor choices, but you don’t have the right to force the rest of society to accept your poor choices as good choices.

This is a poor argument but it is the crux of my problem with militant gays. People who are probably not gay are coerced into believing they are and are denied the ability to have a normal life because of the cult like status of the gay agenda. Basically, gay marriage is not a right.

ThackerAgency on May 15, 2008 at 4:39 PM

JHC…

Not to call you a mouth breathing moron or anything, but I don’t think you fully grasp what is meant by a learned behavior.

A sodomite is defined by behavior, which is learned by way of social pressure. Father issues, mother issues, molestations etc.

breath through your nose, it filters the air.

al sends

afterdarknesslight on May 15, 2008 at 4:40 PM

@ThackerAgency

Genesis 2:24: “Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.”

There it is God given right to have father and mother and then create your own marriage later

PrezHussein on May 15, 2008 at 4:40 PM

but to you good libs some pigs are more equal than others.
right4life on May 15, 2008 at 4:24 PM

Heh! That’s hilarious. I’m a lib because I disagree with you on one issue. I’m actually somewhere to the right of Goldwater.

*slaps head* Talk about drawing the wrong conclusion.
aengus on May 15, 2008 at 4:35 PM

Oh, sorry I’m so dense. Please enlighten me as to the conclusion I should have drawn from your post.

Oldnuke on May 15, 2008 at 4:41 PM

Why must we choose that only heterosexual couples can marry? Isn’t that pretty much the definition of unequal treatment?

Viscount_Bolingbroke on May 15, 2008 at 4:38 PM

Technically speaking, no one is saying gays cannot marry. They can. They just have to marry someone who isn’t of their gender.

In that sense they are being treated equally.

They cannot marry the person they want to marry, but they can marry.

Esthier on May 15, 2008 at 4:41 PM

Many religious people would argue that they are chosen. Some after practicing a different religion or no religion at all. It just took God’s intervention to help them realize who they really were and how they were meant to live their lives.

dedalus on May 15, 2008 at 4:39 PM

Look, it says in the Bible that Jews are the chosen people of the Old Testament. It doesn’t matter what they believe, that’s what it says. What it means is something that neither you nor I were meant to understand, but that is what it says. Religion is a choice, yes to answer your question.

ThackerAgency on May 15, 2008 at 4:41 PM

Why must we choose that only heterosexual couples can marry?

One reason is because only heterosexual couples can procreate.

Isn’t that pretty much the definition of unequal treatment?

Yes, it is a good definition of unequal treatment.

aengus on May 15, 2008 at 4:41 PM

Did you completely forget about the votes a few years back? The votes were overwhelmingly against homosexual marriage. Obviously you have a problem with social conservatives, but on this issue, society is overwhelmingly on that side.

Esthier on May 15, 2008 at 4:38 PM

Fine point, but views do change over time. While you’re pointing to such populist arguments, I would point out that the majority will eventually come around. Once the “activist judges” or “legislating fom the bench” strawmen (which I agree with when used honestly) expire, what will your argument be then?

INFDL on May 15, 2008 at 4:41 PM

like the U.S. one can choose to opt out or change later in life. In other societies the penalties for changing or opting out are sometimes deadly.

as will be the penalties for defaming homosexuality in this country.

right4life on May 15, 2008 at 4:42 PM

Esthier on May 15, 2008 at 4:41 PM

well said

ThackerAgency on May 15, 2008 at 4:42 PM

Doesn’t what you advocate “interfere with an individual’s ability to exercis his other Constitutional rights.”?

INFDL on May 15, 2008 at 4:38 PM

I don’t think so. I was referring to my state supreme court’s position on gay marriage. I’m not 100% certain of the most recent ruling and it just doesn’t affect my day-to-day life.

dedalus on May 15, 2008 at 4:42 PM

From the Heritage Foundation:

Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Germany, France, Luxembourg, Hungary, and Iceland have all granted some form of legal recognition to same-sex couples. Same-sex “marriage” has been legal in the Netherlands since 2001, in Belgium since 2003, and in Canada and Spain since 2005.

The most extensive research we have about the effect of same-sex “marriage” on society comes from the Netherlands.

The Netherlands has seen significant changes since the 1980s in its unwed birth rate. Dutch social scientists have observed a correlation between the campagin for same-sex “marriage” and the increasing disconnect between parenting and marriage.

Which nations in the devoloped world have not seen increased unwed births? How is an increase since 1980 an correlation to a legal change made in 2001?

Viscount_Bolingbroke on May 15, 2008 at 4:43 PM

Heh! That’s hilarious. I’m a lib because I disagree with you on one issue. I’m actually somewhere to the right of Goldwater.

oh of course you are!!! you probably call Rush and tell him what a good DE..REPUBLICAN you are!!

right4life on May 15, 2008 at 4:43 PM

As for somehow being cured of your evil gayness…it’s a bunch of bunk and you know it. Homosexuality cannot be cured, as much as one’s race cannot be changed. You’ve been brainwashed my friend. But I digress.

JetBoy on May 15, 2008 at 4:37 PM

JetBoy, without arguing about homosexuality in general, do you think it’s impossible for someone to choose to be gay? I’m not saying all gays or even the majority.

Esthier on May 15, 2008 at 4:44 PM

Homosexuality is not ‘immutable’. People change back and forth all the time.Vanceone

Only if you are born bi-sexual.

Haldol on May 15, 2008 at 4:44 PM

Why must we choose that only heterosexual couples can marry?

One reason is because only heterosexual couples can procreate.

What if they marry but choose not to procreate? Or cannot? Should they not be allowed to marry? Marriage is not simply for procreation. That’s a religious argument at its base.

Viscount_Bolingbroke on May 15, 2008 at 4:44 PM

JetBoy on May 15, 2008 at 4:37 PM

And the boy cherry picks as I said he would.

You do not read the bible as a whole or you would understand something about the Law of God and its fulfillment in Christ. But since the shellfish verses work for you, you use abuse them to further your ends.

You sir are full of folly.

al sends

afterdarknesslight on May 15, 2008 at 4:44 PM

Why must we choose that only heterosexual couples can marry? Isn’t that pretty much the definition of unequal treatment?

Viscount_Bolingbroke on May 15, 2008 at 4:38 PM

Perhaps it would be, if that is what was happening. But this is not happening. Homosexual couples can legally marry in any state in this nation, so long as they satisfy the given state’s marriage requirements. Most of the time, this is going to have an opposite-sex requirement. Let’s be clear when we describe what is happening. The discrimination is not on the basis of sexual orientation.

medguy on May 15, 2008 at 4:45 PM

Once the “activist judges” or “legislating fom the bench” strawmen (which I agree with when used honestly)

sure you do! please. this is the definitino of ‘activist judges’ but when it goes you way, its fine!! doesn’t matter what the law or constitution…just who ‘interprets’ it.

what will your argument be then?

yeah all those votes in all all those states are just from ‘ignorance’ laughable.

right4life on May 15, 2008 at 4:45 PM

This is a poor argument but it is the crux of my problem with militant gays. People who are probably not gay are coerced into believing they are and are denied the ability to have a normal life because of the cult like status of the gay agenda. Basically, gay marriage is not a right.

ThackerAgency on May 15, 2008 at 4:39 PM

Dude. I chill with gay people all the time and they’ve never tried to convert me. Don’t know who you’re chillin’ with, but you should end that association if you start feeling all slippery or woozie. Either that or your flattering yourself to think that they’d ever want to “recruit” you anyway. Not a serious argument. Try again.

INFDL on May 15, 2008 at 4:45 PM

People who are probably not gay are coerced into believing they are and are denied the ability to have a normal life because of the cult like status of the gay agenda.

ThackerAgency on May 15, 2008 at 4:39 PM

I keep looking for the /sarc tag…because you can’t be serious…

True, the vocal gay groups don’t do most of us gays any good, and they certainly don’t represent us all. I’ve never been one to make distinctions like “gay community” and such, as we’re all just Americans here.

But as for somehow coercing straights to think they’re gay? C’mon now…

JetBoy on May 15, 2008 at 4:46 PM

Dutch social scientists have observed a correlation between the campagin for same-sex “marriage” and the increasing disconnect between parenting and marriage.
Which nations in the devoloped world have not seen increased unwed births? How is an increase since 1980 an correlation to a legal change made in 2001?

reading is fundamental….

Dutch social scientists have observed a correlation between the campagin for same-sex “marriage”

right4life on May 15, 2008 at 4:47 PM

Look, it says in the Bible that Jews are the chosen people of the Old Testament. It doesn’t matter what they believe, that’s what it says. What it means is something that neither you nor I were meant to understand, but that is what it says. Religion is a choice, yes to answer your question.

ThackerAgency on May 15, 2008 at 4:41 PM

I actually had Christians in mind, not Jews (though they have the moniker of “the chosen people”). Many Christians, Saint Paul being one, were called to serve. They didn’t simple choose their church in the Yellow Pages. Some Christians vigorously fought against God when he called them to serve.

dedalus on May 15, 2008 at 4:47 PM

The right of any 2 people to marry is valid because those two are *people*, not men or women. Why must we choose that only heterosexual couples can marry? Isn’t that pretty much the definition of unequal treatment?

why only 2 people? thats very intolerant of you!

Right4Life, I’m merely arguing for the redefinition of marriage to be for 2 people to be able to marry. That is all. Your slippery slope argument has no bearing on the validity of mine.

Viscount_Bolingbroke on May 15, 2008 at 4:47 PM

Oh, sorry I’m so dense. Please enlighten me as to the conclusion I should have drawn from your post.

I didn’t mean that you were dense. I think you drew the opposite conlusion I do because of your rejection of God. It says in the prayer, Thy will be done on earth. So God care about what happens on earth and wants us to follow his rules whether or not we think its unequal or unfair.

He destroyed two cities, rained down fire on them because they were living immorally and not according to His law. Your response is ‘So what?’ Let him rain down fire on California.

The conclusion you drew is nihilistic. You’re saying even if the Bible is true you’d sooner God destroy California before you revise your opinion one iota. That is worthy of a slap to the head. (My head that is.)

aengus on May 15, 2008 at 4:48 PM

Dude. I chill with gay people all the time and they’ve never tried to convert me.

that says more about you than them.

anyone who doesn’t think that gay men like to recruit young men is dreaming. look at the whole catholic priest sex scandal. it wasn’t ‘pedophilia’

right4life on May 15, 2008 at 4:48 PM

Remember, it’s not just the bigoted Christians of the leftist imagination who are against gay marriage. The Dali Lama is against it. Homosexual marriage is certainly not allowed in Japan, about as non-Christian a nation as you’ll find. Indeed, Japan doesn’t even allow civil union or any remotely positive gay discrimination.

Go through the major religions practiced today and I think you’ll find varying degrees of tolerance and condemnation for homosexual relationship but no acceptance as the equals of hetrosexual relationships (the small and shrinking Episcopal Church is the one notable exception). Hinduism, Buddhism, Shito, the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church, Islam, Druze, Sikhs and Jains, even the pagan religion of the unconverted peoples – none of these, to the best of my knowledge, condones or celebrates homosexual marriage.

But 4 judges in California clearly know more about human nature and society than the philosophers and saints of our past. Augustine and Aquinas, Confucius and Buddha, Aristotle and Kant, these men and the thousands of years of their traditions and histories are wrong, wrong, wrong. All hail our new priest who correct the mistakes of our dark past.

Supreme Court uber alles!

Vote Sauron 08 on May 15, 2008 at 4:48 PM

I believe that this whole thing is a states right issue. The California supreme court has decided this issue. If the people of California don’t like this decision then they are perfectly capable of altering their state constitution to strike down this ruling. At least I think that’s how it works.

As a point of reference for Aengus, right4life and others if this issue ever made it onto a Virginia ballot I would vote against gay marriage. I would also oppose any attempt to change the U.S constitution to dictate to the states what their positions would be.

Oldnuke on May 15, 2008 at 4:48 PM

I know that many people believe that being gay is a choice. I personally think that sexuality is a choice – you can act on it, or not act on it. But who or what you’re attracted to, that’s not really a choice. Life would have been a lot easier if my mother had just gotten married and had kids (just like her mother), and she’ll be the first one to tell you she tried to act ’straight.’ My life would have been easier if she had been straight. She’s not, though, and became severely depressed when she lived contrary to her nature.

If gayness is learned, how do you learn it when there are no other gays around? I dunno, this issue is very personal to me, simply because I am the daughter of a lesbian. I don’t think gays should have families, but that’s tempered by the fact that I’m part of one of those families. Gays are people too, they have loves and hates and dreams just like we do. Just because your religion says that homosexuality is evil doesn’t mean that everybody believes that too, or that you can shove that people’s faces. Of course, *some* gays need to stop shoving their bedroom business into faces too (but not every gay person does that. For every one you see at the Folsom St. Fair, there are probably 5 that you’ll never see anywhere.).

the goddess anna on May 15, 2008 at 4:49 PM

You do not read the bible as a whole or you would understand something about the Law of God and its fulfillment in Christ. But since the shellfish verses work for you, you use abuse them to further your ends.

You sir are full of folly.

al sends

afterdarknesslight on May 15, 2008 at 4:44 PM

So you simply dismiss the “shellfish verses” then? Or write them off as some old code we need not follow anymore? Just the gay part is still relevant?

You haven’t made a point…do you take the Bible in it’s entirety?

And again, Jesus never once mentioned homosexuality. Not once. If it were so important, don’t you think He sould have said something?

JetBoy on May 15, 2008 at 4:49 PM

I’m merely arguing for the redefinition of marriage to be for 2 people to be able to marry. That is all. Your slippery slope argument has no bearing on the validity of mine.

anyone who thinks this stops at 2 people is dreaming.

right4life on May 15, 2008 at 4:49 PM

I chill with gay people all the time and they’ve never tried to convert me.

INFDL on May 15, 2008 at 4:45 PM

That would offend me. I’m reasonably attractive and fit. If I had a lesbian friend, she should want to sleep with me.

/Joke.

Esthier on May 15, 2008 at 4:49 PM

INFDL on May 15, 2008 at 4:45 PM
JetBoy on May 15, 2008 at 4:46 PM

When I was in college I was actually sexually harrassed by a gay dude. The gay community wants to indocrinate kids EVEN BEFORE THEY KNOW WHAT SEX IS! How do you think the Palestinians have kids that say ‘death to America’? They are TAUGHT. If you teach kids to be gay in gradeschool, they might think that that’s how it is supposed to be.

I don’t have a problem with sexual orientation. Women are amazingly hot. My problem is I can’t pick just one and I hope I can marry several of them and have like hundreds of kids. The more gay guys, the more AIDS, but hey, more women for me – not my problem. . . but I don’t want to worry about indoctrinating my hundreds of kids into thinking that they are something that they are not. I want thousands of grandkids.

ThackerAgency on May 15, 2008 at 4:49 PM

So you simply dismiss the “shellfish verses” then? Or write them off as some old code we need not follow anymore? Just the gay part is still relevant?

how hard is it to differentiate between the moral and ceremonial law…and yes Jesus declared all foods clean:

Mark 7:18 (NIV) “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him ‘unclean’?
Mark 7:19 (NIV) For it doesn’t go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods “clean.”)

right4life on May 15, 2008 at 4:50 PM

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