NYT: McCain “sealed away” from the lessons of Vietnam
posted at 6:20 pm on May 14, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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In the New York Times’ upcoming edition of their Sunday magazine, they take a look at John McCain’s divergent views of the Iraq War from those of his fellow Vietnam veterans. In The McCain Doctrines, Matt Bai reports that most of these colleagues (with the noted exception of Bob Kerrey) attribute McCain’s support for Iraq to the fact that he didn’t serve on the ground in Vietnam — and that his years as a POW somehow “sealed” him away from the war’s lessons:
There is a feeling among some of McCain’s fellow veterans that his break with them on Iraq can be traced, at least partly, to his markedly different experience in Vietnam. McCain’s comrades in the Senate will not talk about this publicly. They are wary of seeming to denigrate McCain’s service, marked by his legendary endurance in a Hanoi prison camp, when in fact they remain, to this day, in awe of it. And yet in private discussions with friends and colleagues, some of them have pointed out that McCain, who was shot down and captured in 1967, spent the worst and most costly years of the war sealed away, both from the rice paddies of Indochina and from the outside world. During those years, McCain did not share the disillusioning and morally jarring experiences of soldiers like Kerry, Webb and Hagel, who found themselves unable to recognize their enemy in the confusion of the jungle; he never underwent the conversion that caused Kerry, for one, to toss away some of his war decorations during a protest at the Capitol. Whatever anger McCain felt remained focused on his captors, not on his own superiors back in Washington.
Not all of McCain’s fellow veterans subscribe to the theory that the singularity of his war experience has anything to do with his intransigence on Iraq. (Bob Kerrey, for one, told me that while he was aware of this argument, he has never believed it.) But some suspect that whatever lesson McCain took away from his time in Vietnam, it was not the one that stayed with his colleagues who were “in country” during those years — that some wars simply can’t be won on the battlefield, no matter how long you fight them, no matter how many soldiers you send there to die.
“McCain is my friend and brother, and I love him dearly,” Max Cleland, Georgia’s former Democratic senator, told me when we talked last month. “But I think you learn something fighting on the ground, like me and John Kerry and Chuck Hagel did in Vietnam. This objective of ‘hearts and minds’? Well, hello! You didn’t know which heart and mind was going to blow you up!
“I have seen this movie before, and I know how it ends,” says Cleland, who lost three of his limbs to an errant grenade during the battle of Khe Sanh. “With thousands dead and tens of thousands more injured, and years later you ask yourself what you were doing there. To the extent my friend John McCain signs on to this, he is endangering America’s long-term interests, and probably his own election in the fall.”
This sounds remarkably close to Jay Rockefeller’s accusation that pilots don’t care about the consequences of their actions. Last month, he trotted out that explanation as a way to minimize McCain’s military experience. Unfortunately, it insulted the service of McCain as well as thousands of pilots currently serving in the nation’s military, and Rockefeller eventually apologized.
Now we have unnamed fellow veterans claiming that McCain doesn’t understand war enough because of his captivity for the last five years of the Vietnam War. That is simply absurd. Cleland says that he didn’t know which heart and mind would blow him up, but McCain didn’t have to wonder at all which would torture him. He got a good, close look at the evil that totalitarians produce for over five years “on the ground”. How exactly does being forced into the captivity of the enemy “seal” one away from their tactics and their motivations?
Furthermore, when McCain got out, he got himself an assignment at the National War College to study the war and its lessons in great detail. As far as is known, none of his colleagues bothered to do the same. McCain also served for over twenty years on Senate committees overseeing the armed services and their strategies and tactics after having studied them through the NWC. For almost 40 years, McCain has kept himself not just informed but critically involved in matters of national security and defense.
The men named by Bai served their country well, but which of them have that kind of experience, study and track record? Laughably, Bai never quite asks how Kerry’s three months in-country trumps McCain’s years of imprisonment and study (his first tour was in the blue-water Navy offshore of Vietnam. not “on the ground”). Furthermore, between himself and either Democratic candidate, which one has the most qualifications to serve as Commander in Chief and to develop policies for national security?
If the Times wants to argue that McCain doesn’t understand Vietnam, they’ll have to do better at explaining how all of that experience handicaps his perspective. Once again, we have another non-story, albeit one with more interesting background.
Addendum: One minor point. Cleland did not lose his extremities as a consequence of the battle of Khe Sanh. He lost them thanks to someone else’s mistake in dropping a live grenade near Cleland, and his attempt to pick it up thinking he himself had dropped it. It didn’t happen during the battle at all. That doesn’t lessen the sacrifice Cleland made for his country or his amazing courage in overcoming his severe injuries, but Bai should have done a little more research in writing this piece.
Update: Bai also uses the Basra Narrative here, too, in drawing parallels between Iraq and Vietnam:
Still, in this current conflict there are echoes of Vietnam that have grown too loud to easily ignore. Both conflicts were entered into under pretenses that were later widely discredited. Reports from the front in Iraq depict American soldiers who find it difficult to discern friends from enemies as they try to navigate an unfamiliar culture, language and landscape. American leaders are talking yet again about transferring responsibility for the war to local forces and the police, but Iraqization doesn’t seem to be faring a whole lot better than Vietnamization did; last month, some 1,000 Iraqi troops deserted during a crucial battle in Basra.
Bai fails to mention that the Iraqi Army prevailed in Basra, which his own newspaper finally acknowledged a few days ago. They also forced the Mahdis to surrender Sadr City, and now are about to take on AQI in Mosul.
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What does Ollie North say about all this?
Chakra Hammer on May 14, 2008 at 6:23 PM
more smears from this anti American rag
elduende on May 14, 2008 at 6:25 PM
I recommend they all read “Leading the Way: How Vietnam Veterans Rebuilt the U. S. Military: an Oral History” by Al Santoli
Zorro on May 14, 2008 at 6:26 PM
True, but consider the source, it’s the NYT’s!!
No bias here, move along…nothing to see here!
Liberty or Death on May 14, 2008 at 6:27 PM
- The Cat
MirCat on May 14, 2008 at 6:28 PM
It has its points and if McCain was not the voracious student of history that he was it might hold some weight.
Webb at least has the stones to send his son to the fight, like McCain.
Squid Shark on May 14, 2008 at 6:29 PM
Also, Before McCain was shot down their was a huge accident on USS Forrestal, he saw carnage up close and personal, and still chose to go to Vietnam.
Chakra Hammer on May 14, 2008 at 6:29 PM
Nobody “sends” their sons, they choose to go.
Chakra Hammer on May 14, 2008 at 6:31 PM
I would like to know who these Vets are.
And furthermore on the NYT paper concerning the GI bill… IAVA said that the vote was being Delayed due to…. a small group of Democrats: IAVA
upinak on May 14, 2008 at 6:31 PM
Sorry to state the obvious, but I do think it helps the Republicans and McCain when the NYT speaks ill of them. It’s hard to imagine many people think it’s impartial. And with Kos and HuffPo and the cable channels, it’s easy to see why its fading fast. It’s an irrelevant, biased dinosaur. I just don’t see it influencing American politics so much anymore.
JiangxiDad on May 14, 2008 at 6:32 PM
Sorry Captain Nitpick. At least he has the stones not to coddle his kid, like Gore’s dad.
At least he raised his son right.
Squid Shark on May 14, 2008 at 6:32 PM
But only if you raise them right.
kirkill on May 14, 2008 at 6:33 PM
I want some coverage for my damn Masters Degree so I can compete in the market.
Squid Shark on May 14, 2008 at 6:34 PM
Hold on let me get my WAAAAABULANCE! Suck it up there Sparky! If you didn’t serve, not my problem!
upinak on May 14, 2008 at 6:36 PM
The DU kids list that as one of the five aircraft McCain downed to become a “reverse ace.”
The easiest way for McCain to win the election would be to fund a 527 and let DU’ers and Koskids run it.
rw on May 14, 2008 at 6:37 PM
Comparing the current global war on terrorists with Vietnam is all the left has. They have faith. hope. change. that the USA will fail miserably. They make me sick.
kirkill on May 14, 2008 at 6:39 PM
I am serving “Wahhhramedic”, thats the point really, there is no coverage for my masters :)
Squid Shark on May 14, 2008 at 6:39 PM
He wasnt a super pilot, but you dont have to be one to fly a pig like the A-4.
Squid Shark on May 14, 2008 at 6:40 PM
Quote anything they write that would indicate they in any way question or doubt gruesome details of his time in captivity as they are widely known.
freevillage on May 14, 2008 at 6:42 PM
Oh and the fact that “Vietnamization” WAS working; the last two years of the war were almost exclusively Vietnamese-run and were successful at beating back the Minh forces - until the Democrat Congress swept in as a result of Watergate pulled the the rug out from under South Vietnam by cutting off ALL assistance.
All this talk about Exit Iraq Now!(tm) because it’s hurting our image around the world and other shit is pure bunk. Fuck people, geopolitics NOT a popularity contest. The difference between now and later is not that they’ll like us more, they won’t. The difference is that they’ll TRUST us less. We can’t seem to keep our word or finish what we started.
JeffWeimer on May 14, 2008 at 6:43 PM
I reccomend reading Faith of my Fathers and then watching the movie which puts it into gross detail. (excluding the innacurate fairy tale marriage storyline)
Squid Shark on May 14, 2008 at 6:43 PM
There isn’t? You sure? I gotta friend who is doing his Mathmetic Masters and still getting it. Not a whole lot but enough. I have no asked him what he is doing or did to get it.
upinak on May 14, 2008 at 6:44 PM
his airplane wasn’t even launched, just sitting on the deck.
Chakra Hammer on May 14, 2008 at 6:46 PM
Yeah, but it is not the “serve and then go to school after” kind of coverage for officers. It is a “We will pay, just sign on the dotted line for some more time”
Squid Shark on May 14, 2008 at 6:46 PM
I don’t see how they can claim that he “downed” something that was never up in the first place.
Chakra Hammer on May 14, 2008 at 6:49 PM
I also read Faith of My Fathers and recommend it highly. As I recall, McCain disagreed with the way the war was being fought, favoring a more aggressive strategy to end it sooner. He describes how he and fellow POWs cheered as they heard bombs falling on Hanoi.
mikeyboss on May 14, 2008 at 6:50 PM
OK, I will. I just want to make sure though. Is there any context for your recommendation? My point was that Ed was clearly lying about NYT’s intent.
They make a questionable point that someone in captivity essentially loses objectivity as their animosity is understandably directed at the captors. However, nowhere do they claim the reason McCain has wrong (in their estimation) views is because he had it too nice in Vietnam.
So my implied question to Ed was: why lie?
freevillage on May 14, 2008 at 6:50 PM
Exactly why I’ll never vote for your party….ever. I remember all too well how it ended and the Dem stink was all over it.
Limerick on May 14, 2008 at 6:51 PM
I’m also listening now to a very interesting book called Upstream, the Rise of Conservatism, by Regnery. I’m learning a ton.
mikeyboss on May 14, 2008 at 6:53 PM
I re-enlisted.. been over 10 yrs for me. I am getting the GI bill again, and some more money wouldn’t be bad. I would like to be able to finish my college and lets face it, it isn’t like you got a lot on the current GI bill now. On the Current/Old GI Bill, you could do community college courses to get into the State Universities, but I do not have a community college in my State and I am not looking forward to paying an extra 10K for classes that I can take at a community one for 70 to 85% less depending on State.
Besides going back in I am looking to the future… as you are.
upinak on May 14, 2008 at 6:55 PM
That is the case, and he was not shy in describing the real problems POW’s had coming home.
Squid Shark on May 14, 2008 at 6:55 PM
Tell me about it, the only law school near my duty station (Jacksonville) costs about 27K a year.
Squid Shark on May 14, 2008 at 6:56 PM
I thought he blew himself up on an airport tarmac.
Buy Danish on May 14, 2008 at 6:57 PM
True, but at least you are “near” one. I on the other hand live in a great State for geological degrees, but will ask you for your first born for the simple math, english and history classes.
upinak on May 14, 2008 at 6:58 PM
Because McCain is on the record regarding his views on the war while in captivity and before he was captured. This is just more irresponsible journalism by the NYT.
Squid Shark on May 14, 2008 at 6:59 PM
OK, your point is well taken. However, how do you go from this to “they think McCain was in a real Hilton”?
freevillage on May 14, 2008 at 7:00 PM
That is the question. Who are these supposed Veterans (besides Webb) who are saying that. No veteran in thier right mind would say that.
upinak on May 14, 2008 at 7:01 PM
Actually, the quote was “They must think he stayed at a real Hilton.” That doesn’t imply a direct quote, it’s saying that that must be what they think if they’re going to say he was “sealed away” from the lessons of Vietnam.
amerpundit on May 14, 2008 at 7:03 PM
Question not the reality based community, if you wish to have your sanity remain intact.
rw on May 14, 2008 at 7:05 PM
WTF? Their entire logic is the exact opposite of that. It’s also wrong as Squid Shark has demonstrated but where would one even begin to suspect that it is possible they have something like that in mind?
Once again, show me a quote written by the NYT, which would make it more likely that they think what Ed accused them of thinking.
freevillage on May 14, 2008 at 7:07 PM
Didn’t he take AA fire, and still drop his bombs on target as he was going down?
I mean, I don’t know, it sounds like he was at least a pretty good pilot.
apollyonbob on May 14, 2008 at 7:08 PM
I see Ed covered the true source of Cleland’s horrible accident in his addendum, but unlike Ed I don’t think it’s a “minor point” but is part of the Lefts unceasing attempts at myth making.
Buy Danish on May 14, 2008 at 7:09 PM
I don’t think the objection is that NYT claimed McCain had it too nice, but that they used language that insinuated same; and the natural conclusion of their argument implies as much.
It’s all there between the lines, if you choose not to ignore it. Saying McCain was “sealed away” from the costs of the Vietnam war is unnecessarily glib and naively simplistic. The thrust of the article is that because McCain didn’t experience the horrors on the ground in Vietnam, he couldn’t understand the tragedy of Vietnam. This only makes sense with the implication that McCain didn’t experience the horrors of Vietnam at all, which is offensive and absurd.
Given the NYT’s history of manufacturing smears about McCain, I don’t think they deserve the benefit of anyone’s doubt as to their intentions.
RightOFLeft on May 14, 2008 at 7:11 PM
“And yet in private discussions with friends and colleagues, some of them have pointed out that McCain, who was shot down and captured in 1967, spent the worst and most costly years of the war sealed away, both from the rice paddies of Indochina and from the outside world. ”
“But some suspect that whatever lesson McCain took away from his time in Vietnam, it was not the one that stayed with his colleagues who were “in country” during those years — that some wars simply can’t be won on the battlefield, no matter how long you fight them, no matter how many soldiers you send there to die.”
Because of his time in captivity, he was “sealed away” from the lessons. If they think he was “sealed away” from the lessons and horrors of war, they must not understand the experience he had.
amerpundit on May 14, 2008 at 7:13 PM
last post should’ve read “objection is that NYT explicitly claimed…”
RightOFLeft on May 14, 2008 at 7:14 PM
Ok, you know what? Go to hell. Learn to respect your opponent in a debate, then I’ll talk to you. I can’t repeat the same question three times.
freevillage on May 14, 2008 at 7:16 PM
OK.
freevillage on May 14, 2008 at 7:17 PM
Are they trying to shrink their circulation even further?
Theworldisnotenough on May 14, 2008 at 7:18 PM
Ann Coulter wrote a nice historically accurate piece about Cleland’s mishap and took a hell of a lot of heat for it.
It’s intellectually dishonest to say he lost his limbs in the battle. But, yet again, liberals know if they say it over and over again it will eventually become true.
NTWR on May 14, 2008 at 7:18 PM
What? How did I disrespect you? You’re the only one who seems to have a problem with Ed’s caption.
amerpundit on May 14, 2008 at 7:24 PM
To the gents wailing about GI bennies for education: BTW, I served in Nam and I had to do two jobs to go to college with the bennies I got….. suck it up. Oh, and you DON’T want to know what Patton thought about veterans wanting bennies.
I had the same thought about McCain being in the air versus me on the ground. Then I thought better. He served and went through hell afterwards, that’s all one needs to know.Oh, one more thing, I’m not voting for McCain…. this conservative is writing in my deceased father’s honored name.
MNDavenotPC on May 14, 2008 at 7:27 PM
This is how WIKI explains that Cleland lost his limbs in battle.
C
Buy Danish on May 14, 2008 at 7:29 PM
Considering that the main lesson of Vietnam would seem to be don’t elect a Dem Congress then whats the prob?
aengus on May 14, 2008 at 7:29 PM
I think this picture provides an effective rebuttal
http://bp1.blogger.com/_SCjVUmrlWDc/SChFJYr68SI/AAAAAAAACMs/XWRwZdqjx64/s1600-h/2008.05.11+Honor.jpg
rbb on May 14, 2008 at 7:43 PM
McCain doesn’t correctly understand much of anything; IMHO.
But nonetheless, this stupid article from the NYT will probably have the opposite effect on McCain’s support than they intended… Just like all of their other stupid hit pieces on him. Their target audience already thinks McCain is Bushitler II, and the mediocrats are more likely to get another dose of sympathy for him because of this article, and be more likely to give him their vote.
LegendHasIt on May 14, 2008 at 7:46 PM
Sounds like the NYT is running a clean and ethical campaign.
jukin on May 14, 2008 at 7:48 PM
I had a client who was one of the last soldiers rescued from a POW camp in the Philippines. There was only a few hundred of them left alive. He had a scar on his back as big as the palm of my hand, how he survived in those conditions with that wound is beyond me. I think he felt like he knew the Japanese pretty damn well after more than 3 years of captivity.
And I bet McCain feels like he had a pretty good idea about what the Vietnamese were about too.
Terrye on May 14, 2008 at 7:54 PM
So what they are arguing is that despite a career of honorable service to his country and 5 1/2 years of Hell, John McCain didn’t learn what the anti-war folks view as “the right lessons” about Vietnam, and so is less qualified to be president than Barack Hu-Never-Served Obama?
Sad, disgusting, and pitiful — but not surprising.
And I believe what the Democrats refer to as Swiftboating.
RhymesWithRight on May 14, 2008 at 7:54 PM
This sounds a lot like my liberal older sister telling me what barracks-life is like, despite the fact she visited my Basic-Training barracks for one day, and I had lived in them for 7 years!
Cleland, with all due respect to your position, age, and service, STFU! Especially when you bring up that Fabulist bum, John F’n Kerry, as an supposedly positive “example” of Service to Country…
dmh0667 on May 14, 2008 at 7:54 PM
Yeah, against the Truth! Bunch o’ pigs…
dmh0667 on May 14, 2008 at 7:55 PM
Who in the Hell writes this sort of crap?
You would have to be an idiot to suggest that being in the hands of the enemy, isolated, defenseless and tortured somehow doesn’t lend itself to “disillusionment and morally jarring experiences….”
Because he wasn’t a ground pounder he was incapable of learning the greater lessons of Vietnam? Say again?
Where to start with the Vietnam comparison……Bai clearly he doesn’t know much about the Vietnam War either.
moxie_neanderthal on May 14, 2008 at 7:57 PM
Wasn’t this slam a MASH episode? The Dems find reality in old TV series.
mred on May 14, 2008 at 7:58 PM
It goes without saying that the editorial staff of the NYT know the lessons of Vietnam much better than McCain, since the NYT editorial staff learned those lessons directly from their professors. McCain was only imprisoned there.
Cicero43 on May 14, 2008 at 8:08 PM
Bizarre analysis. Dems can’t use the chickenhawk argument on McCain. So now the narrative is McCain’s deluded and doesn’t understand the “real” lessons of Vietnam (whatever that means). He didn’t have a true war experience, at least not one he could learn from. One thing McCain probably does know for sure though. If one of his sons gets captured in Iraq he’s probably going to get gruesomely dead in a hurry. No long term captivity, no hope for release. McCain’s probably figured that much out.
Bennett on May 14, 2008 at 8:08 PM
Squid,
“Webb at least has the stones to send his son to the fight, like McCain.”
They don’t “send” their sons, their sons volunteered. And people whose children don’t go should not be denigrated for their children’s decision not to volunteer.
exhelodrvr on May 14, 2008 at 8:13 PM
It seems to me that he did learn the “correct” lessons of Vietnam quite well; thus his support of the surge and the strategy and tactics involved with it.
exhelodrvr on May 14, 2008 at 8:14 PM
The A-4 was not a “pig” in the mid-60’s, when McCain was shot down. For that time frame it was very good.
exhelodrvr on May 14, 2008 at 8:16 PM
Don’t you get it? McCain was spared the disillusionment of this:
John McCain thought the North Vietnamese were the enemy, when little did he know that it wasn’t them, but us!
Buy Danish on May 14, 2008 at 8:20 PM
NYT. Subscribe to it. Buy it off a news stand. Pay real money for just one copy, ever again. Shame on you!
petefrt on May 14, 2008 at 8:21 PM
Yeh, well, some of us can ignore complete b.s.
Oh, well, if they want to argue that Basra makes Iraq just like Vietnam, I’ll just sit back and watch.
MamaAJ on May 14, 2008 at 8:26 PM
McCain certainly needs to read H.R. McMaster’s book, “Dereliction of Duty: Lyndon Johnson, Robert McNamara, The Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the Lies that Led to Vietnam”.
MB4 on May 14, 2008 at 8:36 PM
:
and he’ll be almost as smart as you!
mymanpotsandpans on May 14, 2008 at 8:43 PM
You know he hasn’t read it I take it? I suspect McCain knows more about Vietnam than most people alive. BTW, MB4 were where you in 1969?
billhedrick on May 14, 2008 at 8:48 PM
freevillage, the impression I got was that Ed was joking. If you’re going to insist on literal interpretations of what are (normally on this site) humorous captions, it’s going to become frustrating and tedious for everyone.
DrSteve on May 14, 2008 at 9:00 PM
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I just looove internet tough guys. Especially liberal internet tough guys.
——————
Didn’t
ObamaJFK get us into Vietnam?I haven’t read it. Are they “lies” like the “lies” that got us into Iraq? You know, notlies?
And how come there are no books about the lies that got us OUT of Vietnam? Like “there won’t be a massive massacre” and “communism won’t spread in Indochina”? Or are there?
misterpeasea on May 14, 2008 at 9:01 PM
As someone who has gone through SERE-C, I’m am awe-struck at what McCain had to endure in Vietnam. To deny the enemy propaganda and intel through the most extreme of physical torture is amazing enough in itself. But when you consider the fact that his enemy tried to send him home early for propaganda reasons and he told them to piss off, it becomes the stuff of legend.
My 3 weeks was miserable enough. I can’t imagine 5+ years. This is a disgusting article and it’s author should be ashamed.
BadgerHawk on May 14, 2008 at 9:02 PM
e A-4 was not a “pig” in the mid-60’s, when McCain was shot down. For that time frame it was very good.
exhelodrvr on May 14, 2008 at 8:16 PM
Amen, the A4’s nickname was “scooter”, referring to its agile handling. It had a roll rate better than anything at that time. It was a nimble enough aircraft for the Blue Angels - twice. So I don’t know if you caould call it a “pig”.
Also, while we’re correcting errors, during the Forrestal fire, he was sitting in his aircraft doing preflights when a Zuni rocket from an F4 lit off and hit his (full) underbelly fuel tank. If you look closely at the footage of the explosion and fire, you can see him running away. So, he didn’t “lose” this aircraft due to any fault of his own, and he certainly WASN’T negligent and caused the fire. Stupid Dkos/DU fuckers, get your facts straight.
JeffWeimer on May 14, 2008 at 9:04 PM
I’m not entirely sure, but I think that I have just been damned by faint praise.
MB4 on May 14, 2008 at 9:04 PM
And taking the argument on its merits, how likely is it that McCain, who has spent the last 30 years involved in all manner of contact with people whose Vietnam experiences varied from his (from rehabilitation in hospital to the POW-MIA committees, plus his contemporaries across all the service branches he’s worked with on the various Senate Committees), managed to keep the relevant parts of his psyche walled off from that experience?
That is some weak tea. Totally unconvincing as argument. And you’ve got a knot in your tail about a caption?
DrSteve on May 14, 2008 at 9:06 PM
He hasn’t sent me his list of books read, but my guess is that he hasn’t.
Not if he hasn’t read H.R. McMaster’s book.
The answer is “hidden” in plain sight. It always has been.
MB4 on May 14, 2008 at 9:09 PM
Read the book. You can get a used copy in good condition at http://www.amazon.com for about $4 plus about $4 shipping. A great deal. Buy two and send one to Juan. Or send the extra copy to Joe and he can read it to Juan.
MB4 on May 14, 2008 at 9:14 PM
In Vietnam - google it, here in hotair.com
You will even find his rank listed. I don’t agree with MB4 on several facets of this war, but you must learn to sweep in front of your door before you accuse others. Here’s a tidbit - MB4 wouldn’t have had to go, but he volunteered, not once but repeatedly. It’s all here in HA.
Entelechy on May 14, 2008 at 9:18 PM
Coolio. Works for everyone right?
Elie Wiesel was “sealed away” from the lessons of World War II. I mean, he was just locked up in Concentration Camps so what the heck does he know about Nazis and War??
Menachem Begin and Natan Sharansky were “sealed away” from the lessons of communism. I mean, they were locked up in gulags so what do they know about communists?
What works in John McCain’s case should work in everyone else’s, right? Or does it only count in John McCain’s case? Idiot NYT.
mjk on May 14, 2008 at 9:39 PM
I don’t know if McCain has read the McMaster book or not, but if you’ve read any of the McCain bios, you know that he is no fan of LBJ or McNamara.
juliesa on May 14, 2008 at 9:39 PM
One thing the the POWs learned from first hand observation is the effect that US politics had on the morale and the actions of the NV.
They had a front row seat, and they saw the direct effects of the actions of anti-American propagandists like Dr Spock, Ted Kennedy, Jane Fonda, ad nauseum. Many of them, including McCain, were abused if they refused to meet with the “peace” activists, because the NV knew the propaganda effect of these “meetings”.
Because they were living amongst them, the POWs could see that the NV were bolstered by these actions, and their strategy of winning the war on the US homefront was affirmed. The POWs also saw the effect that Nixon’s bombing of Hanoi and Haiphong had: better treatment for the POWs and a stronger position for negotiating at the Paris talks.
juliesa on May 14, 2008 at 9:53 PM
So:
McCain was ‘insulated’ from ‘reality’ by facing the enemy and his torturous ways, receiving one message.
While his colleagues, amid a cacophony of conflicting voices at home and the uncertainty of the battlefield, received another.
Then McCain came home, went to NWC, and digested the slow trickle of the cacophony in the way it was never intended by its messengers: all at once, with all the sociopolitical overtones unhidden.
And of course McCain received the ‘wrong’ message.
thirtypundit on May 14, 2008 at 10:01 PM
MB4, thanks for your service, and FYI, I didn’t accuse hi of anything
billhedrick on May 14, 2008 at 10:08 PM
See my correction later on, my beef is when peoples kids and they talk about making sacrifices for the war and they are not willing to pony up themselves.
Squid Shark on May 14, 2008 at 10:15 PM
McCain, like his idol T.R. is probably one of the most well read amateur historians in public life. Read any of his books and you will see it.
Squid Shark on May 14, 2008 at 10:17 PM
Great analogy
Squid Shark on May 14, 2008 at 10:18 PM
In that case, if your question was just a matter of inquiry, I sincerely apologize to you. Respectfully,
Entelechy on May 14, 2008 at 10:42 PM
I want to know who the “unnamed” veterans in the story are.
If any one of them has any association with the guy who runs “Vietnam Veterans Against McCain”, their word should be suspect in any way.
BTW, I really don’t talk much about the war in Vietnam, since it’s ancient history to me. I was born in ‘73.
newton on May 14, 2008 at 11:43 PM
I’m no fan of McCain, but the NYT is downright insulting the man, and it’s despicable.
NYT: You’re showing your (_._)
fossten on May 14, 2008 at 11:47 PM
It’s the NYT and the Libs who are sealed off from the lessons of Viet Nam: stand by your allies, learn from your enemies, keep the loyalty of your own “trinity of war” (citizenry, government, military), protect civilization, know what the enemy believes to be the Center of Gravity, constantly look for what works and what doesn’t, and be prepared to stand and fight for the duration.
njcommuter on May 15, 2008 at 1:54 AM
I’m pretty sure those were someone else’s medals.
His were displayed on the wall of his office as soon as it became politically expedient to do so.
schmuck281 on May 15, 2008 at 3:45 AM
So that’s why Kerry became such a scoundrel, while McCain has remained an honorable man! I always wondered about that. Thanks, NYT.
drunyan8315 on May 15, 2008 at 5:41 AM
And to make a point, is there any better illustration of the caliber of men that form the front ranks of our two political parties than comparing the impact on the one to 3 months of action, and the reaction of the other to 5 years of torture?
One sold out and became a false witness as soon as he figured out that being anti-war was a way to curry political favor, even as the other suffered for his country and never sold out, even in circumstances where many good men would have been unable to avoid doing so.
Democrats - what are they good for? Absolutely nothing.
drunyan8315 on May 15, 2008 at 5:53 AM
This is disgusting. The New York Times, of all people, is now swiftboating John McCain!
I demand that Barack Obama denounce it at once.
rockmom on May 15, 2008 at 7:42 AM
That may be, but the super pilots bring them back.
Not that he’s going for a Top Gun slot, or that it has anything to do with running for President…just sayin’.
James on May 15, 2008 at 8:02 AM
The left’s big criticism of the Bush administration was “chickenhawks!” Now that a genuine war hero who saw and felt the horrors of war up close is running, they need to smear him in favor of someone who never served, never saw combat and basically wants to surrender in Iraq — a “chickenchicken”.
rbj on May 15, 2008 at 8:48 AM
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