Hagee to apologize to Catholics
posted at 12:30 pm on May 13, 2008 by Allahpundit
He thought about it a little more, chatted up some Catholic friends, and decided that no, in fact, the Church isn’t the “great whore” named in Revelation. Whew!
“Out of a desire to advance greater unity among Catholics and Evangelicals in promoting the common good, I want to express my deep regret for any comments that Catholics have found hurtful,” Hagee wrote, according to an advanced copy of the letter reviewed by Washington Wire. “After engaging in constructive dialogue with Catholic friends and leaders, I now have an improved understanding of the Catholic Church, its relation to the Jewish faith, and the history of anti-Catholicism.”…
Hagee met with 22 Catholic leaders in Washington, D.C. on Friday to apologize for his comments, according to a source familiar with the meeting. Despite the McCain’s condemnation of Hagee’s anti-Catholic remarks, the campaign had no role in that meeting or Tuesday’s apology, according to the source who said it was something Hagee did because he felt it was necessary…
Hagee’s letter explains some of the harsh words he has used when describing the Catholic Church. “I better understand that reference to the Roman Catholic Church as the ‘apostate church’ and the ‘great whore’ described in the book of Revelation”—both terms Hagee has employed—“is a rhetorical device long employed in anti-Catholic literature and commentary,” he wrote.
Anyone at all here believe that Team Maverick didn’t use a little muscle on this? It’s not just that they want to try to put this to bed to eliminate the tu quoque when they go after Obama on Wright this summer, it’s that Hillary’s been beating Obama consistently among Catholics (by 27 points in Ohio and 40 points in Pennsylvania) and they don’t want Hagee stopping any of those disgruntled blue-collar Clintonites from becoming McCainocrats in November. McCain already admitted last month to Stephanopoulos that accepting Hagee’s endorsement was “probably” a mistake; I wonder if the campaign didn’t issue an ultimatum telling him either to repent or face the humiliation of having the endorsement formally rejected.
Exit question: Does this mean he’s rethinking his position on the End Times, too?
Update: A counterfactual to chew on: If McCain did reject Hagee’s endorsement, wouldn’t that put extra pressure on them to name Huckabee as VP in order to heal the resulting rift with evangelicals?
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A religionist calling group of religionists “whores.” What a revolting development! Is this Hagee clod mentally challenged?
saved on May 13, 2008 at 12:34 PM
I thought one of the great woman of the bible was a whore…
right2bright on May 13, 2008 at 12:34 PM
That’ll be 3 Our Fathers and 5 Hail Marys.
Little Boomer on May 13, 2008 at 12:36 PM
Threat neutralized.
Vizzini on May 13, 2008 at 12:36 PM
Thank God! Now we can move on from all these “guilt-by-association” attacks on McCain… wait, what?
Tom_Shipley on May 13, 2008 at 12:36 PM
In the May 5 edition of the Washington Times Weekly, he had a piece entitled, “Thanks you, Pope Benedict,” regarding the pope’s recent visit and remarks. This is encouraging, in that the things that divide RC’s and prots are relatively minor and non-creedal. If this guy could swallow his pride and take a second look at the costs vs benefits of harboring hostility towards fellow Christians, there’s hope that others will follow suit (if I may use an analogy involving playing cards without pissing off any Baptists).
Akzed on May 13, 2008 at 12:39 PM
I heard that sound byte; he sounded pretty flippant. Not much better than Obama: Try to wave it airily away, then when the backlash comes, throw your buddy off the train.
RushBaby on May 13, 2008 at 12:41 PM
not all evangelicals beleive what Hagee beleives, specifically his eschatology. These types think that the destruction of Israel in AD 70 was the rapture of the church as prophesized whereas Hagee and the Dispensationalist are still waiting for it to happen.
jp on May 13, 2008 at 12:47 PM
I think Mecca is a better fit for the Whore of Babylon than is the Catholic Church. (Yea, I said it.)
Catholics are wrong on a number of areas theologically, but they sure aren’t apostates.
Tim Burton on May 13, 2008 at 12:48 PM
AP, actually Hagee’s already had a meeting with a Catholic leader where he expressed regret and demonstrated, at least to that leader, that much of the drama was either taken out of context or resulted from ignorance (not malice or even doctrine) on Hagee’s part.
He also told a story of his helping some Catholic nuns in San Antonio, where his church is located, and of honoring them at his church for their service to Christ.
That blog provides a lot of context for this story and for Hagee himself in relation to all this
I guess I lack your cynical streak, but after reading about that initial meeting, I don’t think Hagee was pushed by McCain into this meeting. I think he honestly wanted to set the record straight.
I think much of the information has been gotcha politics to divert away from Wright/Obama and not much else. It’s odd that those who defended Wright demanded we not rush to judge without context (which ended as soon as Wright provided the “context”), but they never seem to be willing to look for or allow for “context” with Hagee. Wonder why that is?
wardrobedoor on May 13, 2008 at 12:49 PM
Interesting. Hagee bows to political pressure, and shows dishonesty either then or now. So much for his credibility.
This is why pastors should stay out of politics. Choose one or the other, but not both simultaneously.
fossten on May 13, 2008 at 12:50 PM
He cites Rabbi David Dalin’s work on Pius XII as one of the reasons for his change of heart. One of the best historiographies concerning Pius XII is “The End of the Pius Wars”, by Joseph Bottum. You can find it on First Things’ website.
This guy is crazy if he thinks that people accept this as absolutely sincere. IMO though it matters little.
There is a major gulf of difference between theological quibbles and a member of your campaign for the President of the USA spouting “GDamn America!!” at the pulpit. In fact, it’s all the difference in the world.
darclon on May 13, 2008 at 12:50 PM
McCain’s going to need Catholics this fall. He better brush up on The Church. Perhaps Sam Brownback can act as a liason. It would keep Brownback busy and out of trouble for a few months.
Vote Sauron 08 on May 13, 2008 at 12:51 PM
Good for him. After all, everybody knows that Lindsay Lohan is the great whore.
albo on May 13, 2008 at 12:51 PM
That’s not the only alternative to dispensationalism. Since “whore” and adultery in the OT are metaphors for idolatry, some commentators take the Whore of Babylon to refer to 1st Century Jerusalem (“We have no king but Caesar!”). Hagee’s backtracking might, therefore, signal a sea change in his eschatology, which would be breathtaking given his extremely strong zionistic tendencies.
Akzed on May 13, 2008 at 12:52 PM
Now we just have to get McCain to rule out Huckabigot as VP.
phronesis on May 13, 2008 at 12:54 PM
Wow, that was a weak explanation. Is ignorance really going o fly as an excuse? I can’t believe he’s got 19k people in his church. I will at least give him credit for not doing the “if anyone was offended” faux apology. That’s something, at least.
Laura on May 13, 2008 at 12:54 PM
Exactly. You can’t serve two masters.
Laura on May 13, 2008 at 12:56 PM
Pure nonsense. A Reformed preacher speaks out against the Catholic Church using the language in Revelation, and is fast tracked to be en par with Wright. Did he claim that Blacks invented AIDS to frame the USA, or travel to Germany with the head of the American Nazi Party to Europe to visit a neo-Nazi leader?
He must be White, he must be Conservative, and he must know McCain. The Catholic Church could care less, but let us not offend the delicate sensibilities of Black racists, Muslims and atheist Liberals.
Now that Dingy Harry has outed that McCain has shown his temper, I’m sure the race is over anyway. Angry White men can’t lead.
Hening on May 13, 2008 at 12:57 PM
Hmmm… so you think the RCC is prophesied in Revelation?
Are you shure that Hagee is “Reformed”?
Akzed on May 13, 2008 at 12:58 PM
Is Hagee a pastor or a politician? Nevermind, he answers for himself.
Spirit of 1776 on May 13, 2008 at 1:00 PM
Your point is well taken. But that raises another question – why should Hagee care what people think of his opinion of Catholics, especially if the Catholic church doesn’t care what he thinks?
Nobody’s perfect, and everybody wants to be liked. He’s sold out.
fossten on May 13, 2008 at 1:00 PM
Isn’t this the same lame apology as ‘I am entering rehab’?
Limerick on May 13, 2008 at 1:01 PM
Like clockwork, all the evangelical leaders are suddenly having changes of their hearts. Dobson, Robertson, Hagee…
If you’re a Protestant who thinks that the Church is the “whore of Babylon,” own it. Don’t cave for political purposes. I didn’t read the whole thing, but didn’t he just pretty much say “Sorry for the hurt feelings, but I understand it better now?” That implies a change of heart, but doesn’t necessitate one.
As far as I’m concerned, if C.S. Lewis was able to prove that all denominations agree on certain things, and those things are the ticket to heaven, then the “Catholics are evil” argument falls apart. Though I disagree with them on some theology, some of it sort-of makes sense, in a human way.
emailnuevo on May 13, 2008 at 1:01 PM
Hagee was quite offensive to Catholics and an apology was certainly deserved. Sure the link to McCain was far more tenuous than Obama’s link to Wright and the liberals were wrong to tar McCain with it. But Hagee himself had no excuse for spreading such bile.
phronesis on May 13, 2008 at 1:02 PM
Edit: I shouldn’t have said “if C.S. Lewis.” I just used that as an example (Mere Christianity) of the common ground. It should read “As Lewis was able to prove, all Christian denominations agree on certain things, and these are the ticket to heaven.”
emailnuevo on May 13, 2008 at 1:03 PM
The Catholic slams are regrettable and stupid but the world needs more voices like his standing up for Israel.
If we could just find someone with a little less crazy that would be great.
EJDolbow on May 13, 2008 at 1:08 PM
And now we’ll see how much forgiveness the Catholic Church preaches. Hagee interpreted the Bible. The Bible can be interpreted many different ways. The end times in revelation are not nice, they are not understanding, they aren’t forgiving. Most people are going to die. Most Catholics and most Protestants are going to die because of what is in their hearts and not what they do or say – that is what Revelation says. Don’t read it when you are alone or you will be scared out of your wits.
I will bet that most Catholics will continue to bash Hagee as a bigot for his interpretation of the Bible which he sources and explains (though he’s probably wrong).
I don’t think McCain had anything to do with this. I think Hagee is a scholar of the Bible and reads it to understand. The thing is that everyone who reads the Bible has an interpretation. Protestants don’t put any one person’s interpretation over another’s like Catholics do. The Bible says what it says. Through study, you can learn a lot about human nature.
He did choose one. He’s a pastor who preaches from the Bible. Are you saying that as a pastor he shouldn’t be allowed to vote or support a candidate like every other American?
ThackerAgency on May 13, 2008 at 1:12 PM
Before this flap I had never heard of the guy. I’m agnostic (grew up Anglican in Southern Baptist country) but he’s allegedly this national figure. Now I notice his cable show is on my dial in Central PA, far from his home base in TX. So I guess he is well-known.
How influential is he supposed to be, anyway? What was his endorsement supposed to represent voteswise?
DrSteve on May 13, 2008 at 1:13 PM
If being a good Christian isn’t quite fulfilling and you really need some huge epic conflict to feel important, maybe you should take up Dungeons and Dragons.
frankj on May 13, 2008 at 1:14 PM
Gee, that’s wonderful reverend. But I’m guessing that you didn’t wake up one morning and realize that the Roman Catholic Church is a whore and work it into a sermon as a throw-away line. In fact, I’d wager that you’ve used similar language in various official and unofficial acts as a minister over the years. So is this apology global in scope, or does it just cover this one recent incident of anti-Catholic bigotry? Either way, that must have been some meeting with “Catholic friends and leaders” to clarify in your mind the true nature of Catholicism.
scatbug on May 13, 2008 at 1:14 PM
As a Roman Catholic, we do not consider ourselves to be evangelicals! Evangelicals are more aligned with the Protestant churches.
Dread Pirate Roberts VI on May 13, 2008 at 1:15 PM
Really?
Everybody else apparently thought those were friendly remarks.
freevillage on May 13, 2008 at 1:15 PM
for what? i didnt know he said anything wrong against catholics and denied the media reports that he did.
Drunk Report on May 13, 2008 at 1:17 PM
I could post some snarky remark about how you need to know your material if the insult against the Church wasn’t so… blah. I’ve heard far worse.
crazy_legs on May 13, 2008 at 1:18 PM
I had to look him up to learn it, but evidently he’s pretty big. I’m of the Piper, Mahaney, Packer crowd myself so I don’t run in his circles, but he’s got 19k members in his church and his TV show is widely broadcast.
Thacker, he can support anyone he wants, obviously. In my opinion, any preacher who uses his pulpit as a political platform is dead wrong for doing so, though.
Frank, every real Christian knows that D&D sends you straight below. You heretic! You probably watch Harry Potter too. Die, heathen, die!
Laura on May 13, 2008 at 1:21 PM
Cranky old bastard has a real problem with voters who care about religion. He goes out of his way to ignore faith questions (as if being pro-life is all that matters to Christians). He continually spits in the face of social conservatives and evangelicals. This might be cranky old bastard’s first step in attempting to undo all the damage he’s done by being an arrogant liberal secular humanist prick for the last year or so.
Put another way, religion doesn’t matter to liberals and the jack-ass Republicans who deny that cranky old bastard has real problems with the GOP base. Religion does matter to that base and they are not supporting McCain just because he claims to be the least objectionable liberal Democrat running this year. His people are going have to do something as the general election gets cranked up or the evangelicals and social conservatives are going to sit this one out and let cranky old bastard and all the idiots who support him swing in the wind.
highhopes on May 13, 2008 at 1:31 PM
Buy Danish on May 13, 2008 at 1:31 PM
much better fit, especially now that we have a Pope who hasn’t kissed a Koran.
funky chicken on May 13, 2008 at 1:32 PM
A
So what? They got somebody to do the right thing. Isn’t that good?
funky chicken on May 13, 2008 at 1:34 PM
Probably a good thing considering the term “evangelical” is Protestant in nature and emphasizes the Gospels, personal conversion, and authority of scripture. In short evangilism by its very definition runs counter to the ritual and doctrine of the Catholic Church.
highhopes on May 13, 2008 at 1:37 PM
If you read the post I linked from Inside Catholic, you see Hagee explain the “Great Whore” comment.
He said that the Great Whore would be the apostate church made up of all kinds of people including Catholics and Protestants. I’m assuming (though I’m fairly ignorant of Hagee’s beliefs) that he was saying the apostate church made up of members of various churches (again Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, etc.) who were not really believers would use the form and structure of the Catholic Church minus those who were actually Christians.
I’m not familiar enough with Hagee’s specific theology, but I am with dispensationalism. It’s fairly common for those who hold to that eschatology to believe that the structure of the Catholic Church would be used for the apostate religion, once all the believers are raptured out. It does not speak to Catholic theology, only Catholic organization. They are the only Christian denomination and world religion with one centralized human leader making it easier for the apostate church to exert power and authority.
Again, I don’t know if that is what Hagee was saying to start with or not, but it is a dangerous and confusing matter for people ignorant of all of the theological differences and idiosyncrasies (the media for one) to start claiming bigotry, etc. when they don’t really understand what they are discussing or lambasting.
I’m an evangelical who holds to C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity idea – that as long as we hold to certain key doctrines which define us as followers of Christ, we can agree to disagree on other issues such as eschatology and denominational governance.
wardrobedoor on May 13, 2008 at 1:43 PM
Anyone at all here believe that Team Maverick didn’t use a little muscle on this?
I think it’s possible some prominent conservative evangelical leaders interceded without Sen. McCain’s direction, simply to heal a rift between Hagee’s supporters and conservative Catholics.
Hey, stop laughing–I said it was “possible,” not “likely.”
The real benefit to McCain is that he dealt with this issue before the media could spring it on him in full force (they wanted to wait until closer to the GE to pounce).
But what it means is that the media will be quicker to pounce on McCain in the near future. They won’t wait for the convention to get to work developing their narratives.
daryl_herbert on May 13, 2008 at 1:44 PM
McCain probably found out that in the North East, most Catholics are fairly Moderate/Liberal. He didn’t want to offend his base.
Snake307 on May 13, 2008 at 1:44 PM
Somebody mentioned Sam Brownback in the comments. That brings up a question for me- what about him as VP? I don’t like him on immigration, but I bet McCain does, and he is regarded as a religious conservative. Might help pull the Catholic and pro-life vote, and Brownback’s religious heritage would probably help him understand evangelicals better than McCain or Obama.
Not sure McCain needs any help in Kansas, though. Just a thought on the veepstakes.
cs89 on May 13, 2008 at 1:45 PM
The laugh will be on Hagee when he realizes he was helping the AntiChrist achieve the presidency.
Valiant on May 13, 2008 at 1:47 PM
That’s weird. My comment disappeared, but the quote stayed. Let’s try that again:
If Mac did intervene to persuade Hagee to have second thoughts, what do we need to do to persuade McCain to have second thoughts about drilling in ANWR and offshore?
As for theories about what is meant by the Whore of Babylon, I’m going with the theory (shared by the English Puritans) that Islam is the Whore of Babylon.
Makes sense to me :)
Buy Danish on May 13, 2008 at 1:47 PM
One wouldn’t suppose that a “great whore” would describe attention seeking, bigoted Evangelical pastors?
AbaddonsReign on May 13, 2008 at 1:51 PM
Does anyone have Hagee’s quote? Because he was on Hugh Hewitt’s show recently and he explained what he had said and it wasn’t about the RC church per se.
Would anyone be surprised if he was taken out of context?
landshark on May 13, 2008 at 1:56 PM
This was already pointed out in other comments, but I’ll reinforce with a second. How does rejecting Hagee cause a rift with evangelicals? It doesn’t.
Evangelicals believe what Jesus said, “Sell all your belongings and follow me.” What did Jesus mean by this? “Sell all your belongings and follow me!”
We (evangelicals) do follow Jesus, we don’t follow men.
kirkill on May 13, 2008 at 2:03 PM
I’ll second that one. (or 3rd since Tim Burton said it earlier). Makes the most sense.
kirkill on May 13, 2008 at 2:05 PM
Nope. Nothing I said even closely resembles your putting of words into my mouth.
What I said was that he clearly bowed to political pressure in “recanting” his position, a position held by most fundamentally Evangelical Christians and preachers, by the way. So he chose politics over pastoring this time.
fossten on May 13, 2008 at 2:06 PM
Even before this latest statement, Hagee said he was never speaking about the modern Catholic Church. I don’t know what he’s actually said about Catholics, so I don’t know. Maybe Hagee’s just not too bright. Anyway, according to him, he was talking about historical apostates and heretics, and using them as a preview of what apostates of the future may look like. He clearly alludes to Catholicism, but uses the same examples (of apostasy) that Martin Luther may have used 500 years ago. Whatever Hagee said, McCain hasn’t been sitting there listening to it for 20 years. That part I know.
RBMN on May 13, 2008 at 2:06 PM
Yeah, the only quote where Hagee refers to the RC church as the whore of babylon is Bill Donahue’s.
Refer to Pastor Hagee’s response - particularly paragraph 6.
landshark on May 13, 2008 at 2:09 PM
The “end times” ended in AD 70 with the sack of Jerusalem under Vespasian and Titus. All of the symbolism is from the OT and should be interpreted as it was used there. Revelation must have been understood by its first readers. “Don’t seal up the book, for the time is at hand.”
As for interpreting the Bible, St. Paul said that the Church, not the Bible, is the pillar and ground of truth. Only the Church has been charged with interpreting Scripture. It isn’t left up to spinoff “churches” or individuals.
Akzed on May 13, 2008 at 2:12 PM
Oh what a tangled web we weave when we mix religion and politics.
Nichevo on May 13, 2008 at 2:13 PM
So you did understand the nature of your comments even at the time you made them. You just have a “better” understanding now. And with this new and improved understanding, you recant.
There’s some whoring going on alright.
I get so sick of these dishonest, gluttonous, lard a** preachers all up in everybody’s grill.
paul006 on May 13, 2008 at 2:15 PM
Actually no. It is where they are wrong in their theology that makes them apostates. It is their very theology regarding indulgences, purgatory and the treasury of merit added to the work of Christ being required for their salvation that puts them in serious error.
shick on May 13, 2008 at 2:22 PM
then why did John bother to write the Book of Revelation around 90 AD?
and who is the Church? not the institution of the catholic or protestant denominations, but the church is the Body of Christ….people, not institutions.
sorry the catholic ‘church’ isn’t the Church. And when you don’t have Sola Scriptura, you are subject to the whims of a ‘leader’ and his interpretation of scripture. Thats where you get the doctrine of faith and works, instead of sola Fida. and of course then you can sell indulgences, etc.
right4life on May 13, 2008 at 2:25 PM
Paul himself would disagree with you.
1 Corinthians 2:9-15
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
fossten on May 13, 2008 at 2:29 PM
Paris Hilton begs to differ.
doubleplusundead on May 13, 2008 at 2:31 PM
that article by Alex Knapp is such a typical smear of the premillennial christian view:
Premillennial christians don’t think Israel will ever be destroyed. they do believe that Iran will attack Israel, which given the present circumstances, doesn’t seem too surprising. of course the christians who are not premillennial side with the arabs, and would rather see Israel destroyed.
typical smear job.
right4life on May 13, 2008 at 2:32 PM
Forgive me if I’m repeating anyone….well said. When I came to really believe I was perplexed at the virulent anti-Catholic undercurrent in evangelical circles, the worst being ex-Catholics. When the musselmen lock up all of the Christians in this country guys like Hagee won’t be as picky about rigid orthodoxy as they will about keeping their head attached to their torso.
Yeah, eventually clergy who dabble in politics make asses of themselves.
crashman on May 13, 2008 at 2:34 PM
There wouldn’t be a resulting rift with evangelicals because the vast majority of us don’t care about Hagee.
raiderdav on May 13, 2008 at 2:35 PM
Refer to Pastor Hagee’s response – particularly paragraph 6.
landshark on May 13, 2008 at 2:09 PM
Rev. Hagee states:
Throughout my life, I have often taught from the Book of Revelation. During these teachings, I have read to you the Apostle John’s writings about the great whore of Revelation 17. In my writings, I have never stated that the great whore is the Catholic Church.
“In my writings” . . .
If these ain’t weasel words, I’m voting for McCain. Oh, sorry, they are weasel words, and I’ll never vote for McCain. I have many reasons for disliking the man. His association with the likes of Rev. Hagee simply confirms my view of the lying skunk, McCain. Rev. Hagee’s attempt to back away from his words is an insult to both reason and faith. Likewise, McCain is the type of candidate who does more damage to the Reagan coalition every time he opens his mouth. Lying skunk indeed.
Angry Dumbo on May 13, 2008 at 2:36 PM
Interesting how you do the very opposite that Paul does with the text. He states that it is the church that holds up the truth. What do you do? You hold up the Roman Catholic Church.
The church will point to Christ while apostates will point to their church.
shick on May 13, 2008 at 2:38 PM
Haggee’s prior anti-Catholicism, as I understand it, was standard boilerplate Evangelical anti-Catholicism. Most Evangelicals/Protestants grow up with the bigoted ideaas of the Church taught to them. Haggee parroted that language for decades and was no different.
His statement is sure to alienate a lot of his followers and fellow evangelicals, who live and breathe anti-Catholicism. As it is, if he’s totally sincere, he deserves a lot of respect for coming out on this matter. He is sure to be attacked for it.
Sydney Carton on May 13, 2008 at 2:40 PM
So does Bill Clinton.
I’ll believe Hagee when he converts.
But he does make an interesting contrast with Wright.
Iblis on May 13, 2008 at 2:41 PM
Brilliant! He writes his sermons, Dumbo. Apart from Bill Donahue’s accusation, where does this “Whore of Babylon” quote exist? How do you explain his ministry’s work with Catholics? What seems more likely; that he’s being honest about his views, or his entire lifetime of writing, interviews, ministry, etc. has been an ingenius cover for his real views that only Bill Donahue seems to have actually heard?
landshark on May 13, 2008 at 2:42 PM
Shick
Regarding Purgatory, I’m not sure that a difference of opinion regarding 1 Cor. 3:11-15 makes one an apostate, given the patristic support of the RC view. Supererogation is good works by another name, and indulgences do not release the soul of another from Purgatory, as you might think they are alleged to do. So long as someone confesses Jesus as Lord and can faithfully endorse the Apostles Creed, on what basis doctrinal would you excommunicate him?
Akzed on May 13, 2008 at 2:43 PM
I am (painfully) reminded of this court case as exhibit A of your comment.
fossten on May 13, 2008 at 2:47 PM
The truth falls without the pillar, the pillar rests on the ground. Did the church find the Bible and lift it up? Or did the Church produce the Bible? I’m confused.
Akzed on May 13, 2008 at 2:52 PM
Please stop throwing the ‘anti-Catholic’ phrase around. Usually when I have encountered its use, its meant to suggest hatred from ex-Catholic evangelicals. I have yet to see this displayed and I pay attention to much of the Evangelical vs. Catholic debate. Usually the term ‘anti-Catholic’ really is only pointing to those who disagree with Roman Catholicism.
shick on May 13, 2008 at 2:54 PM
Miley Cyrus says, “You ain’t seen nothin yet.”
Laura on May 13, 2008 at 2:56 PM
So can we agree that “catholic” means the universal faith, or does that only really apply to e.g. the Westminster Divines?
Akzed on May 13, 2008 at 2:56 PM
How do you define “The Church?
Is it the pope? Or is it the aggregate of the pope and his cardinals? Or is it the priesthood? Or is it the entire body of catholics who are practicing? Or do you include casually practicing catholics?
Or do you mean the building?
Remember the movie Payback: It always comes down to one man. So who decides what the truth is? Is the church infallible?
fossten on May 13, 2008 at 2:58 PM
I’m 180 degrees on you with this. Look at your boasting in your church verses your attitiude of God’s word. God’s truth reigns regardless of whether the church holds it up or not.
God by His grace allowed sinful men to stumble upon His word. They did not produce the Bible.
And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. – 2nd Peter 1:19-20
shick on May 13, 2008 at 3:02 PM
The Church is a congregation of faithful men, in which the pure Word of God is preached, and the Sacraments be duly ministered according to Christ’s ordinance, in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same.
I’m not RC, BTW.
Akzed on May 13, 2008 at 3:03 PM
Am I to believe that all his “words” are sermons?
Insulting.
Angry Dumbo on May 13, 2008 at 3:04 PM
Sinful men stumbled upon the Word?! Romans 8:1 says that there is now no more condemnation etc. And your quote from St. Peter I paraphrased earlier. Certainly the Word of God is objectively the Word of God, but I find it helpful to see the Bible as both human and divine, sort of like the hypostatic union of Christ’s humanity and divinity.
Your view of the inspiration of Scripture is kind of Muslim, if you don’t mind my saying so.
Akzed on May 13, 2008 at 3:07 PM
More of McCain’s assault on reason from Roy Spencer.
http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=NTUzNWUzYTA4ZTkwMTVhZmM3M2NkZDc5NDhmOTRkMzA=
Angry Dumbo on May 13, 2008 at 3:11 PM
He really had nothing to apologize for. He said nothing that was anti-Catholic. Of course, Allahpundit is a schmuck when it comes to religious people. Here’s APs take: “Hagee offended Catholics, he should apologize.” Yet, Obama did not offend Jews by calling Israel a “constant sore”. See the difference here? Since Hagee is an “whacko Evangelical”, he’s gotta be shamed and humiliated. But Obama? AP says: “Yeah he’s not one of those religious dudes so he can offend who he likes without me having the balls to call him on it.”
That’s why you’ll never be a real journalist AP. Bryan was better, Ed is much better. You just plain suck.
Andy in Agoura Hills on May 13, 2008 at 3:11 PM
Bill Donahue, president of the Catholic League, is no patsy. I have seen him in action, and he is impressive and stalwart in his defense of the Roman Catholic Church. If Bill is willing to so graceously accept the apology of Rev. Hagee, who admits to have spent quite a lot of time talking to several Roman Catholic leaders, then I believe most Catholics will follow suit. Sincerely expressed apologies based on new knowledge are impossible to turn one’s back on. As an individual Roman Catholic, I am most willing to forgive the Rev. Hagee. When an apology even seems sincere, life is just too short to reject it.
marybel on May 13, 2008 at 3:14 PM
So the congregation of faithful men decides how to interpret the Bible? What happens if they don’t all agree? What if another congregation disagrees? Is everything put to a vote? Who breaks the tie? Who decides what “those things of necessity” are?
fossten on May 13, 2008 at 3:14 PM
Ouch. That’s gonna leave a mark.
fossten on May 13, 2008 at 3:15 PM
wardrobedoor and landshark, thanks for information.
I live in Hagee’s city. I’m not a follower, but years ago I used to catch his Sunday services on local tv occassionally. Some of things he would say about a wife’s duties came off as a little goofy to me, but he never had a rep as an anti-Catholic as far as I knew.
I always wondered how the Ursuline Academy became the Cornerstone School, and now I know, thanks to you. Nice story.
juliesa on May 13, 2008 at 3:18 PM
At least I have a definition. Would you say that the Church is indefinable?
The church at Corinth was certainly in disaray, but it was still a church. There was disagreement and division, there was lack of charity etc, but it was still a church by my definition (which is of course from the CofE’s 39 Articles).
Jesus died for His Church. Don’t deprecate it.
Akzed on May 13, 2008 at 3:18 PM
fixed:
Catholics are
wrongright on alla number ofareas theologicallycorona on May 13, 2008 at 3:19 PM
Actually, Jesus died for all mankind. If I were you I’d spend more time reading the Bible than memorizing Church sayings.
Gotta go for today, guys. Cya tomorrow.
fossten on May 13, 2008 at 3:27 PM
Granted, He died for all men, especially the Church (1 Tim. 4:10).
Thanks for that advice. I recommend to you Milton Terry’s Biblical Hermeneutics.
Akzed on May 13, 2008 at 3:51 PM
I don’t know, the guy had a chart, a pointer and a picture of a woman riding a demon so it must be true.
Another 30 seconds of Hagee and I’d embrace anything Christopher Hitchens has to say on the subject.
moxie_neanderthal on May 13, 2008 at 3:55 PM
Difference in opinion on the interpretation of 1 Cor. 3:11-15 matters if its context is ignored and replaced with tradition. Look at the very text you are quoting. What is the foundation: Christ. What is to be built on that foundation: man’s work. That work must be founded on Christ and will be tested. The good work will survive the test of whether it is founded on Christ. It’s also interesting that Rome says that Peter is the foundation. Peter himself said in 1 Peter 2:6, “For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
So based on your understanding of the patristic support of the RC view they would agree that something could be added to the work of Christ for salvation? Look again, I doubt you will find that. What I have read of the church fathers shows quite a different view of church beliefs. I can let each father speak for themselves. And that revealed a more univeral anti-purgatory viewpoint. Augustine himself considered the possibility but never suggested anything dogmatic such that modern Rome does.
History reveals a different reality. Rome stated that indulgences would diminish the time spent in Purgatory. And in some cases instantly, depending on the cost of course.
I will say the same that I have said to many the profess the name of Christ but live as if He never gave us a law to obey.
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ – Matthew 7:22-23
shick on May 13, 2008 at 3:56 PM
Please stop throwing the ‘anti-Catholic’ phrase around.
Well, I was a non believer who had a born again experience and studied my new faith in evangelical circles. And I eventually found my richest experiences in ministry in the Catholic church.
Glad you haven’t experienced the bigotry I did….should I declare your opinion based on your personal walk to be null and void because mine is not the same?
I’ve seen and experienced bigotry towards Catholics (who didn’t totally agree with Rome, as I don’t) from evangelicals and ex-Catholics. I’ll stop throwing around the anti-Catholic phrase when you become Chief Caliphate and restrict free thought.
Peace, and I mean that brother.
crashman on May 13, 2008 at 4:06 PM
All of the apostles and prophets were sinful men. God opened their eyes and they saw their sinful ways.
Then why add purgatory to the finished work of Christ.
Roman catholicism is so man centered. Thanks for the example. All the NT writers had this very same mindset while they were writing, “Isn’t God so lucky that I’m providing my wit right here in scripture.”
Comparing my view of the inspiration of Scripture to a muslim’s, of course I don’t mind. But since I parried I don’t think it matters now.
shick on May 13, 2008 at 4:11 PM
Funny. It’s highly unlikely that that position would ever be offered to me. I already go around restricting free thought. I look at someone, point at them and say, “Stop that stinkin thinkin!”
shick on May 13, 2008 at 4:19 PM
Shick, I’m not a RC and don’t believe in purgatory, works of supererogation, etc. I’m trying to show that Christians can disagree and not condemn one another for believing in them or not believing in them. Your view of RC’s is a caricature. Go to http://www.newadvent.com for instance, and look up indulgences. They do not believe what you say they believe about them. You might be referring the their abuse during the Middle Ages, but you should allow them to define their own terms.
As for the inspiration of Scripture, why is it that we can notice (even in English, more markedly in Greek) that the apostles and prophets’ writings bear the marks of their personalities, vocabularies, education level, etc? The inspired writers were not practicing automatic writing: “Wow, look at my hand! It’s writing another of those epistle thingies!”
Akzed on May 13, 2008 at 4:19 PM
…and Hebrew…
Akzed on May 13, 2008 at 4:19 PM
Good one shick!
crashman on May 13, 2008 at 4:27 PM
You know, in context, Hagee’s comments about the Roman church aren’t really that off the mark. I mean, they did kill a lot of people in the name of their religion… But this is me avoiding a discussion on religion since I’m an atheist. :D
Seixon on May 13, 2008 at 4:36 PM
The RCC killed a lot of people? How many did the Inquisition kill? About a thousand in something like 400 years. It took a while to pry the Church and governments apart, but now that that’s been accomplished that problem went away. But if you want real killers, numbers-wise, you have to look at the atheists like Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Pol Pot, I mean, you guys really raised the bar.
Akzed on May 13, 2008 at 4:43 PM
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