Video: Iraqi Army displays dead Mahdi Army fighters in Basra
posted at 7:27 pm on May 12, 2008 by Allahpundit
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Reminiscent of that video last year of Iraqi troops putting the boots to Sunni insurgents: It’s comforting to see the good guys in control, disquieting in how it leaves you wondering how “good” they really are. It’s tempting to excuse this on grounds that rough justice is better than no justice, or that transforming Iraqi forces from Saddam’s goon squad to a professional force is after all a process, so I’m sending you to watch it at Blackfive to see what U.S. soldiers think of it. Taking back Basra from Iran’s mafia? Ten steps forward. Using the equivalent of heads on pikes to impose order? One step back. Click the image to watch.
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Like deer hunting season…this must be southern Iraq.
right2bright on May 12, 2008 at 7:29 PM
Eh. Give the jihadi cockroaches a taste of their own media medicine.
Good Lt on May 12, 2008 at 7:30 PM
This kinda crap always comes back to haunt us. If I was a member of their MiTT team, I would ream them upside and back and make sure their superiors punished them for this.
right2bright,
It’s Bashra
bnelson44 on May 12, 2008 at 7:32 PM
But that’s still 9 steps forward, and I’ll take it. Let the Iraqi government and population decide if that’s out of line. The insurgent was operating in Iraq after all.
Hog Wild on May 12, 2008 at 7:32 PM
ThePrez on May 12, 2008 at 7:33 PM
Arab culture won’t be suppressed. Not even in the supposed “good guys.”
Cicero43 on May 12, 2008 at 7:33 PM
I believe, standing next to bloody corpses is the universal sign language for “we’re not f**king around.” I could be wrong.
RBMN on May 12, 2008 at 7:34 PM
Damn, I did it again. Everything from “Hey, that`s” is not supposed to be a qoute.
ThePrez on May 12, 2008 at 7:35 PM
let’s also not forget that some of these dead Mahdi fighters might be responsible for the deaths of those IA’s family members. This isn’t to excuse it but lets face it, none of us know how we’d respond to capturing and/or killing the people who either tried to or succeeded in murdering our family members.
Defector01 on May 12, 2008 at 7:38 PM
That was pretty tame compared with some of the car swarms and stomp swarms we’ve seen.
RushBaby on May 12, 2008 at 7:40 PM
Not that I dispute the need for discipline when they are employed by the Iraqi military, I must add.
RushBaby on May 12, 2008 at 7:41 PM
I have zero problem with this today, in the fiery and still war-torn crucible that is Iraq.
I will have a great many problems with it 5 or 10 years from now if this is how the IP or the IA conduct themselves.
Realistic chances of this type of thing still happening in 10 years? My guess is 1 in 5.
Mike D. on May 12, 2008 at 7:57 PM
I wonder where John ‘we must abide by the Geneva conventions and stay in Iraq for 100 years’ McCain stands on this one.
ThackerAgency on May 12, 2008 at 8:00 PM
My guess is that he would be against it, as you would be if it was your son.
bnelson44 on May 12, 2008 at 8:06 PM
It’s a cultural thing.
Akzed on May 12, 2008 at 8:08 PM
I believe that may just be arab culture (I may be wrong though), we arent going to like every little thing that goes on there….but like Allah says…ten steps forward, one step back…If we make ten forward ill take that one back anyday. :)
SoCalInfidel on May 12, 2008 at 8:11 PM
If you let your ‘allies’ do this to hostile forces, it comes back at you–Sooner rather than Later
It bothered me a lot 36 years ago in II Corps, and it bothers me from a distance now.
American authorities on the ground need to stop this ASAP
John J. Bradley, posting as…….
Janos Hunyadi on May 12, 2008 at 8:16 PM
Newsflash: these aren’t people who just robbed a liquor store somewhere. These are people who terrorized the city. It’s like when they used to gibbet gang members back in the old west; or when Mussolini was lynched; or the grisly slaughter of some quisling dictators of Former Soviet Union states.
I’m gosh-awfully sorry if anybody’s delicate sensibilities are upset by this. But with all due respect, if you’re not one of the people whose families were subject to the bombings, then I really don’t give a rat’s ass how you feel about the manner in which those people decide to celebrate the murderer’s deaths.
logis on May 12, 2008 at 8:20 PM
Yep, just because they are on our side doesn’t mean they have our values. That’s about the most polite way I can say it.
Maxx on May 12, 2008 at 8:20 PM
This needs to stop. It reflects on the Coalition forces since we trained and supported them in many cases. Whatever the locals think… it will not play well in Western media or support the contention that Iraq is becoming a better place.
lexhamfox on May 12, 2008 at 8:22 PM
If by “ASAP,” you mean “as soon as all of the terrorist in Iraq have been killed,” then that’s potentially something that could theoretically make some kind of sense - maybe.
Otherwise, your priorities are at least a tiny bit psychotic.
logis on May 12, 2008 at 8:25 PM
I agree and I approve. We’re not dealing with St. Mary’s Catholic Church’s softball team here, folks.
SouthernGent on May 12, 2008 at 8:25 PM
we hung Mussolini with his head down in the aftermath of WWII. not very proud of it but probably inevitable.
aso on May 12, 2008 at 8:41 PM
from chuck Z in the comments at Blackfive.
Um… where else in the hummer do you put dead bodies?
When we had to transport enemy dead, they went on the back hatch of the truck. of course, they were in body bags, but even if we didn’t have them, they’d have gone back there. If you don’t have the bags, or a guy in the top hatch (and I don’t recall seeing any) then the hood is the logical place to make sure the carcass doesn’t go skipping down the road somewhere.
Not sure where you got your info on this one Jimbo, but you may be adding spin where none is needed. Granted, our 7th century allies have much to learn about humanity and human rights, but if they were going to parade bodies around, I think they’d probably do it by dragging them around naked, behind the trucks. It’s more their style.
As for the horns blaring, that’s just the IZ way of driving.
warren on May 12, 2008 at 8:45 PM
After watching the video, go and read Iran’s Shifting Strategy, by Nibras Kazimi.
A no brainer for Tehran, really. Unlike Maliki, Siniora has no army he can count on and no American logistical support or air cover.
ganeshpuri89 on May 12, 2008 at 8:48 PM
People were pretty darn un PC when it came to warfare and dealing with enemies back in the day.
BowHuntingTexas on May 12, 2008 at 8:55 PM
I can’t help but get sentimental when I see our mortal enemies being pummeled…brings a tear to my eye… Thank you, U.S. military! May you all come back alive and experienced.
freedom_nut on May 12, 2008 at 8:57 PM
Fascinating
bnelson44 on May 12, 2008 at 8:59 PM
Yanked by Youtube.
ganeshpuri89 on May 12, 2008 at 9:00 PM
We should step back and let the Iraqi army conduct warfare the way it see’s fit.
Wars can not be run IAW the UN charter. At least the Iraqi army gets it.
What definitely needs to be done is to get these video cameras, etc out of the hands of our troops. They are there to serve and have no business running a news service. Embedded reporters - out!
The average man/woman/child on the street here in the U.S. has zero concept of what real warfare is. And unless our troops (and the Iraqi’s) are allowed to conduct real warfare, then the best we can every hope for is a stalemate. Which is what we have now, right? And for what reason? Because we try to comply w/the UN charter.
A soldiers job is to kill people and break things during time of war. They should be able to do it without impunity. DD
Darvin Dowdy on May 12, 2008 at 9:01 PM
Atrocities will happen in war. That doesn’t mean we should cheer them on.
Parading the dead is not “killing people or breaking things.” Like I said, things like this will happen, but we shouldn’t excuse it, much less approve of it. It’s like Abu Ghrahib, a relatively minor incident that turned into a huge propaganda coup for the enemy. Things like this matter, and we can’t be seen to be endorsing this type of thing.
VolMagic on May 12, 2008 at 9:18 PM
This seems trivial in comparison to Iraq’s love of honor killings. If we want to see civilization develop in Iraq, urging them to recognize women as human beings might be a good place to start.
Bugler on May 12, 2008 at 9:20 PM
Is it really a war crime to desecrate illegal combatants’ bodies? I thought they weren’t protected under the rules of war.
Tim Burton on May 12, 2008 at 9:37 PM
Too bad, so sad………….. this is nothing compared to what they have done:
Seven Percent Solution on May 12, 2008 at 9:49 PM
grow a pair. war is barbaric. except that. this is not new york city. The IA is not the NYCPD. You can not bring civilazation to a warfront. It is that kind of thinking that leads our soldiers to be fighting with an attorney in the foxhole with them. War is hell. Deal with it.
unseen on May 12, 2008 at 10:11 PM
Okay, I’ll try this one more time……
killing terrorists and ‘insurgents’ and other hostile armed forces is Good–very, very Good
Coalition forces should kill as many as possible, as quickly as possible: the ability to kill them is a Good Thing, and this skill should be practiced and perfected
But once they are dead–once you have killed them–what you do with dead bodies is a measure of what YOU are. Whoever it was that you killed, you now have only human remains; mutilating them is the act of a savage
some of You People on this thread are Not Okay…….
Janos Hunyadi on May 12, 2008 at 10:15 PM
Remind me again why we are wasting our time? If we wanted a foothold in the region then we should have carpet bombed the area into a glass parking lot then moved in and setup shop. This argument about bringing democracy to these savages is so laughably coy now that I am almost embarrassed to support the war effort. Maybe we can try it in Africa next.
ClassicCon on May 12, 2008 at 10:17 PM
Meh, sorry but I am unable to muster an ounce of compassion for a dead terrorist. I’ll leave the sympathy for terrorists to Rosie O’Donnell and their mothers.
Claypigeon on May 12, 2008 at 10:36 PM
We’re fighting an insurgency and time and again it has been demonstrated that in order to win hearts and minds you need to not only be lethal, but demonstrably better than the enemy. This sort of stuff is counter productive for a couple of reasons.
The bodies on the hoods are not overly bad, but it shows a lack of discipline and makes it easier for other bad decisions to occur. It also makes it more difficult to manage the message to our friends and enemies. If you want to have first rate troops you need to establish rules, lead by example and hold people accountable.
Tighten up the shot pattern, educate the troops and curtail stuff like this happening again.If this sort of stuff happens again, hold people responsible in a way that is communicated top down and is demonstrable to the troops.
moxie_neanderthal on May 12, 2008 at 10:42 PM
That is the exact opposite of how we acted in the Philippines. We killed them, desecrated them and let everyone know we meant business. It worked well too.
Tim Burton on May 12, 2008 at 11:25 PM
“Heads on a Pike” is only a negative in the west. They just refuse to fight PC wars in the Middle East. That’s the problem with the west; we do not celebrate our victories in an attempt not to humiliate our enemies. Meanwhile they celebrate their dead whether they win or lose. It would be hard for his family to declare him a hero while he’s being displayed as a hood ornament.
As I look at this photo I’m thinking; This vehicle is powered by 72 virgins.
Zaire67 on May 12, 2008 at 11:50 PM
Well, if you want to resurrect the old Black Jack Pershing tale and use that as a guide book for a lively conversation,be my guest. But the realities of what you’re suggesting would be extremely counter productive.
We’ve already seen the resulting maelstrom because we treated the known master minds behind 9/11 “harshly” and now you’re talking about pigs, firing squads and a pit burial?
I fully appreciate the idea of Pershing’s world view and methods, but you just can’t do that stuff in a vacuum anymore.
moxie_neanderthal on May 12, 2008 at 11:51 PM
Have we considered the fact that we heard about a lot of Hummers being commandeered by IA and IP going over to Mookie’s side in Basra?
Would probably be a pretty good way to try and discredit the IA coming into town. Uniforms and weapons probably would have gone with the “defectors” too.
TBinSTL on May 13, 2008 at 12:03 AM
That was back when we were still happy to win; now we are so overcome by guilt, I think we’re afraid of winning. I don’t know how I feel about this…on one hand, I think of the monsters we have here in America…sitting on death row, some of them getting fan mail, writing children’s books…and I think..I kinda miss the ‘bad’ old days when said thug criminal would have been hung by the neck with a crowd of people cheering him on to hell.
So, in the middle east, we have a thug terrorist cum hood ornament. Could he be one of those Al Quaeda guys that were cooking peoples children and serving them to the rest of the family as a way of getting compliance? Should I really care that someone decided to get some payback for something like that? Would I do any less to someone who killed one of my kids? I daresay if it had been one of my kids, the remains would be in a garbage bag instead of on the hood….perhaps given the brutalities the people there suffered from the terrorists, we should leave it up to them how they dispose of the thugs.
austinnelly on May 13, 2008 at 12:03 AM
Wake Up!
Somalis did far worse to OUR Forces in Mogadishu.
The same Troops that the Clinton Regime did not support!
old trooper on May 13, 2008 at 12:36 AM
I would have piled up the bastards and burned them!
old trooper on May 13, 2008 at 12:37 AM
Right on.
Johan Klaus on May 13, 2008 at 12:56 AM
The idea is not to do it in a vacuum; it take away the deterrent.
Johan Klaus on May 13, 2008 at 1:00 AM
…lauuhhginh so hhhared I cann harrdldy type.
91Veteran on May 13, 2008 at 1:17 AM
HEY, they all had their heads. THAT is progress.
La Mano on May 13, 2008 at 1:23 AM
“It’s tempting to excuse this on…”
consider it excused.
Kevin M on May 13, 2008 at 1:58 AM
Is this authentic? If so, someone needs their ass kicked, but we know the terrorist scum have faked videos like this and so has our own press.
dogsoldier on May 13, 2008 at 7:35 AM
The people that are “horrified” by this display are the same sort of folks that will hesitate when its time to take out our brutal enemy. They’ll hold back from squeezing the trigger giving this evil enemy a chance to duck for cover and fight another day.
The same sort that stopped the drone crew from taking out 200 Taliban at a funeral in Afghanistan a couple of years ago. Remember? And I wonder how many of those 200 have since taken the lives of American and Nato service people??
A collection of Pollyanna do-gooders. Which is why we’re now stalled in this GWOT.
These Iraqi soldiers know full well that they must send a strong message to any who would oppose the new Iraqi government. Authority must be established. We need to get our self-righteous nose’s out of their business. DD
Darvin Dowdy on May 13, 2008 at 8:53 AM
Your the kind of guy that probably blurts out the punch line to a joke before it is finished…
right2bright on May 13, 2008 at 9:04 AM
Desecrated? Not really - the most common desecration is to cut off genetalia and stuff them into the mouth of the dead person. Beheading is a biggie too. Desecration would be more parading the body around and spitting on it, etc.
This was some IA transporting the enemy dead (looked like near Basrah Gates to me). A tarp would have been proper, but that is for our sensibilities. I will be advising the IA I work with to consider doing just that.
major john on May 13, 2008 at 9:19 AM
They probably wouldn’t understand your anger, their superiors certainly wouldn’t punish them, and you might be burning some bridges. Best thing to do is explain what this looks like in film/TV/media, and why you should change SOP a bit to include covering the dead. If they hear you respectfullly (yet strongly) do that - best chance of getting a change. I’m going to try it, m’self.
major john on May 13, 2008 at 9:22 AM
Excuse me, but I believe if I remember history correctly…America and other European countries used to display the severed heads of known pirates on the bows of their warships as a warning against high crimes at sea…so cut the outrage.
MechEng5by5 on May 13, 2008 at 9:33 AM
I don’t think very many people are outraged but I think people are taking issue with the event for many of the reasons I mentioned above. Putting guys on the hoods of jeeps is not all that terrible but it does set a bad example and communicates something to the Iraqi troops and to the civilian population that is counter productive in the long run.
moxie_neanderthal on May 13, 2008 at 10:01 AM
Executing prisoners first of all is generally not acceptable except in extreme circumstances. As you suggest, imbuing the executions with religious prohibitions that are calculated to inflame Muslim sentiments is just not wise.
It is very doubtful that a Black Jack solution would have the desired effect of subduing the natives and would likely result in more attacks and more savagery. Do you really want to legitimize the sort of torture and savagery our enemies use? This sort of tactic would be a PR disaster and would cause serious repercussions. We don’t need to do that sort of thing to win. If you’re going to be the new sherrif in town it is best to demonstrate better discipline, higher principles and the rule of law. Taken together, these are the core elements of fighting a counter insurgency.
Read John Nagl’s book for more.
moxie_neanderthal on May 13, 2008 at 10:20 AM
Your flaw in your argument is believing that treating them honorably influences people in that region. It doesn’t.
Tim Burton on May 13, 2008 at 10:26 AM
You’re wrong on three counts. First, is the message. The audience is not just Iraqis in a particular neighborhood. In fact it is part of a broader and larger concept of a global PSYOPS war. Not only do Iraqis see this sort of stuff but Muslims and non Muslims alike, including domestic consumption.
Second, who we are and our mission. Part of our success in counter insurgency has been our ability to move forces downstream into community level control. This means smaller units living and operating in close proximity with the population. This affords troops the ability to begin to interact with locals and develop relationships with local leadership and the broader population. It is critical for our forces to be seen as operating by a higher standard than the bastards we’re fighting and the SOBs we replaced. This builds trust and avenues of communication, which are essential.
Thirdly, who are we supporting and what are their values: This sort of display shows a lack of discipline among the Iraqi troops. This has a wild west feel to it. This suggests a general lack of discipline which increases the potential of Iraqi forces doing other things which could be much worse and create problems. Shooting prisoners, throwing someone off a building, torture, kick backs etc..
You want a professional military that is seen as adopting the sort of esprit de corp that differentiates a thugish military from one that follows rules and orders. If you want the general population to trust the military and support the institution then it needs to embrace high standards. Local support gives back a hundred fold and enables our forces and Iraqis the ability to identify and eliminate bad guys.
Iraqis recognize that the Iraqi military is subordinate to US forces. Whatever happens is viewed as happening with the tacit approval of the US military and is reflective of the US. We don’t need the black eye.
moxie_neanderthal on May 13, 2008 at 10:50 AM
They count on us being queasy on this point. They certainly aren’t and view this as a weakness to exploit. Expect Teddy K to waive this picture around on the Senate floor.
Hucklebuck on May 13, 2008 at 11:05 AM
Surely a staffer can provide Ted a bloody shirt to wave.
moxie_neanderthal on May 13, 2008 at 11:15 AM
Meh…war is hell.
Wyznowski on May 13, 2008 at 2:51 PM
On so many issues, the self-proclaimed “worldly” view liberals take mirrors that of a spoiled child. Newflash Just because this kind of behavior wouldn’t be appropriate in the mall you hang out in, that doesn’t mean it’s not appropriate in a terrorized country.
But I do agree with what a lot of the critics are saying, it’s inappropriate to do this kind of thing without wrapping the body in a pigskin. It sends entirely the wrong message.
logis on May 13, 2008 at 3:26 PM