Report: Huckabee tops McCain’s VP shortlist?

posted at 2:15 pm on May 12, 2008 by Allahpundit

Just this morning, Bob Novak quoted Christian bigwig Michael Farris as saying, “I understand he is not under consideration.” Said Huck himself just two short months ago, “We have been given every signal that is not going to be considered.” And yet:

Mike Huckabee, the former governor of Arkansas and defeated contender for the GOP presidential nomination, is currently at the top of John McCain’s short list for a running mate. At least that’s the word from a top McCain fundraiser and longtime Republican moneyman who has spoken to McCain’s inner circle. The fundraiser is less than thrilled with the idea of Huckabee as the vice presidential nominee, and many economic conservatives—turned off by the populist tone of Huckabee’s campaign and his tax record as governor—are likely to share that marked lack of enthusiasm…

Let me add that a top Republican political strategist told me about a month ago that he also believed Huckabee to be the leading veep contender.

What’s changed in two months? For starters, remember that “Anyone but Mitt” campaign by Paul Weyrich and a bunch of other evangelical leaders? McCain can’t help but be jittery at seeing the Christian base taking a keen interest in his VP pick, especially with stories about their remorse for not having backed Huck in the primary circulating. Another thought: Romney’s always been touted as the logical pick for VP because of his fundraising prowess, to help close the money gap with Obama, but revisit this post from early March about Huckabee’s media savvy. By one estimate, the free coverage he received from the likes of Scarborough, Colbert, and the rest of the talk show circuit was worth $125 million in paid ads, more than Mitt could ever raise (especially with McCain accepting public financing). Having not one but two media darlings on the GOP ticket might convince the press to go merely hip-deep into the tank for Obama instead of face-first, like they’re planning. Finally, now that Barry O’s the nominee, McCain has both a worry and an opportunity that he wouldn’t have had opposite Hillary: Turnout among black voters in the south is sure to be huge this year, which, coupled with a weak turnout among southern evangelicals, could be lethal by putting red states in play. Adding a prominent Christian to the ticket solves that problem and frees McCain up to focus on the battlegrounds instead of fighting a rearguard action to preserve his base. Adding Huckabee specifically to the ticket, with his blue-collar populist rhetoric, holds an extra advantage in giving him a shot at Hillary’s base of working-class Democrats in Pennsylvania and Ohio.

All of which is to say, while Hot Air readers might not like this idea, I can understand why Team Maverick might. Exit question: Who else will be joining me now in writing in Hillary this year?


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Florida is not considered part of the south? Are you insane?

Let me amend that – if you want to take the Civil War sentiment, then there’s a case to be made, but in modern times, no freaking way. So yes, you’re insane, but you would have been right a century ago.

Laura on May 13, 2008 at 3:47 PM

Laura, I’m surprised that you can’t disagree agreeably. Florida’s demographics disqualify it from being a Southern state in the traditional sense.

No Irish need apply was what my ancestors experienced. No debunking needed.

Catholic hatred is alive and well in the South. I have experienced it. I worked with it. In the news industry. I am very sane. I’ll try not to return the compliment. over and out.

eaglesdontflock on May 13, 2008 at 4:04 PM

Vanceone on May 13, 2008 at 3:22 PM
Red Pill: I still maintain this: how do I know Huckabee won’t target my faith? I’m a Mormon–and Huckabee stirred up lots of anti-Mormon sentiment on purpose.

The question Huckabee asked was not appropriate for a political discussion, and later Mike Huckabee looked Mitt Romney in the eye and gave him a sincere apology.

The general Evangelical attitude to the Mormon faith is that I’m a follower of Satan; this is actively preached by most Evangelical Preachers.

Funny, but I’ve had that thought process applied to me by Mormons.

Despite this radical point of view pushed by said pastors, most Evangelicals won’t do much.

The Huckabites want to do more. For them, Mormons are part of the problem in America, best as I can tell. My faith has experienced so-called “Evangelical tolerance” in the past, and seeing as we lost lots of lives over it, to people who sound eeriely like Huckabites nowdays, I feel I have a legitimate worry.

You do not have to fear people who believe:

The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

John 10:10

You do not have to fear people who believe:

You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
Matthew 5:43-44

Now, I don’t consider you an enemy, but I do consider your constant use of “Huckabite” as a very mild form of persecution. Yet, my Lord taught me to love you and pray for you, not kill you. Your fear is misplaced.

Here’s the basic issue: For a Huckabite follower, religion is the paramount consideration. It trumps all. Red Pill, do you not agree?

No, I do not agree. The Constitution of the United States is the paramount consideration.

Is not then, a definition of theocracy: being governed by specific religious principles first and foremost?

You don’t know much about the Biblical principles that are the very bedrock of our Constitution.

The first amendment prevents a theocracy.

Having a Christian President does not create a theocracy. Do you think President Harry S. Truman created a theocracy?

The fundamental basis of this Nation’s law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teaching we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don’t think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don’t have the proper fundamental moral background we will finally end up with a totalitarian government, which does not believe in the right for anybody except the state.

–President Harry S. Truman

That’s the appeal of Huck–he’ll govern in a “Christian way!” That’s also the fear: he’ll govern in a “Christian way” that has shown little evidence of tolerating anything different than that way.

President Huckabee will tolerate all belief systems (and the lack thereof). Just like all of our Christian Presidents have.

Red Pill on May 13, 2008 at 4:18 PM

As best as I can tell, evangelical Christianity rejects revelation.

That’s news to me.

Esthier on May 13, 2008 at 4:21 PM

In the news industry.

eaglesdontflock on May 13, 2008 at 4:04 PM

Is it possible that the news industry is more to blame than Southerners?

Esthier on May 13, 2008 at 4:26 PM

You still haven’t answered my question: will you so called “conservatives” switch parties now that the republican party has of necessity become the populist party, who is today sponsoring many “soak the rich” pieces of legislature in order to gain the poor white vote in the rust bowl?

SaintOlaf on May 13, 2008 at 4:26 PM

Red Pill: So-called “Christians:” drove my people from three separate states at gunpoint, incited the United States Army to go against my people after we’d been driven out of the country, took away all our civil rights, including the right to not be forced to testify against our spouse and our right to vote, and drove thousands into hiding just for their beliefs.

And you want to bring that back. Our first leader of our church died from a mob that was being led by a Christian preacher; our third leader died in hiding while being hunted by the US government for his beliefs, at the instigation of Christians. Heck, the republican party itself was founded on two principles: anti-Mormonism and anti-slavery. How do I know Huck doesn’t want to bring back that first plank?

The other Christian presidents (at least, the ones since Teddy Roosevelt–the ones before him actively persecuted us) didn’t really run as a “Christian leader so vote for me please” bit like Huckabee is doing.

YOU may not want to kill me, but many others of Huckabee’s followers wouldn’t mind one bit. Like I said, I’ve run into several here at HotAir.

Now, let me get this straight: we are Christians, despite not being allowed by others that status. We revere the Bible, and indeed we promote a government based on Biblical and Christian principles.

I don’t think Huck would govern based on Christian principles. He does not seem very Christian to me. That’s really the crux, isn’t it? I’ve charged all this stuff about Huckabites and Huckabee–in essence, I say many of them are not Christian, despite their claims to be one. They do not act Christlike towards other, and I don’t think Huckabee would either. If I could trust him to actually be a Christian, then that would be great.

But I don’t think he is a real Christian. And I’m not the only one–his issues with Hypocrisy and lying are a main source of concern for many, and no real Christian would act like he does.

So I’m not going to vote for a wolf in sheeps clothing. I don’t think Jimmy Swaggart was a Christian either, and Huck reminds me of him.

Vanceone on May 13, 2008 at 4:31 PM

I really wish that the self-centered idiots who think that one has to believe in some kind of Hovindish fairytale cultism would spend less time praying for the threatened souls of rational thinkers and try to renew contact with the real world.

Atheists and agnostics can be conservative or libertarian. But then some of the profound thinkers may think that Ayn Rand was a Democrat.

Annar on May 13, 2008 at 4:33 PM

If Huckabee is VP I’m voting Libertarian – at least they understand economics. Voting Hillary is suicide.

Poptech on May 13, 2008 at 4:38 PM

Apropos of nothing but…It took me a long time to warm up to McCain. Now I support him with reservations, but a McCain/Huckabee ticket will kill this election for me. Huckabee is a Republican version of Jimmy Carter. He is a complete loser with not much on his resume other than having learned how to control his addiction to food. Probably done thru gastric bypass but…Whatever…McCain would almost certainly be a one-termer, so his VP will be the standard bearer in 2012. Huckabee cannot carry Red States outside of the bible belt. He is a dead-end road for the Republican party…

Nozzle on May 13, 2008 at 4:40 PM

SaintOlaf on May 13, 2008 at 4:26 PM

How is that any different from the Democrats? Why leave something you don’t like just to have more of the same.

Esthier on May 13, 2008 at 4:45 PM

Is it possible that the news industry is more to blame than Southerners?

Esthier on May 13, 2008 at 4:26 PM

No.

I was born and raised in the South. I’ve lived in Florida, the North, the East Coast, Midwest and the Bible Belt. Catholic hatred isn’t PC, but it’s there.

eaglesdontflock on May 13, 2008 at 4:46 PM

Red Pill: Look, I think you are okay; but you are deluded somewhat. As best as I can tell, evangelical Christianity rejects revelation, so I can’t see how you can consistently be one and claim revelation from the Holy Spirit.

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head — Christ — from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

Ephesians 4:11-16

Red Pill on May 13, 2008 at 4:46 PM

Catholic hatred is alive and well in the South. I have experienced it. I worked with it. In the news industry.

If you could document even one case I would take you seriously. I have lived, worked, and traveled in the south for most of my life (I’m nearly 40) and never seen the slightest hint of the Archie Bunkerism that you’re describing. And you didn’t just say this was at your work so we could attribute it to the intolerant, irreligious media; you said your children were attacked for attending Catholic school. These are serious charges.

As for disagreeing agreeably… I thought I was being polite, given your ridiculous premise. Just one case! That’s all I ask. There must be ONE documented case of Catholic discrimination in the last 40 years.

Laura on May 13, 2008 at 4:48 PM

Nozzle on May 13, 2008 at 4:40 PM

After putting his foot in a pile of steaming s%*t global warming this week he may be on a path to losing even before choosing a VP.

Annar on May 13, 2008 at 4:50 PM

I mentioned upthread the death threats one Huck supporter made about Mormons if we went to Missouri.

Vanceone on May 13, 2008 at 3:51 PM

Please provide the link. I can’t find such a comment on Hot Air.

If someone did indeed make a death threat against you on Hot Air, I fully support them being banned.

Red Pill on May 13, 2008 at 4:55 PM

Einstein on god

Annar on May 13, 2008 at 4:56 PM

As for disagreeing agreeably… I thought I was being polite, given your ridiculous premise. Just one case! That’s all I ask. There must be ONE documented case of Catholic discrimination in the last 40 years.

Laura on May 13, 2008 at 4:48 PM

Laura, I and my children experienced it. If that’s not good enough, sorry. I’m sure if you dig around in Arkansas and Tennessee, you can find Catholics who have experienced the same. That’s not my job, to do your work. If you choose not to believe me, so be it. I choose not to give you names of others who have experienced the same crap. It’s not something people broadcast. We have to live here.

You are being disagreeable. Yes. You have all but called me a liar and labeled me insane. So is this your agreeable side?

eaglesdontflock on May 13, 2008 at 4:56 PM

Oh, and Red Pill: Romney would say Jesus is Lord. Just that none of the Huckabee Crowd would believe him. In fact, Romney HAS said that Christ is who he follows.

Saying Christ is who he follows does not equal saying “Jesus is Lord”. I’d like to hear him actually say the words, “Jesus is Lord”, but of course he is under no obligation to do so.

There is a difference in who Evangelicals believe Jesus Christ is and who LDS/Mormons believe Jesus Christ is.

Someone who has lived both sides explains the difference here.

Red Pill on May 13, 2008 at 5:00 PM

I was born and raised in the South. I’ve lived in Florida, the North, the East Coast, Midwest and the Bible Belt. Catholic hatred isn’t PC, but it’s there.

eaglesdontflock on May 13, 2008 at 4:46 PM

I don’t know. I’ve lived in the South my entire life, and I’m becoming convinced that everyone has some form of prejudice against some sort of group.

I’ve faced discrimination for my age, my hair color, by race and my gender, as well as for my politics, my religious beliefs and my morality, oddly enough, most of what I got on the last two came from classmates at a Christian school.

It just doesn’t seem to matter who you are or what you are associated with. Someone will hate you no matter what.

Maybe Southern states have a Catholic problem (by that I mean that they discriminate against them). I don’t know. I doubt it sincerely, but I’m not an authority.

Einstein on god

Annar on May 13, 2008 at 4:56 PM

Self-righteous atheists are no better than self-righteous Christians.

Something posted in the Hot Air Headlines is hardly news to Hot Air posters, and the quotes are completely meaningless.

Would you start to believe in God if Einstein had said the opposite? Surely your opinion on religion is based on something other than a celebrities endorsement.

Esthier on May 13, 2008 at 5:01 PM

You are being disagreeable. Yes. You have all but called me a liar and labeled me insane. So is this your agreeable side?

Just calling it like I see it as politely as I can, but I can certainly see how you’d find that disagreeable. It’s your anecdotes vs. my anecdotes. Given the utter lack of documentation – and given how every other kind of discrimination, real and imagined, from antisemitism to racism to Islamophobia to homophobia etc is documented and easily accessible, but this one type isn’t, I just can’t buy it.

Laura on May 13, 2008 at 5:08 PM

Would you start to believe in God if Einstein had said the opposite?

Esthier on May 13, 2008 at 5:01 PM

No.

Annar on May 13, 2008 at 5:11 PM

Just calling it like I see it as politely as I can, but I can certainly see how you’d find that disagreeable. It’s your anecdotes vs. my anecdotes. Given the utter lack of documentation – and given how every other kind of discrimination, real and imagined, from antisemitism to racism to Islamophobia to homophobia etc is documented and easily accessible, but this one type isn’t, I just can’t buy it.

Laura on May 13, 2008 at 5:08 PM

My finale – don’t buy it. Just like I don’t buy that you can’t find it.

Your polite vs. my polite, your truth vs. my truth. Maybe you should have spent your whole life as a Catholic, vs. part of it.

eaglesdontflock on May 13, 2008 at 5:14 PM

The Huckabee supporters turned it into a referendum on Mormonism, at the suggestion of Mr. Rollins, who is great at hate.

eaglesdontflock on May 13, 2008 at 3:56 PM

I don’t doubt that Rollins, who is a political strategist, suggested using Anti-Mormon tactics. What you fail to recognize, though, is that while Huckabee may have initially followed this advice, Huckabee realized the error of doing so, apologized to Romney face-to-face, and pulled the anti-Romney ads that Rollins had created.

Of course, many here at Hot Air refused to believe that this could have been a conscience-driven decision, and must instead be a ploy to get free showings by the media. Hogwash. If Huckabee had not shown the video to the media, they would have claimed that it had never been produced. They would have questioned his credibility. He showed the video to the media only to prove that it had been created. He had prayerfully decided that morning to pull it.

Rollins, rather than resent Huckabee for this decision, admired him for it.

…Riding in the elevator afterward, Rollins says, he told Huckabee, “Governor, this is what it means to be president. The president gets lots of advice and makes a lot of tough decisions . . . But you made the decision.”

“I admire the fact he’s trying to change the environment,” Rollins says. “What I have to do is make sure that my anger with a guy like Romney, whose teeth I want to knock out, doesn’t get in the way of my thought process.”

It’s Rollins who hates Mitt Romney, not Mike Huckabee. Huckabee made a great, even Presidential, decision when he chose not to follow Rollins’ advice to continue to attack Romney.

Red Pill on May 13, 2008 at 5:17 PM

Huckabee was practically humping McCain’s leg for the last month of the race. Some people I know on his staff wouldn’t even answer me when I asked if he was just there to edge Mitt out. I am willing to bet there was some trade deal in the works there.

bj1126 on May 12, 2008 at 3:04 PM

I believe there was. Huck was the spoiler for McCain, and the ONLY reason McCain came from a dead campaign at rock bottom to an inexplicable and media-hoaxed surge against Romney.

I’d say Huckabee is a very good choice for McCain’s VP. The two deserve each other. After all, what’s a s*it sandwich without a tall, warm glass of pi*s? Hm?

The Republicans have laid themselves a banquet…

Redhead Infidel on May 13, 2008 at 5:18 PM

Maybe you should have spent your whole life as a Catholic, vs. part of it.

I’m the only Protestant in my family, eagle, and I was Catholic my first twenty-five years.

Laura on May 13, 2008 at 5:21 PM

No.

Annar on May 13, 2008 at 5:11 PM

Good to know.

Esthier on May 13, 2008 at 5:24 PM

Then why don’t you believe Him instead of doing battle with every peceived enemy of Huckabee you find on the blog? If it’s true you don’t need to do anything, it will happen. Instead you come here and offend as many as you can.

Shay on May 13, 2008 at 4:00 PM

I am not here to “do battle”, but I am here to speak the truth. There have been, and continue to be, a lot of lies spoken about Mike Huckabee. I comment here because I don’t like lies going uncontested.

You are correct that I don’t need to do anything, it will happen.

It is not my goal to offend anyone. However, I can’t let other people’s being offended stop me from speaking the truth in love.

A lot of people find John 14:6 offensive, but that doesn’t mean it’s not the truth or that we should stop saying it.

Red Pill on May 13, 2008 at 5:24 PM

Red Pill on May 13, 2008 at 5:17 PM

Red Pill, had it been a one-time event, people might buy that, but after his speech in SLC way back in the day, followed by that convenient, “innocent” question to the New York Times magazine reporter about Jesus and the devil being brothers… no.

Laura on May 13, 2008 at 5:25 PM

you mean the ad that Huckabee showed to the press corps, while saying he wasn’t going to air it? (“I’m not going to talk about what a jerk so and so is, like when he did such and such, because I’m just too nice a guy for that…but in case you were wondering what I WOULD say, here it is…”)

The ad that did, in fact, run?

Huckabee is a two-faced cretin. When he made the “aside” about “don’t Mormons believe…” he didn’t just go privately to Romney to apologize – he continued to make it a story by talking publicly about what a great guy he was for talking with Romney privately. He likes to have it both ways – poor me, but poor NOBLE me…

I bought it for a while, but that ended a long time ago.

sulla on May 13, 2008 at 5:30 PM

I don’t doubt that Rollins, who is a political strategist, suggested using Anti-Mormon tactics.
Red Pill on May 13, 2008 at 5:17 PM

Yet, you have no qualms about using Rollins’s favorable comparison of Huckabee to Reagan as proof of Huck’s conservatism. Did you just impeach your own witness?

a capella on May 13, 2008 at 5:32 PM

Huckabee is a Republican version of Jimmy Carter.

Nozzle on May 13, 2008 at 4:40 PM

That’s a lie.

He is a complete loser with not much on his resume other than having learned how to control his addiction to food.

You qualify as a Huck hater.

Huckabee was named one of America’s 5 Best Governors for good reason.

Red Pill on May 13, 2008 at 5:32 PM

Cant understand why all you Romney Backers are so bitter against Huckabee, It seems like you hate him worse than the Clintons, or something like that.

Probably has something to do with not liking Governors of Arkansas that institute liberal nanny state policies.

joncoltonis on May 13, 2008 at 5:42 PM

728 comments and nobody’s been banned. Amazing!

Laura on May 13, 2008 at 5:45 PM

Support the Republican nominee in November, or by default support this.

Red Pill on May 13, 2008 at 5:45 PM

Huckabee & McCain. Now there’s a ticket that ecretes enthusiasm.

Ernest on May 13, 2008 at 5:45 PM

I don’t doubt that Rollins, who is a political strategist, suggested using Anti-Mormon tactics. What you fail to recognize, though, is that while Huckabee may have initially followed this advice, Huckabee realized the error of doing so, apologized to Romney face-to-face, and pulled the anti-Romney ads that Rollins had created.

Of course, many here at Hot Air refused to believe that this could have been a conscience-driven decision, and must instead be a ploy to get free showings by the media. Hogwash. If Huckabee had not shown the video to the media, they would have claimed that it had never been produced. They would have questioned his credibility. He showed the video to the media only to prove that it had been created. He had prayerfully decided that morning to pull it.

Rollins, rather than resent Huckabee for this decision, admired him for it.

…Riding in the elevator afterward, Rollins says, he told Huckabee, “Governor, this is what it means to be president. The president gets lots of advice and makes a lot of tough decisions . . . But you made the decision.”

“I admire the fact he’s trying to change the environment,” Rollins says. “What I have to do is make sure that my anger with a guy like Romney, whose teeth I want to knock out, doesn’t get in the way of my thought process.”

It’s Rollins who hates Mitt Romney, not Mike Huckabee. Huckabee made a great, even Presidential, decision when he chose not to follow Rollins’ advice to continue to attack Romney.

Red Pill on May 13, 2008 at 5:17 PM

You can’t see the fallacy of your argument? Huckabee knew from the beginning, as in “I’m Mike Huckabee and I approved this message”

The very first scurrilous preview was enough to disengage an honorable man.

eaglesdontflock on May 13, 2008 at 5:55 PM

Red Pill on May 13, 2008 at 3:19 PM

You said you were told to share the prophecy. Were you also told to come here and battle what you’re referring to as lies [rather than the people telling them, which is the case here]? You are not speaking the Truth in love. You are speaking the Truth in pride. In your own power. That’s why no one’s receiving it.

Shay on May 13, 2008 at 5:57 PM

Huckabee was named one of America’s 5 Best Governors for good reason.

Red Pill on May 13, 2008 at 5:32 PM

You failed to mention that the award was bestowed by the CPA.

eaglesdontflock on May 13, 2008 at 5:58 PM

Wow! This has to be some sort of record. Over 700 posts. I find religion to be the most cohesive force in the universe, also the most divisive.

Oldnuke on May 13, 2008 at 6:04 PM

apacalyps on May 12, 2008 at 9:00 PM

You and al-Ozarki remind me of the dwarves at the end of C.S. Lewis’ “The Last Battle”, after Aslan led everyone out of Narnia.

Sitting in the dark corner of a barn and deriding and insulting everyone else…

Real nice.

linlithgow on May 13, 2008 at 6:40 PM

You’re right about that Oldnuke.

My heart aches for those who reject the Light of the world and our Saviour, Jesus Christ and persecute Mike Huckabee purely because he is a believer in Him..

I wish I could explain to them the peace and joy and love we experience in the presence of God!

Those of us who seek to stay in the presence of the Holy Spirit know what I am talking about.

Jesus said:

And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

If you practice unrighteousness the Holy Spirit will flee from you.

Rejecting the Saviour is idolatry,a sin,and will lead to all other sins.

Whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

“The soul that sinneth,it shall die”

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins

Consider this carefully in your spirit: repent,turn from sin and put all your trust in Jesus Christ…you will be born again and will be saved from eternal torment in Hell where you are now heading.

God bless,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PC-yHnqttAU

SaintOlaf on May 13, 2008 at 7:02 PM

Whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

“The soul that sinneth,it shall die”

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins SaintOlaf on May 13, 2008 at 7:02 PM

This discussion, as all discussions about the VP spot, has been turned into slop bucket. The real issue is who can best lead this nation of many parts and beliefs. The Huckabee supporters turned it into a referendum on Mormonism, at the suggestion of Mr. Rollins, who is great at hate.

Mitt Romney exhibited all of the key elements of the type of leader who could lead diversity within the framework of a Christian constitution. I have no fear of his Mormon faith getting in the way of his ability to govern fairly. He has proven his ability time and time again.

I’m still a Romney supporter, but not a bitter one. This isn’t about Romney supporters hating Huckabee. Huckabee and his campaign staff insured there would be plenty of hate by their campaign strategy.

It’s sad that a man of Romney’s caliber can be derailed by charlatans masquerading as Christians. Rollins. The game plan was to make faith an issue. How ugly for a man of faith, Huckabee. Unchristian. An ugly political strategy that has fractured the Republican Party. Funny, Huckabee looks like a good Democrat from here. Or an unrepentant sinner, Olaf. You may have hit on something…you guys just can’t cleanse yourselves of Rollins. Bedding with the devil.

eaglesdontflock on May 13, 2008 at 7:09 PM

Esthier on May 13, 2008 at 5:24 PM

I did not mean to be so abrupt in my response to your post but I was being called away. As for Einstein’s letter I’d like to see the entire text in German but in any case he was only affirming what was widely known but nevertheless sometimes disputed in some circles because of quotes like “God does not play dice.” In effect Einstein was a pantheist which meant that he believed in Spinoza’s god. This is just a fancy way to sum up all of nature using one word. Thus, for him there is no interventionist being who cares about what we say or do.

The goings on in this thread indicate that religion does not necessarily bring out the best in people. I obviously believe that all these cults are man made and tend to agree with Voltaire who said.

La religion existe depuis que le premier hypocrite a rencontré le premier imbécile !

Annar on May 13, 2008 at 7:21 PM

Too bad there is no such place as hell,

Annar on May 13, 2008 at 6:29 AM

You think that you have everything figured out. I am very frightened for you (Revelation 20:15).

apacalyps on May 13, 2008 at 7:36 PM

If you’re going to hold yourself out as a Christian example, walk the walk and type the talk. (regarding Christians who use strong language to rebuke false teachers – emphasis added).

silverfox on May 13, 2008 at 8:26 AM

You better read your Bible again Silver.

Jesus Himself turned over the tables of the money changers in the temple, and He called religious leaders ‘hypocrites’ and ‘vipers’ to their faces. In Matthew 23:29, Jesus said to them, “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres (graves), which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.”

Every situation is different. In this situation Jesus used strong words for strong circumstances. I hope that helps.

apacalyps on May 13, 2008 at 7:55 PM

apacalyps on May 13, 2008 at 7:36 PM
You could call in your entire klavern chanting ridiculous incantations interspersed with random bible verses and replays of Hovind’s screwy lectures and hell still will not exist.

If you wish to believe that it does please continue doing so but you should really try to tone down your foolish rants because people are laughing.

Annar on May 13, 2008 at 8:04 PM

You know what’s perhaps most baffling about these pundits taking potshots at Gov. Huckabee? It’s that he has everything for which the anti-illegal immigration proponents have been calling for and yet they continue to attack him for adopting their plan. YOU complain you’d like leaders who listen — well, he listened! But, no, no… they don’t believe him. Nope. He’s lying. Unbelievable.

“You have to secure the border and until that’s done, nothing makes sense. That ought to be done. It ought to be done with American workers, with American products, and it ought to be done immediately. 18 months ought to be the outside length of time. It’s an issue of national security, more than it is anything else.” — Mike Huckabee

Good luck on getting your fence built now. You ruined it for all of us who wanted it. Smart. Real smart.

apacalyps on May 13, 2008 at 8:04 PM

“What we’ve got to do is to have a secure border fence, something I have proposed that we do within 18 months of taking office.” — Mike Huckabee

apacalyps on May 13, 2008 at 8:06 PM

I’m still anticipating the banning. These Huckabee threads certainly do have a way of bringing out the worst of people. Just like the demonizing, populist, class-envy-promoting politician himself.

Laura on May 13, 2008 at 8:44 AM

You’re really something.

apacalyps on May 13, 2008 at 8:09 PM

All right, I’ve made up my mind. If McCain chooses Huck as his veep, I will go out and vote McCain.

fossten on May 13, 2008 at 8:15 PM

Dole – Kemp redux.

diogenes on May 13, 2008 at 8:20 PM

I obviously believe that all these cults are man made and tend to agree with Voltaire who said.

La religion existe depuis que le premier hypocrite a rencontré le premier imbécile !

Annar on May 13, 2008 at 7:21 PM

voltaire huh? Or Francois Marie(his real name).. didn’t he say “Syphilis is an indispensable part of the best of worlds, a necessary ingredient”

Real brilliant guy..you sure know how to pick your idols.

Again it just proves God right that sexual immorality is not only a sin against God but against your own body.

Maybe francois marie was so mad at God because he was named a womans name.

hell still will not exist

Hell certainly does exist…it looks like you will find out the hard way.

Let me guess…. you also think you can stand in front of a speeding truck and it won’t kill you because you don’t believe in trucks right?

Talk to any very experienced cardiologist they will tell you that the majority of people who die and come back tell them about experiencing the horrors of hell.

Yes many experience Heaven but the more common(and less publicized) experiences talk about a place unspeakably horrible.

SaintOlaf on May 13, 2008 at 8:22 PM

What he says:

“What we’ve got to do is to have a secure border fence, something I have proposed that we do within 18 months of taking office.” — Mike Huckabee

What he DID:

* In 2001, Huckabee’s human services liaison Robert Trevino pushed for legislation to provide driver’s licenses for illegals. It was understood by legislators that he acted with Huckabee’s blessing.
* In 2001, Huckabee opposed a measure to require proof of citizenship to vote.
* In 2005, Huckabee supported a bill that offered illegal immigrants in-state tuition rates and made them eligible for the same merit-based scholarships to Arkansas state colleges and universities as legal citizens. The bill would have violated federal law and was not enacted by the legislature.
* In 2005, he opposed a bill that denied some state benefits to illegals and required proof of citizenship to vote (patterned after Arizona’s Prop 200 that has been successful in curtailing illegal immigration in that state). In this story, Huckabee called the measure “un-American….inflammatory….race-baiting and demagoguery.” He added that the bill “inflames those who are racist and bigots and makes them think there’s a real problem. But there’s not.” He then singled out State Senator Jim Holt, also an openly professing Christian, saying, “I drink a different kind of Jesus juice.”
* In 2005, Huckabee criticized federal agents for a recent crackdown on illegals, saying that it wasn’t fair to the innocent family members of those targeted in the operation. (No word on whether he also opposes raids on other law-breakers who might also have innocent family members affected by the fruits of their illegal activity.)
* In 2005, Huckabee promoted an “open door” policy on immigration as he addressed the League of United Latin American Citizens (LULAC) national convention in Little Rock. LULAC is a left-leaning group that opposes virtually all measures of immigration enforcement.

“He was an absolute disaster on immigration as governor. Every time there was any enforcement in his state, he took the side of the illegal aliens.” – Roy Beck, president of NumbersUSA, a group that played a major role in rallying the phone calls that helped defeat this year’s Senate immigration bill.

“I would hope he could be trusted to secure the borders, but given his track record in Arkansas, I don’t see the conservative he has portrayed himself to be in Iowa.” – Jake Files, a former Arkansas state representative and current chairman of the Sebastian County Republican Party

Laura on May 13, 2008 at 8:22 PM

Hell certainly does exist…it looks like you will find out the hard way.

Let me guess…. you also think you can stand in front of a speeding truck and it won’t kill you because you don’t believe in trucks right?

Talk to any very experienced cardiologist they will tell you that the majority of people who die and come back tell them about experiencing the horrors of hell.

Yes many experience Heaven but the more common(and less publicized) experiences talk about a place unspeakably horrible.

SaintOlaf on May 13, 2008 at 8:22 PM

P.M. Magazine, February 24, 1982 – Three Men Who Went to Hell

Don’t know if you can find it, but I’ll bet it’s worth watching.

fossten on May 13, 2008 at 8:55 PM

Red Pill, it’s not ad hominem when it’s demonstrably true and when that’s the point of the argument. I have a lot of reasons to dislike Huckabee and want him to fail politically, and his populism and class warfare are high on the list.

Laura on May 13, 2008 at 9:47 AM

If you want to criticize honestly I have no problem with that. That’s fine. But when you lie to make your point or slander someone in the process, now we have a problem. That’s when I’m going to speak up. For instance when you said:

“After his little Jesus/Satan “question” he exposed himself for exactly what he is – a typical politician who will do anything to gain power, including abuse the faith he supposedly holds so dear.”

I don’t think what you said is true. I think it’s a lie. For one thing, as a Christian I really appreciated the question. It’s very important for me to know these things, and I know other Christians who felt the very same way. It was just fine when people attacked Huckabee for his faith and ask him all sorts of questions during the campaign including attacking the Baptist view on marriage and distortng their view on it. But the second he asks even the most timid of questions about Romney’s Mormon faith, he gets mocked by you and people call him a bigot. And the fact you call yourself Christian and are silent about someone else who identifies themselves as Christian yet teaches the brother of your Lord and Savior is Satan, really blows my mind.

apacalyps on May 13, 2008 at 9:11 PM

SaintOlaf on May 13, 2008 at 8:22 PM
Voltaire’s real name was François-Marie Arouet.

Maybe francois marie was so mad at God because he was named a womans name.

A remark that could only be made by an uneducated person. Go back to school and learn about the culture of Europe including naming conventions.

Let me guess…. you also think you can stand in front of a speeding truck and it won’t kill you because you don’t believe in trucks right?

I have no problem accepting the existence of speeding trucks so I stay out of their way, but I’m more than willing to stand in front of your speeding god since I know it’s just a fairy tale.

Annar on May 13, 2008 at 9:16 PM

Thanks for welcoming me, but I should probably be the founding member. His attacks on me are based on another thread where he proved that his reading comprehension was that of first grader.

Esthier on May 13, 2008 at 9:57 AM

Oh, .. lol… is that what it’s called now? You lose your debate and now you’re being attacked? Congratulations. You get this evenings cry baby award: *animated baby crying*

apacalyps on May 13, 2008 at 9:20 PM

The polls against homosexual marriage are far too conclusive for any politicians to make any other decision. Maybe he could outlaw its behavior in public with some sort of public ceremony proving he’s serious.

Esthier on May 13, 2008 at 9:57 AM

What are your views on homosexuality? Do you think it is right or wrong?

apacalyps on May 13, 2008 at 9:23 PM

Huckabee was named one of America’s 5 Best Governors for good reason.

Red Pill on May 13, 2008 at 5:32 PM

As Ross Perot said of Bill Clinton’s economic record in Arkansas, “if you have a penny and you make another penny, you doubled your money…But, you still don’t have enough to buy a pack of gum.” The fact is that the top 100 Fortune companies, all of our armed services and most major US cities have budgets that exceed the size and complexity of that of Arkansas. Arkansas ranks 33rd in population and 50th in education. Huckabee was a big fat catfish in a small pond. He has no business, military, or what I would consider significant government experience. He is a zero in my book. A grown up boy who finally learned how to control a knife and fork…

Nozzle on May 13, 2008 at 9:31 PM

She can talk about Jesus all she wants, just not on the taxpayer dime. It’s that simple.

Esthier on May 13, 2008 at 9:59 AM

Esthier claims to love the Lord with all her “heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind.” Luke 10:27

Now that you’ve read that passage, read it again and think of Esthier’s instructions above. I think you’ll agree that there are some definite inconsistencies.

apacalyps on May 13, 2008 at 9:32 PM

As far as I understand it, it’s a bit of a false notion that seems to plague our society. This so-called “constitutional separation of church and state.” No where in the US constitution is this mentioned, nor even the words “separation”, “church”, or “state”. That phrase was started by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to a friend in which he explained that the church must be protected from the state (not the other way) in order to ensure freedom of religion. And this idea the state (and therefore public schools) must be free of Christian influence – what do people think this nation and its government, laws, and ethics were founded on?! Does the phrase “In God We Trust” sound familiar? You’d think that that phrase being on American currency would be against the “separation of church and state” and a blatent violation of the public’s right not to be exposed to anything pertaining to Christianity. What you have here are people who hate God, who have twisted Thomas Jefferson’s letter to say something it never meant, because “In God They don’t Trust”.

apacalyps on May 13, 2008 at 9:44 PM

…could you guys explain Ed Rollins to me.

eaglesdontflock on May 13, 2008 at 10:29 AM

I like Ed Rollins.

apacalyps on May 13, 2008 at 9:51 PM

Huckabee would be a fine VP

arizonateacher on May 13, 2008 at 11:20 AM

Glad you spoke up.

apacalyps on May 13, 2008 at 9:58 PM

Fortunately, I know too many good christians so I wont judge christians from the likes of certain a-holes like Huckster, Apacalyps, RedPill (who was banned here once and should be banned again) and Satan Olaf.

Most christians are good people. Dont judge christians from the words of these no-life d0uchbags.

Roger Waters on May 13, 2008 at 10:00 PM

Laura on May 13, 2008 at 8:22 PM

Mike Huckabee on Immigration:

Let me also say that it is right for our country, in believing in our sovereignty, to demand that we have something that every nation on earth accepts and, in fact, assumes would be a part of its nation’s essentials — a secure border. How we can ever believe that we can be a sovereign nation or a free nation without securing our borders is beyond me.

And ladies and gentlemen, our national government has miserably failed to do something that most of us all across this country realize. This is a great nation that welcomes people. We’re not hostile. We’ve always been a nation of immigrants. Most of us come from ancestors who immigrated here from somewhere. But we’re also a nation of law, and we believe that if you knock on our front door and you’re hungry, chances are we’ll ask you to sign the guest book and we’ll try to feed you and help you. But if you break through the window in the middle of the night, God help you. (Cheers, applause.)

The sad thing is when our own government puts the ladder up against the window. It’s a little hard to blame the person climbing up the ladder as much as it is the government who puts the ladder and says, “Go ahead and climb.” (Cheers, applause.) Let’s fix what’s wrong.

Speech at CPAC, February 9, 2008

For those of you who haven’t seen Mike Huckabee’s speech at CPAC, you can watch it here.

Red Pill on May 13, 2008 at 10:01 PM

Fortunately, I know too many good christians so I wont judge christians from the likes of certain a-holes like Huckster, Apacalyps, RedPill (who was banned here once and should be banned again) and Satan Olaf.

Most christians are good people. Dont judge christians from the words of these no-life d0uchbags.

Roger Waters on May 13, 2008 at 10:00 PM

Obvious troll is obvious.

fossten on May 13, 2008 at 10:03 PM

Yep. Let’s elect a “TRUE CHRISTIAN” ….. just like Carter. Going by the standards of the Huckabee supporters, we should all reelect Carter, who is the best president of all time:

Vanceone on May 13, 2008 at 12:12 PM

Huckabee is NOT a liberal and he is NOT a bigot and he is NOT Jimmy Carter and NOT a socialist. All rational discussion has broken down here because of this nonsense.

apacalyps on May 13, 2008 at 10:07 PM

Fossten,

I agree, you are a troll.

There should be a new rule: Only 10 posts a day. I usually post like once a week or so. That way, some of you no-lifers who post 100 posts a day will be forced to occassionally leave the trailer park.

HA HA HA HA HA!!!

How bout it Allah? Lets limit these trolls to 5 or 6 a day. Better yet…BAN THEM!!!

They suck and even worse…they are boring.

thanks.

Roger Waters on May 13, 2008 at 10:08 PM

Seeing Jefferson respectfully mentioned perhaps the different sects posting here could agree on a common purely American source for New Testament biblical quotes, namely, the superstition free Jefferson Bible.

Annar on May 13, 2008 at 10:09 PM

I like Ed Rollins.

apacalyps on May 13, 2008 at 9:51 PM

O..k..a..y……….that says a lot about you.

eaglesdontflock on May 13, 2008 at 10:11 PM

The real issue is who can best lead this nation of many parts and beliefs.

eaglesdontflock on May 13, 2008 at 7:09 PM

You want to get back to issues? If the issues page was still up at MikeHuckabee.com, I would send you there. However, all links at MikeHuckabee.com now redirect to HuckPAC.com.

Here are the issues that Mike Huckabee and Huck PAC stand for:

Huck PAC is founded on the principles that make America great: Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. Our Republican Party embodies these ideas and is best suited to lead America forward.

Huck PAC is committed to helping Republicans regain control of the House and Senate, regain a majority of governorships and elect John McCain as the 44th President of the United States.

Huck PAC will support Republican candidates who are passionate advocates for tax reform, a strong national defense, real border security, life, the family, less government and individual liberty.

Huck PAC will identify candidates who hold firm to these principles, promote their campaigns and financially support their efforts.

Red Pill on May 13, 2008 at 10:11 PM

Roger Waters on May 13, 2008 at 10:00 PM
Roger Waters on May 13, 2008 at 10:08 PM

Interesting to see you asking for other people to be banned when you yourself are breaking the rules.

If you aren’t banned, perhaps you should limit your comments to the post about your namesake.

Red Pill on May 13, 2008 at 10:29 PM

They consider anyone who doesn’t adhere to their strain of literalist evangelical christianity evil, and they regularly slander anyone who doesn’t fit in this category.

phronesis on May 13, 2008 at 12:46 PM

That is a bold-faced lie. All Christian’s agree on the essential core (ie, Trinity, the deity of Christ, the bodily resurrection, salvation by grace through faith, etcerera) but these central doctrines should not be confused with peripheral issues, with which Christians may legitimately disagree. Sure I disagree with other Christian’s on some of the nonessentials, like interpreting certain end time prophecies, but that’s perfectly fine and even healthy, but we agree on the “Central doctrines” of the Christian faith. My problem is with the deceivers here posing as Christians. These are the ones who allow darkness (lies) to mix with the light (truth). They are frauds. And during heated debates, they expose themselves by making certain comments that a believer will not make.

apacalyps on May 13, 2008 at 10:32 PM

Interesting to see you asking for other people to be banned when you yourself are breaking the rules.

If you aren’t banned, perhaps you should limit your comments to the post about your namesake.

Red Pill on May 13, 2008 at 10:29 PM

Heh. You think he’s not yet 18 years old? Yeah, I thought that too.

fossten on May 13, 2008 at 10:43 PM

Hey Vanceone appreciate you taking on these guys. I can certainly vouch for the manner of their preaching at our weddings using bull horns and calling the brides whores, and at our conferences, pulling the BoM on a string on the ground and daring anyone to start a fight, with the aclu attorneys standing beside them. We Our wonderful Pres Hinckley asking us to walk on by and to not accost them or engage in a discussion.
This is the Christ like love that they talk about.
We all know what huck did and why he did it. You guys are deluded if you don’t understand what he did. To apologize after the fact – whooppeee! The damage is done – move on.
Thanks for all of you who are also considered devils because of your religion and especially the Jews who must feel completely marginalized. Good thing God does the judging and not man.

Bambi on May 13, 2008 at 10:43 PM

The bigotry we’re talking about is against Evangelical Christians. It’s the one, remaining bigotry that’s acceptable to everybody. It’s nonsense, of course, just like every other bigoted stereotype is nonsense. But it’s what bigots think.

philwynk on May 13, 2008 at 1:44 PM

Wow. Very well said. Yes, it is always easier to stereotype someone or a group than it is to simply observe and see if they are of any value to the self. It seems to me that the world is frightened of Christians of any stripe because Christ is a threat to the world as it is. Hey, if people start accepting Christian folks as normal then there really is a fear that the stereotype could be wrong and the life style would change. horror of horrors.

apacalyps on May 13, 2008 at 10:46 PM

So how does voting for Hillary differ from not voting, which many, many will do if Huckabee is the VP nominee.

eaglesdontflock on May 13, 2008 at 1:49 PM

Forsake your principles. Go ahead. Oh, I forgot, you don’t have any.

apacalyps on May 13, 2008 at 10:52 PM

Oh, stop. Seriously. Do you realize how many of us (Christians!) don’t like Huckabee?

Laura on May 13, 2008 at 1:49 PM

What is your position on gay marriage? Homosexuality? Just curious.

apacalyps on May 13, 2008 at 10:54 PM

philwynk, you’re blind if you actually believe bigotry is responsible for our reactions to Huck.

Esthier on May 13, 2008 at 1:50 PM

Yep.

apacalyps on May 13, 2008 at 10:55 PM

If I’d had my druthers, of all the GOP candidates, I think maybe that I would have been happiest to see Duncan Hunter win the nomination. That didn’t happen.
But if Romney had won the nomination, I’d support him.
And if Thompson had won the nomination, I’d support him.
If Huckabee had won the nomination, I’d support him.
I’d support Tancredo as well. None of those things happened.
McCain won. I’ll support him. Grudgingly. With or without Huckabee.

But if you want my ENTHUSIASTIC support, start more political parties, and abandon this silly two-party system. After all, Ron Paul DESERVES his very own party. (Can all of us AT LEAST agree on that one?)

CyberCipher on May 13, 2008 at 10:59 PM

After all, Ron Paul DESERVES his very own party. (Can all of us AT LEAST agree on that one?)

CyberCipher on May 13, 2008 at 10:59 PM

Agreed. The current Republican Party is too much like the Democrat Party to suit Ron Paul.

fossten on May 13, 2008 at 11:02 PM

Much of your hate for Huckabee is because he is a Christian. I have no doubt about it. I wouldn’t say in all cases, but in many cases it is. Certainly with many of you here, and especially in the media! Why? Because he posseses at the very least a threat to your status quo. You scoff at him because of your lifestyle, not because of his politics.

apacalyps on May 13, 2008 at 11:03 PM

“While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption.” 2 Peter 2:19

apacalyps on May 13, 2008 at 11:04 PM

philwynk: no one’s biased against evangelical Christians.

Do these headlines sound familiar?

= Ten Commandments taken down
= “Under God” removed from the Pledge
= Prayer prohibited
= Nativity Scenes banned
= Salvation Army defunded
= Boy Scouts sued
= Christmas Carols stopped
= Bible called ‘hate speech’

What we ARE biased is having evangelical Christianity .. shoved down our throats. That’s what Huck and his supporters want.

We don’t want that at all.

The United States of America was heavily influenced by and founded on the principles of Christianity and the Bible. The Bible is the basis for American Law and Constitution. We would like to follow the Constitution, that’s all, not change it at every opportunity.

Hmm, have you ever considered you’re the threat and not us?

apacalyps on May 13, 2008 at 11:22 PM

Vanceone on May 13, 2008 at 2:10 PM

That is warped, dude. Get a grip.

apacalyps on May 13, 2008 at 11:30 PM

apacalyps on May 13, 2008 at 11:03 PM

The reason that Christianity is the best friend of Government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart.

–President Thomas Jefferson

Red Pill on May 13, 2008 at 11:30 PM

The bigotry we’re talking about is against Evangelical Christians. philwynk on May 13, 2008 at 1:44 PM

philwynk, you’re blind if you actually believe bigotry is responsible for our reactions …. the bigotry against atheists is far worse.

Esthier on May 13, 2008 at 1:50 PM

This lady, uh.. I mean women, calls herself a Christian?

Unbelievable.

apacalyps on May 13, 2008 at 11:41 PM

And the bigotry against atheists is far worse. –Esthier on May 13, 2008 at 1:50 PM

Not on this site it isn’t. And not in government and government schools and in courtrooms.

fossten on May 13, 2008 at 1:54 PM

I agree with fossten.

apacalyps on May 13, 2008 at 11:43 PM

America was founded as a Christian nation.
The Supreme Court of the United States said so itself in 1892.

Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of The Redeemer of mankind. It’s impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian… This is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation… we find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth… These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation.

Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States,
The United States Supreme Court,
143 U.S. 457, 12 S.Ct. 511, 36 L.Ed. 226 (1892)

Statements in multiple Supreme Court opinions from the founding of the this nation until the 1940′s confirmed that this nation was founded as a Christian nation and that our Constitution and its first ten amendments are based on the Bible.

Why do you never see Supreme Court Rulings that occured before 1947?

Red Pill on May 13, 2008 at 11:51 PM

fossten on May 13, 2008 at 1:54 PM

I agree with fossten.

apacalyps on May 13, 2008 at 11:43 PM

I should have said so hours ago, but I, too, agree with fossten.

Red Pill on May 14, 2008 at 12:07 AM

This thread is boring, stale, and has turned into trollbait. Consider it closed.

Allahpundit on May 14, 2008 at 12:32 AM

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