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Giuliani on Obama’s laughable judicial philosophy

posted at 11:15 am on May 7, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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Continuing the conversation on judicial nominations, Rudy Giuliani appeared on Fox yesterday to review John McCain’s Wake Forest speech. He gave McCain high marks, but laughed out loud at Barack Obama’s response. Giuliani questioned whether the constitutional law professor even knows what role judges are supposed to play and the difference between the judiciary and the legislature:

KELLY: Well, it didn’t take long for Obama’s camp to fire right back. At that, we’ll get to the Obama campaign reaction in a minute. First, we want to get the mayor’s reaction to John McCain’s accusation saying that Obama — and he actually took aim at Clinton, too, having an elitist view of judges.

GIULIANI: I would say that’s a very legitimate difference, rather than a charge or an accusation. John McCain is going to appoint judges who are conservative. Barack Obama will appoint judges who are left-wing. He will appoint activist judges who are activist judges in the sense of trying to take the Constitution and move it into solving social problems rather than feeling stuck with the words of the Constitution.

KELLY: It’s funny you should mention that, Mr. Mayor, because Barack Obama in a statement responding to John McCain’s point today said and I quote, “Barack Obama has always believed that our court should stand up for social and economic justice, and what’s truly elitist is to appoint judges who will protect the powerful and leave ordinary Americans to fend for themselves.”

Why the laughter?

GIULIANI: Well, the laughter because that is not what a judge in the American legal system is supposed to do. That is not a really responsible definition of a judge. The judge is supposed to interpret the law. And the law is written by other people. It’s written by members of the Congress. It’s written by framers of the Constitution. It’s written by the people when they amend the Constitution.

And then a judge has to have a certain, I would say, dedication to trying to interpret what other people mean and sometimes cannot put their social views into action. This is a very fair issue. John McCain would appoint judges who are more, I would call, originalists in terms of trying to define the meaning that other people had.

I think Senator Obama has made the case very strongly that John McCain has made that, he will appoint social activist judges, judges who tend to try to solve social problems rather than trying to figure out what does the law mean?

In our earlier threads, some of our commenters insisted that there would be no difference between McCain and Obama on judicial appointments. Obama himself made the difference clear; he wants judges who would impose social policy rather than interpret and enforce existing law. This makes sense from a legislator who has done nothing to propose social policy in his three years in the Senate. He would rather take the shortcut on which liberal activists have grown to rely when they realize that their radical plans have little chance of success in the legislative process.

Of all the candidates, I believed that Giuliani would have nominated the best judges. As a prosecutor, he understood the need for originalism and judicial modesty. He also had Ted Olson as his chief adviser on the judiciary, a man who spent years arguing cases at the Supreme Court and also saw the need for originalism up close and personal. Olson has now become an unofficial adviser to the McCain campaign after endorsing him in February after Giuliani’s withdrawal from the Republican primaries.

Giuliani doesn’t believe that McCain and Obama would pick the same kind of jurists for important federal bench openings. Given that we can expect at least two Supreme Court openings in the next term, that philosophical difference — as outlined by Obama himself — should indicate the stakes in this election to conservatives. Giuliani is laughing today, but if President Obama fills those slots with a Democratic majority in the Senate, conservatives won’t be laughing then or for the next twenty years afterwards.


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Comment pages: 1 2

4 years from now we will all be crying after the mockery Obama makes of this country.

cntrlfrk on May 7, 2008 at 11:18 AM

Rudy is the best at politics too, he is eager to take the Dems on and give to them on the chin contrasted to McCains accomadiation strategy.

jp on May 7, 2008 at 11:20 AM

cntrlfrk on May 7, 2008 at 11:18 AM

Pretty much.

lorien1973 on May 7, 2008 at 11:20 AM

B.H.O. got his credentials off a Cracker Jacks Box. Or paid 500 dollars for a fake diploma.

upinak on May 7, 2008 at 11:23 AM

In our earlier threads, some of our commenters insisted that there would be no difference between McCain and Obama on judicial appointments.

Assuming that magic happens and John McCain wins in November, he’ll be confronted with a (heavily) Democratic senate. What makes you think Harry Reid et al. would consent to the confirmation of another Roberts or Alito?

McCain would have two choices in filling a Supreme Court vacancy. He could 1) send up a nominee acceptable to the Democrats, or 2) leave the seat vacant. His history suggests that he’d go for Option 1.

paul006 on May 7, 2008 at 11:24 AM

What is going on at the Drudge Report? Is he really in the can for Obama?

bnelson44 on May 7, 2008 at 11:32 AM

The Constitution is one of the most important and well-reasoned documents in the history of humankind. Progressives work overtime to weaken it; to dilute it; to remove power from the individual and to place that power in the hands of the state. Power in the hands of the few is totalitarianism and an anti-American, anti-Constitutional philosophy.

Connie on May 7, 2008 at 11:33 AM

What is going on at the Drudge Report? Is he really in the can for Obama?

bnelson44 on May 7, 2008 at 11:32 AM

I stopped going to Drudge. I think he is becoming more like what he said he didn’t like. And he hasn’t realized it or no one has decided to tell him yet.

upinak on May 7, 2008 at 11:34 AM

Rudy continues to milk a really good single day at the office into a highly lucrative career. Why do people still really give a shite what he thinks about things? He’s day-before-yesterday’s news.

Dave Rywall on May 7, 2008 at 11:34 AM

Rudy is the best at politics too

But not with Ron Paul’s staying power? Jeez!

mymanpotsandpans on May 7, 2008 at 11:34 AM

He could 1) send up a nominee acceptable to the Democrats, or 2) leave the seat vacant. His history suggests that he’d go for Option 1.

Even if this is true, there is still a sizable range of choices between a nominee “acceptable to the Democrats” (McCain’s least best option) and an aggressive activist for “social justice” (Obama’s preferred option). I agree with Ed – I see quite a bit of blue sky between McCain and Obama on this issue.

Missy on May 7, 2008 at 11:36 AM

Giuliani is laughing today, but if President Obama fills those slots with a Democratic majority in the Senate, conservatives won’t be laughing then or for the next twenty years afterwards.

Sorry Ed, this line of extortion won’t work. I don’t trust McCain to appoint conservative jurists. Warren, Brennan, Blackmun, JPS, Souter… all archetypal activists and all appointed by Republicans. I have more reason to believe that McCain will appoint whomever the Democrat Senate tells him to than I have to believe that he’ll fight his “good friends” on the left.

The only people that he’s demonstrated are not his friends, time and again, are conservatives. I’ll vote for the man, but don’t expect me to swallow this crap sandwich and smile.

spmat on May 7, 2008 at 11:38 AM

Not only will we not be laughing…we’ll be weeping bitterly as we view the shattered remnants of the United States.

Anyone else starting to get survivalist urges?

Dark-Star on May 7, 2008 at 11:39 AM

Good move, Obama: there has been this constant clamor from the public to bring back the Tribunes ever since the fall of Rome!!

Our citizens have so missed being hauled off the street at random times for reasons which are never published!

/SARC

landlines on May 7, 2008 at 11:42 AM

saw the need for originalism up close and personal.

I don’t like activist judges.

That said, during the Scalia interview on 60 minuets, I saw Justice Ginsburg give a pretty strong case against origninalism. She said that “We the people,” in it’s original intent, did not include women or blacks. Thats a pretty powerful argument.

Any legal know-it-alls wanna clue me in on how to be an orginalist with that argument in mind?

VolMagic on May 7, 2008 at 11:42 AM

Barack is a no longer disguised socialist.

TooTall on May 7, 2008 at 11:43 AM

Guiliani who? :-)

TOPV on May 7, 2008 at 11:43 AM

That Obama didnt see fit to vote even for Roberts is a very stong argument against him in my book. If I were McCain I’d be winding up my louisville slugger and beating him over the head relentlessly to provide some examples of the bipartisanship he proclaims to stand for.

I sure dont see it.

Who are you Barry? A “moderate” that cant see fit to vote for John Roberts? A “regular guy” who asks about the price of Arugula in Whole Foods? A uniter that goes to mass with Reverend Wright and parties with Ayers?

Better shape up dude, looks like you’re headed to the White House. The deck is stacked in your favor. Try and do a decent job will you? Goddamn hippie.

Dash on May 7, 2008 at 11:44 AM

Is Giuliani anywhere on McCain’s VP shortlist? I know it wouldn’t appeal to the base much, but it’d appeal to the center, and he makes a really good talking head – which I think is pretty much all the VP does, isn’t it?

apollyonbob on May 7, 2008 at 11:47 AM

Anyone else starting to get survivalist urges?

Dark-Star on May 7, 2008 at 11:39 AM

OMG! My husband was laughing at me the other day when I ordered 4 books from Amazon. Three on how to dry, can, smoke, etc. meats, vegetables & fruit. The other book was called:, How to survive when all hell breaks loose!

kcd on May 7, 2008 at 11:50 AM

Let me start with the fact that I don’t like McCain. I’m conservative, he’s moderate/conservative. However, Obama is moonbat liberal. McCain’s worst appointment to the Supreme Court would be better that Obama’s best (looking at both from a conservative standpoint). I would much rather have another JPS than another Ginsberg, or worse.

Buford Gooch on May 7, 2008 at 11:51 AM

Obama has probably promised his Belle, Michelle, a seat on that coveted bench. How does that grab ya!!??

kcd on May 7, 2008 at 11:53 AM

I feel like I should go out and get a gun before November, just in case they get outlawed after then. Otherwise, I’m not sure how I’ll defend myself (as well as the wife and my new 3 week old son) after the rule of law breaks down.
For the love of America, get over your reservations about McCain! You don’t have any other choice! Life–and especially politics–isn’t fair, so get over it, hold your nose, and vote McCain.
F’ it; McCain 08

Viewtifulgare on May 7, 2008 at 11:54 AM

VolMagic on May 7, 2008 at 11:42 AM

And I’d make the argument it did. Problem wasn’t with the meaning or intent, it was in implementation. A reality they all acknowledged at the time. They had no choice but to kick the can down the road until the issues came to ahead and could be resolved.

If you are going to give unelected judges the discretion to create knew meanings in the constitution and laws passed by the legislature, structures with built in mechanisms for being changed according to the will of the people, then you are living in a dictatorship and we might as well do away with any democratic pretenses.

TheBigOldDog on May 7, 2008 at 11:54 AM

apollyonbob,
Wouldn’t the smart thing for McCain to do for VP choice be to go with a female? Then, all of Hillary’s disgusted supporters would have even less reason to vote for Obama, and might even possibly vote for the ticket with the woman on it. Obama might get smart and choose a female, but his campaign has already lost most of that vote.

Buford Gooch on May 7, 2008 at 11:55 AM

Anyone else starting to get survivalist urges?
Dark-Star on May 7, 2008 at 11:39 AM

I’m not digging a bunker in my back yard just yet, but I have stopped buying pretty much anything that isn’t necessary. A BO White House is going to savage the wallet in ways we haven’t seen since Carter was dropping peanut shells on the Oval Office carpet.

The man is a socialist and when you include how he views the SCOTUS, you know his plans for the nation don’t include the words “individuality” or “strong national defense”.

I want to live and I want my kids to have a fighting chance. Go McCain.

Bishop on May 7, 2008 at 11:55 AM

Ok, I’ll say it one more time . . . Obama is a Marxist and the social and economic condition that supports that philosophy is “communism”. This guy is very dangerous people and you elect him at your own peril. It’s ironic to note that while Germany, France, England and Italy are casting out the leftists the U.S. is actively courting two Marxists for the highest office in the land. The Republic is in serious trouble.

rplat on May 7, 2008 at 11:56 AM

Rudy continues to milk a really good single day at the office into a highly lucrative career. Why do people still really give a shite what he thinks about things? He’s day-before-yesterday’s news.

Dave Rywall on May 7, 2008 at 11:34 AM

I don’t know…maybe because when it comes to law and order he just makes sense and has the credentials?

And he had many more good days besides the one after 9/11. You do remember David Dinkins, don’t you?

Asher on May 7, 2008 at 11:56 AM

Obama has probably promised his Belle, Michelle, a seat on that coveted bench. How does that grab ya!!??

Oh no, she has bigger plans which include the words “Madam President”.

Bishop on May 7, 2008 at 11:58 AM

Anyone else starting to get survivalist urges?

Dark-Star on May 7, 2008 at 11:39 AM

Welcome to the club. People like Obama’s handlers are the reason for the 2nd Amendment.

Connie on May 7, 2008 at 11:59 AM

…wanna clue me in on how to be an orginalist with that argument in mind?

VolMagic on May 7, 2008 at 11:42 AM

That’s why there are amendments to the constitution, and a tedious and careful legal process, which ends at the Scotus, and doesn’t begin there. What Obama said/implied, is that the changes would be dictated from the SCOTUS, or the rung below them, on down.

What he said is down right dangerous. Fear him, yes do. This from a former constitutional law professor, of all things. His ignorance is staggering and utterly dangerous.

Entelechy on May 7, 2008 at 12:00 PM

Buford Gooch on May 7, 2008 at 11:55 AM

It’s never smart to pick somebody solely on the basis of their gender or race. leave the identity politics to the Liberals I say. Conservatives should be picking the best person for the job. A person prepared to be President should something happen.

TheBigOldDog on May 7, 2008 at 12:00 PM

kcd on May 7, 2008 at 11:50 AM

That sort of info is smart to have around considering the threats this nation faces. I haven’t gotten any books myself yet but would be interested to know which ones you chose.

Bishop on May 7, 2008 at 12:01 PM

TheBigOldDog on May 7, 2008 at 11:54 AM

I don’t quite see how that makes the case for originalism. The way I see it (as a layman) Scalia wants to interpret the Constitution as the people who wrote it would interpret it.

So, the question is, do Scalia and other orginalists see “We the people” to mean only white men? And if they don’t, which I’m pretty sure of, how do they square it with how they interpret other parts of the Constitution?

VolMagic on May 7, 2008 at 12:02 PM

Rudy continues to milk a really good single day at the office into a highly lucrative career. Why do people still really give a shite what he thinks about things? He’s day-before-yesterday’s news.

Dave Rywall on May 7, 2008 at 11:34 AM

Mental dwarf statement on your part, without any due respect. Internalize this, seriously.

Entelechy on May 7, 2008 at 12:02 PM

She said that “We the people,” in it’s original intent, did not include women or blacks. Thats a pretty powerful argument.

Any legal know-it-alls wanna clue me in on how to be an orginalist with that argument in mind?

VolMagic on May 7, 2008 at 11:42 AM

That is the duty of the legislature, the elected representatives of ‘the people’. Using the declared, stated process for amending the US Constitution, make changes that reflect the changing views of ‘the people’.

It is not the roll of Supreme Court Judges to make those changes to the US Constitution.

The roll of judges is to arbitrate disputes between two (or more) parties within the framework of the US Constitution and enacted legislation.

I am not a ‘legal know it all’ nor do I pretend to be on on internet blogs. Feel free to completely ignore my opinion.

rockhauler on May 7, 2008 at 12:04 PM

How did we come to this in America? Barry is the LAST thing we need in a time when people need to learn to take responsibility for their OWN actions.

Greed and stupidity as an excuse can only go so far and for so long. People need to pull their head out of their backside and realize they are the problem not the government. If you are losing your house it is not GWB fault, if you have too much debt it is not GWB fault.

TroubledMonkey on May 7, 2008 at 12:05 PM

rockhauler, great minds :) I just explained that to VolMagic, who seems to be in need of more chicken soup.

Entelechy on May 7, 2008 at 12:05 PM

Entelechy on May 7, 2008 at 12:00 PM

Yeah. I’ve taken Poly Sci 101.

maybe I’m not framing my question properly. If, to be an origninalist, you must put your mind into that of an 18th century revolutionairy, how do you do so without bringing all the baggage of that time/place with you i.e. racism, sexism, etc…

Again, I don’t want activist judges, I was just moved by Ginsburg’s argument on originalism. Broken clocks and all.

And, again, beyond the basics I’m pretty hopeless, thus the bleg.

VolMagic on May 7, 2008 at 12:05 PM

VolMagic, bunny and all :), here it is in simpler terms:

- A constitution should mean a lot, forever. Thus s/b initiated with lots of care
- A constitution s/b hard to amend, but not impossible
- A constitution s/b amended, as rockhauler explained, and that’s the crux of it – the liberals don’t like that, but it is the best proven way, in all of history
- Your concerns were and will be addressed.

Entelechy on May 7, 2008 at 12:09 PM

how do they square it with how they interpret other parts of the Constitution?

VolMagic on May 7, 2008 at 12:02 PM

One way this is done is by reading the other writings of the Founding Fathers.

Connie on May 7, 2008 at 12:09 PM

cntrlfrk on May 7, 2008 at 11:18 AM

Yup, I tear up now just thinking about the fact that my children will never know the country I grew up in. Obama will destroy this country.

ihasurnominashun on May 7, 2008 at 12:10 PM

Of all the candidates, I believed that Giuliani would have nominated the best judges.

Too bad Republicans need a Christian Leader-in-Chief and not a Commander-in-Chief.

its vintage duh on May 7, 2008 at 12:10 PM

rockhauler on May 7, 2008 at 12:04 PM

Exactly. That’s the point. It’s not a judge’s job to do “what is right”, but to do what the law says. If it says you have to discriminate, it isn’t your job as a judge to ignore that and rule otherwise. It’s by the people’s representatives in the legislature to lobby for reform. The judges are appointed, not elected, therefore they do not represent any constituency and are not the voice of the people. That’s why groups will band together, march, and demand a change in the law (i.e., suffrage and the civil rights), make a societal change that trickles up towards the legislature.

That’s what irks me the most about liberals; they don’t want to work for anything, including the issues they care about most. Look at how long the pro-life movement has been at it, and that work is beginning to pay off.

Viewtifulgare on May 7, 2008 at 12:10 PM

That is the duty of the legislature, the elected representatives of ‘the people’. Using the declared, stated process for amending the US Constitution, make changes that reflect the changing views of ‘the people’.

rockhauler on May 7, 2008 at 12:04 PM

I’m not making an argument for activist judges. I’m asking for illumination on Ginsburg’s argument, which I find persuasive. In your answer, you refer to ‘the people.’ Unless I am mistaken, and I very well may be, an orginalist would be forced to view ‘the people’ as only white males, no?

For instance, how would an orginalist view the 15th and 19th ammendments?

VolMagic on May 7, 2008 at 12:11 PM

rockhauler, great minds :) I just explained that to VolMagic, who seems to be in need of more chicken soup.

Entelechy on May 7, 2008 at 12:05 PM

You are too kind.
Slow dial up, slow reader, and occasionally I try to think a bit before erupting. (slow thinker) Heh.

rockhauler on May 7, 2008 at 12:11 PM

VolMagic on May 7, 2008 at 12:05 PM

Of course thigs change. There was no internet, no U.N., there were no cars, no computers…bla, bla, bla many things when the constitution was framed.

However, one of my favorite comparisons are these

- how small our constitution is compared to all others
- how the EU can’t get one together
- how the EU has 4000 pages written as processes to just sell candy, yes, just candy. See the 9001 references.

Entelechy on May 7, 2008 at 12:12 PM

In our earlier threads, some of our commenters insisted that there would be no difference between McCain and Obama on judicial appointments.

I think in terms of outcome, there’s not a lot of difference, unless the Dems get a filibuster proof majority, and then they’ll hold out for a Ginsberg.

McCain is not going to nominate conservatives along the lines of Alito, or fight for a conservative nominee, and his Gang membership makes the President a lot less of an integral part of the process. This National Review article puts the nails in the Gang’s coffin, defend them as McCain continues to do. At this point, we’re at the mercy of how hard a GOP minority will fight, but we know we can’t rely on McCain to go to bat for conservative judges; ask Henry Saad. The best we can hope for from The Mav and “his friends” on the left is an O’Connor. The man who defends McCain-Feingold to this day really doesn’t care about originalism. Don’t look at what he says, look at what he’s done.

Laura on May 7, 2008 at 12:13 PM

rockhauler, in that case, I wish many, many more were like you :) Regards,

Entelechy on May 7, 2008 at 12:14 PM

VolMagic on May 7, 2008 at 12:11 PM

Read this.

Thomas Jefferson and Slavery

Connie on May 7, 2008 at 12:14 PM

an orginalist would be forced to view ‘the people’ as only white males, no?

VolMagic on May 7, 2008 at 12:11 PM

Not since Lincoln freed the slaves, and women won the right to vote.

For instance, how would an orginalist view the 15th and 19th ammendments?

uh, as part of the US Constitution? Why do you insist the amendments are somehow ‘different’?

rockhauler on May 7, 2008 at 12:15 PM

Entelechy on May 7, 2008 at 12:12 PM

Heh. Yeah, I like our Constituion as well. I just have trouble with this philosophy. I know Scalia is much smarter than I am, and I’m sure he has very good reasons for believing as he does. I also think Ginsburg (though I disagree with her very much) is also a smart cookie and has good reasons for believing as she does.

When it comes to orginalism, however, I have yet to see an argument that conteracts Ginsburgs’.

VolMagic on May 7, 2008 at 12:16 PM

Laura,

I rest my case.

Jaibones on May 7, 2008 at 12:18 PM

Dark-Star on May 7
Not only will we not be laughing…we’ll be weeping bitterly as we view the shattered remnants of the United States.

That is dead on accurate. If this nut gets elected with ZERO qualifications, his extremist radical left wing agenda, and both houses of Congress behind him, we have the makings of the total demise of the greatest country the world has ever known.
He will destroy the economic structure of this country, eliminate any remaining national security we have, turn the judicial system into his personal bypass of the Constitution, and the United States will cease to be a world power (for good I might add) in any way. The only positive outcome is that the economic disaster brought on by converting the US to Socialism might stem the tide of illegals flocking to this country. There won’t be anything left to attract them. Our health care and educational systems will collapse along with the economy. This is assuming we have’t been left in ruins by terrorism.

STOP HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

libhater on May 7, 2008 at 12:19 PM

Connie on May 7, 2008 at 12:14 PM

Aha! Thank you. I guess I shouldn’t just take what Ginsburg says at face value. Thanks again.

VolMagic on May 7, 2008 at 12:19 PM

Is Giuliani anywhere on McCain’s VP shortlist? I know it wouldn’t appeal to the base much, but it’d appeal to the center, and he makes a really good talking head – which I think is pretty much all the VP does, isn’t it?

apollyonbob on May 7, 2008 at 11:47 AM

He’d be a pretty good “insurance policy” for McCain as well. It’s always been my feeling that the reason why the Democrats have not tried harder to push Bush out of office is that they’d get President Cheney as a result of their efforts. To some extent, the VP needs to be an enforcer, and Rudy fits the bill.

Big S on May 7, 2008 at 12:20 PM

rockhauler on May 7, 2008 at 12:15 PM

Wasn’t insisting they were different. Just wondering how, in my apparently flawed view of what an orginalist is, one would have viewed them at the time.

VolMagic on May 7, 2008 at 12:21 PM

If, to be an origninalist, you must put your mind into that of an 18th century revolutionairy

The Constitution is not a difficult document to parse.

The Constitution has 27 amendments to it. 17 of them were written after the Bill of Rights, of which most were penned and ratified after 1900 while the nation already had an established system of state and federal laws.

The difficulty of Con law, as I understand it, is not the Constitution itself, but the weed-choked field of case law surrounding it. The Constitution is a simple document. That’s why it works. Or, why it’s worked for so long.

spmat on May 7, 2008 at 12:23 PM

I can see it now, President B.O. calling his good buddy Billy Ayers, asking him if he would be interested in being a judge on the Supreme Court. Right after he mends fences with the Anything But Righteous Reverend Wrong Way Wright and appoints him Chaplain of the U.S. Congress.

Be afraid.

Be very afraid.

pilamaye on May 7, 2008 at 12:23 PM

VolMagic, one more time, for the last time

Exactly. That’s the point. It’s not a judge’s job to do “what is right”, but to do what the law says.

Viewtifulgare on May 7, 2008 at 12:10 PM

Judges are supposed to enforce the laws, not to make them. The latter part, in our system, belongs to the people, and our representatives.

Alas, our ‘representatives’ who’ve become eunichs, on both sides of the isle, and our judges, who’re whores of all kinds, sell us, often, and that’s the crux of it.

It’s mind-blowing insidious and dangerous how a former professor of constitutional law, Barack Obama, doesn’t know better, and how he expects this to be ‘bought’ by the rest of us. Ain’t going to happen.

Forget Wright and all that crap. He’s a Marxist, Michelle is an anarchist, and this is just one example. He’ll be hit hard from the quarters that constitute the majority of voters. Blacks, youth and the ‘intellectual’, plus a few idealists, a majority don’t add up to.

Entelechy on May 7, 2008 at 12:24 PM

VolMagic on May 7, 2008 at 12:21 PM

Perhaps a better question would be; “Why did the originalists include in the US Constitution a process where that Constitution could be amended?”

rockhauler on May 7, 2008 at 12:26 PM

Rudy for AG? Discuss amongst yourselves, I’m verklempt.

TABoLK on May 7, 2008 at 12:26 PM

McCain would have two choices in filling a Supreme Court vacancy. He could 1) send up a nominee acceptable to the Democrats, or 2) leave the seat vacant. His history suggests that he’d go for Option 1.

paul006 on May 7, 2008 at 11:24 AM

Sorry, but that’s a simplistic and pre-political view of how a Supreme Court nomination works. “Acceptable” varies according to political interests and context. Not least because of the Gang of 14 compromise that far right conservatives like to complain about, as well as McCain’s own prior votes, he would have a much greater ability to demand deference to the presidential prerogatives in the nomination of qualified justice. The political cost to the Democrats in opposing a qualified nominee on nothing but far left ideological grounds would potentially be very high. It would be just the kind of political gift that conservatives should pray for. They won’t even be in a position to hope for them with Obama in the White House.

A McCain victory would rightly be a mandate for a right center approach to the executive, including nominations. An Obama victory would, sadly, be a mandate for a leftwing re-making of the government, especially if it comes in conjunction with gains in both the House and Senate. No one can know what the exact secondary effects would be, but no one is going to be jumping over his own shadow.

CK MacLeod on May 7, 2008 at 12:27 PM

I agree that Obama’s judicial nominations would be a disaster (I’ve been saying that for 3 months).

The question is, can we trust what John McCain is saying? I hope we can, but I fear that he is saying what is necessary to get elected, and will appoint Souters once he takes office.

Red Pill on May 7, 2008 at 12:27 PM

Nail On Head. Ed.

Griz on May 7, 2008 at 12:28 PM

spmat on May 7, 2008 at 12:23 PM

Gotcha. I was following a powerful emotional argument (my first clue I was on the wrong track) put forth by Ginsburg. I have been straightened out since.

VolMagic on May 7, 2008 at 12:29 PM

rockhauler on May 7, 2008 at 12:26 PM

I think we are talking at cross purposes. No need to be sophomoric.

VolMagic on May 7, 2008 at 12:32 PM

Red Pill, it must be a new day at HA, because you haven’t said, yet, that Huckabee would do better. I’m proud of you, because it must have been hard to contain yourself. But I’m glad you’re trying :)

Entelechy on May 7, 2008 at 12:32 PM

VolMagic on May 7, 2008 at 11:42 AM

That’s not much of an argument. One could just as well extend the vote to 17 year olds and then claim that all laws made before that day do not have to be obeyed. And if Ginzburg really believed her own argument she would not serve on a court created by a pool of people she feels had no right to pass laws.

snaggletoothie on May 7, 2008 at 12:33 PM

Entelechy on May 7, 2008 at 12:24 PM

I hear ya, Ent.

I wasn’t advoacating for Judicial fiat. There are other ways to be a conservative judge without being an originalist. I was just confused, apparently, on what that term implied (cause I listened to Ginsburg :( ).

VolMagic on May 7, 2008 at 12:34 PM

rockhauler on May 7, 2008 at 12:04 PM

+1

awake on May 7, 2008 at 12:38 PM

Judges are supposed to enforce the laws, not to make them. The latter part, in our system, belongs to the people, and our representatives.

Not true. The function of legislature is to create laws and regulations. The function of the executive is to execute and enforce laws. The judiciary interprets laws, has the function of resolving disputes between parties based on the law, and has the power to determine which laws apply to a given case and/or to resolve conflicts between different laws when they arise. The final point gives the courts the ability to “create law” in the sense that they may determine where laws conflict, and what to do about it. Even taking the most “originalist” view of constitutional law, delineating the boundaries between laws often has the appearance of creating new ones.

Big S on May 7, 2008 at 12:38 PM

I love how Obama claims to be a Christian and an expert on the law and completely misses God’s standards for how judges are to judge…

2 “Do not follow the crowd in doing wrong. When you give testimony in a lawsuit, do not pervert justice by siding with the crowd, 3 and do not show favoritism to a poor man in his lawsuit. –Exodus 23:2-3

…and…

15 ” ‘Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly. –Leviticus 19:15

…and…

18 Appoint judges and officials for each of your tribes in every town the LORD your God is giving you, and they shall judge the people fairly. 19 Do not pervert justice or show partiality. Do not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of the righteous. 20 Follow justice and justice alone, so that you may live and possess the land the LORD your God is giving you. –Deuteronomy 16:18-20

dominigan on May 7, 2008 at 12:38 PM

Astyer pastor BO! He’ll tell you, “Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour” (Leviticus 19:15). NOT!!!! I guess black liberation theology allows selective attention to the word of God.

smellthecoffee on May 7, 2008 at 12:40 PM

…wanna clue me in on how to be an orginalist with that argument in mind?

VolMagic on May 7, 2008 at 11:42 AM

The problem is with your understanding of what the Constitution was about. The Constitution was not about ‘the people’ – meaning the people represented by the government (black,white, female did not matter).

The Constitution restricts the GOVERNMENT. Our founding fathers knew that the greatest threat to freedom was GOVERNMENT. The Constitution was meant to restrict GOVERNMENT. We the people is just who the government represents. But the Constitution did not GIVE ANY PEOPLE (black, female, white. . .) ANY RIGHTS! The Constitution limited the power of the government.

Separation of powers was intended so that no one person could take freedom from the ‘we the people’ through the apparatus of government.

The short answer to your question is that the Constitution is not about ‘we the people’. The Constitution is about what the government is restricted from doing to ‘we the people’ through the power of the government.

I hope this helps.

ThackerAgency on May 7, 2008 at 12:40 PM

ThackerAgency on May 7, 2008 at 12:40 PM

Well said.

Laura on May 7, 2008 at 12:43 PM

…if President Obama fills those slots with a Democratic majority in the Senate, conservatives won’t be laughing then or for the next twenty years afterwards.

That fact alone is enough reason to vote for McCain. Four years of Obama with a Dem Crongress, and this place will look like France, or worse.

petefrt on May 7, 2008 at 12:47 PM

Big S, of course, you’re totally right. The process should, however, end at the SCOTUS, and not begin there. We’re in agreement, I think.

ThackerAgency, great comment at 12:40.

Entelechy on May 7, 2008 at 12:49 PM

That fact alone is enough reason to vote for McCain. Four years of Obama with a Dem Crongress, and this place will look like France, or worse.

petefrt on May 7, 2008 at 12:47 PM

_
_
Amen.

Hold your nose if you must, but for God’s sake pull the lever.

SlimyBill on May 7, 2008 at 12:50 PM

The Constitution restricts the GOVERNMENT. Our founding fathers knew that the greatest threat to freedom was GOVERNMENT. The Constitution was meant to restrict GOVERNMENT. We the people is just who the government represents. But the Constitution did not GIVE ANY PEOPLE (black, female, white. . .) ANY RIGHTS! The Constitution limited the power of the government.

You should review your history. The Constitution contains a number of clauses, such as the following (later clarified by the 14th Amendment), which implies the rights f individuals. Also, the Bill of Rights (ratified immediately after the original text of the Constitution) is co-equal with the original text, and is not to be dismissed. The Constitution (and all of tis amendments) does guarantee individual rights. Your interpretation is more dangerous than Obama’s.

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.

Big S on May 7, 2008 at 12:54 PM

But the Constitution did not GIVE ANY PEOPLE (black, female, white. . .) ANY RIGHTS! The Constitution limited the power of the government.

ThackerAgency on May 7, 2008 at 12:40 PM

Bingo. The founders believed that our rights are given to us by God, and the Constitution’s main purpose is give the Government just enough power to do what it needs to do (the Articles of Confederation were too restrictive) while limiting it’s power so that it could not take away our rights.

That hasn’t stopped liberals and activist judges from trying to take away our rights (like our rights that are supposed to be protected by the 1st and 2nd Amendments). The first Amendment was meant to prevent Congress from restricting the freedom of religious expression in speech, press, assembly, and petitioning the government for a redress of grievances. However, liberal activist courts have restricted religious expression in many instances, using the non-constitutional, misconstrued “separation of church and state”.

Red Pill on May 7, 2008 at 12:56 PM

“She said that “We the people,” in it’s original intent, did not include women or blacks. That’s a pretty powerful argument.”

It just shows that Ginsburg has a probelm. Isn’t that what amending the constitution about. Not “we the judges” but “we the people”

“…for a bill to pass both houses of the legislature, by a two-thirds majority in each. Once the bill has passed both houses, it goes on to the states. This is the route taken by all current amendments. Because of some long outstanding amendments, such as the 27th, Congress will normally put a time limit (typically seven years) for the bill to be approved as an amendment (for example, see the 21st and 22nd).”

davod on May 7, 2008 at 12:57 PM

I don’t like activist judges.

That said, during the Scalia interview on 60 minuets, I saw Justice Ginsburg give a pretty strong case against origninalism. She said that “We the people,” in it’s original intent, did not include women or blacks. Thats a pretty powerful argument.

Any legal know-it-alls wanna clue me in on how to be an orginalist with that argument in mind?

I’m not a legal know-it-all….but I’d point out the following to Justice Ginsburg:

The 13th, 14th, 15th and 19th Amendments were passed and ratified as outlined in the Constitution of the United States, not by judicial activism.

tgharris on May 7, 2008 at 1:07 PM

Gotcha. I was following a powerful emotional argument (my first clue I was on the wrong track) put forth by Ginsburg. I have been straightened out since.

VolMagic on May 7, 2008 at 12:29 PM

Appeal to authority. If you can’t defend her argument, then either you aren’t capable of defending it, or it’s indefensible.

Her argument is a modernist application of a very post-modern idea, to wit that words have no clear meaning outside of the mind of the person that reads them. It’s the same philosophy that asked in all seriousness what the meaning of the word “is” is.

You could just as easily ask Ginsburg, “If you cannot discern the meaning of the Constitution without being an 18th century revolutionary, then how can I discern your argument on its meaning without being a 21st century leftist Jewish woman?” Her argument destroys itself.

I say her argument is really in favor of strict construction. Since only

she

can truly discern the real intent of her words, then I am at liberty to make them mean what I wish, if I so choose.

spmat on May 7, 2008 at 1:11 PM

McCain should have Guliani as a legal/judicial advisor, if not AG, and Romney as economic advisor. Then he should deep-six that open-borders idiot, which would go far to assuage conservatives that McCain can be judged by the company he keeps. If only HopeChange BitterCling could figure out that basic human principle.

John the Libertarian on May 7, 2008 at 1:15 PM

Why am I not surprised that a Constitutional Law professor, in law school, doesn’t know a damn thing about either the Constitution, or the role of the Supreme Court?

It’s that typical Ivory Tower, where they’ve always talked the talk, but never walked the walk. Most of my law professors couldn’t find the Courthouse. And so it goes.

OhEssYouCowboys on May 7, 2008 at 1:16 PM

Also, “We the people” did not categorically exclude blacks in its original intent. First, this is obvious in that there were free blacks in the voting population that helped ratify the Constitution. Second, given the extant anti-slavery movement supported by none other than the elder statesman of the Constitutional Convention, Benjamin Franklin, there was enough documented evidence for the support of suffrage for blacks within the minds of those responsible for the intent of the Constitution (within Ginsburg’s definition of intent).

At best, she could make an argument that “We the people” was intentionally vague.

spmat on May 7, 2008 at 1:24 PM

What is going on at the Drudge Report? Is he really in the can for Obama?
bnelson44 on May 7, 2008 at 11:32 AM
Anything is possible…When I told my husband that I didn’t like Drudge anymore (since he seems left of center), he told me that his site is just a bulletin board for news. Whatever, MD seems like a ho fo da left anyway.
Barack IS the presumptive nominee tho; is that what you were objecting to? The Obama headline with the snapshot of the happy couple? Kinda scary, despite the smiles.

Christine on May 7, 2008 at 1:43 PM

That said, during the Scalia interview on 60 minuets, I saw Justice Ginsburg give a pretty strong case against origninalism. She said that “We the people,” in it’s original intent, did not include women or blacks. Thats a pretty powerful argument.

VolMagic on May 7, 2008 at 11:42 AM

VolMagic,

“We the people” appears in the preamble as a non-operative phrase. No case has ever been decided by reference to the preamble.

But to Justice Ginsburg’s larger point, the answer is this: If the Constitution is amiss, it can be changed — by democratic process.

That said, all justices, including the conservative ones, are political. And our support here for conservative, “non-activist” judges is also political. We favor originalism because it’s likely to produce political results that we agree with. In other words, our choice of interpretative philosophy is not an accident. We should be honest about that.

(Nowhere does the Constitution say how it should be interpreted. Accordingly, our choice of an originalist approach is itself extraconstitutional, i.e. activist. We just like to pretend that we’re doing something different from what the liberals are doing. But we’re not. We’re just looking for different results.)

paul006 on May 7, 2008 at 1:59 PM

paul006 on May 7, 2008 at 1:59 PM

I hear you, but I would disagree on one point. Scalia made a point of painting his originalism as a-political. He said, if he was acting in a political manner, he would work to use the Court to prohibit abortion in all of the U.S.
Because he is an originalist, he takes the stance that the Constitution says nothing about abortion, so it should not be decided on the federal level. In that sense, he is defferring his person political beliefs to his stance that the Consitution apply to a very limited set of things which the Court does have jurisdiction over.

VolMagic on May 7, 2008 at 2:15 PM

Hey, this’ll learn me to go to wiki first:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Originalism

That clears it up for me I tihnk.

VolMagic on May 7, 2008 at 2:20 PM

kcd on May 7, 2008 at 11:50 AM

LMFAO… I have all of those, plus a few more. A couple Farmers Alms, a few books on gardens in cold weather, a few on what type of wild folliage is better then others plus one about bugs. Not like I would want to eat a bug, and have on a dare, but still I have them just in case.

upinak on May 7, 2008 at 2:24 PM

Big S on May 7, 2008 at 12:54 PM

Me thinks he meant that the Constitution didn’t give rights to the people, but reconized that their rights predated the constitution.

Akzed on May 7, 2008 at 2:27 PM

… [McCain] would have a much greater ability to demand deference to the presidential prerogatives in the nomination of qualified justice. The political cost to the Democrats in opposing a qualified nominee on nothing but far left ideological grounds would potentially be very high.

CK MacLeod on May 7, 2008 at 12:27 PM

McCain could demand whatever he likes. But with Democrats likely to hold a near filibuster-proof majority, Patrick Leahy would have no reason to even permit a committee vote on any nominee not meeting with his approval.

Leahy would pay no political price whatsoever, much less a “very high” one, for constraining McCain’s judicial appointments. Republicans cannot take Leahy’s Senate seat from him. The voters of Vermont are liberals, and they want Leahy to obstruct Republican judicial appointments.

If elected, McCain can either nominate center-left justices, or he can leave the seats vacant. The Democrats will permit nothing else, and they don’t have to.

paul006 on May 7, 2008 at 2:28 PM

I have always found it strange that a document (the constitution), written in black and white can be read in so many shades of grey.

irongrampa on May 7, 2008 at 2:37 PM

What really frosts my fanny is that the Dems have held in suspension the fates of numerous nominees to the bench, hoping to run out the clock on Bush’s term. The Dems assuredly want to pack the courts, not just the Supreme Court, with social-activist judges.

There is no question that McCain will choose judges wisely. If Olson is guiding him and he has Rudy’s and Fred’s endorsement on this issue, McCain is the preferred candidate as an upholder of the Constitution.

onlineanalyst on May 7, 2008 at 2:43 PM

So, the question is, do Scalia and other orginalists see “We the people” to mean only white men? And if they don’t, which I’m pretty sure of, how do they square it with how they interpret other parts of the Constitution?

VolMagic on May 7, 2008 at 12:02 PM

How about looking at the dilemma this way: “We the people” are the enfranchised. Once upon a time, those were only white men– and landholders and landholders at that IIRC. Because now both women and minorities have a vote secured through amendments, they are recognized members of “we the people” via Constitutional law. An originalist examines the whole document, amendments and all.

Interestingly, neither Obama nor Clinton as lawmakers have introduced or passed legislation to achieve their social “justice” agendas. Their preferred method is to rely on the courts.

onlineanalyst on May 7, 2008 at 2:53 PM

VolMagic on May 7, 2008 at 2:15 PM

Scalia made a point of painting his originalism as a-political.

Well, yes, of course he did! And the liberal justices will also tell you that their interpretive philosophy is apolitical. But this is just for show. The very act of choosing an interpretive philosophy is itself a political choice. Why? Because once you pick an interpretive philosophy, you can usually predict the outcome of cases. (Relatedly, when originalism doesn’t give Justice Scalia the result he wants, he stops being an originalist! See, for example, his concurring opinion in Gonzales v. Raich, where he departs from the original understanding of the commerce clause. Wasn’t convenient.)

Because he is an originalist, he takes the stance that the Constitution says nothing about abortion, so it should not be decided on the federal level.

He’s just trading one small value for a large value, i.e. he trades the smaller value of positively proscribing abortion for the larger value of a judicial philosophy that gives him what he wants most of the time.

Also, Justice Scalia is smart enough to know that the Court could not positively proscribe abortion without putting the country on the brink of civil war, or putting himself in danger of impeachment. (The Court doesn’t do things that it knows it can’t get away with. That’s why it won’t legalize same-sex marriage. Not yet anyway.)

Judge Richard Posner (Reagan appointee, 7th Circuit) has a new book that might interest you: How Judges Think. See especially the chapter “The Supreme Court is a Political Court.”

paul006 on May 7, 2008 at 2:57 PM

On the Obama short list for SCOTUS, I present Patricia Williams, distinguished professor at Columbia Law:

Abstract Critical Race Theory (C.R.T.) has developed out of a deep dissatisfaction that many black legal scholars in the U.S. felt with liberal civil rights discourse, a discourse premised upon the ideals of assimilation, ‘colour-blindness’ and integration. In addition, the emergence of the Critical Legal Studies movement provided Critical Race theorists with an innovative lexicon and practice which allowed them to develop a critique of traditional race analysis and U.S. law. Patricia Williams has played a key role in the formation of the C.R.T. movement and is concerned with many of the C.R.T. themes: the understanding that traditional civil rights law has benefited whites more than blacks, the ‘call to context’, and the critique of liberalism by the assertion that racism is routine and not aberrational. Following the C.R.T. belief that form and substance are connected, Williams has also extended the boundaries of another C.R.T. theme by (largely) eschewing the conventional genre of legal writing in much of her work, including her two books, The Alchemy of Race and Rights and The Rooster’s Egg. This was one of the issues Williams discussed in an interview that commenced when she visited Britain in 1997 to deliver the Reith Lectures.

http://www.uic.edu/classes/las/las400/conferencealt.htm

Other law prof names to google:
Douglass Cassel, Harold Koh

If you can’t see the difference in Obama’s mileu and McCain’s you actually are certifiable.

funky chicken on May 7, 2008 at 3:23 PM

He’s just trading one small value for a large value, i.e. he trades the smaller value of positively proscribing abortion for the larger value of a judicial philosophy that gives him what he wants most of the time.

Sure. The idea that there actually IS a written constitution and that it actually says some things and not others is just a bad joke, right?. Everything is simply a matter of different interpetations, there is not right or wrong.

You’re a parody of liberalism.

flenser on May 7, 2008 at 5:26 PM

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