McCain backing off his plan for a League of Democracies?
posted at 4:21 pm on May 2, 2008 by Allahpundit
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A few days old but a worthwhile read on this very slow Friday afternoon, especially in light of the punch-up in the comments to the Headlines item last night. Maverick’s been pushing this idea for fully a year now as a de facto compromise between neocon and realist foreign policy views. For the former, it’s a counterweight to the UN based on the principle that not all nations are morally equal to America; for the latter, it’s a counterweight to Bushian unilateralism based on the principle that some nations, at least, are. McCain name-checked it in his big foreign policy speech but it’s still not clear what he has in mind, possibly because he hasn’t thought the concept through beyond what it’ll do for him with independents and Reagan Democrats in the fall. The LA Times thinks he’s lately taken to “scaling back” the plan, but I think he’s just keeping things nice and vague so that you can read into it whatever your heart desires.
McCain first proposed a League of Democracies last year, describing a formal organization that could use military force as well as economic and diplomatic pressure. It would be organized by the United States, much like NATO after World War II…
In an article in Foreign Affairs magazine in November, McCain called for “linking democratic nations in one common organization” that could provide a common structure for countries whose troops serve on joint missions…
Now, however, McCain says the group would not use military force, and would be an informal organization in which democratic nations come together in different groupings, depending on their varying concerns.
“It does not envision military action,” McCain told reporters in Dallas on April 11. He said it would “not be a formal organization; it would be a coalition of nations that shifts sometimes depending on what their priorities are.”…
Noting McCain’s language in the Foreign Affairs article, [former Clinton advisor James] Lindsay said that what McCain described to reporters April 11 “are ad hoc coalitions of the willing, which are something quite different, even if they draw on democracies for their main contributors.”
Yeah, good point. If the coalitions are going to shift from issue to issue then why do you need a League? McCain himself promised in Foreign Affairs that it won’t supplant the UN but would merely, ahem, complement it, in which case all it is is another drag on effective international action. Sometimes you’ll want or need help on an issue from an undemocratic country; the League structure will make it hard to engage them without it looking like a betrayal of the organizing principle. On other issues there’ll be rifts between League members, leaving the U.S. with a choice of either bowing to the dissenters’ opinion in the interests of comity or ignoring them and undermining the organization. I think it’s a disaster in the making, ultimately good for little beyond making the symbolic point that, contra the UN, national legitimacy derives from something grander than the simple fact of sovereignty. In which case, it’s really just a non-Non-Aligned Movement. Exit question: How am I wrong? Sell me on this idea.
Update: One other thought. The risk you run by building a potential counterweight to the UN is that it encourages your enemies to build a counterweight to the counterweight, which may have the effect of bringing mostly independent bad actors into closer coordination.
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Put down the multinationalism and step away.
AbaddonsReign on May 2, 2008 at 4:23 PM
If it was based on loose, non-binding cooperation of reasonably like-minded nations (like the G8, perhaps) it could work. If it is more formal and, like the UN, attempts to establish its own authority over sovereign nations in any way it is a bad idea.
DaveS on May 2, 2008 at 4:25 PM
I wish we could just abandon the moronic notion that a bunch of nations need to have any kind of formal organization. It was stupid in the 1940’s, and remains so today. Our sovereignty is far more important than any “consensus” among the world’s peoples.
sondiehl on May 2, 2008 at 4:28 PM
OK. Peckers out. Let’s settle this once and for all.
LimeyGeek on May 2, 2008 at 4:29 PM
What DaveS said. I don’t see how having this to rely on–and occasionally challenge the UN with–hurts our interests.
see-dubya on May 2, 2008 at 4:31 PM
He was misunderstood. He meant League of Democrats.
EJDolbow on May 2, 2008 at 4:32 PM
Who decides the definition of “democratic nations”?
Will, say, Columbia be prevented from joining?
Will, say, Venezuela shift in and out of the coalition?
RushBaby on May 2, 2008 at 4:34 PM
It will be like a dorm-room bull session, but for countries!
Cicero43 on May 2, 2008 at 4:35 PM
Recalls Newt’s blunder on Global Warming: Accept the left’s premise and attempt to put a “conservative” spin on it — rather than confronting the premise itself.
RushBaby on May 2, 2008 at 4:39 PM
If we plan anything, I wanna create the Legion of Doom.
lorien1973 on May 2, 2008 at 4:40 PM
So far, I haven’t found one idea of McCain’s that I like.
Snake307 on May 2, 2008 at 4:42 PM
I’ll try to take on you college wiz-kids. Try being the operative word.
I look at is as an resource when we end up with a Saddam or Kim, or Mugabe for that matter, and the UN sits and spins. Much like a NATO or SEATO arrangement. That said there is only one why it could work and that is by the willing application of force (economic and military). There is the rub, getting that ‘willing’ to mean just that.
The world is too interconnected for us to act alone, unless that means that we have been hung out to dry and must act alone. Then all bets are off. The biggest problem with not providing an alternative to the UN is that the longer we prop them up the more say so they get in our internal affairs.
Rock-hard place. Exact same place I just put myself.
Limerick on May 2, 2008 at 4:45 PM
As far as I can tell, the bad actors are mostly brought together already by the UN, and the UN seems usually willing to quietly accommodate them.
Almost anything would be better than allowing the UN to continue on its current path.
petefrt on May 2, 2008 at 4:46 PM
LIke, say, the Human Rights Commission?
Maquis on May 2, 2008 at 4:47 PM
Colmes always says that Hamas was democratically elected.
Entelechy on May 2, 2008 at 4:48 PM
funny, i remember Democracies being a terrible form of government, democracy is, after all, a “mob-rule” method. which is why the beast of Democracy is caged within our Constitutional Republic.
RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 4:48 PM
I agree about sovereignty.
But an alliance is not a bad idea. I’m picturing coordination of military plans, to the extent that other nations have a military worth considering. And a “dorm-room bull session, but for countries!” And a united front to present to non-democratic countries. Public relations, propaganda, another way to support those small and/or poor and/or otherwise disadvantaged democratic countries and/or countries that need encouragement to make the step to democracy.
How about “nations with representative governments”? The members could vote whether to allow new members. And, I’m sure, that like the UN, we’d be footing a large chunk of the bill, but unlike the UN, we could/would have the most say in questions like “Who gets to join?” Screw the commies, and screw the barbarians in the ME.
I guess like NATO during the Cold War? But dominated even more completely by the US? The “US and Friends Club.” Clothing our unilateral imperialism with a thin cloak of multilateralism.
misterpeasea on May 2, 2008 at 4:49 PM
How about something like Facebook, but only democracies are allowed to join in.
pedestrian on May 2, 2008 at 4:52 PM
I’m for it. Screw the 3rd world dominated UN.
DerKrieger on May 2, 2008 at 4:52 PM
I sure hope we can continue on as we are with NATO and the UN. It’s really working well, what with all the soldiers from NATO countries contributing equally in the Afghanistan fighting and the 2nd UN Human Rights Conference in the near future
a capella on May 2, 2008 at 4:52 PM
No “whew” about it…it doesn’t change the fact that McCain thought it was a good idea.
This is a Soros-backed “League of Democratic Socialists“.
Whether he goes through with it or not, it tells you a lot about McCain, and should be a huge red flag to everyone.
Red Pill on May 2, 2008 at 4:53 PM
Great. Just like the United Nations. After all, that turned out so well, as did the League of Nations.
MadisonConservative on May 2, 2008 at 4:54 PM
Well put.
I prefer 1:1 alliances, US ally with those who strategically will work with us for mutually beneficial treaties. Does the US have such a formal alliance with India already? But to create a new “club” only begets trouble and stirs up the muddy waters.
So is McCain trying to hyjack Hillary’s claim to being the reincarnated Woodrow Wilson? He leaves the domestic progressivism for her to solve, beginning with socialized national health care. He would remain on the international front, trying to re-do Wilson’s League of Nations. Together they will align the US into the New World Order. The old promo of them being good political buddies is bad news.
maverick muse on May 2, 2008 at 4:59 PM
Isn’t that what the G8 is? What’s the difference?
Rick on May 2, 2008 at 5:00 PM
This guy has more red flags than Soviet Russia.
MadisonConservative on May 2, 2008 at 5:02 PM
It’s frightening. When people depend on a ruling elite like we do now, and that ruling elite are as hopelessly corrupt and greedy as they are now, bad things happen. Thing is, they never have to pay the price of their folly. It’s always we who pay. How many US taxpayer funded millionaire debate clubs do we need?
ronsfi on May 2, 2008 at 5:19 PM
Everyone seems to have a good idea about John McCain, who he is, and what he thinks, but who are the people standing behind him and whispering in his ear?
rockhauler on May 2, 2008 at 5:32 PM
As typified by much of the preceding discussion, the post-WW2 American and Euro-American consensus about why it was both in our interests and in keeping with our moral concept of ourselves to stay engaged worldwide, has begun to splinter. Paleo-conservative and yahoo isolationism with its simplistic, superficial, and utterly fantastical pseudo-answers to international challenges become more and more seductive.
We lost the Soviet Union as an active, seemingly equal enemy to keep “the West” united, and, despite the election of more conservative national governments, the Euros within NATO are still far from being dependable or always very useful allies when conflicts approach. The jury is out on whether they will remain committed long-term to their pacifistic and market-socialist approach to just about everything and anything you can think of.
At the same time, there are numerous countries at the edges of Europe or completely outside of it – like Poland, Japan, India, Australia, South Korea, Israel, even Iraq and Afghanistan sooner or later – who have in common a devotion to democratic capitalism, out-sized economic influence, and a willingness to stand up for themselves and each other. Forces within old Europe – still a nuclear-armed economic powerhouse and not yet ready to be completely written off – could also benefit from an alternative source of influence and validation.
It probably would be better to avoid formalizing such a coalition until and unless a single major challenge drawing them together arose, but there’s nothing wrong with coordination between the countries that work, for all our sakes, or with thinking about what advances our mutual interests.
CK MacLeod on May 2, 2008 at 5:41 PM
Isn’t that what Chavez and Castro and Dinnerjacket have been doing these past few years? Something about a “3rd world coalition?” Am I remembering that right?
VolMagic on May 2, 2008 at 6:18 PM
McCain reads and studies widely in foreign affairs. One adviser/author whose work is fairly accessible and very worth taking in in this context is Robert Kagan, whose 2003 book-length essay OF PARADISE AND POWER prevents a very helpful overview of relations between the US and Europe in historical context and going forward. It’s only around 100 pages, and very clear and cogent.
I haven’t read Kagan’s newer book yet, but intend to. Like the other title, it comes with prominent recommendations from McCain himself, as well as from other foreign policy thinkers.
There are several other authors and advisers who can help clue you in on where McCain gets his ideas, but he didn’t start with this stuff yesterday, and he also reads authors “from the other side.” I saw a note earlier this year, at Hugh Hewitt’s blog, that McCain was reading THE COLDEST WINTER – the late David Halberstam’s political-military history of the Korean War. If you can leave aside a few gratuitous paragraphs in which Halberstam leaps ahead to embrace conventional liberal wisdom about Vietnam and Iraq, it’s an extremely interesting and useful look at the formation of US Cold War strategy amidst fierce political and military rivalries, against the background of a fiercely fought yet widely misunderstood war.
The historian Niall Ferguson has sometimes also been mentioned as a McCain guy, though I recall Ferguson himself saying, in effect, that he’s more of a fan than a member of the brain trust. His book THE WAR OF THE WORLD, essentially a history of the 20th Century as a single long struggle defined by the decline of Europe and resultant turmoil, is great and informative, if sometimes deeply depressing, reading.
CK MacLeod on May 2, 2008 at 6:21 PM
Maverick just wants to be the leader of the Justice League. What’s the harm?
TheUnrepentantGeek on May 2, 2008 at 6:49 PM
Drop it, John…
CliffHanger on May 2, 2008 at 6:56 PM
Yes! An online community of nations! Very effectual, and, of course, democratic.
Nichevo on May 2, 2008 at 7:04 PM
I knew McCain was old, but I never knew Woodrow Wilson was his mentor. League of Nations or League of Democracies…. both like the UN… crapola.
MNDavenotPC on May 2, 2008 at 7:54 PM
I would appreciate dismantling the UN and at least kicking it out of the US for its anti-Americanism. Kind of like immigration reform though. . . we’ll work on the future once the border gets secured. We need to get rid of the UN (like Jesse Helms said).
As for ‘what would the harm be’ if the UN and some other mutli-national force disagreed on an international dispute. I can forsee US troops fighting in a civil war in a country like Darfur on BOTH SIDES. The UN would ask for troops for one side and this new league of whatever you want to call it would need troops on the other side – since they disagree and balance out.
I know that sounds stupid, but it’s nearly inevitable if you set up one community to defy the other community. Do away with any ‘league of nations’, ‘united nations’, or any other corrupt union of countries and let our STATE DEPARTMENT handle international diplomacy independently. The Korean situation is a great example of the coalition we can build without a formal group of nations.
ThackerAgency on May 2, 2008 at 9:22 PM
Allah your are really becoming a pain in the @ss. You are too damb pessimistic and cynical. This idea has been circulating for several years. I heard it first mentioned by former Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist. It is fundementally about replacing the UN as the main international body with an organization that consists only of countries with freely elected governments. What the hell is wrong with that?
Stop trashing McCain. He is our best hope at fighting terrorism and controlling spending and keeping health care in the free market. Get your act together and cut out the pessimism.
revolution on May 3, 2008 at 4:57 AM
I’m with revolution on May 3, 2008 at 4:57 AM.
This idea could easily be implemented by having all eligible liberal democracies join NATO and renaming it the United Democracies. Leave the UN to the scumbag countries that presently already determine its agenda.
Kim Hartveld on May 3, 2008 at 5:56 AM
It could be argued that all McCain is doing is recognizing reality.
The League of Nations was created by the Versailles Treaty in 1919-20, with the stated goal of promoting peaceful international cooperation and preventing a future world war (The “War To End All Wars” still being very fresh in everyone’s minds). What most people do not know is that it was only officially dissolved on 18 April 1946, after its member states had reached the conclusion that it had failed in its mission (events from 1932 to 1945 apparently gave them a raging clue, as they say on South Park).
But the United Nations was already established at that time, having been officially created on 26 June 1945. (In fact, the term “United Nations” was first used to describe the alliance against the Axis in January of 1942- see the Wikipedia entry on the United Nations.) It was intended as a confluence of democratic nations to prevent a future war (yet again), and was a direct outgrowth of the wartime alliance between the four great powers of the day; the U.S., Great Britain, France, and the USSR. In retrospect, of course, it can be seen that inviting the Soviet Union in was probably a major mistake, but after Kursk, etc., there was really no way to “disinvite” Uncle Joe.
This seems to me to be the same thing. The creation of, not a “counterbalance” to the UN, but at least potentially a successor to it, reflecting a growing belief that it is a failed and moribund organization that has been hijacked by the very elements it was intended to suppress by “peaceful” means.
To paraphrase Shakespeare (Brutus re Julius Caesar), it could be argued that in this, McCain comes not to praise the United Nations- but to bury it.
cheers
eon
eon on May 3, 2008 at 8:58 AM
No it isn’t. The Korean war was a UN mission, voted for by the Security Council. Also most of the UN troops were American so it could be argued that like in Afghanistan today it was a failure in gaining equal numbers of troop deployments.
aengus on May 4, 2008 at 10:28 AM
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