Definition of insanity, revisited

posted at 1:50 pm on May 2, 2008 by Ed Morrissey

The definition of insanity, as the aphorism instructs, is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. That accurately describes the world’s policy towards Iranian nuclear proliferation, and we’re about to get another demonstration of it. The BBC reports that major world powers will offer Tehran another set of incentives to stop enriching uranium:

Major world powers are to offer Iran updated incentives to stop enriching uranium and end fears it is seeking a nuclear arsenal.

The agreement on a new package was announced by UK Foreign Secretary David Miliband after talks between foreign ministers in London. He said no details would be made public before the offer was made to Tehran.

Iran, which says it is seeking civilian nuclear energy, is under UN sanctions for continuing to enrich uranium.

Friday’s deal was agreed by the five permanent members of the UN Security Council – the US, Russia, China, the UK and France – plus Germany. All were represented by their foreign ministers except for China, which sent a deputy minister.

In case no one noticed, this is the same set of major world powers that tried buying off Iran multiple times over the last six years, to no effect. It includes all of the EU-3, all three of which have changed heads of state since the last offer, plus the US, which explicitly participated in the last two incentive package offers.

Russia and China have joined the other four nations in the incentives, but both nations trade with Iran already, despite pressure to embargo Tehran over their nuclear intransigence. Their participation in this offer might be marginally interesting in that it implies that both will join with the rest of the UNSC if Tehran rejects it. Given the long history of both nations in supporting Iran, that seems very unlikely. They probably see this as a way to mollify the West for a few more months, just as with earlier efforts.

At this point, the Iranians have no reason to agree to a package. They have seen the incentives grow with each rejection. Why not wait to see what another rejection might bring them? Appeasement can be lucrative for the irrational, and it makes the appeasers look like the insane.

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This is part of the run-up to missile strikes. It isn’t meant to accomplish anything except to serve as cover against charges of rushing to war. It’s 2002 again.

Akzed on May 2, 2008 at 1:55 PM

Everyone knows all we have to do is elect Obama, and he will smooth-talk Dinnerjacket out of his nuclear ambitions. I mean, jeeze, it’s like you are interested in facts and history. Don’t you know that if you hope hard enough that change will come and we will be viewed as the Great Teddy Bear instead of the Great Satan?

VolMagic on May 2, 2008 at 1:55 PM

Akzed on May 2, 2008 at 1:55 PM

I’s hopin’ your jokin’

VolMagic on May 2, 2008 at 1:56 PM

Akzed on May 2, 2008 at 1:55 PM

Tonkin! Tonkin! Tonkin!…all together now!

Limerick on May 2, 2008 at 2:03 PM

This sure worked with N Korea didn’t it? We cave, they say they will let inspectors in, they don’t, they get their money to feed their people, they don’t, they send arms to Iran, etc. That little iranian worm has no intentions of doing anything but continue his bomb making, killing Jews American’s, and anyone who isn’t a muslim. Gads we B stupid!
L

letget on May 2, 2008 at 2:05 PM

VolMagic on May 2, 2008 at 1:56 PM

Me too.

Ed Morrissey on May 2, 2008 at 2:06 PM

They are just exhausting and re-exhausting all their option so when Iran is a big sheet of green glass,(Iranian ocean) the big powers can say, “well, we tried everything time and time again!”.
And does anyone else hear the Looney Tunes soundrack when they see a picture of Ahmadinijad? Maybe it’s just me.

Geronimo on May 2, 2008 at 2:10 PM

This is part of the run-up to missile strikes. It isn’t meant to accomplish anything except to serve as cover against charges of rushing to war. It’s 2002 again.

Akzed on May 2, 2008 at 1:55 PM

——-

There are a couple differences.
Ahmadinnerjackets’ WMDs are going to be easier to find.

Our troops are forward-deployed and have good local intel.

The Iranian people have an example right next door, on two fronts, of what an American occupation and a Muslim democracy looks like, one they’re busy killing our troops in by the way – can you say Casus Belli? – and the other being Afghanistan.

The first problem is it’s an election year, and while Booosh isn’t running any more than Bill Clinton is, he and bubba are the clearest ghosts in the machine.

The second problem is the only thing that’s letting the mullahs hold onto power is their anti-US anti-West propaganda. Any attack that doesn’t finish the job will leave them in a *better* position, not a worse one.

Mew

acat on May 2, 2008 at 2:12 PM

I am expecting a much better result this time!

Grafted on May 2, 2008 at 2:13 PM

Iran and Nazi Germany offer a number of parallels. It isn’t just crazy that people keep giving them things to be nice, it’s crazy that the world has not learned what happens when you allow fascists to arm under the guise of offering technology to the folk, when it’s all military production.

Germany made sewing machines that would be machine guns and commercial aircraft that were pre-fitted for bomb bays, and Iran isn’t even bothering to hide anything. Todays world is as crazy or more so than the world of the Thirties…..and we’re talking nukes this time.

Hitler used to laugh and make fun of the big brains of diplomacy after they left his company with optomism, and I’m sure these apes are having the same chuckles in Tehran.

Hening on May 2, 2008 at 2:19 PM

Stop screaming in the grocery store, honey, and mummy will buy you a candy bar.

Stop screaming in the grocery store, honey, and mummy will buy you a candy bar AND ice cream.

Stop screaming in the grocery store, honey, and mummy will buy you a candy bar and ice cream AND a puppy.

That always works.

Tanya on May 2, 2008 at 2:20 PM

This is part of the run-up to missile strikes. It isn’t meant to accomplish anything except to serve as cover against charges of rushing to war. It’s 2002 again. Akzed on May 2, 2008 at 1:55 PM

I think we’ll do everything humanly possible to avoid war with Iran. They WANT war so it will eventually be unavoidable. This war will be different than the one with Iraq. We’re not going to occupy anything we’re just going to blow stuff up. We don’t have to glass the place we just need to take the fun out of mass murder.

Mojave Mark on May 2, 2008 at 2:21 PM

Iran just bought 6 more months for nuclear development. Awesome.

kcluva on May 2, 2008 at 2:24 PM

Gotta nuke sumthin’

LimeyGeek on May 2, 2008 at 2:26 PM

Actually, repeating the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is a common sales technique: the salesman keeps asking you to buy his crap over and over, and every time he gets a different excuse why you can’t buy the crap until you run out of excuses and buy the damn thing.

Not to say that the UN or the approach are not insane… just splitting hairs ;-)

The sane thing to do would be what Bibi has been lobbying for. That won’t happen until the Iranians actually get the bomb in a few years.

AlexB on May 2, 2008 at 2:26 PM

Iranians actually get the bomb in a few years.

AlexB on May 2, 2008 at 2:26 PM

Right after the Jan 21st you are going to see a dust cloud over some Iranian desert mountain. Then it will be ‘Ok Obama, we are ready to talk now’.

Limerick on May 2, 2008 at 2:37 PM

Major world powers are to offer Iran updated incentives to stop enriching uranium and end fears it is seeking a nuclear arsenal.

unless that translates to “we won’t blow you back to the
Stone Age” then I shall remain skeptical…

ps.
for them the stone age = c. 1980

ocbrat on May 2, 2008 at 2:40 PM

The second problem is the only thing that’s letting the mullahs hold onto power is their anti-US anti-West propaganda.

Explain to me how this does not imply that the general population believes or shares the same perspective?

rushing to war

Thats priceless!

dmann on May 2, 2008 at 2:42 PM

It’s gonna work, Ed! The International Community will fix things. After all, Gordon Brown just said it’s time the world give up the outdated idea of national sovereignty and borders and adopt a global New World Order run by the UN. And we know the unblemished record the UN has in conflict resolution. Yer just a hater.

eeyore on May 2, 2008 at 2:45 PM

He said no details would be made public before the offer was made to Tehran.

Maybe they’re offering him San Francisco?

kirkill on May 2, 2008 at 2:47 PM

Maybe they’re offering him San Francisco?

kirkill on May 2, 2008 at 2:47 PM

They can have San Francisco AND Berzerkely. Meh, give ‘em Cambridge too.

Geronimo on May 2, 2008 at 2:51 PM

It’s 2002 again.

Akzed on May 2, 2008 at 1:55 PM

Good point. The US and the rest of the world tried and tried to get Saddam to act reasonably. The UN issued resolution after resolution over years and years. There was a general consensus that Saddam had WMD, but no one had the spine to do anything about it except the US. (And/or they had sweet economic deals and/or bribes with Saddam.)

So finally, after years and years of misbehavior, and years and years of negotiation and entreaty, and months and months of warnings, we rushed to war.

I definitely see the parallels to 2002.

I say again, good point Akzed.

misterpeasea on May 2, 2008 at 2:54 PM

The stimulus package was rumored to contain child brides, burka clad Barbie’s and an autography glossy of the original cast from the Hollywood classic, Planet of the Apes.

dmann on May 2, 2008 at 2:56 PM

That accurately describes the world’s policy towards Iranian nuclear proliferation, and we’re about to get another demonstration of it.

Men ought either to be indulged or utterly destroyed, for if you merely offend them they take vengeance, but if you injure them greatly they are unable to retaliate, so that any injury done to a man ought to be such that vengeance cannot be feared.
- Niccolo Machiavelli

MB4 on May 2, 2008 at 3:11 PM

Well, you see, this is why I get into so much trouble.

I go from “please don’t do that”, to smashed face, eye gouging, smashed larynx, and methodically breaking every rib in your rib cage while your throat swells shut and you asphyxiate, with no intermediate negotiations. Yes, I know it’s insane, but that’s just me.

Needless to say, I’m not a skilled negotiator.

Perhaps next time I should offer a choice; “Which would you prefer 50 bucks or a concussion, to stop doing that?” Would that work? Probably not.

OH, wait, I should be more receptive; “Why are you doing that?”
Ans: “To annoy you!”
“Well, it’s working! So stop it already”

Nope, I don’t see it. Where’s my [expletive] clue stick?

rockhauler on May 2, 2008 at 3:23 PM

letget on May 2, 2008 at 2:05 PM

Yep, you nailed it!

Liberty or Death on May 2, 2008 at 3:33 PM

Oh bloody hell- why not just give them a few nukes in exchange for shutting down their nuke program. That’s the only incentive that they’d be interested in.

Previous deals were very generous, and Iran rejected them- for the obvious reason. What kind of imbecile thinks that they’d accept a deal for nuclear power when their only goal is obtaining nuclear weapons?

Hollowpoint on May 2, 2008 at 3:35 PM

Second carrier group deployed to Gulf as U.S. approves plans for Iran counterstrike

World Tribune
Friday, May 2, 2008

LONDON — The U.S. military has drafted and won approval for attack plans ir response to an Iran attack.
Western diplomatic sources said the U.S. military’s Central Command has submitted plans for an air and naval strike on Iran. The sources said the plan envisioned escalating tensions that would peak with an Iranian-inspired insurgency strike against U.S. military assets in the Gulf.

Meanwhile, on April 29, a second American aircraft carrier, USS Abraham Lincoln, steamed into the Gulf in what officials termed a show of force. They said the U.S. Navy plans to withdraw a carrier group, USS Harry S. Truman, from the region.
“There is tremendous tactical benefit to us to operate the two side-by-side in restricted space,” Lt. Gen. Carter Ham, director of operations at the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said on Wednesday. “We can generate more sorties, some of them strike, some of them reconnaissance, some of them to perform other operations.”
“This is not some grand scheme to destroy the Iranian regime and its nuclear program,” a source said. “It is a practical plan on how to respond to an Iranian strike or a provocation.”

Officials said the Defense Department has sought an update for plans to attack Iran amid what they term its “increasingly hostile role” against the United States. The officials cited the weapons flow to insurgency groups in Iraq as well as confrontations with U.S. ships in the Gulf.

RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 3:37 PM

The little feller keep this up, the IAF or Mossad will come a callin’. I think we’ve seen what they leave as a calling card, haven’t we?

mjk on May 2, 2008 at 3:48 PM

Secret Bush “Finding” Widens War on Iran

ANDREW COCKBURN
Counterpunch
Friday, May 2, 2008

Six weeks ago, President Bush signed a secret finding authorizing a covert offensive against the Iranian regime that, according to those familiar with its contents, “unprecedented in its scope.”

Bush’s secret directive covers actions across a huge geographic area – from Lebanon to Afghanistan – but is also far more sweeping in the type of actions permitted under its guidelines – up to and including the assassination of targeted officials. This widened scope clears the way, for example, for full support for the military arm of Mujahedin-e Khalq, the cultish Iranian opposition group, despite its enduring position on the State Department’s list of terrorist groups.

Similarly, covert funds can now flow without restriction to Jundullah, or “army of god,” the militant Sunni group in Iranian Baluchistan – just across the Afghan border — whose leader was featured not long ago on Dan Rather Reports cutting his brother in law’s throat.

Other elements that will benefit from U.S. largesse and advice include Iranian Kurdish nationalists, as well the Ahwazi arabs of south west Iran. Further afield, operations against Iran’s Hezbollah allies in Lebanon will be stepped up, along with efforts to destabilize the Syrian regime.

All this costs money, which in turn must be authorized by Congress, or at least a by few witting members of the intelligence committees. That has not proved a problem. An initial outlay of $300 million to finance implementation of the finding has been swiftly approved with bipartisan support, apparently regardless of the unpopularity of the current war and the perilous condition of the U.S. economy.

Until recently, the administration faced a serious obstacle to action against Iran in the form of Centcom commander Admiral William Fallon, who made no secret of his contempt for official determination to take us to war. In a widely publicized incident last January, Iranian patrol boats approached a U.S. ship in what the Pentagon described as a “taunting” manner. According to Centcom staff officers, the American commander on the spot was about to open fire. At that point, the U.S. was close to war. He desisted only when Fallon personally and explicitly ordered him not to shoot. The White House, according to the staff officers, was “absolutely furious” with Fallon for defusing the incident.

Fallon has since departed. His abrupt resignation in early March followed the publication of his unvarnished views on our policy of confrontation with Iran, something that is unlikely to happen to his replacement, George Bush’s favorite general, David Petraeus.

Though Petraeus is not due to take formal command at Centcom until late summer, there are abundant signs that something may happen before then. A Marine amphibious force, originally due to leave San Diego for the Persian Gulf in mid June, has had its sailing date abruptly moved up to May 4. A scheduled meeting in Europe between French diplomats acting as intermediaries for the U.S. and Iranian representatives has been abruptly cancelled in the last two weeks. Petraeus is said to be at work on a master briefing for congress to demonstrate conclusively that the Iranians are the source of our current troubles in Iraq, thanks to their support for the Shia militia currently under attack by U.S. forces in Baghdad.

Interestingly, despite the bellicose complaints, Petraeus has made little effort to seal the Iran-Iraq border, and in any case two thirds of U.S. casualties still come from Sunni insurgents. “The Shia account for less than one third,” a recently returned member of the command staff in Baghdad familiar with the relevant intelligence told me, “but if you want a war you have to sell it.”

Even without the covert initiatives described above, the huge and growing armada currently on station in the Gulf is an impressive symbol of American power.

Armed Might of US Marred By Begging Bowl to Arabs

Sometime in the next two weeks, fleet radar operator may notice a blip on their screens that represents something rather more profound: America’s growing financial weakness. The blip will be former Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin’s plane commencing its descent into Abu Dhabi. Rubin’s responsibility these days is to help keep Citigroup afloat despite a balance sheet still waterlogged, despite frantic bail out efforts by the Federal Reserve and others, by staggering losses in mortgage bonds. The Abu Dhabi Sovereign Wealth Fund injected $7.5 billion last November (albeit at a sub-prime interest rate of eleven percent,) but the bank’s urgent need for fresh capital persists, and Abu Dhabi is where the money is.

Even if those radar operators pay no attention to Mr. Rubin’s flight, and the ironic contrast it illustrates between American military power and financial weakness, others will, and not just in Tehran. There’s not much a finding can do about that.

Andrew Cockburn is a regular CounterPunch contributor. He lives in Washington DC. His most recent book is Rumsfeld: His Rise, Fall and Catastrophic Legacy.

RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 3:51 PM

We all know Iran wants to be the victim. It is the only way to keep the Arab world from jumping in. That is until they get the bomb, then all bets are off.

I just wonder how much longer the mullahs can hold back some nut job from running a god&country attack on a cruiser or even just a cargo vessel. Allah Ahkbar and all that nonsense.

Limerick on May 2, 2008 at 3:52 PM

France: We must avoid bombing Iran

Press TV
Friday, May 2, 2008

Washington and its allies must find a solution not to confront Tehran in a way that will involve ‘bombing Iran’, says the French Premier.

“We have to do everything we could to avoid finding ourselves faced with the only solution of bombing Iran,” Prime Minister Francois Fillon said Friday in a news conference.

His remarks come at a time when US echelons have ratcheted up the pressure on Iran over its nuclear program, which the country says is solely aimed at producing electricity and other peaceful purposes.

Washington and its number one ally, Israel, have also threatened the Iranian nation with military strikes if Tehran does not halt its nuclear activities.

Fillon also called on Iran to engage the West regarding its program or face global isolation.

“The only option is to pressure the Iranian government through diplomatic means, economic means and financial means,” he added.

RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 3:54 PM

Well,Iran says over and over that they would like a world
that would be void of Israel”Little Satan” and the United
States of America”Big Satan” and they even have a holiday,
I think it’s called Happy Vapourization day,that some day
that Israel and America would simply dissappear!

Then with these two country’s gone,for Iran it would be
clear sailing for their glorious caliphate to begin,any
challange to Iran would be met with their peaceful nuclear
program of excellerated atom smashing in your back yard!

In Iran’s past,in their history,they almost had the world
2-3 times,now for the first time,Iran will have Atomic
Weapons,21st.Century Weapons in the hands of 3rd.Century
Nazi-style,MAD doesn’t work,if we take 3/4 of the Muslim
world with us to free their religious nut out of the well,
then so be it praise you know who,yada,yada,yada!

And if they get a nuclear weapon system on parr of say Russia,your gonna feel real secure knowing that one
day,some Jihady might act alone and launch,you know the
72 virgins,and praise you know who!

The only deterrent that will work for Iran,Syria,Baaka
Valley,is a large smokin gaping hole,make no mistake,Iran
will push the button long before Israel or the United States
will!

canopfor on May 2, 2008 at 4:10 PM

RMC1618

thanks for the link. But you have to help me out. Since I’m conservative I can’t really understand most things until I have them properly labeled.

So how would you characterize CounterPunch?

rockhauler on May 2, 2008 at 4:11 PM

So how would you characterize CounterPunch?

rockhauler on May 2, 2008 at 4:11 PM

don’t know, never heard of them before today.

RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 4:22 PM

>“The only option is to pressure the Iranian government through diplomatic means, economic means and financial means,” he added.
RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 3:54 PM

The US and many other governments have been doing the above for many years, since the 1979 Iranian revolution and where has it gotten us? I’ll tell you where its gotten us, its gotten us a more belligerent Iran, a more hostile Iran, a more powerful Iran, an Iran that thinks we are weak (because all we do is negotiate and bribe them with incentives) and an Iran that is on the verge of getting the most destructive WMD known to man…a nuclear weapon!

All these years (29 years to be exact) of appeasement and negotiation have placed the US and the West in a much more precarious and dangerous situation, yet what as Iran done for the US and the West…nothing except to threaten the US and West with annihilation while fully supporting and funding terrorism around the world!

With this in mind, are you (RMC1618) really advocating we continue on the path of negotiation and appeasement, a path that has accomplished NOTHING except make us look weak and placed us in a more precarious and dangerous situation?

So RMC1618, should we wait until we see a mushroom cloud over one of our cities before doing something since it is obvious the tact we have taken over the last 29 years has done more harm than good? If you think we should continue to wait and continue to appease and negotiate would you mind petitioning the Mad Mullahs in Iran to aim that nuke over your city and not mine!

Liberty or Death on May 2, 2008 at 4:39 PM

It’s silly talking about how many years we will have to spend in the jungles of Vietnam when we could pave the whole country and put parking stripes on it and still be home by Christmas.

Replace Vietnam with Iran and that about explains how I feel about it.

Dawnsblood on May 2, 2008 at 4:48 PM

Liberty or Death on May 2, 2008 at 4:39 PM

Bro, I didn’t write the article, i just copied it. i don’t know why you’re pissed off at me.

RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 4:52 PM

Major world powers are to offer Iran updated incentives to stop enriching uranium

Reminds me of that old joke: A priest goes to the zoo. He notices a big crowd at the monkey cage. When he gets there, one of the monkeys is masturbating. The priest asks the zookeeper if he gave the monkey a cracker would he stop. The zookeeper says “Would you?”

Kafir on May 2, 2008 at 5:05 PM

Liberty or Death on May 2, 2008 at 4:39 PM

But, since you asked so nicely…

With this in mind, are you (RMC1618) really advocating we continue on the path of negotiation and appeasement, a path that has accomplished NOTHING except make us look weak and placed us in a more precarious and dangerous situation?

in my opion, the results of our methods have not been in our favor, and i think a new strategy should be implemented. War however, (large scale bombings, boots on the ground) should be our very last resort. i think a lot of people today have forgotten just what war means, they think it’s something they can watch on TV, while flipping back and forth with American Idolatry. i believe a lot of people think we can “just go to war” like it’s some casual thing we do everyday.

So RMC1618, should we wait until we see a mushroom cloud over one of our cities before doing something since it is obvious the tact we have taken over the last 29 years has done more harm than good? If you think we should continue to wait and continue to appease and negotiate would you mind petitioning the Mad Mullahs in Iran to aim that nuke over your city and not mine!

if you support a foreign policy of preventive attacks, that’s you. i personally dont.

RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 5:08 PM

So how would you characterize CounterPunch?

rockhauler on May 2, 2008 at 4:11 PM
don’t know, never heard of them before today.

RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 4:22 PM

Liberty or Death on May 2, 2008 at 4:39 PM

Bro, I didn’t write the article, i just copied it. i don’t know why you’re pissed off at me.

RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 4:52 PM

I call “Troll”, anyone else? A beingn, “Dude, I’m just postin’ stuff, see?” troll, but nevertheless…

if you support a foreign policy of preventive attacks, that’s you. i personally dont.

RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 5:08 PM

Yeah, it’s far better to be in a situation where some Major City like SF or NYC is a smoking, radioactive hole in the ground, with a shadow NGO like Al-Quaeda claiming responsibility. What would be the appropriate response, in this case, according to the free and open minds at Counter-Punch? Have the FBI serve warrants to folks, asking them nicely to report on their respective court dates?

dmh0667 on May 2, 2008 at 5:47 PM

posted at 1:50 pm on May 2, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
Thanks Ed!

Akzed on May 2, 2008 at 1:55 PM

And the problem is……?

VolMagic on May 2, 2008 at 1:56 PM

don’t worry.

Limerick on May 2, 2008 at 2:03 PM

Once again…you show you’re a …nevermind….

Ed Morrissey on May 2, 2008 at 2:06 PM

again….. don’t worry!

Hening on May 2, 2008 at 2:19 PM

sad but true!

And for the rest of you…I think you know where I stand…
Nukem’

jerrytbg on May 2, 2008 at 5:50 PM

dmh0667 on May 2, 2008 at 5:47 PM

I call “Troll

alright then, you’re an elf.

Yeah, it’s far better to be in a situation where some Major City like SF or NYC is a smoking, radioactive hole in the ground, with a shadow NGO like Al-Quaeda claiming responsibility. What would be the appropriate response, in this case, according to the free and open minds at Counter-Punch? Have the FBI serve warrants to folks, asking them nicely to report on their respective court dates?

you’re twisting my meaning (albeit it’s my meaning, and i don’t expect everyone else to get it) just because i don’t support a policy of preemtive strikes dosen’t mean i can’t make room for execptions.

and if you don’t want to take my word that i’ve never heard of counter-punch before today, then i can’t do anything for you.

RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 6:04 PM

If only…

Captain Kirk (held hostage somehere in Tehran) Scotty! General Order 24 in 2 hours!!

LtCmd Scott (Scotty) speaking:
“This is the commander of the U.S.S. Enterprise. All cities and installations in Iran have been located, identified, and fed into our fire control system. In 1 hour and 45 minutes, the entire inhabited surface of your country will be destroyed. You have that long to surrender your nuclear weapons program.”

You want a war? A real war? You’ve got one.

jcmorris on May 2, 2008 at 6:04 PM

Bro, I didn’t write the article, i just copied it. i don’t know why you’re pissed off at me.

RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 4:52 PM

I’m not pissed, I thought you were supporting further negotiations and incentives with Iran, something the left thinks will work even though 29 years of futility have proven otherwise. If I came across that way I apologize.

The whole “give appeasement a chance” crowd and ideology is leading us further and further into a dangerous abyss, that’s all I’m saying.

If you’re not one that supports this path to nowhere well then you’re smarter than most as you see what’s going on, where we are headed when it comes to Iran, and what needs to be done to protect ourselves. We can protect ourselves but only if we can get those with their heads still stuck up their arses (lefty moonbats and give appeasement a chance crowds) to also see the light before it’s too late, but the clock is ticking and there isn’t much time left to continue wasting on negotiations and incentives that have yet to work in 29 years of trying.

Liberty or Death on May 2, 2008 at 6:09 PM

Want to neutralize Iran and deny them nukes? Simply BLOCKADE them (nothing in or out), destroy their oil refinery capacity, and deny access to their underground nuclear facilities. Easily done by airpower and seapower.

irongrampa on May 2, 2008 at 6:17 PM

RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 6:04 PM

sooooo, you agreed or not with the article?

jerrytbg on May 2, 2008 at 6:17 PM

RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 6:04 PM

more to the point…should we continue with this folly?

jerrytbg on May 2, 2008 at 6:20 PM

RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 6:04 PM

ummmmm….no answer….duh!!!!

jerrytbg on May 2, 2008 at 6:27 PM

Liberty or Death on May 2, 2008 at 6:09 PM

I’m not pissed, I thought you were supporting further negotiations and incentives with Iran, something the left thinks will work even though 29 years of futility have proven otherwise. If I came across that way I apologize.

no harm, no foul.

The whole “give appeasement a chance” crowd and ideology is leading us further and further into a dangerous abyss, that’s all I’m saying.

i’m not for “appeasing” anybody.

If you’re not one that supports this path to nowhere well then you’re smarter than most as you see what’s going on, where we are headed when it comes to Iran, and what needs to be done to protect ourselves. We can protect ourselves but only if we can get those with their heads still stuck up their arses (lefty moonbats and give appeasement a chance crowds) to also see the light before it’s too late, but the clock is ticking and there isn’t much time left to continue wasting on negotiations and incentives that have yet to work in 29 years of trying.

i agree that a conciseive decision must be made with Iran, but i’m just not with these Warhawks who want to nuke every country that looks at us funny, that see war as the first soultion. If Iran engages in activities that are, or have become an immanent threat to the the United States, her citizens, or the constitution, then i am oathfully, and morally oblighed to take action. other than that, i cannot in good conscience, agree with large scale military action against a soverign nation.

RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 6:33 PM

jerrytbg on May 2, 2008 at 6:17 PM

sorry, i was replying to someone else.

sooooo, you agreed or not with the article?

i thought it was an interesting article, i didn’t agree or disagree with it, just like the other two i posted from other sources.

more to the point…should we continue with this folly?

which folly? I don’t follow.

ummmmm….no answer….duh!!!!

again, sorry, i was replying to someone else.

RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 6:41 PM

dmh0667 on May 2, 2008 at 5:47 PM

I call “Troll
alright then, you’re an elf.

RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 6:04 PM

This is a bad thing? So long as it’s not an Orlando Bloom-ish type of Elf (except the Archery skills), no problem with this! As for whether or not you believe what the Party-line that Counter-Punch, etc., espouse, this is what happens with articles posted with no comment, a typical troll tactic. This would be your problem, not anyone else’s.

i thought it was an interesting article

Whatever. Like I said, don’t follow the Troll Playbook if you’re not one. Otherwise why post what you posted if you didn’t believe it unless you felt it said all that you wanted to?

dmh0667 on May 2, 2008 at 6:55 PM

in my opion, the results of our methods have not been in our favor, and i think a new strategy should be implemented.

That’s the understatement of the year! I’ll tell you why the results of our methods have not been in our favor, it’s because the fundemental aspect of two parties successfully negotiating anything requires both parties to have some commonality in their objectives.

Here’s the definition of negotiate/negotiation:

: to confer with another so as to arrive at the settlement of some matter
transitive verb

1 a: to deal with (some matter or affair that requires ability for its successful handling)

: manage b: to arrange for or bring about through conference, discussion, and compromise

Negotiation requires both parties to want to achieve a successful outcome, but when one of the parties idea (agenda) of a successful outcome is based on the utlimate elimination of the other party it is impossible to negotiate a successful outcome and it should be obvious to all what Iran’s agenda is because they don’t try to hide it! Just look at their rallies after friday prayers, they chant “death to Israel, death to America, death to the west” every Friday after their prayers!

Also, have you ever seen their military parades? On the sides of their missile launchers they have banners that proudly exclaim, “America we will crush you under our feet!”

I think their agenda speaks loud and clear and anyone that thinks negotiations would ever be successful with the Iranian Mullahs is blind, fooling themselves, stupid, or all three! They don’t want to negotiate and live in peace with us, they want us GONE therefore any negotiations (other than there uncondtional surrender) is a a waste of valuable time and the last 29 years have proved that to be true!

War however, (large scale bombings, boots on the ground) should be our very last resort. i think a lot of people today have forgotten just what war means, they think it’s something they can watch on TV, while flipping back and forth with American Idolatry. i believe a lot of people think we can “just go to war” like it’s some casual thing we do everyday.

I do not take going to war casually, never have and never will. I agree that going to war should be a last resort, but when you get to that last resort you have to act, and it’s obvious we have tried many things for 29 years with no success when it comes to Iran, again refer to the above definition of negotiate.

Also, my father served this country for 27 years, he joined the Army-Aircorp (before there was an Airforce) and he saw and did a lot of chit, so while I myself have never been to war I know through my father how horrible war can be, it is hell on earth and therefore I do not take the thought of going to war casually. Also, I have a son that is 19, so if things get worse and our government brings back the draft my son may have to go and that is not something I take “casually” either.

In addition, I’ve never watched American Idol, I prefer to watch science shows, something that won’t turn my brain to mush!

Bottom lines is when all is said and done I would rather my government take pre-emptive measures and be wrong about Iran’s intentions then wait for the mushroom cloud and realize only then they were right about Iran’s intentions.

It’s called Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, survival needs come first! Also, if Iran chose to they could end this escalation but doing so doesn’t fit in with their fanatical religious ideology and agenda, which is to eliminate the “little Satan” (Israel) and the big Satan (America) and that’s why negotiations with them have failed miserably for the last 29 years, just like with the Arabs in Palestine, their goal isn’t peaceful coexistence with Israel, they want Israel eliminated, just ask Hamas, it’s in their charter!

Freedom and safety aren’t free, sometimes you have to fight when you’re a free country, this is one of those times and the time has past for negotiations and we better get a move on before it’s too late!

Liberty or Death on May 2, 2008 at 6:56 PM

RMC strikes me as one of those trolls who don’t realize they’re trolls.

Al in St. Lou on May 2, 2008 at 6:58 PM

dmh0667 on May 2, 2008 at 6:55 PM

&

Al in St. Lou on May 2, 2008 at 6:58 PM

ok guys, i apologize for not being up on my condescending-blog-insult slang. i don’t know what it means to be a “troll” or what is in their play book. i don’t resort to calling people names, and i don’t care to learn the terminology.

but since i can’t stop you guys from doing so, go nuts.

RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 7:17 PM

i agree that a conciseive decision must be made with Iran, but i’m just not with these Warhawks who want to nuke every country that looks at us funny, that see war as the first soultion.

RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 6:33 PM

Again, when should we make a decisive decision, after we’re nuked? If so I again request you petition the Mad Mullahs to point the nuke at your city, not mine.

If Iran engages in activities that are, or have become an immanent threat to the the United States, her citizens, or the constitution, then i am oathfully, and morally oblighed to take action
RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 6:33 PM

Ok, please see my previous post. Iran has never hidden how it feels about the US, Israel, and the West and what its agenda is, and that agenda is to eliminate the little and big Satans to bring back the Imam and establish an Islamic caliphate throughout the world.

Does chanting “death to America” after prayers EVERY FRIDAY not mean anything? Does hanging banners on their missile launchers that read, “America we will crush you under our feet” not mean anything or say anthing about their intentions?

This is just what they say, what about taking Americans hostage in 1979, they attacked our embassy which in of itself is an act of war because an embassy is considered soveriegn. What about their years and years of supporting and funding worldwide terrorism? What about their involvment in the bombing of the Marine’s in Lebanon, that’s another act of war! If they aren’t developing nukes, then why are they not being forthcoming and allowing the international community to inspect all of their facilities?

It’s one thing to be prudent and consider all angles, negotiate, etc prior to going to war, but again at some point you have to make a decision and I trulybelieve our government has gove above and beyond what would be considered prudent and thoughtful considerations when it comes to dealing with Iran and its Mad Mullahs, but to continue down the same fruitless path when it’s obvious Iran has nointetnion of negotiating anything is absolutely foolish and as I said previously, I’d rather my government take pre-emptive actions and be wrong about Iran’s intentions than see a mushroom cloud over one of our cities and realize they were right about Iran’s intentions!

I don’t see war as the first solution and I’m not a hawk or a “war-monger.” The left loves to call us conservatives “warhawks” or “war mongers” as it’s their way of insulting us, but the only thing that is insulting about it is that it emplies we “like” or “love” war when I’d be willing to bet all my worldy posessions that there is no one (in their right mind) on this site that either likes or loves war.

War is hell, there is no doubt about it and it should be carefully considered before ever going to war, but at some point you must make a decision. As I stated in a previous post I don’t look at going to war as a casual stroll in the park, but I’m also smart enough to know when it’s time to defend myself unlike the many fools on the left that won’t know it until they see a mushroom cloud, but even then the left will just blame it on the right and complain and cry about why something wasn’t done sooner to stop it, ala 9-11!

Liberty or Death on May 2, 2008 at 7:29 PM

Liberty or Death on May 2, 2008 at 6:56 PM

i understand what negotiation and diplomacy are, they are compromise, they are concessions. i also understnad that if the party of the first part has goals that are in direct conflict with those of the party of the second part, then more serious conflict may arise. if if negotiations fail, and they’re looking for a fight, then one must still try to deter them, if those efforts fail, find new ways to deter them, if those efforts fail as well, then one is left with little option then to defend one-self, at which point, one has to size-up the situation, “what are the odds in my favor?”, (what are the opponents percieved strengths?, what are ours?)

I don’t believe for one second that Iran seriously thinks it can defeat the US, they know that any launch of their missles would be the signiture of their destruction, the might of the United States military (often mistaken for the wrath of God) would crush them, if not wipe them from the face of the Earth. i don’t believe they are that stupid or insane.

but one eventually comes to the final question of conflict, wheather or not to pull the trigger. is he bluffing?, or will one’s failure to act result in horror? i am undecided, i don’t want us to war with, and occupie yet another nation, but i must prevent conflict form reaching our shores.

i won’t be drafted anytime soon, i enlisted before i turned 18 so i didn’t have to sign one. i’ve also been to Baghdad, i have had to make the decision, round chambered, safety off, is this guy gonna kill me? it cannot be armchaired. I don’t want to use that as some “moral authority”, it is only my experience. And based on our short correspondence, i don’t consider you a Warhawk or ignorant of the grave consequences of War.

I’ve never watched American Idol, I prefer to watch science shows, something that won’t turn my brain to mush!

History and Discovery channels all the way!

RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 7:56 PM

Freedom isn’t free. There’s a hefty feckin’ fee.

If you don’t pay your buck-oh-five, who will?

————————–

RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 3:54 PM

What’s interesting about those articles?

One says Bush is a war-monger, which we knew, and has a secret plan to attack Iran, which we knew, even though there’s absolutely no reason in the world to attack Iran, which we know; and ignored advice from Fallon, which we knew, and then ran him out of the Administration for dissenting from the party line, which we knew.

The other says France has no stomach for war, which we’ve known at least since WW2.

Fascinating.

misterpeasea on May 2, 2008 at 8:01 PM

Liberty or Death on May 2, 2008 at 7:29 PM

I again request you petition the Mad Mullahs to point the nuke at your city, not mine.

i’m not gonna petition anybody.

If they aren’t developing nukes, then why are they not being forthcoming and allowing the international community to inspect all of their facilities?

they’re saying the same thing i would say to the Useless Nations: “Go suck an egg!”

taking Americans hostage in 1979, they attacked our embassy – years and years of supporting and funding worldwide terrorism – involvment in the bombing of the Marine’s in Lebanon

i’d agree to some tactical air strikes, a symbolic “cut that sh!t out”

why something wasn’t done sooner to stop it, ala 9-11!

i don’t know if invading Iraq and Afganistan post 9/11 would have stopped the attacks, and neither does anyone else. or that the lack of another successfull attack is a direct result of the invasions. it’s like saying “i have a rock in my backyard the keeps terrorists away, i put it there after 9/11, and we haven’t been successfully attacked”

i’m stuck in between two sides: one dosen’t want to fight for anything, and the other wants to fight over everything.

who will be the next tin-hat dictator to puff his chest and rattle his saber? who will be the next terrorist funding nation? where will it end? how many countries will we invade in this endless war on terror? with no clear enemy or victory? i’m not saying we shoulden’t kick Iran’s ass, i just don’t want another soft job like Iraq and Afganistan. if we do indeed attack Iran, we need to use them as an example, forget “hearts and minds” make it a display: “this is what happens when you threaten the US”

we shoulden’t have to invade half the world to protect America, there should be one example.

RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 8:41 PM

misterpeasea on May 2, 2008 at 8:01 PM

i thought they were interesting because i hadn’t heard those stories anywhere else, and i knew no one on this blog would have talked about it, there’s too much Obama going on!. Particularly the Admiral Fallon story, all i heard from the media was “Irans pushing it’s luck again” i don’t turn to alternative sources because i agree or disagree with their point of view, i find that different places will report stories that other won’t. even with the big boys, Fox will report stories that CNN and pMSNBC won’t.

RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 8:51 PM

why do i always end-up defending myself from three or four different sides on this blog? 80% of the articles posted on H.A. i don’t care about, and the other 20%, i end-up in some drawn-out “last man standing match” with 3 people!

oy!

RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 8:58 PM

alright guys, it was fun playing along, you guys have really cool toys, but i have an early morning and i need to hit the sack.

have a blessed night.

RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 9:01 PM

at this late date i don’t think we (the people) have much of a say in what happens with regards to iran. the US as democracy may not be ready or want war but the US as global hegemon is guided by hard power geopolitics.

i have a feeling that things will be coming to a head soon because the stars are beginning to align for war.

There are things going on right now that we as laymen without access to the big picture are not aware of so its easy to misread something overt.

however, having said that

anyone thinking this situation will not lead to war is not looking at the strategic picture in the right way. look to the various competing interests and the history of the players in order to get a feel for what is going to happen.

war was a foregone conclusion when the competing interests at work here became irreconcilable, when that happens the only option is war. we hit that level when it became apparent that negotiations were not going to disarm the iranians.

by looking at iran’s pre nuke strategic posture you can see that an effort to contain them is not going to work. no matter how tight containment can be crafted it won’t work – they have oil and they sit astride the main lines of communication of the planets energy reserves. once they acquire nukes it alters the equation even more in their favor- containment will be even more impossible. looking at this from their point of view they absolutely must have those nukes. even security guarantees by the US making us guarantors of the iranian regime will not ameliorate all of their concerns the way nukes can.

on the other side the international system cannot tolerate a nuclear iran. although most have not yet realized it the legitimacy of the postwar international system is at stake here.

the arabs won’t accept iran as hegemon, which includes allowing the continued viability of this so called shia arc under iranian dominance. from the ruling alawites in syria to the shia minorities on the arabian peninsula and in the gulf the sunnis will never allow this danger within to fester. if the persians get nukes the arabs have to accept them as hegemons until they develop their own nukes.

the israelis won’t accept an existential threat either(look at how they’ve responded twice to arguably lesser threats Osirak and al-Kibar)

i think the most shocking aspect of this is that we the US cannot allow iran to go nuclear and remain a truly global hegemon. iraq will have meant nothing with a nuclear iran next door. same thing for afghanistan. we cannot allow our national security policies to be dictated by our enemies (the russians, the chinese, the global left,) nor by the feckless (the euros the UN).

war is inevitable. now all that is left is the planning and preparation for war. these actions below are not happening in a vacuum they are all linked…

syria is preparing for war. while the arabs are trying to “flip the syrians”

israel is preparing for war

the arabs and the US are pressuring for a deal with the palestinains and the syrians in order to get that issue off the table

hezbollah is preparing for war

hamas is preparing for war

the gulf is preparing for war

the saudis have begun rearming and reorganizing their military

the iraqis have begun culling their pro iranian shites

the shooting has not started yet because no one is ready for war. the iranians have pushed only as far as they think they could get away with. they need to keep out of war until they have enough fissile material for a few nukes. one nuke won’t be enough. but it is interesting to note how the iranians have fought the israelis, the arabs, and the US using proxies while at the same time preventing war until they are ready. what happens when they get the ultimate force multiplier.

its interesting to see how when pakistan needed to counterveil indian nuclear hegemony by acquiring its own nuke it did so very quietly. don’t ruffle any feathers. pakistani nuke = defensive nuke. same thing happened with south africa and israel nukes for defense guarantors of the nation state.

iran wants nukes for defense yes but also for ???

war is inevitable its not up to us. get used to it, prepare for the worst and hope for the best. all the hand wringing is useless; either war erupts now before they get nukes (hopefully) or containment will ultimately fail and war erupts after they have nukes.

pick one.

elduende on May 2, 2008 at 11:04 PM

i just don’t want another soft job like Iraq and Afganistan. if we do indeed attack Iran, we need to use them as an example, forget “hearts and minds” make it a display: “this is what happens when you threaten the US”

RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 8:41 PM

Something we agree on, it has always been my pet peeve, when it is decided to go to war you do it all the way or you don’t go to war. There is no “soft-balling” it as you put it, you either go in to win decisively or you stay out because there is too much at stake, especially for the people having to fight the war.

War is not PC and it’s not a popularity contest, but unfortunately it seems many in charge of our government think we have to be PC and are too worried about how we look to the rest of the world and the military is left vulnerable and takes more casulties then it should.

So I agree, if we go after Iran it shouldn’t be for “hearts and minds” but rather it should be swift, devistating, and leave an unforgetable impression on the Mad Mullahs.

As for Iran lobbing some missiles at us, I don’t think that is the way they would deliver it, it would more than likely be a ‘suitcase nuke’ from an AQ type group they support and fund. Also, the MAD doctrine we used with Russia won’t work with the Mad Mullahs, they want to start Armeggedon to bring forth the last Imam and solidify their Caliphate.

I personally agree with irongrampa’s idea:

Want to neutralize Iran and deny them nukes? Simply BLOCKADE them (nothing in or out), destroy their oil refinery capacity, and deny access to their underground nuclear facilities. Easily done by airpower and seapower.

irongrampa on May 2, 2008 at 6:17 PM

That would be a start, cripple them as best you can then finish them off.

Also, as for those calling you a troll, try not to take it too personally, discussions get heated here. I personally respect your views and appreciate your input even if I don’t agree with your views. In addition I want to thank you for your service to our nation, we all owe you a debt of gratitude. Please be safe and may God bless and watch over you.

Liberty or Death on May 2, 2008 at 11:58 PM

A good movie:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countdown_to_Looking_Glass
It’s from so long ago, the Soviets are the ‘bad guys’ siding with Iran…but it was chilling to watch. Imagine Anderson Cooper or Geraldo Rivera broadcasting live from the deck of an aircraft carrier in the Strait of Hormuz…with a mushroom cloud destroying the horizon.

Doug on May 3, 2008 at 1:06 AM

The biggest player on the field, China, has to have ME oil.
So why all the interference? Do they really believe that MAD will contain the mullahs? Seems to me that a nuclear armed Iran makes radioactive oil fields more likely (either by us or by the Iranians). So what is their deal? Why are they giving Tehran the space and time to endanger what China needs most?

Limerick on May 3, 2008 at 9:42 AM

It’s times like this that I wish I’d stayed around long enough to debate you RMC,but I couldn’t. The truth is I believe the Islamo’s want fissionable material for EM weapons…. they don’t want to blow us up they want to send us back into the 1860′s tech wise. If you ck back,post again.

jerrytbg on May 3, 2008 at 6:26 PM