Definition of insanity, revisited
posted at 1:50 pm on May 2, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
The definition of insanity, as the aphorism instructs, is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. That accurately describes the world’s policy towards Iranian nuclear proliferation, and we’re about to get another demonstration of it. The BBC reports that major world powers will offer Tehran another set of incentives to stop enriching uranium:
Major world powers are to offer Iran updated incentives to stop enriching uranium and end fears it is seeking a nuclear arsenal.
The agreement on a new package was announced by UK Foreign Secretary David Miliband after talks between foreign ministers in London. He said no details would be made public before the offer was made to Tehran.
Iran, which says it is seeking civilian nuclear energy, is under UN sanctions for continuing to enrich uranium.
Friday’s deal was agreed by the five permanent members of the UN Security Council – the US, Russia, China, the UK and France – plus Germany. All were represented by their foreign ministers except for China, which sent a deputy minister.
In case no one noticed, this is the same set of major world powers that tried buying off Iran multiple times over the last six years, to no effect. It includes all of the EU-3, all three of which have changed heads of state since the last offer, plus the US, which explicitly participated in the last two incentive package offers.
Russia and China have joined the other four nations in the incentives, but both nations trade with Iran already, despite pressure to embargo Tehran over their nuclear intransigence. Their participation in this offer might be marginally interesting in that it implies that both will join with the rest of the UNSC if Tehran rejects it. Given the long history of both nations in supporting Iran, that seems very unlikely. They probably see this as a way to mollify the West for a few more months, just as with earlier efforts.
At this point, the Iranians have no reason to agree to a package. They have seen the incentives grow with each rejection. Why not wait to see what another rejection might bring them? Appeasement can be lucrative for the irrational, and it makes the appeasers look like the insane.









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This is part of the run-up to missile strikes. It isn’t meant to accomplish anything except to serve as cover against charges of rushing to war. It’s 2002 again.
Akzed on May 2, 2008 at 1:55 PM
Everyone knows all we have to do is elect Obama, and he will smooth-talk Dinnerjacket out of his nuclear ambitions. I mean, jeeze, it’s like you are interested in facts and history. Don’t you know that if you hope hard enough that change will come and we will be viewed as the Great Teddy Bear instead of the Great Satan?
VolMagic on May 2, 2008 at 1:55 PM
Akzed on May 2, 2008 at 1:55 PM
I’s hopin’ your jokin’
VolMagic on May 2, 2008 at 1:56 PM
Tonkin! Tonkin! Tonkin!…all together now!
Limerick on May 2, 2008 at 2:03 PM
This sure worked with N Korea didn’t it? We cave, they say they will let inspectors in, they don’t, they get their money to feed their people, they don’t, they send arms to Iran, etc. That little iranian worm has no intentions of doing anything but continue his bomb making, killing Jews American’s, and anyone who isn’t a muslim. Gads we B stupid!
L
letget on May 2, 2008 at 2:05 PM
Me too.
Ed Morrissey on May 2, 2008 at 2:06 PM
They are just exhausting and re-exhausting all their option so when Iran is a big sheet of green glass,(Iranian ocean) the big powers can say, “well, we tried everything time and time again!”.
And does anyone else hear the Looney Tunes soundrack when they see a picture of Ahmadinijad? Maybe it’s just me.
Geronimo on May 2, 2008 at 2:10 PM
This is part of the run-up to missile strikes. It isn’t meant to accomplish anything except to serve as cover against charges of rushing to war. It’s 2002 again.
Akzed on May 2, 2008 at 1:55 PM
——-
There are a couple differences.
Ahmadinnerjackets’ WMDs are going to be easier to find.
Our troops are forward-deployed and have good local intel.
The Iranian people have an example right next door, on two fronts, of what an American occupation and a Muslim democracy looks like, one they’re busy killing our troops in by the way – can you say Casus Belli? – and the other being Afghanistan.
The first problem is it’s an election year, and while Booosh isn’t running any more than Bill Clinton is, he and bubba are the clearest ghosts in the machine.
The second problem is the only thing that’s letting the mullahs hold onto power is their anti-US anti-West propaganda. Any attack that doesn’t finish the job will leave them in a *better* position, not a worse one.
Mew
acat on May 2, 2008 at 2:12 PM
I am expecting a much better result this time!
Grafted on May 2, 2008 at 2:13 PM
Iran and Nazi Germany offer a number of parallels. It isn’t just crazy that people keep giving them things to be nice, it’s crazy that the world has not learned what happens when you allow fascists to arm under the guise of offering technology to the folk, when it’s all military production.
Germany made sewing machines that would be machine guns and commercial aircraft that were pre-fitted for bomb bays, and Iran isn’t even bothering to hide anything. Todays world is as crazy or more so than the world of the Thirties…..and we’re talking nukes this time.
Hitler used to laugh and make fun of the big brains of diplomacy after they left his company with optomism, and I’m sure these apes are having the same chuckles in Tehran.
Hening on May 2, 2008 at 2:19 PM
Stop screaming in the grocery store, honey, and mummy will buy you a candy bar.
Stop screaming in the grocery store, honey, and mummy will buy you a candy bar AND ice cream.
Stop screaming in the grocery store, honey, and mummy will buy you a candy bar and ice cream AND a puppy.
That always works.
Tanya on May 2, 2008 at 2:20 PM
I think we’ll do everything humanly possible to avoid war with Iran. They WANT war so it will eventually be unavoidable. This war will be different than the one with Iraq. We’re not going to occupy anything we’re just going to blow stuff up. We don’t have to glass the place we just need to take the fun out of mass murder.
Mojave Mark on May 2, 2008 at 2:21 PM
Iran just bought 6 more months for nuclear development. Awesome.
kcluva on May 2, 2008 at 2:24 PM
Gotta nuke sumthin’
LimeyGeek on May 2, 2008 at 2:26 PM
Actually, repeating the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is a common sales technique: the salesman keeps asking you to buy his crap over and over, and every time he gets a different excuse why you can’t buy the crap until you run out of excuses and buy the damn thing.
Not to say that the UN or the approach are not insane… just splitting hairs ;-)
The sane thing to do would be what Bibi has been lobbying for. That won’t happen until the Iranians actually get the bomb in a few years.
AlexB on May 2, 2008 at 2:26 PM
Right after the Jan 21st you are going to see a dust cloud over some Iranian desert mountain. Then it will be ‘Ok Obama, we are ready to talk now’.
Limerick on May 2, 2008 at 2:37 PM
unless that translates to “we won’t blow you back to the
Stone Age” then I shall remain skeptical…
ps.
for them the stone age = c. 1980
ocbrat on May 2, 2008 at 2:40 PM
Explain to me how this does not imply that the general population believes or shares the same perspective?
Thats priceless!
dmann on May 2, 2008 at 2:42 PM
It’s gonna work, Ed! The International Community will fix things. After all, Gordon Brown just said it’s time the world give up the outdated idea of national sovereignty and borders and adopt a global New World Order run by the UN. And we know the unblemished record the UN has in conflict resolution. Yer just a hater.
eeyore on May 2, 2008 at 2:45 PM
Maybe they’re offering him San Francisco?
kirkill on May 2, 2008 at 2:47 PM
They can have San Francisco AND Berzerkely. Meh, give ‘em Cambridge too.
Geronimo on May 2, 2008 at 2:51 PM
Good point. The US and the rest of the world tried and tried to get Saddam to act reasonably. The UN issued resolution after resolution over years and years. There was a general consensus that Saddam had WMD, but no one had the spine to do anything about it except the US. (And/or they had sweet economic deals and/or bribes with Saddam.)
So finally, after years and years of misbehavior, and years and years of negotiation and entreaty, and months and months of warnings, we rushed to war.
I definitely see the parallels to 2002.
I say again, good point Akzed.
misterpeasea on May 2, 2008 at 2:54 PM
The stimulus package was rumored to contain child brides, burka clad Barbie’s and an autography glossy of the original cast from the Hollywood classic, Planet of the Apes.
dmann on May 2, 2008 at 2:56 PM
Men ought either to be indulged or utterly destroyed, for if you merely offend them they take vengeance, but if you injure them greatly they are unable to retaliate, so that any injury done to a man ought to be such that vengeance cannot be feared.
- Niccolo Machiavelli
MB4 on May 2, 2008 at 3:11 PM
Well, you see, this is why I get into so much trouble.
I go from “please don’t do that”, to smashed face, eye gouging, smashed larynx, and methodically breaking every rib in your rib cage while your throat swells shut and you asphyxiate, with no intermediate negotiations. Yes, I know it’s insane, but that’s just me.
Needless to say, I’m not a skilled negotiator.
Perhaps next time I should offer a choice; “Which would you prefer 50 bucks or a concussion, to stop doing that?” Would that work? Probably not.
OH, wait, I should be more receptive; “Why are you doing that?”
Ans: “To annoy you!”
“Well, it’s working! So stop it already”
Nope, I don’t see it. Where’s my [expletive] clue stick?
rockhauler on May 2, 2008 at 3:23 PM
Yep, you nailed it!
Liberty or Death on May 2, 2008 at 3:33 PM
Oh bloody hell- why not just give them a few nukes in exchange for shutting down their nuke program. That’s the only incentive that they’d be interested in.
Previous deals were very generous, and Iran rejected them- for the obvious reason. What kind of imbecile thinks that they’d accept a deal for nuclear power when their only goal is obtaining nuclear weapons?
Hollowpoint on May 2, 2008 at 3:35 PM
RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 3:37 PM
The little feller keep this up, the IAF or Mossad will come a callin’. I think we’ve seen what they leave as a calling card, haven’t we?
mjk on May 2, 2008 at 3:48 PM
RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 3:51 PM
We all know Iran wants to be the victim. It is the only way to keep the Arab world from jumping in. That is until they get the bomb, then all bets are off.
I just wonder how much longer the mullahs can hold back some nut job from running a god&country attack on a cruiser or even just a cargo vessel. Allah Ahkbar and all that nonsense.
Limerick on May 2, 2008 at 3:52 PM
RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 3:54 PM
Well,Iran says over and over that they would like a world
that would be void of Israel”Little Satan” and the United
States of America”Big Satan” and they even have a holiday,
I think it’s called Happy Vapourization day,that some day
that Israel and America would simply dissappear!
Then with these two country’s gone,for Iran it would be
clear sailing for their glorious caliphate to begin,any
challange to Iran would be met with their peaceful nuclear
program of excellerated atom smashing in your back yard!
In Iran’s past,in their history,they almost had the world
2-3 times,now for the first time,Iran will have Atomic
Weapons,21st.Century Weapons in the hands of 3rd.Century
Nazi-style,MAD doesn’t work,if we take 3/4 of the Muslim
world with us to free their religious nut out of the well,
then so be it praise you know who,yada,yada,yada!
And if they get a nuclear weapon system on parr of say Russia,your gonna feel real secure knowing that one
day,some Jihady might act alone and launch,you know the
72 virgins,and praise you know who!
The only deterrent that will work for Iran,Syria,Baaka
Valley,is a large smokin gaping hole,make no mistake,Iran
will push the button long before Israel or the United States
will!
canopfor on May 2, 2008 at 4:10 PM
RMC1618
thanks for the link. But you have to help me out. Since I’m conservative I can’t really understand most things until I have them properly labeled.
So how would you characterize CounterPunch?
rockhauler on May 2, 2008 at 4:11 PM
don’t know, never heard of them before today.
RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 4:22 PM
The US and many other governments have been doing the above for many years, since the 1979 Iranian revolution and where has it gotten us? I’ll tell you where its gotten us, its gotten us a more belligerent Iran, a more hostile Iran, a more powerful Iran, an Iran that thinks we are weak (because all we do is negotiate and bribe them with incentives) and an Iran that is on the verge of getting the most destructive WMD known to man…a nuclear weapon!
All these years (29 years to be exact) of appeasement and negotiation have placed the US and the West in a much more precarious and dangerous situation, yet what as Iran done for the US and the West…nothing except to threaten the US and West with annihilation while fully supporting and funding terrorism around the world!
With this in mind, are you (RMC1618) really advocating we continue on the path of negotiation and appeasement, a path that has accomplished NOTHING except make us look weak and placed us in a more precarious and dangerous situation?
So RMC1618, should we wait until we see a mushroom cloud over one of our cities before doing something since it is obvious the tact we have taken over the last 29 years has done more harm than good? If you think we should continue to wait and continue to appease and negotiate would you mind petitioning the Mad Mullahs in Iran to aim that nuke over your city and not mine!
Liberty or Death on May 2, 2008 at 4:39 PM
Replace Vietnam with Iran and that about explains how I feel about it.
Dawnsblood on May 2, 2008 at 4:48 PM
Liberty or Death on May 2, 2008 at 4:39 PM
Bro, I didn’t write the article, i just copied it. i don’t know why you’re pissed off at me.
RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 4:52 PM
Reminds me of that old joke: A priest goes to the zoo. He notices a big crowd at the monkey cage. When he gets there, one of the monkeys is masturbating. The priest asks the zookeeper if he gave the monkey a cracker would he stop. The zookeeper says “Would you?”
Kafir on May 2, 2008 at 5:05 PM
Liberty or Death on May 2, 2008 at 4:39 PM
But, since you asked so nicely…
in my opion, the results of our methods have not been in our favor, and i think a new strategy should be implemented. War however, (large scale bombings, boots on the ground) should be our very last resort. i think a lot of people today have forgotten just what war means, they think it’s something they can watch on TV, while flipping back and forth with American Idolatry. i believe a lot of people think we can “just go to war” like it’s some casual thing we do everyday.
if you support a foreign policy of preventive attacks, that’s you. i personally dont.
RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 5:08 PM
I call “Troll”, anyone else? A beingn, “Dude, I’m just postin’ stuff, see?” troll, but nevertheless…
Yeah, it’s far better to be in a situation where some Major City like SF or NYC is a smoking, radioactive hole in the ground, with a shadow NGO like Al-Quaeda claiming responsibility. What would be the appropriate response, in this case, according to the free and open minds at Counter-Punch? Have the FBI serve warrants to folks, asking them nicely to report on their respective court dates?
dmh0667 on May 2, 2008 at 5:47 PM
posted at 1:50 pm on May 2, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
Thanks Ed!
VolMagic on May 2, 2008 at 1:56 PM
don’t worry.
Ed Morrissey on May 2, 2008 at 2:06 PM
again….. don’t worry!
And for the rest of you…I think you know where I stand…
Nukem’
jerrytbg on May 2, 2008 at 5:50 PM
dmh0667 on May 2, 2008 at 5:47 PM
alright then, you’re an elf.
you’re twisting my meaning (albeit it’s my meaning, and i don’t expect everyone else to get it) just because i don’t support a policy of preemtive strikes dosen’t mean i can’t make room for execptions.
and if you don’t want to take my word that i’ve never heard of counter-punch before today, then i can’t do anything for you.
RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 6:04 PM
If only…
Captain Kirk (held hostage somehere in Tehran) Scotty! General Order 24 in 2 hours!!
LtCmd Scott (Scotty) speaking:
“This is the commander of the U.S.S. Enterprise. All cities and installations in Iran have been located, identified, and fed into our fire control system. In 1 hour and 45 minutes, the entire inhabited surface of your country will be destroyed. You have that long to surrender your nuclear weapons program.”
You want a war? A real war? You’ve got one.
jcmorris on May 2, 2008 at 6:04 PM
I’m not pissed, I thought you were supporting further negotiations and incentives with Iran, something the left thinks will work even though 29 years of futility have proven otherwise. If I came across that way I apologize.
The whole “give appeasement a chance” crowd and ideology is leading us further and further into a dangerous abyss, that’s all I’m saying.
If you’re not one that supports this path to nowhere well then you’re smarter than most as you see what’s going on, where we are headed when it comes to Iran, and what needs to be done to protect ourselves. We can protect ourselves but only if we can get those with their heads still stuck up their arses (lefty moonbats and give appeasement a chance crowds) to also see the light before it’s too late, but the clock is ticking and there isn’t much time left to continue wasting on negotiations and incentives that have yet to work in 29 years of trying.
Liberty or Death on May 2, 2008 at 6:09 PM
Want to neutralize Iran and deny them nukes? Simply BLOCKADE them (nothing in or out), destroy their oil refinery capacity, and deny access to their underground nuclear facilities. Easily done by airpower and seapower.
irongrampa on May 2, 2008 at 6:17 PM
sooooo, you agreed or not with the article?
jerrytbg on May 2, 2008 at 6:17 PM
RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 6:04 PM
more to the point…should we continue with this folly?
jerrytbg on May 2, 2008 at 6:20 PM
RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 6:04 PM
ummmmm….no answer….duh!!!!
jerrytbg on May 2, 2008 at 6:27 PM
Liberty or Death on May 2, 2008 at 6:09 PM
no harm, no foul.
i’m not for “appeasing” anybody.
i agree that a conciseive decision must be made with Iran, but i’m just not with these Warhawks who want to nuke every country that looks at us funny, that see war as the first soultion. If Iran engages in activities that are, or have become an immanent threat to the the United States, her citizens, or the constitution, then i am oathfully, and morally oblighed to take action. other than that, i cannot in good conscience, agree with large scale military action against a soverign nation.
RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 6:33 PM
sorry, i was replying to someone else.
i thought it was an interesting article, i didn’t agree or disagree with it, just like the other two i posted from other sources.
which folly? I don’t follow.
again, sorry, i was replying to someone else.
RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 6:41 PM
This is a bad thing? So long as it’s not an Orlando Bloom-ish type of Elf (except the Archery skills), no problem with this! As for whether or not you believe what the Party-line that Counter-Punch, etc., espouse, this is what happens with articles posted with no comment, a typical troll tactic. This would be your problem, not anyone else’s.
Whatever. Like I said, don’t follow the Troll Playbook if you’re not one. Otherwise why post what you posted if you didn’t believe it unless you felt it said all that you wanted to?
dmh0667 on May 2, 2008 at 6:55 PM
That’s the understatement of the year! I’ll tell you why the results of our methods have not been in our favor, it’s because the fundemental aspect of two parties successfully negotiating anything requires both parties to have some commonality in their objectives.
Here’s the definition of negotiate/negotiation:
: to confer with another so as to arrive at the settlement of some matter
transitive verb
1 a: to deal with (some matter or affair that requires ability for its successful handling)
: manage b: to arrange for or bring about through conference, discussion, and compromise
Negotiation requires both parties to want to achieve a successful outcome, but when one of the parties idea (agenda) of a successful outcome is based on the utlimate elimination of the other party it is impossible to negotiate a successful outcome and it should be obvious to all what Iran’s agenda is because they don’t try to hide it! Just look at their rallies after friday prayers, they chant “death to Israel, death to America, death to the west” every Friday after their prayers!
Also, have you ever seen their military parades? On the sides of their missile launchers they have banners that proudly exclaim, “America we will crush you under our feet!”
I think their agenda speaks loud and clear and anyone that thinks negotiations would ever be successful with the Iranian Mullahs is blind, fooling themselves, stupid, or all three! They don’t want to negotiate and live in peace with us, they want us GONE therefore any negotiations (other than there uncondtional surrender) is a a waste of valuable time and the last 29 years have proved that to be true!
I do not take going to war casually, never have and never will. I agree that going to war should be a last resort, but when you get to that last resort you have to act, and it’s obvious we have tried many things for 29 years with no success when it comes to Iran, again refer to the above definition of negotiate.
Also, my father served this country for 27 years, he joined the Army-Aircorp (before there was an Airforce) and he saw and did a lot of chit, so while I myself have never been to war I know through my father how horrible war can be, it is hell on earth and therefore I do not take the thought of going to war casually. Also, I have a son that is 19, so if things get worse and our government brings back the draft my son may have to go and that is not something I take “casually” either.
In addition, I’ve never watched American Idol, I prefer to watch science shows, something that won’t turn my brain to mush!
Bottom lines is when all is said and done I would rather my government take pre-emptive measures and be wrong about Iran’s intentions then wait for the mushroom cloud and realize only then they were right about Iran’s intentions.
It’s called Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, survival needs come first! Also, if Iran chose to they could end this escalation but doing so doesn’t fit in with their fanatical religious ideology and agenda, which is to eliminate the “little Satan” (Israel) and the big Satan (America) and that’s why negotiations with them have failed miserably for the last 29 years, just like with the Arabs in Palestine, their goal isn’t peaceful coexistence with Israel, they want Israel eliminated, just ask Hamas, it’s in their charter!
Freedom and safety aren’t free, sometimes you have to fight when you’re a free country, this is one of those times and the time has past for negotiations and we better get a move on before it’s too late!
Liberty or Death on May 2, 2008 at 6:56 PM
RMC strikes me as one of those trolls who don’t realize they’re trolls.
Al in St. Lou on May 2, 2008 at 6:58 PM
&
ok guys, i apologize for not being up on my condescending-blog-insult slang. i don’t know what it means to be a “troll” or what is in their play book. i don’t resort to calling people names, and i don’t care to learn the terminology.
but since i can’t stop you guys from doing so, go nuts.
RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 7:17 PM
Again, when should we make a decisive decision, after we’re nuked? If so I again request you petition the Mad Mullahs to point the nuke at your city, not mine.
Ok, please see my previous post. Iran has never hidden how it feels about the US, Israel, and the West and what its agenda is, and that agenda is to eliminate the little and big Satans to bring back the Imam and establish an Islamic caliphate throughout the world.
Does chanting “death to America” after prayers EVERY FRIDAY not mean anything? Does hanging banners on their missile launchers that read, “America we will crush you under our feet” not mean anything or say anthing about their intentions?
This is just what they say, what about taking Americans hostage in 1979, they attacked our embassy which in of itself is an act of war because an embassy is considered soveriegn. What about their years and years of supporting and funding worldwide terrorism? What about their involvment in the bombing of the Marine’s in Lebanon, that’s another act of war! If they aren’t developing nukes, then why are they not being forthcoming and allowing the international community to inspect all of their facilities?
It’s one thing to be prudent and consider all angles, negotiate, etc prior to going to war, but again at some point you have to make a decision and I trulybelieve our government has gove above and beyond what would be considered prudent and thoughtful considerations when it comes to dealing with Iran and its Mad Mullahs, but to continue down the same fruitless path when it’s obvious Iran has nointetnion of negotiating anything is absolutely foolish and as I said previously, I’d rather my government take pre-emptive actions and be wrong about Iran’s intentions than see a mushroom cloud over one of our cities and realize they were right about Iran’s intentions!
I don’t see war as the first solution and I’m not a hawk or a “war-monger.” The left loves to call us conservatives “warhawks” or “war mongers” as it’s their way of insulting us, but the only thing that is insulting about it is that it emplies we “like” or “love” war when I’d be willing to bet all my worldy posessions that there is no one (in their right mind) on this site that either likes or loves war.
War is hell, there is no doubt about it and it should be carefully considered before ever going to war, but at some point you must make a decision. As I stated in a previous post I don’t look at going to war as a casual stroll in the park, but I’m also smart enough to know when it’s time to defend myself unlike the many fools on the left that won’t know it until they see a mushroom cloud, but even then the left will just blame it on the right and complain and cry about why something wasn’t done sooner to stop it, ala 9-11!
Liberty or Death on May 2, 2008 at 7:29 PM
Liberty or Death on May 2, 2008 at 6:56 PM
i understand what negotiation and diplomacy are, they are compromise, they are concessions. i also understnad that if the party of the first part has goals that are in direct conflict with those of the party of the second part, then more serious conflict may arise. if if negotiations fail, and they’re looking for a fight, then one must still try to deter them, if those efforts fail, find new ways to deter them, if those efforts fail as well, then one is left with little option then to defend one-self, at which point, one has to size-up the situation, “what are the odds in my favor?”, (what are the opponents percieved strengths?, what are ours?)
I don’t believe for one second that Iran seriously thinks it can defeat the US, they know that any launch of their missles would be the signiture of their destruction, the might of the United States military (often mistaken for the wrath of God) would crush them, if not wipe them from the face of the Earth. i don’t believe they are that stupid or insane.
but one eventually comes to the final question of conflict, wheather or not to pull the trigger. is he bluffing?, or will one’s failure to act result in horror? i am undecided, i don’t want us to war with, and occupie yet another nation, but i must prevent conflict form reaching our shores.
i won’t be drafted anytime soon, i enlisted before i turned 18 so i didn’t have to sign one. i’ve also been to Baghdad, i have had to make the decision, round chambered, safety off, is this guy gonna kill me? it cannot be armchaired. I don’t want to use that as some “moral authority”, it is only my experience. And based on our short correspondence, i don’t consider you a Warhawk or ignorant of the grave consequences of War.
History and Discovery channels all the way!
RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 7:56 PM
Freedom isn’t free. There’s a hefty feckin’ fee.
If you don’t pay your buck-oh-five, who will?
————————–
What’s interesting about those articles?
One says Bush is a war-monger, which we knew, and has a secret plan to attack Iran, which we knew, even though there’s absolutely no reason in the world to attack Iran, which we know; and ignored advice from Fallon, which we knew, and then ran him out of the Administration for dissenting from the party line, which we knew.
The other says France has no stomach for war, which we’ve known at least since WW2.
Fascinating.
misterpeasea on May 2, 2008 at 8:01 PM
i’m not gonna petition anybody.
they’re saying the same thing i would say to the Useless Nations: “Go suck an egg!”
i’d agree to some tactical air strikes, a symbolic “cut that sh!t out”
i don’t know if invading Iraq and Afganistan post 9/11 would have stopped the attacks, and neither does anyone else. or that the lack of another successfull attack is a direct result of the invasions. it’s like saying “i have a rock in my backyard the keeps terrorists away, i put it there after 9/11, and we haven’t been successfully attacked”
i’m stuck in between two sides: one dosen’t want to fight for anything, and the other wants to fight over everything.
who will be the next tin-hat dictator to puff his chest and rattle his saber? who will be the next terrorist funding nation? where will it end? how many countries will we invade in this endless war on terror? with no clear enemy or victory? i’m not saying we shoulden’t kick Iran’s ass, i just don’t want another soft job like Iraq and Afganistan. if we do indeed attack Iran, we need to use them as an example, forget “hearts and minds” make it a display: “this is what happens when you threaten the US”
we shoulden’t have to invade half the world to protect America, there should be one example.
RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 8:41 PM
misterpeasea on May 2, 2008 at 8:01 PM
i thought they were interesting because i hadn’t heard those stories anywhere else, and i knew no one on this blog would have talked about it, there’s too much Obama going on!. Particularly the Admiral Fallon story, all i heard from the media was “Irans pushing it’s luck again” i don’t turn to alternative sources because i agree or disagree with their point of view, i find that different places will report stories that other won’t. even with the big boys, Fox will report stories that CNN and pMSNBC won’t.
RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 8:51 PM
why do i always end-up defending myself from three or four different sides on this blog? 80% of the articles posted on H.A. i don’t care about, and the other 20%, i end-up in some drawn-out “last man standing match” with 3 people!
oy!
RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 8:58 PM
alright guys, it was fun playing along, you guys have really cool toys, but i have an early morning and i need to hit the sack.
have a blessed night.
RMC1618 on May 2, 2008 at 9:01 PM
at this late date i don’t think we (the people) have much of a say in what happens with regards to iran. the US as democracy may not be ready or want war but the US as global hegemon is guided by hard power geopolitics.
i have a feeling that things will be coming to a head soon because the stars are beginning to align for war.
There are things going on right now that we as laymen without access to the big picture are not aware of so its easy to misread something overt.
however, having said that
anyone thinking this situation will not lead to war is not looking at the strategic picture in the right way. look to the various competing interests and the history of the players in order to get a feel for what is going to happen.
war was a foregone conclusion when the competing interests at work here became irreconcilable, when that happens the only option is war. we hit that level when it became apparent that negotiations were not going to disarm the iranians.
by looking at iran’s pre nuke strategic posture you can see that an effort to contain them is not going to work. no matter how tight containment can be crafted it won’t work – they have oil and they sit astride the main lines of communication of the planets energy reserves. once they acquire nukes it alters the equation even more in their favor- containment will be even more impossible. looking at this from their point of view they absolutely must have those nukes. even security guarantees by the US making us guarantors of the iranian regime will not ameliorate all of their concerns the way nukes can.
on the other side the international system cannot tolerate a nuclear iran. although most have not yet realized it the legitimacy of the postwar international system is at stake here.
the arabs won’t accept iran as hegemon, which includes allowing the continued viability of this so called shia arc under iranian dominance. from the ruling alawites in syria to the shia minorities on the arabian peninsula and in the gulf the sunnis will never allow this danger within to fester. if the persians get nukes the arabs have to accept them as hegemons until they develop their own nukes.
the israelis won’t accept an existential threat either(look at how they’ve responded twice to arguably lesser threats Osirak and al-Kibar)
i think the most shocking aspect of this is that we the US cannot allow iran to go nuclear and remain a truly global hegemon. iraq will have meant nothing with a nuclear iran next door. same thing for afghanistan. we cannot allow our national security policies to be dictated by our enemies (the russians, the chinese, the global left,) nor by the feckless (the euros the UN).
war is inevitable. now all that is left is the planning and preparation for war. these actions below are not happening in a vacuum they are all linked…
syria is preparing for war. while the arabs are trying to “flip the syrians”
israel is preparing for war
the arabs and the US are pressuring for a deal with the palestinains and the syrians in order to get that issue off the table
hezbollah is preparing for war
hamas is preparing for war
the gulf is preparing for war
the saudis have begun rearming and reorganizing their military
the iraqis have begun culling their pro iranian shites
the shooting has not started yet because no one is ready for war. the iranians have pushed only as far as they think they could get away with. they need to keep out of war until they have enough fissile material for a few nukes. one nuke won’t be enough. but it is interesting to note how the iranians have fought the israelis, the arabs, and the US using proxies while at the same time preventing war until they are ready. what happens when they get the ultimate force multiplier.
its interesting to see how when pakistan needed to counterveil indian nuclear hegemony by acquiring its own nuke it did so very quietly. don’t ruffle any feathers. pakistani nuke = defensive nuke. same thing happened with south africa and israel nukes for defense guarantors of the nation state.
iran wants nukes for defense yes but also for ???
war is inevitable its not up to us. get used to it, prepare for the worst and hope for the best. all the hand wringing is useless; either war erupts now before they get nukes (hopefully) or containment will ultimately fail and war erupts after they have nukes.
pick one.
elduende on May 2, 2008 at 11:04 PM
Something we agree on, it has always been my pet peeve, when it is decided to go to war you do it all the way or you don’t go to war. There is no “soft-balling” it as you put it, you either go in to win decisively or you stay out because there is too much at stake, especially for the people having to fight the war.
War is not PC and it’s not a popularity contest, but unfortunately it seems many in charge of our government think we have to be PC and are too worried about how we look to the rest of the world and the military is left vulnerable and takes more casulties then it should.
So I agree, if we go after Iran it shouldn’t be for “hearts and minds” but rather it should be swift, devistating, and leave an unforgetable impression on the Mad Mullahs.
As for Iran lobbing some missiles at us, I don’t think that is the way they would deliver it, it would more than likely be a ‘suitcase nuke’ from an AQ type group they support and fund. Also, the MAD doctrine we used with Russia won’t work with the Mad Mullahs, they want to start Armeggedon to bring forth the last Imam and solidify their Caliphate.
I personally agree with irongrampa’s idea:
That would be a start, cripple them as best you can then finish them off.
Also, as for those calling you a troll, try not to take it too personally, discussions get heated here. I personally respect your views and appreciate your input even if I don’t agree with your views. In addition I want to thank you for your service to our nation, we all owe you a debt of gratitude. Please be safe and may God bless and watch over you.
Liberty or Death on May 2, 2008 at 11:58 PM
A good movie:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countdown_to_Looking_Glass
It’s from so long ago, the Soviets are the ‘bad guys’ siding with Iran…but it was chilling to watch. Imagine Anderson Cooper or Geraldo Rivera broadcasting live from the deck of an aircraft carrier in the Strait of Hormuz…with a mushroom cloud destroying the horizon.
Doug on May 3, 2008 at 1:06 AM
The biggest player on the field, China, has to have ME oil.
So why all the interference? Do they really believe that MAD will contain the mullahs? Seems to me that a nuclear armed Iran makes radioactive oil fields more likely (either by us or by the Iranians). So what is their deal? Why are they giving Tehran the space and time to endanger what China needs most?
Limerick on May 3, 2008 at 9:42 AM
It’s times like this that I wish I’d stayed around long enough to debate you RMC,but I couldn’t. The truth is I believe the Islamo’s want fissionable material for EM weapons…. they don’t want to blow us up they want to send us back into the 1860′s tech wise. If you ck back,post again.
jerrytbg on May 3, 2008 at 6:26 PM