Ben Stein misses his own point

posted at 5:35 pm on April 30, 2008 by Ed Morrissey

John Derbyshire finds a rather disturbing comment from Ben Stein in an interview he did with TBN earlier this month, promoting his new film Expelled: The Movie. In explaining his reaction to researching the Holocaust by visiting Dachau and Hadamar, Stein railed against the distortions of Darwinian theory that led to the systematic eugenics murders and genocide of the Nazi regime. However, Stein misses the target by a mile when he says this at about the 28-minute mark:

Stein: When we just saw that man, I think it was Mr. Myers [i.e. biologist P.Z. Myers], talking about how great scientists were, I was thinking to myself the last time any of my relatives saw scientists telling them what to do they were telling them to go to the showers to get gassed … that was horrifying beyond words, and that’s where science — in my opinion, this is just an opinion — that’s where science leads you.

Crouch: That’s right.

Stein: …Love of God and compassion and empathy leads you to a very glorious place, and science leads you to killing people.

Crouch: Good word, good word.

I found a lot to recommend about Expelled, but this leaves me wondering if Ben Stein missed the point of his movie. Science does not lead to Dachau; ideology perverting science led to Dachau. The Holocaust occurred when raving anti-Semites and materialists latched onto scientific theory as a philosophy, making it into a rationalization for what they would have done regardless.

How could Stein say this without a hint of irony? The best themes in Expelled take Academia to task for the same destructive sin. Instead of pursuing all paths of scientific pursuit, the academics have imposed their philosophy and their ideology against religion as a means to keep anyone from testing the theories of random, accidental beginnings of life. In a similar manner to what’s seen in the global-warming debate, dissenting voices are excoriated as heretics and idiots, rather than letting the science speak for itself.

Instead of making the proper point that Stein makes in the movie, he now suggests that science itself is evil. That’s absurd. Scientific knowledge has for centuries gone hand in hand with the quest to come closer to God through understanding His creation, as Stein’s own movie argues. The application and expansion of science has led to huge advances in life, health, knowledge, and living standards. Can evil acts come from scientific advances, and can some scientists be evil? Of course — as with any other profession, but the acts come from overt human actions, not from the science.

The pure scientific method ignores ideology in favor of reproducible results, which leads to knowledge — not genocide. Expelled wants Academia to stop applying ideology to science, which is absolutely correct. Stein’s quote above discredits that message and makes the effort sound like an argument against science altogether, and Stein’s broad accusation against scientists is grossly unfair. It sounds like Stein is applying his own ideology instead of supporting the scientific method.


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Folks, here is just a tiny sampling of the many famous scientists who were also strong Christians and Bible believers, who rejected the theory of evolution.

Physical Astronomy – Johann Kepler (1571-1630)
Electric Generator – Michael Faraday (1791-1867)
Chemistry – Robert Boyle (1627-1691)
Law of gravity – Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
Pasteurization – Louis Pasteur (1822-1895)
Telegraph – Samuel F. B. Morse (1791-1872)
Antiseptic Surgery – Joseph Lister (1827-1912)
Electric Motor – Joseph Henry (1797-1878)
Thermodynamics – Lord Kelvin (1824-1907)
Scientific Method – Francis Bacon (1561-1626)
Hydrostatics – Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Systematic Biology – Carolus Linnaeus (1707-1778)

Ummmm… Darwin wasn’t even born until 1809, and he didn’t write Origin of the Species until 1859.

Watcher on May 3, 2008 at 6:35 PM

I thought that I liked Stein. I question him now.

Entelechy on May 3, 2008 at 6:36 PM

I feel your pain sunshine except the ADL agrees with me.

ADL Blasts Christian Supremacist TV Special & Book Blaming Darwin For Hitler

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/HolNa_52/4877_52.htm

ADL National Director Abraham H. Foxman said in a statement:”This is an outrageous and shoddy attempt by D. James Kennedy to trivialize the horrors of the Holocaust. Hitler did not need Darwin to devise his heinous plan to exterminate the Jewish people. Trivializing the Holocaust comes from either ignorance at best or, at worst, a mendacious attempt to score political points in the culture war on the backs of six million Jewish victims and others who died at the hands of the Nazis.

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 2:15 PM

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 6:39 PM

As for your c-14 nonsense

http://www.religioustolerance.org/c14datc.htm

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 6:40 PM

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 12:12 PM

Gene. No response to my abiogenesis post (the evolutionary idea that life could arise from nonliving materials)?

You still haven’t answered me. I’ll ask gain (for the 5th time). Do you believe about 4.6 billions of year ago, the earth cooled down from a hot feiry mass, and developed a hard rocky crust?

apacalyps on May 3, 2008 at 6:54 PM

And Genie, you also overlooked my post on the “supposed geologic column”, which does not actually exist anywhere on planet earth except in the textbook and the imaginations of some evolutionists. This entire “geologic collumn” was invented in the early 1800’s primarily by Charles Lyle, a Scotish Lawyer.

“Eighty to eighty-five percent of earth’s land surface does not have even 3 geological periods appearing in ‘correct’ consecutive order… it becomes an overall exercise of gargantuan special pleading and imagination for the evolutionary uniformitarian paradigm to maintain that there ever were geologic periods.”(Woodmorappe, 1981, p. 47-71)

How do you explain all over the world thousands of petrified trees have been found standing up running through many of the rock layers. Here are some examples. And here, image 1, image 2, image 3, Image 4. And here (scroll down).

Trees don’t stand up for millions of years after they die, simply waiting for rock to form around them. It should be quite obvious to anyone that the layers formed very rapidly. A flood is the only explanation for this. Obviously, the layers formed within weeks or months before the tree could rot. These layers are not different ages, by billions of years, like the books say.

apacalyps on May 3, 2008 at 7:12 PM

“I myself am convinced that the theory of evolution, especially the extent to which it’s been applied, will be one of the great jokes in the history books of the future. Posterity will marvel that so flimsy and dubious an hypothesis could be accepted with incredible credulity that it has.” – Malcolm Muggeridge, journalist and philosopher, Pascal Lectures, University of Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

apacalyps on May 3, 2008 at 7:15 PM

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 6:39 PM

Naturally the ADL agrees with you, there are few organization further to the political left than the Anti-Defamation League. So what’s your point?

Maxx on May 3, 2008 at 7:17 PM

Darwin wasn’t even born until 1809, and he didn’t write Origin of the Species until 1859.

Watcher on May 3, 2008 at 6:35 PM

If you’re going to post Darwin book, get it right. Here is the whole title of the book, “The Origin Of Species By Means Of Natural Selection Or The Preservation Of Favored Races In The Struggle For Life.”

“At some future period not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace the SAVAGE RACES throughout the world.” Charles Darwin

Got it? Good.

apacalyps on May 3, 2008 at 7:25 PM

Got it? Good.

Yeah, I got it… you can’t do simple math, so you’ve fallen back into the Darwin=Hitler routine. Great.

Watcher on May 3, 2008 at 7:35 PM

The ADL is anti the ID movement as their website plainly states below. So it’s no wonder they used their standard line to denounce the good work Ben Stein is trying to do.

Americans have the absolute right to prefer religious explanations for creation. However, because such beliefs are not scientific theories based on observation, experiment, and evidence, they provide an inappropriate and legally impermissible foundation for science instruction in the public school classroom. – Anti-Defamation League

Maxx on May 3, 2008 at 7:43 PM

Evolution: The theory of death.

“At some future period not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace the SAVAGE RACES throughout the world.” Darwin

“I have the right to remove millions of an inferior race that breeds like vermin.” Adolf Hitler, strong believer of evolution.

“I am prepared to fight and die for my cause. I, as a natural selector, will eliminate all who I see unfit, disgraces of human race and failures of natural selection. No mercy for the scum of the earth! HUMANITY IS OVERRATED! It’s time to put NATURAL SELECTION & SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST back on tracks! ” Jokela school shooter Pekka-Eric Auvinen (aka Sturmgeist89, Natural selector), on his website. Jokela High School Massacre

“YOU KNOW WHAT I LOVE!? Natural SELECTION!!! It’s the best thing that ever happened to the Earth. Getting rid of all the stupid and weak organisms.” Columbine shooter Eric Harris, on his website. Massacre At Columbine -1

apacalyps on May 3, 2008 at 7:43 PM

Use this if above link doesn’t work. BBC NEWS on Jokela High School Massacre

“I, as a natural selector, will eliminate all who I see unfit, disgraces of human race and failures of natural selection. No mercy for the scum of the earth! HUMANITY IS OVERRATED! It’s time to put NATURAL SELECTION & SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST back on tracks! ” Jokela school shooter Pekka-Eric Auvinen, on his website.

apacalyps on May 3, 2008 at 7:47 PM

If Hitler was an atheist evolutionist as claimed then he would not has used such in his speeches or on the militaries uniforms.

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 12:27 PM

If Hitler was an atheist evolutionist??? You say if?! You will stop at no level to spread your lies.

apacalyps on May 3, 2008 at 7:57 PM

apacalyps on May 3, 2008 at 6:29 PM

You are using bold-faced lies to distort the facts of what happened in WW2, and the real reason 6 million Jewish people were slaughtered by the Nazis. As the one race above all others, Hitler believed that the Aryans evolutionary superiority gave them not only the right, but the duty to subjugate all other peoples. Hitler believed humans were animals to whom the genetics laws, learned from livestock breeding, could be applied. Ronsfi, I think you owe everyone here an apology

ADL National Director Abraham H. Foxman said in a statement:”This is an outrageous and shoddy attempt by D. James Kennedy to trivialize the horrors of the Holocaust. Hitler did not need Darwin to devise his heinous plan to exterminate the Jewish people. Trivializing the Holocaust comes from either ignorance at best or, at worst, a mendacious attempt to score political points in the culture war on the backs of six million Jewish victims and others who died at the hands of the Nazis.

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 2:15 PM

We await your apology.

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 7:58 PM

EVILutionists believe “nothing can create something” (Hold nothing in your hand for a while and see what happens.)

……………………:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::I’m outta here.

apacalyps on May 3, 2008 at 8:01 PM

********************** END OF MESSAGE **********************

apacalyps on May 3, 2008 at 8:02 PM

So soon. Well who’s going to spread the love?

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 8:04 PM

Despite computers’ superior ability at calculation and information processing, their lack of emotion or randomness made them unable to resolve cognitive dissonance, which they expressed with the phrase “Does not compute.” It was usually the computer’s response to information which it had received but could not reconcile with other information it already held to be true. Further, it could also be seen as a depiction of the stagnant nature of the machine’s programming as fundamentally flawed; due to its preprogrammed nature, it would be unable to adapt itself to circumstances beyond the scope of its programming,

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 8:06 PM

I love the old Star Trek!

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 8:07 PM

I would like evolution to join the roster of other discredited religions, like the Cargo Cult of the South Pacific. Practitioners of Cargo Cult believed that manufactured products were created by ancestral spirits, and if they imitated what they had seen the white man do, they could cause airplanes to appear out of the sky, bringing valuable cargo like radios and TVs.

So they constructed “airport towers” out of bamboo and “headphones” out of coconuts and waited for the airplanes to come with the cargo. It may sound silly, but in defense of the Cargo Cult, they did not wait as long for evidence supporting their theory as the Darwinists have waited for evidence supporting theirs.

Ann Coulter – June 2006
On Evolution

Maxx on May 3, 2008 at 9:04 PM

Gotta love that “nothing creates something” argument when those pushing it ask all to accept without question that some fictitious god can do just that!

Perhaps the omniscient god, read some of this “Young Earth” nonsense, got bored willed itself out of existence or is that something it cannot do since it is forbidden by a higher authority.
/sarc

Annar on May 3, 2008 at 9:41 PM

apacalyps
(emphasis added)

And statement was altered. You forgot to mention that.

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 9:44 PM

apacalyps on May 3, 2008 at 6:54 PM
Gene. No response to my abiogenesis post (the evolutionary idea that life could arise from nonliving materials)?

Oh, I guess you didn’t read the reply I left.

You asked a question claiming that you would “answer” afterwards. Instead, you went on to ask other questions.

As I stated earlier, after you asked m the truther-like question of whether or not I am being paid to post here, not to mention your claim that I should be locked up, It old you that I was done answering your questions.

On top of that, there is the fact that ally you do is parrot the erroneous and patently false claims of Hovind.

It is impossible to debate a person who only replies with conditioned and canned answers as you do.

You still haven’t answered me.

No need to. This question has nothing to do with abiogenesis. I have already answered your abiogenesis question.

I’ll ask gain (for the 5th time). Do you believe about 4.6 billions of year ago, the earth cooled down from a hot feiry mass, and developed a hard rocky crust?

That is not related to abiogenesis but the formation of the Earth. Don’t you know the difference?

And again, I did answer your abiogenesis question. You asked me what I thought it was and I provided a definition.

Now you want me to answer more questions not related to abiogenesis and claim that I never answered you.

Considering you cannot even follow your own posted intentions, I see no need to address any more of your questions.

But feel free to post more insults. I need to feel more of your particular flavor of xian love.

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 9:53 PM

apacalyps on May 3, 2008 at 7:57 PM

If Hitler was an atheist evolutionist??? You say if?! You will stop at no level to spread your lies.

You can call the facts of history anything you like. It’s only your mind you close.

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 9:58 PM

apacalyps
EVILutionists believe “nothing can create something” (Hold nothing in your hand for a while and see what happens.)
……………………:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::I’m outta here.

Excellent. Then perhaps we will no longer have to listen to the Hovind-trained parrot.

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 10:00 PM

Maxx on May 3, 2008 at 9:04 PM
Ann Coulter – June 2006
On Evolution

I’m assuming you are being sarcastic in citing Ann Coulter. Isn’t this the same woman who stated something about killing and converting?

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 10:03 PM

Again, from Ben Stein’s own document:

How to Ruin American Enterprise

12) Elevate mysticism, tribalism, shamanism and fundamentalism–and be sure to exclude educated, hardworking men and women–to an equal status with technology in the public mind. Make sure that, in order to pay proper (and politically correct) respect to all different ethnic groups in America, you act as if science were on an equal footing with voodoo and history with ethnic fable.

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 10:05 PM

What kills me the most, is that we point billion dollar telescopes into the sky… microphones searching light years away for “intelligent life.” Should the technician walk into the lab one morning and gaze upon his screen to see the numbers “1-2-3…..1-2-3….” repeating on his screen, we would scramble to our televisions and squint longingly at the sky with our suspicions of intelligent bretheren confirmed by the simple repeating code. Any “scientist” would say…clearly, this message was sent to us by a living, thinking being. This message is much too complex to be written by an asteroid, or by a blob of random plasma on some distant planet. Break out the wine spritzers…the search is over.

And yet, when we stare at a string of DNA…the 100,000 word code in the cell of a mirco-organism…when we measure the background radiation of the universe and see an intellgent designers “machining marks” revealed in the wavelengths… liberals and Neo-Darwinists dismiss it as random, and run to [their] biology books for comfort and reassurance.

Michael Lydick – Feb. 2006
(Long Island, NY)

Maxx on May 3, 2008 at 10:10 PM

Christian Supremacists

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 10:11 PM

I’m assuming you are being sarcastic in citing Ann Coulter. Isn’t this the same woman who stated something about killing and converting?

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 10:03 PM

No sarcasm at all I assure you. Ann is my hero, I do love her so.

Maxx on May 3, 2008 at 10:15 PM

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 10:03 PM

It this the one you mean?

We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren’t punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That’s war. And this is war.

Ann Coulter – September 2001
On The War on Terror

Maxx on May 3, 2008 at 10:18 PM

Excellent. Then perhaps we will no longer have to listen to the Hovind-trained parrot.

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 10:00 PM

Or, like at the end of Chapter 1 of Voltaire’s masterpiece:

M. le baron de Thunder-ten-tronckh passa auprès du paravent, et voyant cette cause et cet effet, chassa Candide du château à grands coups de pied dans le derrière.

Annar on May 3, 2008 at 10:19 PM

Maxx on May 3, 2008 at 10:10 PM

I don’t have a problem with that. If you want to say what we learn through scientific inquiry is proof of the designers hand. Fine. That’s an aesthetic judgment and one based on faith. The Religious traditions of all the world and all the priesthoods combined have advanced human knowledge not at all. Whereas the Scientific Method for all its failings has produce a golden age for mankind inconceivable to the half starved primitive ascetics that scrawled their hallucinatory rantings on hides some 2000 years ago. To deny reality and reject the product of ,in your eyes, god given reason, is to choose to live a fantasy like some D&D fanatic. To make my point. When you have a toothache, do you to a Dentist or a Priest? There’s your faith.

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 10:37 PM

Quand un homme ne peut obtenir ce qu’il veut dans un monde, il se trouve dans un autre.

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 10:49 PM

Chapter 14

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 10:51 PM

The Religious traditions of all the world and all the priesthoods combined have advanced human knowledge not at all.

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 10:37 PM

So the Ten Commandments that taught such things as not to kill and not to covet and not to bear false witness and not steal was of no value to the world? I would have to disagree.

Whereas the Scientific Method for all its failings has produce a golden age for mankind inconceivable to the half starved primitive ascetics that scrawled their hallucinatory rantings on hides some 2000 years ago.

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 10:37 PM

Many of the worlds greatest and most renowned scientist totally believe what those “primitive ascetics” scrawled in their hallucinatory rantings some 2000 years ago.

To make my point. When you have a toothache, do you to a Dentist or a Priest? There’s your faith.

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 10:37 PM

As long as there was a Dentist available and I could get access, I’d go to the Dentist. But if I couldn’t for some reason, I’d ask the Lord to heal me, and I believe He would. He healed a very ugly scar on the back of my hand years ago when I ask him to, as a challenge to Him, to anchor my faith.

Maxx on May 3, 2008 at 11:07 PM

I hate to bring this up seeing as were getting along so famously but,….Don’t you think the Jehovah’s Witnesses who died in the Death Camps pleaded for deliverance from God? Why let them die but heal your scar? For that matter. This very day, how many died under the prayers of the faithful in Hospitals worldwide? How about children who will die in the street tonight for lack of the most basic needs? Guess he’s too busy healing minor scars for Americans…

COME THE EF ON!

ARE YOU SERIOUS?

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 11:14 PM

Wait, wait wait, let me answer for you. “We can’t know the mind of God.”

Look. Keep working on it. You might make it. You sound young. There is time.

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 11:17 PM

Maxx
No sarcasm at all I assure you. Ann is my hero, I do love her so.

Wow. So you freely admit to support a person who has claim that we should go to foreign lands, kill their leaders and convert them?

I thought that our military was in a mission to prevent that very thing from happening.

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 11:19 PM

Maxx

So the Ten Commandments that taught such things as not to kill and not to covet and not to bear false witness and not steal was of no value to the world? I would have to disagree

Considering other societies created similar laws prior to the creation of the xian religion, then the answer would be no.

Many of the worlds greatest and most renowned scientist totally believe what those “primitive ascetics” scrawled in their hallucinatory rantings some 2000 years ago.

But did they let personal belief interfere with their research?

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 11:43 PM

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 11:14 PM

This is one of the most common arguments that no God exist, or if he does, He doesn’t care about us.

Actually it is not Biblical to “defend God” so I’m a little reluctant to give my view. Usually my answer would simply be, if you got a problem with God, take it up with Him yourself. But I’ll go into it this once, but please remember I am neither qualified nor has God contacted me to be His advocate.

There is a simple answer for all you questioned. If God intervened to prevent every bad thing from happening then we would be reaping all the benefits of God while paying Him no honor and yet living in a world without harm of any kind. It’s doesn’t work that way. How would we learn of the harm that comes from disobedience if God prevented all harm no matter what?

Life is basically a classroom and we live this life to prepare us for the next. While we are here we are suppose to learn a few things, chief of which is that God is God. You can’t run from Him and you can’t hide from Him, so you need to learn about Him and accept his love. Learn to love Him, He is worthy of your love.

Maxx on May 3, 2008 at 11:44 PM

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 11:43 PM

ronsfi original statement was:

The Religious traditions of all the world and all the priesthoods combined have advanced human knowledge not at all.

So your statement that OTHER religions did …. whatever …. is still to admit that something was gained by the world from religion.

But did they let personal belief interfere with their research?

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 11:43 PM

I’m sure for many of them, their faith was their guiding light, their basis for how things worked. It’s only logical that one’s worldview is present in all you do.

Maxx on May 3, 2008 at 11:58 PM

. Usually my answer would simply be, if you got a problem with God, take it up with Him yourself.

Maxx on May 3, 2008 at 11:44 PM

I have called, I have written, I have emailed and I have even tried talking through my hair dryer to Him. And do you know what? Never any damn response. Nothing. Zip. Nada. Not even the courtesy of, “I am busy now and will try to get back to you later” or even a form letter with a machine signature on it. It’s like He didn’t even exists!

MB4 on May 4, 2008 at 12:00 AM

MB4 on May 4, 2008 at 12:00 AM

If you bow you head and ask God… the God of the Bible to prove to you He exist… you will get your answer and there will be no doubt left in your mind.

Maxx on May 4, 2008 at 12:10 AM

Maxx

So your statement that OTHER religions did …. whatever …. is still to admit that something was gained by the world from religion.

Then you need to re-read my post. I did not state that other religions did, but that other societies created similar laws. You would have to belief the untenable claim that all laws originate from religion to equate society with religion.

I’m sure for many of them, their faith was their guiding light, their basis for how things worked. It’s only logical that one’s worldview is present in all you do.

That is not logical at all. If traditional theism is taken at its word, then all is the way it is due to the will of God. That would mean there would be no reason o investigate anything to being with.

Most scientist have a faith, but I dare say most do not let personal faith limited or guide their work.

Gene Splicer on May 4, 2008 at 12:14 AM

Wow. So you freely admit to support a person who has claim that we should go to foreign lands, kill their leaders and convert them?

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 11:19 PM

Yes I do. Especially when they have just crashed two planes into our buildings and killed three-thousand of our people. Did you not notice the contest of the quote or it’s time frame?

Maxx on May 4, 2008 at 12:17 AM

that should be “context”

Maxx on May 4, 2008 at 12:18 AM

If you bow you head and ask God… the God of the Bible to prove to you He exist… you will get your answer and there will be no doubt left in your mind.

Maxx on May 4, 2008 at 12:10 AM

OK, well I tried that and it didn’t work either. Still no damn answer, not even a whisper. Maybe if I keep my head bowed long enough I will become dizzy and think that I hear something. Is that how it’s suppose to work? That’s the only think I can figure. I am glad that I am by myself right now as I am sure that I looked damn silly.

MB4 on May 4, 2008 at 12:20 AM

Considering other societies created similar laws prior to the creation of the xian religion, then the answer would be no.

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 11:43 PM

OK, I missed that, I see what you are saying now. But I still disagree. Christianity is one of the largest, if not the largest religions in the world, thus a HUGE impact on civilization. What other set of laws similar to the Ten Commandments has stood such a test of time or is as widespread? For that matter what other civilization prior to the Ten Commandments, produced a moral code of such eloquence? And even if you are aware of such a code, what was that code’s mooring… it certainly wasn’t the God of the Bible.

Maxx on May 4, 2008 at 12:28 AM

MB4 on May 4, 2008 at 12:20 AM

God knows you heart MB4, and if you sincerely wanted to know, you would not be denied.

Maxx on May 4, 2008 at 12:29 AM

Maxx
Yes I do. Especially when they have just crashed two planes into our buildings and killed three-thousand of our people.

So all Muslims are at fault or culpable? That is the blanket condemnation everyone faces form fundamental Muslims now. And you, as a xian, are possessive of the same desire?

It doesn’t matter when she made that claim. It is still wrong.

Did you not notice the contest of the quote or it’s time frame?

Yes, I noticed.

Don’t be concerned with typos by the way. Unless you are trying to win a juvenile contest or act like one, such mistakes are irrelevant. Judging by your posts, I don’t think that is how you operate or conduct yourself.

Gene Splicer on May 4, 2008 at 12:29 AM

Gene Splicer on May 4, 2008 at 12:29 AM

Well I disagree, I don’t think…. let me rephrase that… I know that you cannot allow any group to viciously attack your own countrymen and just pretend it didn’t happen. You will only get more of the same.

Now, I know you are going to think I am running away from defending Coulter on that quote… but I’m not, it’s just that to pursue that we are getting pretty far off the topic at hand and maybe we should save that argument for another day.

Maxx on May 4, 2008 at 12:38 AM

Maxx
OK, I missed that, I see what you are saying now. But I still disagree. Christianity is one of the largest, if not the largest religions in the world, thus a HUGE impact on civilization.

I would not contest that.

What other set of laws similar to the Ten Commandments has stood such a test of time or is as widespread? For that matter what other civilization prior to the Ten Commandments, produced a moral code of such eloquence? And even if you are aware of such a code, what was that code’s mooring… it certainly wasn’t the God of the Bible.

There existed prior to the creation of the xian religion other civilizations like the Romans, Greeks and Sumerians who created similar laws. The Code of Hammurabi is a good place to start.

If you look at other pagan societies like the Vikings, it would appears that most of the laws in the Ten Commandment are not due to God’s word, but is a commonality due to the desires of mankind.

Our legal system for example is not xian in origin. It descends form English common law which has its origins in the pagan Viking law and legal system

Gene Splicer on May 4, 2008 at 12:40 AM

Maxx
Well I disagree, I don’t think…. let me rephrase that… I know that you cannot allow any group to viciously attack your own countrymen and just pretend it didn’t happen.

Oh, I am not saying to pretend it did not happen, but you punish the guilty, not everyone who carries the same faith.

You will only get more of the same.

True, but again, punish those responsible.

Now, I know you are going to think I am running away from defending Coulter on that quote… but I’m not, it’s just that to pursue that we are getting pretty far off the topic at hand and maybe we should save that argument for another day.

Oaky, that is fine with me. I would just think that in the fight against barbarians, we should not become ones ourselves.

Gene Splicer on May 4, 2008 at 12:45 AM

Gene Splicer on May 4, 2008 at 12:40 AM

I’ve heard of the Code of Harmmurabi but I know little of nothing about it. I’m not really prepared to argue where English common law came from either, sorry.

Maxx on May 4, 2008 at 12:49 AM

Between Heaven and Hell, I refuse to choose, as you see I have friends in both places.
- Mark Twain

MB4 on May 4, 2008 at 12:51 AM

Well, it’s time for me to say my prayers, clean my guns and go to bed. Goodnight all.

Maxx on May 4, 2008 at 12:59 AM

Maxx

LOL. Night Maxx.

Gene Splicer on May 4, 2008 at 1:02 AM

Maxx

LOL. Night Maxx.

Gene Splicer on May 4, 2008 at 1:02 AM

As I stated earlier, after you asked me the truther-like question of whether or not I am being paid to post here, not to mention your claim that I should be locked up, … I see no need to address any more of your questions.

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 9:53 PM

Typical response. The evolutionist when faced with something they have no answer for will change the subject (popular tactic) it’s what’s called using “cry baby excuses”. You get the threads “cry baby award Gene”. Honorary mention must be made of course to the sad little hateful man ronsfi. But, folks, this is what they do… they will call you names, make a snide remarks (popular) call what you believe a lie, a myth, even call God a liar too. Categorize your evidence with supposed debunked evidence (they do that when the evidence is most damaging to their theory). Categorize you with loonies. Like the truthers (very popular) even though this has nothing to do with the subject at hand. I want to show you what Gene did not, and could not, answer. He posted before that “Evolution has nothing to do with abiogenesis” (abiogenesis is the theory that life can arise spontaneously from non-living matter). So I asked him whether he “believed 4.6 billions years ago, the earth cooled down and developed a hard rocky crust?” That is afterall what evolution teaches. This is in dozens of text books. This is precisely what they teach. They’ll say that the oceans formed as it rained on the rocks for millions of years. And then slowly, somehow, somewhere, long ago and far away, the melted rocks in the oceans… the dust and particles.. the minerals out of the rocks.. became a cosmic soup of some kind and this soup came alive. And the first life form found someone to marry, and something to eat and slowly evolved into everything we see today. Do you know what that is? ABIOGENESIS — life evolving from non-living matter! Check mate, Gene.

Side note: Not all evolutionists are like Gene and ronsfi. Some are reasonable to debate. The reason these two are impossible to debate is because God has already given them up to be reprobates for “believing a lie”. When someone refuses to see the most simple stuff there is a high chance you are debating a reprobate (morally depraved person) and you cannot reason with a reprobate. The Bible tells us God he gives them over to their lusts and they start believing a lie:

“And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness… haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things… And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. ” Romans 1:28-34, 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

I have no more questions for you Gene. Zero. Ciao.

apacalyps on May 4, 2008 at 1:54 AM

Maxx on May 3, 2008 at 11:44 PM

You are well programmed I must give you that. It is plain you are a seeker. Do you wish to worship a god who neglects the dying, sick and hungry, to perform plastic surgery on the privileged? From your posts I can tell you seek to do good. To BE good and you believe in loving others. I sense your heart is good. Which just means you give a shit. Free yourself from the those who would use your best instincts for their own purpose and selfish pursuit of power. Free yourself from fear. Bear the burden of goodness for goodness sake and not for fear of damnation or eternal retribution. But just because goodness is good. Like the wheel is good. Like the plow is good. Like a mothers love is good. I don’t have any answers, but I know bullshit when I see it. Maybe that’s the best I can do. Won’t keep me from trying. I can’t tell you how to do it. You must find a way on your own. I can tell you some have found it. So you can too. Good luck and bring on the Bullshit from the Cultists who are about to freak out about what I’ve said. It isn’t meant for them. they crave structure but then that is the first step towards liberty.

ronsfi on May 4, 2008 at 2:05 AM

The reason these two are impossible to debate is because God has already given them up to be reprobates for “believing a lie”.

apacalyps on May 4, 2008 at 1:54 AM

Ohh ho ho ho ho! Oh packy ahahhaha!

You speak for god now? God has given up on us? HA! You are just so classic. How did you find out that “God has already given them up to be reprobates”? Really. Did he come to you in a dream packy? Did he? Are you a prophet pachy? I think you really believe you are. Well you have followed the same path as all cultists from time immemorial.
Maybe you should kill us. Burn us? What else is God telling you?

ronsfi on May 4, 2008 at 2:17 AM

apacalyps on May 4, 2008 at 1:54 AM
When someone refuses to see the most simple stuff there is a high chance you are debating a reprobate (morally depraved person) and you cannot reason with a reprobate. The Bible tells us God he gives them over to their lusts and they start believing a lie:

Here’s a word that comes to mind. Projection.

Ok revised list of things I’ve been called in these threads.

Satanist
Racist
Pedophile
Necrophiliac
Stupid
Stupid again
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
Stupid
Stupid
Retarded
Reprobate
Evil
Hitler
Nazi
Fascist
Liar

Other than that, everyones been a real peach.

ronsfi on May 4, 2008 at 2:34 AM

ronsfi on May 4, 2008 at 2:34 AM

I don’t think that even Christ was called that many names in as short a time span although if there had been an internet back then he probably would have been. Maybe you are the Second Coming?

Sigy on May 4, 2008 at 3:27 AM

Nope. Just some asshole on a blog thread like you.

ronsfi on May 4, 2008 at 3:30 AM

Maybe you should kill us. Burn us? What else is God telling you?

ronsfi on May 4, 2008 at 2:17 AM

Lord only knows what he thinks that God is telling him now. In my professional opinion he should probably be put in very secure restraints until we find out.

Sigy on May 4, 2008 at 3:31 AM

Sigy on May 4, 2008 at 3:31 AM

Yeah. Ha. Maybe. The truth is in him and it’s eating it’s way out. It’s like a fever. He’ll either pull through and become a normal relaxed faithful Christian like those we know and love or hell suck up inside himself and swallow the bitter pill of resentment. Where that leads, who knows? Not a good place though. He’s very intense and smart. So, could be dangerous. Let’s hope that good wills out.

ronsfi on May 4, 2008 at 3:42 AM

If someone thinks that all law has its basis in religion and that it is the duty of the righteous to enforce those laws on others, then that person should consider Islam as his/her religion and its integrated legal system called Shari’a.

The Biblical interdictions in the 10 commandments were really only meant to be applicable to the Jews as can be seen by what god let them do in that wonderful blood thirsty sin packed Book of Judges (probably written by an ancestor of Stephen King).

Annar on May 4, 2008 at 6:07 AM

That is not logical at all. If traditional theism is taken at its word, then all is the way it is due to the will of God. That would mean there would be no reason o investigate anything to being with.

When you study a cell, you see a random soup. I see a little bit of a supreme being. Which one of us looks on with more wonder? Well, whatever. The Bible tells us to “study the world” and to “increase in knowledge”. And by the way, I’ve actually done scientific research (in graduate school). Have any of you?

Wow. So you freely admit to support a person who has claim that we should go to foreign lands, kill their leaders and convert them?

Of course. It’s called “war”. Ever heard of that? We didn’t start it, but we damn well better finish it.

The Religious traditions of all the world and all the priesthoods combined have advanced human knowledge not at all.

Actually they have, but that’s not the point. Saying “cooking hasn’t advanced human knowledge at all” is just as dumb. That’s not the point of cooking, just as “advancing human knowledge (of the physical world)” isn’t the point of “religion”. The “point” of “religion”, is to help people live with each other, and to teach you there’s something more important than “self”. But you atheists wouldn’t understand that – self is the only thing there is for you guys (I know – you’ll argue with that, but it’s still true.)

Squiggy on May 4, 2008 at 6:29 AM

I don’t know what happened to Alan Craig who was supposed to run and proposed the interdiction on the building of the mega mosque, Did Boris Johnson specifically promise to not let it be built? If the Saudis are willing to pick up the tab there would be no budgetary concerns and only the government could stop it.

Annar on May 4, 2008 at 7:02 AM

Sorry, wrong thread for my last post.

Annar on May 4, 2008 at 7:04 AM

Squiggy . R4L and apacalyps, you can insult me and other all you like. You can pat yourself on the back for you mutual hatred (lock you up, name calling) of those who see ID and CS for the pseudoscience it is

You’re lying. I haven’t once mentioned ID or CS. I have no opinion on the subject. I teach my own children, and I wouldn’t trust idiot evolutionist teachers anyway. They leave too many important details out of the textbooks today, details that completely destroy their agenda (see “global warming” for example. I’d say “see evolution” but you guys have already closed your minds to anything that disproves that.) One more example of something they won’t print in the textbooks anymore – who said “God does not play dice with the universe”? Hint – it wasn’t some pseudo-intellectual like you guys.

Oh, and “ronsfi”, copying and pasting other peoples work is the mark of a lack of intellectual capacity (or maybe just laziness, but, like you, I’d rather assume the worst). As for Hitler, he was a socialist (just like the demorats of today), and he believed the church was an institution to be used to further his goals (just like the demorats of today). There was nothing Christian about him or his actions.

Squiggy on May 4, 2008 at 7:19 AM

I never said god and satan are natural beings although I do think the Abrahamic versions of these characters that you believe in are fictional characters created by human beings. If you wish to invoke the supernatural you’ll have to first prove scientifically that your particular god exists and it can indeed viloate natural law.

thats already been proven. the resurrection is a fact. just because hate-filled atheists like you don’t believe it, doesn’t mean it isn’t true.

deal with it.

right4life on May 4, 2008 at 10:38 AM

Squiggy . R4L and apacalyps, you can insult me and other all you like. You can pat yourself on the back for you mutual hatred (lock you up, name calling) of those who see ID and CS for the pseudoscience it is and you can be proud of your intellectually dishonest claims and maneuvering, but in the end, evolution is still supported by years of research and mountains of proof and data you simply choose to ignore.

whats amusing is that you are unable to argue evolution with me. the things I’ve posted that disprove evolution, you and you evolutionist friends, are unable to dispute.

It will be taught in schools and colleges while ID and CS are not. Those who choose to ignore or disbelieve it will be limited in jobs available to them in relation to research.

yeah because you ‘tolerant’ darewiniacs are really a bunch of nazis. and what you do to people like sternberg proves it.

right4life on May 4, 2008 at 10:41 AM

Are all atheists as stupid as the ones exposing their low-teen IQS in this thread?

yes

right4life on May 4, 2008 at 10:43 AM

Now explain to me if Hitler was a Christian, why he did all in his power to destroy the Christian church?

that would require the ability to think on the part of ronsfi, and he obviously has not evolved that yet.

right4life on May 4, 2008 at 10:44 AM

So soon. Well who’s going to spread the love?

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 8:04 PM

why cast pearls before swine?

right4life on May 4, 2008 at 10:47 AM

If you look at other pagan societies like the Vikings, it would appears that most of the laws in the Ten Commandment are not due to God’s word, but is a commonality due to the desires of mankind.

Our legal system for example is not xian in origin. It descends form English common law which has its origins in the pagan Viking law and legal system

same old lies, still nothing to back them up. no surprise!!

right4life on May 4, 2008 at 10:48 AM

whats amusing is these evolutionist/atheists cannot defend their theory. they are unable to answer any of the criticism of evolution. All they can do is try to silence those who disagree with their faith in their hairy god darwin.

and whats even funnier is the ‘scientists’ I have debated are just as clueless.

right4life on May 4, 2008 at 10:50 AM

There’s that bitter pill.

ronsfi on May 4, 2008 at 10:59 AM

Other than that, everyones been a real peach.

ronsfi on May 4, 2008 at 2:34 AM

I called you adorable :)

p.s. don’t fight unwinnable things. There’s a place between heaven and hell.

Entelechy on May 4, 2008 at 12:25 PM

Do you wish to worship a god who neglects the dying, sick and hungry, to perform plastic surgery on the privileged?

ronsfi on May 4, 2008 at 2:05 AM

One thing there is no shortage of in this world is opportunities to do good. That’s what all of dying , sick and hungry people are. God told us that anytime you do as little has give a drink of water to the least of these it’s as if you had seen God Himself thirsty and given Him water to drink. Think about that the next time you see someone in need.

On a national scale the predominately Christian nation of American is almost always the first on the scene providing help in any disaster. We can rightly and proudly boast to being the most generous nation in the world…. because we are. That’s God’s love at work and He expects all of His servants to lend a hand. I do very little to help, but even the little I do is better than to sit back and curse God for the dying, sick and hungry.

Free yourself from the those who would use your best instincts for their own purpose and selfish pursuit of power. Free yourself from fear.

ronsfi on May 4, 2008 at 2:05 AM

Nothing and no one so much as lays a finger one me without God’s approval. I know that sounds over zealous, but I see it in my life all the time. It seems no matter what the situation, when the wrath falls down it always manages to miss me. I don’t have to fear, that’s one of the great things about acknowledging God, I use to fear death, I don’t anymore, nor do I look forward to it.

I look on the horizon of this world and see many horrors approaching, I dread it, yet my fear of it is contained because God basically says, “Stick with me and you’ll be OK.” And I believe that and it keeps me from trembling in fear. So the only thing I really have to fear is God Himself and that’s the beginning of wisdom.

Didn’t mean to get so preachy… I usually try to avoid that… but you hit a nerve. And I’m trying to be concise.

Maxx on May 4, 2008 at 12:40 PM

Entelechy on May 4, 2008 at 12:25 PM

Ha! That’s right. You’re adorable yourself. Thank you.
People are going to talk…

Is it wrong to poke at the trolls for my own amusement?

ronsfi on May 4, 2008 at 12:41 PM

The main characters of the Pentateuch do not seem to benefit from recognition in non-biblical history. In the case of Moses who was supposed to have lived and been exiled during the reign of Ramses II there in no mention at all in the Egyptian record, nor is there any trace of a large group of Jews living as slaves in Egypt. The character of Moses was, most probably, invented from pre-existing legends. His entry on scene is almost identical to the birth narrative of Sargon of Akkad, a Mesopotamian King who ruled in the millennium before Moses, which reads, “My priestly mother conceived me, in secret she bore me. She set me in a basket of rushes, with bitumen she sealed my lid.” There is also a similar legend recounting the birth of the Egyptian god Horus.

Also worth of note is the fact that no archeological trace has been found for the 40 year period when Moses and his tribe were wandering around in the desert. Israeli scholars, who have a vested interest in finding such records, have come up with nothing. This linked article is interesting in this regard.

Annar on May 4, 2008 at 1:33 PM

Oh, come off it Annar… you don’t have to believe that Moses was commanded by god to do the things he did in order to believe that he was a real man.

Watcher on May 4, 2008 at 1:54 PM

Annar on May 4, 2008 at 1:33 PM

I don’t think I’ve ever read a more corrupt, perverted, God hating article than that one.

I don’t think I’ve ever read a more corrupt, perverted, God hating article than that one.

Why do you suppose the Jews celebrate the festivals commanded by God in Exodus to this very day? They are the Passover and the festival of the booths among others.

No evidence in the desert? What would you expect to find from a people who lived in tents and traveled through that land over two-thousand years ago?

Look up the Ipuwer papyrus, which is widely accepted as a secular eye witness account of the plagues that hit Egypt.

Maxx on May 4, 2008 at 2:01 PM

Watcher on May 4, 2008 at 1:54 PM

Whether he was real or not I don’t buy the supernaturalism. Until now there is no historical proof as to his existence as a real human being. Perhaps some will eventually be found. However, if he is nothing but a mythical construct, Christianity, Islam and all their sub cults all die automatically at the same time.

Fortunately for the believers, it impossible to prove definitely that such a person never existed for the same reason you can’t prove that Russell’s teapot is not out there beyond the Kuyper belt, but if no secular evidence of his life ever shows up more and more people will tend to conclude that the Bible stories are just as fictional as the Norse sagas.

Annar on May 4, 2008 at 2:19 PM

recently proposed a revised chronology, dating the Exodus to the Second Intermediate Period, in which case Ipuwer might refer to that event. However, Rohl’s chronology has been rejected by most Egyptologists.[7]. Moreover, the association of Ipuwer with the Exodus is generally rejected by Egyptologists, who when interpreting the Exodus as a historical event generally place it later, in the reign of Ramesses II. Some have alternatively interpreted the poem’s references to disturbances in nature as relating to the Thera eruption, which according to dendrochronology and radiocarbon dating occurred ca. 1650-1600 BC.

“Both the Exodus and Thera interpretations (which can be combined with each other, and sometimes are) assume that the poem records a historical event, which is disputed by many Egyptologists.[8] Recently, the poem has instead been interpreted by some as an essentially ahistorical, timeless consideration of the theme of ‘order vs. chaos’. On this reading, the references in Ipuwer to rivers of blood, and to slaves revolting, may be schematic ‘world turned upside down’ laments rather than reports of specific historical events.”

ronsfi on May 4, 2008 at 2:24 PM

Here is a comparison between the secular account from the “Admonitions of Ipuwer” and Exodus.

Maxx on May 4, 2008 at 2:27 PM

It is impossible to give a date for the composition of this document. The surviving papyrus (Papyrus Leiden 334) itself is a copy made during the New Kingdom. Ipuwer is generally supposed to have lived during the Middle Kingdom or the Second Intermediate Period, and the catastrophes he bewails to have taken place four centuries earlier during the First Intermediate Period.
On the other hand, Miriam Lichtheim, following S. Luria, contends that

the ‘Admonitions of Ipuwer’ has not only no bearing whatever on the long past First Intermediate Period, it also does not derive from any other historical situation. It is the last, fullest, most exaggerated and hence least successful, composition on the theme “order versus chaos.”
M. Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature, Volume I, p.150

Fringe historians often compare the content of this papyrus with Exodus, the second book of the Bible [1]. Similarities between Egyptian texts and the Bible are easily found, and it is reasonable to assume Egyptian influence on the Hebrews, given their at times close contacts. But to conclude from such parallelisms that the Ipuwer Papyrus describes Egypt at the time of the Exodus, requires a leap of faith not everybody is willing to make.

http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/texts/ipuwer.htm

ronsfi on May 4, 2008 at 2:31 PM

Doesn’t sound so “widely accepted” to me.

ronsfi on May 4, 2008 at 2:33 PM

ronsfi on May 4, 2008 at 2:24 PM

Yes, that’s the text from Wiki that you’ve posted. Naturally the secular view would get the emphasis’s there. But read for yourself the comparison I’ve posted above and make up your own mind.

Maxx on May 4, 2008 at 2:33 PM

I doesn’t matter, if the date is wrong and my opinions on history are wholly unqualified. I rely on those who are much smarter than myself.

ronsfi on May 4, 2008 at 2:35 PM

Article Maxx is referring to.
Maxx on May 4, 2008 at 2:01 PM

I don’t think I’ve ever read a more corrupt, perverted, God hating article than that one.

And one would think that Jewish authors should get some deference with respect to studying their prophets.

Annar on May 4, 2008 at 3:41 PM

And one would think that Jewish authors should get some deference with respect to studying their prophets.

Annar on May 4, 2008 at 3:41 PM

I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that in atheistic circles Gods prophets aren’t getting any better treatment today than they did in their own day.

Maxx on May 4, 2008 at 4:43 PM

Other than that, everyones been a real peach.

ronsfi on May 4, 2008 at 2:34 AM

Just for the record, a few of ronsfi’s comments from the first ‘Expelled’ thread: (emphasis mine)

It is tiresome addressing the same tired lies from the same tired ass fools.
ronsfi on April 18, 2008 at 7:21 PM

I did not start the ID BS. Thread NAZI!
ronsfi on April 18, 2008 at 7:49 PM

Yeah? where is YOUR proof of these “hoaxes” witch burner.
ronsfi on April 18, 2008 at 7:51 PM

you idiots are so tiresome. See my previous comments. Once again you leg humpin bible thumpin Jesus FREAKS, assert the same ass LIE. THE FOSSIL RECORD IS FULL FULL FULL OF TRANSITIONAL FORMS. YOUR DUMB ASS REDNECK HILLBILLY PASTORS ARE FULL OF SHIT. Idiots like you who deny the Heliocentric Solar System make Conservatives look ridiculous. You reinforce the stereotype of the backwoods ignorant fundamentalists who have fought intellectual progress for centuries. I have no problem with “Faith” and “God” and “Religon”. If it brings you comfort, them I am pleased. I am willing to accept that I may just may not get it. However, when you slander GREAT minds like Charles Darwin who was GOOD MAN. Ethical, Honest, Well Studied and Brilliant. A Genious! You step over the line. You should hope to someday come remotely near the stature of such intellect. None of your Fire and Brimstone theologians hustlers! can compare to such a great thinker. None. You are so tiresome. Over and over you present the same lies. Your idiotic claims demonstrate nothing but ignorance of the scientific method. You look like fools. It was YOUR KIND that censured Galileo. It was YOUR KIND that burned helpless innocent old women as “Witches”. It was YOUR KIND who established the Inquisition. It was YOUR KIND that brought death and destruction to the native peoples of several continents in the name of Christ. YOUR KIND! People like you! I refuse to sit idle while you taint the Conservative cause with your iron age cosmology disguised as psudo-science.
ronsfi on April 19, 2008 at 7:55 PM

Peachy.

labrat on May 4, 2008 at 5:25 PM

I am so flattered that you are preserving my greatest hits. It’s nice to know I am making a difference in your life. I really fired ‘em up that day. LOL!

ronsfi on May 4, 2008 at 6:43 PM

By the way, those are referring to specific commenters and they deserve every word.

ronsfi on May 4, 2008 at 6:47 PM

Just a couple of days later we were treated fine example of just what I was referring to.

Mangia!

http://hotair.com/archives/2008/04/22/video-idiot-blows-the-lid-off-the-obamaosama-connection/

ronsfi on May 4, 2008 at 6:54 PM

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