Ben Stein misses his own point

posted at 5:35 pm on April 30, 2008 by Ed Morrissey

John Derbyshire finds a rather disturbing comment from Ben Stein in an interview he did with TBN earlier this month, promoting his new film Expelled: The Movie. In explaining his reaction to researching the Holocaust by visiting Dachau and Hadamar, Stein railed against the distortions of Darwinian theory that led to the systematic eugenics murders and genocide of the Nazi regime. However, Stein misses the target by a mile when he says this at about the 28-minute mark:

Stein: When we just saw that man, I think it was Mr. Myers [i.e. biologist P.Z. Myers], talking about how great scientists were, I was thinking to myself the last time any of my relatives saw scientists telling them what to do they were telling them to go to the showers to get gassed … that was horrifying beyond words, and that’s where science — in my opinion, this is just an opinion — that’s where science leads you.

Crouch: That’s right.

Stein: …Love of God and compassion and empathy leads you to a very glorious place, and science leads you to killing people.

Crouch: Good word, good word.

I found a lot to recommend about Expelled, but this leaves me wondering if Ben Stein missed the point of his movie. Science does not lead to Dachau; ideology perverting science led to Dachau. The Holocaust occurred when raving anti-Semites and materialists latched onto scientific theory as a philosophy, making it into a rationalization for what they would have done regardless.

How could Stein say this without a hint of irony? The best themes in Expelled take Academia to task for the same destructive sin. Instead of pursuing all paths of scientific pursuit, the academics have imposed their philosophy and their ideology against religion as a means to keep anyone from testing the theories of random, accidental beginnings of life. In a similar manner to what’s seen in the global-warming debate, dissenting voices are excoriated as heretics and idiots, rather than letting the science speak for itself.

Instead of making the proper point that Stein makes in the movie, he now suggests that science itself is evil. That’s absurd. Scientific knowledge has for centuries gone hand in hand with the quest to come closer to God through understanding His creation, as Stein’s own movie argues. The application and expansion of science has led to huge advances in life, health, knowledge, and living standards. Can evil acts come from scientific advances, and can some scientists be evil? Of course — as with any other profession, but the acts come from overt human actions, not from the science.

The pure scientific method ignores ideology in favor of reproducible results, which leads to knowledge — not genocide. Expelled wants Academia to stop applying ideology to science, which is absolutely correct. Stein’s quote above discredits that message and makes the effort sound like an argument against science altogether, and Stein’s broad accusation against scientists is grossly unfair. It sounds like Stein is applying his own ideology instead of supporting the scientific method.


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Have a good night everybody. I don’t hate you. I’m actually on your side. My advice: Give up this silly faith in evolution, and trust the God of the Bible (who created this universe and will be your Judge, and mine, very soon).

“Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all.” Jude 1:14-15

apacalyps on May 3, 2008 at 2:00 AM

Have a good night everyone. My advice: Give up this silly faith in evolution, and trust the God of the Bible (who created this universe and will be your Judge, and mine, very soon).

“Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all.” Jude 1:14-15

apacalyps on May 3, 2008 at 2:01 AM

9000 year old tree

http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/world039s-oldest-living-tree-discovered-sweden-15937.html

100,000-Year-Old Culture

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5504545

Persians started use of makeup and jewelry 10,000 years ago

http://www.topnews.in/persians-started-use-makeup-and-jewelry-10-000-years-ago-221205

Lascaux Cave Paintings

http://www.mazzaroth.com/ChapterOne/LascauxCave.htm

Egypt’s 1st Dynasty

http://www.touregypt.net/hdyn1.htm

Give up your silly faith in extra-dimensional wizards.

Thanks for clogging another thread with your hateful rantings.

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 3:49 AM

9,000-year History Of Chinese Fermented Beverages Confirmed

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/12/041206205817.htm

Stone Age Picassos – The world’s oldest cave paintings

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/human-evolution/mg15120384.200.html

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 3:55 AM

I love this series.

Penn and Teller Bullshit – Creationism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdzJVXUJV7E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZe_z9eR0Kw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fZdt3x5Bmk

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 4:09 AM

And since there is so much Biblical scripture posted.

Penn & Teller; The Bible is Bullshit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RV46fsmx6E

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 4:13 AM

Zardoz is pleased.

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 4:14 AM

May the good Lord Jesus bless you forever labrat.

“And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32

apacalyps on May 2, 2008 at 8:38 PM

Thank you brother. He has beyond measure. God bless you for your boldness and insight, and God help this “faithless and perverse” generation.

labrat on May 3, 2008 at 4:45 AM

And good morning ronsfi.

Penn & Teller; The Bible is Bullshit.

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 4:13 AM

One thing about you sir, you hit the ground running.

labrat on May 3, 2008 at 4:47 AM

I have not lied. The supports of ID and CS wish to put religion back into schools.

I’m reading all this and I don’t see people arguing about that. I keep seeing you claim they want that, but that’s not the same thing.

And by the way, “xtian” is a moronic way to attempt an insult.

And only a moron would assume that it was meant as an insult. I did not use “xtian” but xian. It is an abbreviation much like xmas.

Gene Splicer on May 2, 2008 at 9:04 PM

Oh. XIAN. That’s totally different. It was a typo, mr. superiority. And you are lying. It most definitely IS meant as an insult. People who type 500 word posts don’t use ONE abbreviation.

You’re under 30 aren’t you? You have knowledge but no wisdom (and you don’t even know what wisdom is). Get someone mature to explain things to you.

Squiggy on May 3, 2008 at 6:31 AM

Oh, and Gene? About xmas, you don’t celebrate that do you? That would be hypocritical (get someone mature to define that word for you).

Squiggy on May 3, 2008 at 6:33 AM

You fail to address the fact that God was on every Nazi Belt buckle.

Is this true? I don’t know, but so what? “In God we trust” is on every dollar. So by your logic, every American believes in God (especially you).

Squiggy on May 3, 2008 at 7:29 AM

All you have to do is show me where you cited the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_law#The_Twelve_Tables link first. You only used a limited quote from the main article.

look it up yourself. you’re a liar, proven many times over, and you don’t have the integrity, or guts to admit it. you are a good liberal evolutionist, no doubt about it.

So you are not familiar with your own bible?

this is funnier than your claim that roman emporers were not worshipped… so you think when the bible says FOUR CORNERS it means ‘the world is flat’ uh huh…have you heard of the 4 corners area where colorado meets arizona, new mexico, etc…do you think when we refer to that areas the 4 CORNERS we are saying the world is flat? how old are you? seriously anyone in grade school would not be this foolish.

Now, why would the bible use the term circle instead of ball?

more pathetic stupidity. amazing.

Giordano Bruno supported the heliocentric model

another LIE ALERTbefore you said he was killed because he believed the earth was not flat…uh thats not what a heliocentric, or geocentric model means…now if you say you’re not lying, then your ignorance is profound.

Bruno was burned at the steak for this and many other crimes.

uh its STAKE….we eat STEAK..again how old are you?

And again, this occurred at the foundation of the Roman empire around 510 BCE? No. IT was established later in the Roman empire.

uh who cares? you denied it happened at all!! and it went on for CENTURIES…too funny!!

And again, in context, the laws set forth as the foundation of the Roman empire were, according to you, based upon religion. Which gods inspired which laws?

yeah that link you tried to steal from me proves it. you’re trying to say it said one thing in one sentence and then denied it in the next…your ‘logic’ is laughable.

Ah yes. Anyone who disagrees with you is automatically your enemy or one of those you classify as one.

oh you’re not my enemy, this is too funny…you’ve made yourself an enemy of Someone much more important than me…..you have no idea….how would you like it if your son saved someone in 9/11 at the cost of his, and the person he saved came and spit on your son’s grave, and in your face? thats about what you are doing.

So you don’t have the conviction of your claims and did find a way out of the invitation.

So if you are unable to prove your claims to a group of scientists, then exactly how do you plan on getting ID and CS in schools? After all, it has been ruled as religion and by a conservative judge or one seen as such by Bush.

another lie. can’t you read? I’ve already done it. as far as convincing some mad-dog darwiniac, ever try to convince an imam islam was false? not easy. they’re wacko arrogant nut-jobs, but they’re not as smart as they think they are.

newsflash bush isn’t a conservative, and just because he appoints someone doesn’t mean they’re conservative. that liquor control guy jones had to copy his ruling from the ACLU and still made himself look like an idiot…too funny!

right4life on May 3, 2008 at 11:46 AM

You’re under 30 aren’t you?

can’t be over 20, at least I hope for his sake!! if he is wow, really sad.

right4life on May 3, 2008 at 11:48 AM

Medicine if it seeks to use materials that are forbidden in scripture.

more darwiniac propoganda. truth is:

It is curious that Charles Darwin, perhaps medicine’s most famous dropout, provided the impetus for a subject that figures so rarely in medical education. Indeed, even the iconic textbook example of evolution-antibiotic resistance-is rarely described as “evolution” in relevant papers published in medical journals [1].

http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.0050112&ct=1

To some extent these excesses are not Mindell’s fault, for, if truth be told, evolution hasn’t yielded many practical or commercial benefits. Yes, bacteria evolve drug resistance, and yes, we must take countermeasures, but beyond that there is not much to say. Evolution cannot help us predict what new vaccines to manufacture because microbes evolve unpredictably. But hasn’t evolution helped guide animal and plant breeding? Not very much. Most improvement in crop plants and animals occurred long before we knew anything about evolution, and came about by people following the genetic principle of `like begets like’. Even now, as its practitioners admit, the field of quantitative genetics has been of little value in helping improve varieties. Future advances will almost certainly come from transgenics, which is not based on evolution at all.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v442/n7106/full/442983a.html

evolution is useless in science…its a fairy tale. even the evolutionists know this and are running from it:

Papers are in. MIT will publish the findings in 2009 – the 150th anniversary of Darwin’s publication of the Origin of Species. And despite the fact that organizers are downplaying the Altenberg meeting as a discussion about whether there should be a new theory, it already appears a done deal. Some kind of shift away from the population genetic-centered view of evolution is afoot.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0803/S00051.htm

your racist hairy god darwin has failed.

right4life on May 3, 2008 at 11:53 AM

Oh. XIAN. That’s totally different. It was a typo, mr. superiority. And you are lying.

he does that quite frequently, but what is truth, right, wrong, to an evolutionist?

right4life on May 3, 2008 at 11:55 AM

From the German Workers’ Party “Programme”. Sort of a constitution.

24. We demand liberty for all religious denominations in the State, so far as they are not a danger to it and do not militate against the morality and moral sense of the German race. The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not bind itself in the matter of creed to any particular confession. It combats the Jewish-materialist spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health from within only on the principle: the common interest before self-interest.

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 11:56 AM

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice…. And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people…. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 11:57 AM

LOL. They sure have better grasp of diction and proper punctuation than you, so yes, their intellect is not low enough to be janitors.

at least my kids know the difference between stake and steak!!! (smirk)

right4life on May 3, 2008 at 11:59 AM

There are three words which many use without a thought which for us are no catch-phrases: Love, Faith, and Hope…. We are fanatical in our love for our people….

We have faith in the rights of our people, the rights which have existed time out of mind. We protest against the view that every other nation should have rights – and we have none. We must learn to make our own this blind faith in the rights of our people, in the necessity of devoting ourselves to the service of these rights; we must make our own the faith that gradually victory must be granted us if only we are fanatical enough. And from this love and from this faith there emerges for us the idea of hope. When others doubt and hesitate for the future of Germany – we have no doubts. We have both the hope and the faith that Germany will and must once more become great and mighty.

We have faith that one day Heaven will bring the Germans back into a Reich over which there shall be no Soviet star, no Jewish star of David, but above that Reich there shall be the symbol of German labor – the Swastika. And that will mean that the first of May has truly come.

-Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich, 01 May 1923

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 11:59 AM

People ask: is there someone fit to be our leader? Our task is not to search for that person. Either God will give him to us or he will not come. Our task is to shape the sword that he will need when he comes. Our task it to provide the leader with a nation which is ready for him when he comes! My fellow Germans, awaken! The new day is dawning!

-Adolf Hitler, 04 May 1923

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 12:00 PM

Matthew 4:8
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Sorry, that would not be possible even from a 1000 mile high mountain, if such existed. However, if one believed the Earth to be flat, no problem.

Annar on May 3, 2008 at 12:00 PM

Amid his political associates in Berlin, Hitler made harsh pronouncements against the church, but in the presence of the women he adopted a milder tone—one of the instances where he adapted his remarks to his surroundings. [Speer, Albert, Inside the Third Reich, Bonanza Books, New York, p. 95]

“The church is certainly necessary for the people. It is a strong conservative element,” he might say at one time or another in this private circle. However, he conceived of the church as a instrument that could be useful to him…”Through me the Evangelical [Protestant] Church could become the established church, as in England.” … Undoubtedly, he continued, the church would learn to adapt the political goals of National Socialism in the long run, as it had always adapted in the course of history. [Speer, p. 95]

Around 1937, when Hitler heard that at the instigation of the party and the SS vast numbers of his followers had left the church because it was obstinately opposing his plans, he nevertheless ordered his chief associates, above all Goering and Goebbels, to remain members of the church. He too would remain a member of the Catholic Church, he said, although he had no real attachment to it. And in fact he remained in the church until his suicide. [Speer, p. 95-96]

Hitler usually concluded this historical speculation by remarking “You see, it’s been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn’t we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness? [Speer, p. 96]

This phenomenal confidence in victory in a period of repeated defeats cannot, however, be explained on the grounds of [Hitler's] energy alone….I can only explain Hitler’s rigid attitude on the grounds that he made himself believe in his ultimate victory. In a sense he was worshiping himself. He was forever holding up to himself a mirror in which he saw not only himself but the confirmation of his mission by divine Providence. His religion was based on the “lucky break” which must necessarily come his way; he method was to reinforce himself by autosuggestion. The more events drove him into a corner, the more obstinately he opposed to them his certainty about the intentions of Fate. Naturally, he also soberly understood the military facts. But he transmuted them by his own faith and regarded even defeat as a secret guarantee, offered by Providence, of the coming victory. Sometimes he could realize the hopelessness of a situation, but he could not be shaken in his expectation that at the last moment Fate would suddenly turn the tide in his favor. If there was any fundamental insanity in Hitler, it was this unshakable belief in his lucky star. He was by nature a religious man, but his capacity for belief had been perverted into belief in himself. [Speer, p. 357]

right4life on May 3, 2008 at 12:02 PM

We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls…. We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity… in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Passau, 27 October 1928

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 12:04 PM

Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Sorry, that would not be possible even from a 1000 mile high mountain, if such existed. However, if one believed the Earth to be flat, no problem.

uh it wouldn’t be possible physically at all. newsflash: the devil is a supernatural being. do you think the devil rode Jesus up there in a horse?

another laughable example of atheist ‘logic’

right4life on May 3, 2008 at 12:04 PM

We are determined, as leaders of the nation, to fulfill as a national government the task which has been given to us, swearing fidelity only to God, our conscience, and our Volk…. This the national government will regard its first and foremost duty to restore the unity of spirit and purpose of our Volk. It will preserve and defend the foundations upon which the power of our nation rests. It will take Christianity, as the basis of our collective morality, and the family as the nucleus of our Volk and state, under its firm protection….May God Almighty take our work into his grace, give true form to our will, bless our insight, and endow us with the trust of our Volk.

-Adolf Hitler, on 1 Feb. 1933, addressing the German nation as Chancellor for the first time, Volkischer Beobachter, 5 Aug. 1935

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 12:04 PM

oh for about the 20th time, hitler was an evolutionist

The Darwin-Hitler connection is no recent discovery. In her classic 1951 work The Origins of Totalitarianism, Hannah Arendt wrote: “Underlying the Nazis’ belief in race laws as the expression of the law of nature in man, is Darwin’s idea of man as the product of a natural development which does not necessarily stop with the present species of human being.”

The standard biographies of Hitler almost all point to the influence of Darwinism on their subject. In Hitler: A Study in Tyranny, Alan Bullock writes: “The basis of Hitler’s political beliefs was a crude Darwinism.” What Hitler found objectionable about Christianity was its rejection of Darwin’s theory: “Its teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle and the survival of the fittest.”

John Toland’s Adolf Hitler: The Definitive Biography says this of Hitler’s Second Book published in 1928: “An essential of Hitler’s conclusions in this book was the conviction drawn from Darwin that might makes right.”

In his biography, Hitler: 1889-1936: Hubris, Ian Kershaw explains that “crude social-Darwinism” gave Hitler “his entire political ‘world-view.’ ” Hitler, like lots of other Europeans and Americans of his day, saw Darwinism as offering a total picture of social reality. This view called “social Darwinism” is a logical extension of Darwinian evolutionary theory and was articulated by Darwin himself.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=Mjg1NDg2ZDM5YTMwMGFiZGNhNTU5M2MwOTQ2NGE1Mjc=

right4life on May 3, 2008 at 12:06 PM

The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc, because it recognized the Jews for what they were”…. I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the church and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions.

-Adolf Hitler, 26 April 1933

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 12:06 PM

The Government, being resolved to undertake the political and moral purification of our public life, are creating and securing the conditions necessary for a really profound revival of religious life…. The National Government regard the two Christian Confessions as the weightiest factors for the maintenance of our nationality. They will respect the agreements concluded between them and the federal States. Their rights are not to be infringed…. It will be the Government’s care to maintain honest co-operation between Church and State; the struggle against materialistic views and for a real national community is just as much in the interest of the German nation as in that of the welfare of our Christian faith. The Government of the Reich, who regard Christianity as the unshakable foundation of the morals and moral code of the nation, attach the greatest value to friendly relations with the Holy See and are endeavouring to develop them.

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech to the Reichstag on 23 March 1933

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 12:07 PM

Goebbels, Nazi Minister of Propaganda, noted:

“The Fuhrer is deeply religous, though completely anti-Christian. He views Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race… Both [Judaism and Christianity] have no point of contact to the animal element, and thus, in the end, they will be destroyed.”

right4life on May 3, 2008 at 12:11 PM

apacalyps on May 3, 2008 at 1:32 AM

I answered your question about abiogenesis. Now you demand more answer all the while casting insults. And again, there is your truther style question of asking me if I was being paid to post here.

You parrot the erroneous claims of Hovind with no knowledge of why what he states is untenable.

Ask all the questions you want. Post all the insults you want. Post all of the disproven claims and Hovind theories you want. Misrepresent establish science all you want. But, again, after your truther question and claim I should be locked up since I do not support your religion, your questions are irrelevant and a waste of time.

Oh, Pah-leeeee-ze…..

That is exactly what you did. But, don’t fret. According you R4L, your source, YouTube, is not a legitimate source.

I don’t hate you. I’m actually on your side. My advice: Give up this silly faith in evolution, and trust the God of the Bible (who created this universe and will be your Judge, and mine, very soon).

And if you do not, you should be locked up like you stated earlier? No hatred there at all.

I prefer to rely upon the tangible an proven methods of science that have led mankind out of the dark ages than the religion that would see us return to such a state.

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 12:12 PM

We want honestly to earn the resurrection of our people through our industry, our perseverance, our will. We ask not of the Almighty ‘Lord, make us free’!– we want to be active, to work, to agree together as brothers, to strive in rivalry with one another to bring about the hour when we can come before Him and when we may ask of Him: ‘Lord, Thou seest that we have transformed ourselves, the German people is not longer the people of dishonour, of shame, of war within itself, of faintheartedness and little faith: no, Lord, the German people has become strong again in spirit, strong in will, strong in endurance, strong to bear all sacrifices.’ ‘Lord, we will not let Thee go: bless now our fight for our freedom; the fight we wage for our German people and Fatherland.’

-Adolf Hitler, giving prayer in a speech on May Day 1933

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 12:13 PM

… still waiting for one, just one, evolutionist to apologize for claiming that the origin of life is not a concern of their pseudo-science

corona on May 3, 2008 at 12:13 PM

National Socialism has always affirmed that it is determined to take the Christian Churches under the protection of the State…. The decisive factor which can justify the existence alike of Church and State is the maintenance of men’s spiritual and bodily health, for it that health were destroyed it would mean the end of the State and also the end of the Church…. It is my sincere hope that thereby for Germany, too, through free agreement there has been produced a final clarification of spheres in the functions of the State and of one Church.

-Adolf Hitler, on a wireless on 22 July, the evening before the Evangelical Church Election

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 12:14 PM

The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is hostile to religion is a lie.

-Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 12:16 PM

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together…. The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity’s illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity…. Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death…. When understanding of the universe has become widespread… Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity…. Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity…. And that’s why someday its structure will collapse…. …the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little…. Christianity the liar…. We’ll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:

The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday:

Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer…. The decisive falsification of Jesus’ doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work… for the purposes of personal exploitation…. Didn’t the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it’s in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight:

Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery…. …. When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let’s be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)

14th December, 1941, midday:

Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don’t believe the thing’s possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself…. Pure Christianity– the Christianity of the catacombs– is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner:

There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday:

It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors– but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity…. My regret will have been that I couldn’t… behold .” (p 278)

right4life on May 3, 2008 at 12:16 PM

We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 12:22 PM

Mathew 4:8
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Sorry, that would not be possible even from a 1000 mile high mountain, if such existed. However, if one believed the Earth to be flat, no problem.

uh it wouldn’t be possible physically at all. newsflash: the devil is a supernatural being. do you think the devil rode Jesus up there in a horse?

another laughable example of atheist ‘logic’

right4life on May 3, 2008 at 12:04 PM

You have just proven why it is a waste of time to debate such issues with the “true believers” since at any instant they reserve the right to suspend the rules of cartesian logic, wave the magic wand, and invoke the supernatural powers of their imaginary gods. If you were a fundamentalist Hindu you would be defending that story of Hanuman physically carrying a mountain over to Shiva’s place.

Annar on May 3, 2008 at 12:22 PM

What the Hitler government envisioned for Germany was clearly set out in a thirty-point program for the ‘National Reich Church’ drawn up during the war by Rosenberg, an outspoken pagan…

“The National Reich Church of Germany categorically claims the exclusive right and the exclusive power to control all churches within the borders of the Reich: it declares these to be national churches of the German Reich.

“The National Church is determined to exterminate irrevocably…the strange and foreign Christian faiths imported into Germany in the ill-omened year 800…

“The National Church has no scribes, pastors, chaplains or priests, but National Reich orators are to speak in them.

“The National Church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and dissemination of the Bible in Germany…’”

“On the altars there must be nothing but ‘Mein Kampf’ (to the German nation and therefore to God the most sacred book) and to the left of the altar a sword.

“On the day of its foundation, the Christian Cross must be removed from all churches, cathedrals and chapels…and it must be superseded by the only unconquerable symbol, the swastika.”

(The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, by William L. Shirer, p. 240 in some editions, p. 332 in others. Chapter headed “Triumph and Consolidation”, subsection “The Persecution of the Christian Churches”)

right4life on May 3, 2008 at 12:22 PM

Squiggy
I’m reading all this and I don’t see people arguing about that. I keep seeing you claim they want that, but that’s not the same thing.

These people who support ID and CS are arguing the topic because they want it taught in schools. Steins movie is about just that. They want pseudoscience taught as a legitimate science.

Oh. XIAN. That’s totally different. It was a typo, mr. superiority.

LOL. Again, if I disagree with you, you think I am acting superior?

And you are lying.

My, my. Yet another xian who can read my mind and tell me that I am knowingly making false statements.

It most definitely IS meant as an insult.

Not from me. It is as I stated an abbreviation I uses, like xmas.

People who type 500 word posts don’t use ONE abbreviation.

I do when it suites me. So evidently you are wrong about that.

You’re under 30 aren’t you?

Would it matter? Odd how when you debate this topic, you get insults about not having an education or being young.

You have knowledge but no wisdom (and you don’t even know what wisdom is).

According to you, but I do not consider you a worthy
opinion. You assume or declare I am lying so easily.

Get someone mature to explain things to you.

And yet another age comment. Well, judging by your argument, such a person would not be you.

You cannot debate this topic rationally and have to go off on tangents about how you dislike my use of an abbreviation.

Perhaps you can illustrate some of this wisdom and maturity you speak of next time you post.

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 12:22 PM

While we destroyed the Centre Party, we have not only brought thousands of priests back into the Church, but to millions of respectable people we have restored their faith in their religion and in their priests. The union of the Evangelical Church in a single Church for the whole Reich, the Concordat with the Catholic Church, these are but milestones on the road which leads to the establishment of a useful relation and a useful co operation between the Reich and the two Confessions.

-Adolf Hitler, in his New Year Message on 1 Jan. 1934

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 12:23 PM

It would have been more to the point, more honest and more Christian, in past decades not to support those who intentionally destroyed healthy life than to rebel against those who have no other wish than to avoid disease. Moreover, a policy of laissez faire in this sphere is not only cruelty to the individual guiltless victims but also to the nation as a whole…. If the Churches were to declare themselves ready to take over the treatment and care of those suffering from hereditary diseases, we should be quite ready to refrain from sterilizing them.

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 30 Jan. 1934

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 12:24 PM

instant they reserve the right to suspend the rules of cartesian logic, wave the magic wand

oh you mean like evolutionists do with the magic wand of time? yeah right, but I don’t claim that satan is scientific…apparently you are…so how can you test him?

invoke the supernatural powers of their imaginary gods.

newsflash: God and Satan are supernatural. so it would be totally illogical to think of them as natural beings that are bound by the natural laws of this world. another example of atheist ‘logic’ (smirk)

right4life on May 3, 2008 at 12:25 PM

Squiggy
Oh, and Gene? About xmas, you don’t celebrate that do you? That would be hypocritical (get someone mature to define that word for you).

Sure I do. Why wouldn’t I? Especially since it was and for the majority still is a pagan ritual.

And again, that mature person would not be you. Pity you are unfamiliar with your own religious holidays.

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 12:25 PM

We have experienced a miracle, something unique, something the like of which there has hardly been in the history of the world. God first allowed our people to be victorious for four and a half years, then He abased us, laid upon us a period of shamelessness, but now after a struggle of fourteen years he has permitted us to bring that period to a close. It is a miracle which has been wrought upon the German people…. It shows us that the Almighty has not deserted our people, that He received it into favour at the moment when it rediscovered itself. And that our people shall never again lose itself, that must be our vow so long as we shall live and so long as the Lord gives us the strength to carry on the fight.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech to the “Old Guard” of the Party at Munich on 19 March, 1934

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 12:25 PM

Martin Bormann was faithful to Hitler till the end, sprinkling gasoline on the bodies after Hitler’s suicide. This true believer put it this way:

“National Socialist and Christian concepts are incompatible. The Christian Churches build upon the ignorance of men and strive to keep large portions of the people in ignorance because only in this way can the Christian Churches maintain their power. On the other hand, National Socialism is based on scientific foundations. Christianity’s immutable principles, which were laid down almost two thousand years ago, have increasingly stiffened into life-alien dogmas. National Socialism, however, if it wants to fulfill its task further, must always guide itself according to the newest data of scientific researches.

right4life on May 3, 2008 at 12:26 PM

Squiggy
Is this true? I don’t know, but so what? “In God we trust” is on every dollar. So by your logic, every American believes in God (especially you).

If Hitler was an atheist evolutionist as claimed then he would not has used such in his speeches or on the militaries uniforms.

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 12:27 PM

If Hitler was an atheist evolutionist as claimed then he would not has used such in his speeches or on the militaries uniforms.

newsflash: politicians will say ANYTHING to get power….duhhhhhh

right4life on May 3, 2008 at 12:28 PM

The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavour to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren ), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of to-day.

-Adolf Hitler, on 26 June 1934

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 12:32 PM

No, it is not we that have deserted Christianity, it is those who came before us who deserted Christianity. We have only carried through a clear division between politics which have to do with terrestrial things, and religion, which must concern itself with the celestial sphere. There has been no interference with the doctrine (Lehre ) of the Confessions or with their religious freedom (Bekenntnisfreiheit ), nor will there be any such interference. On the contrary the State protects religion, though always on the one condition that religion will not be used as a cover for political ends….

National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity…. For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life… These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles! And I believe that if we should fail to follow these principles then we should to be able to point to our successes, for the result of our political battle is surely not unblest by God.

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech at Koblenz, to the Germans of the Saar, 26 Aug. 1934

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 12:33 PM

newsflash: God and Satan are supernatural. so it would be totally illogical to think of them as natural beings that are bound by the natural laws of this world. another example of atheist ‘logic’ (smirk)

right4life on May 3, 2008 at 12:25 PM

I never said god and satan are natural beings although I do think the Abrahamic versions of these characters that you believe in are fictional characters created by human beings. If you wish to invoke the supernatural you’ll have to first prove scientifically that your particular god exists and it can indeed viloate natural law.

Annar on May 3, 2008 at 12:37 PM

I say that they can be solved; there is no problem that cannot be, but faith is necessary. Think of the faith I had to have eighteen years ago, a single man on a lonely path. Yet I have come to leadership of the German people….

Life is hard for many, but it is hardest if you are unhappy and have no faith. Have faith.

Nothing can make me change my own belief.

-Adolf Hitler, in Nuremberg, 12 Sept. 1936

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 12:39 PM

So when you challenge the pseudoscience of ID and CS, you get comment that you are uneducated, a liar (ad nausea), should be locked up, are too young or not wise or worse have been paid to post on this forum.

Ben Stein claims in his movie that criticism of evolution is silenced and that, at the very least, the conversation about what he see as the flaws of evolution need to be spoken about.

So, ID and Cs supporters want their untenable claims taught in schools and colleges alone side of tested and verifiable science.

Taking a look at this or any other forum discussing the pseudoscience of ID or CS, can you imagine the chaos in the classroom?

How about the resulting effects on science?

Squiggy . R4L and apacalyps, you can insult me and other all you like. You can pat yourself on the back for you mutual hatred (lock you up, name calling) of those who see ID and CS for the pseudoscience it is and you can be proud of your intellectually dishonest claims and maneuvering, but in the end, evolution is still supported by years of research and mountains of proof and data you simply choose to ignore.

It will be taught in schools and colleges while ID and CS are not. Those who choose to ignore or disbelieve it will be limited in jobs available to them in relation to research. And those who openly reject evolution, not to mention geology, medical research, astronomy and any science that disagrees with scripture will be more and more marginalized in society.

As it has been stated over and over, you are free to practice whatever faith you wish, but that faith and that religion will not and cannot be forced onto other or be allowed to affect science and medical research. Our secular society has served us well so far considering our advancements. I’m sure you disagree.

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 12:46 PM

Dear Sweet Jesus Darwin.

A 1000 comments. And not one of you actually has a clue.

Maybe you’ll get to the bottom of life, the universe, and everything, with another 1000 comments. Ready – set – go.

Professor Blather on May 3, 2008 at 12:48 PM

Hey, at least you got lots of good Hitler and Nazi comments in there. Awesome.

Professor Blather on May 3, 2008 at 12:49 PM

Professor Blather on May 3, 2008 at 12:49 PM

You don’t have to read it professor.

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 12:51 PM

Hitler was a Roman Catholic, he never renounced that faith and the Vatican never excommunicated him. Whether he actually believed can only be conjectured. Many of the Reich leaders were Catholic as was about a third of the German population, the other two thirds was Protestant.

In Yugoslavia, Hitler installed a Croatian, Ante Pavelic, a Catholic like himself who along with his collaboration with the Nazi Jew extermination problem took to eliminating those traitorous Orthodox Serbs.

Annar on May 3, 2008 at 12:52 PM

If we pursue this way, if we are decent, industrious, and honest, if we so loyally and truly fulfill our duty, then it is my conviction that in the future as in the past the Lord God will always help us. In the long run He never leaves decent folk in the lurch. Often He may test them, He may send trials upon them, but in the long run He always lets His sun shine upon them once more and at the end He gives them His blessing.

-Adolf Hitler, at the Harvest Thanksgiving Festival on the Buckeburg held on 3 Oct. 1937

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 12:54 PM

Ronsfi, Annar, Drew and others,

It was and still is worthwhile debating this issue, perhaps in a more civil forum next time.

I do feel sorry for the more level headed theists I know and I can see why they try to separate themselves from the likes of Hovind and his followers. Personal faith is just that.

And to all of the true believers who filled my spam box last night or this morning with such “loving” emails, I thank you too.

I always find it amusing that when I debate people who claim to follow the path of love, understanding and tolerance, that I receive a gaggle of emails telling me how I am dammed, of the torture their god will visit upon me and how they will pity me come judgment day. And the threats of violence to be visited upon me while I live are just inspiring.

But the really odd thing is the following hypocrisy. If children are innocent in the eyes of the xian god, then why do so many xians see fit to email me threats against mine?

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 1:03 PM

The National Socialist Movement has wrought this miracle. If Almighty God granted success to this work, then the Party was His instrument.

-Adolf Hitler, in his proclamation to the German People on 01 Jan. 1939

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 1:04 PM

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 1:03 PM

There is no debating the cultist mind. Every doubt is satanic temptation and must squashed. This a perfect forum for drawing them out and exposing their true nature. 100 posts of hateful invective and ending with a pose of loving care. People will make their own minds. I am not trying to convert anyone.

Things I have been called in these threads

Satanist
Racist
Pedophile
Necrophiliac
Stupid
Stupid again
Retarded
oh! and Stupid.

But they don’t hate me. No, they love me. With love like that, who needs hate.

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 1:12 PM

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 1:03 PM

I do appreciate your posts. Your willing to put more effort into it than I.

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 1:16 PM

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 1:12 PM

Should I save a spot in my jail cell for you then? (grin)

Have a good one.

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 1:16 PM

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 1:16 PM
I do appreciate your posts. Your willing to put more effort into it than I.

I like to debate, especially about such topics, but normally on more relevant forums. Don’t get me wrong. I like HotAir and really miss the old video podcasts, but the feed is on my top ten on my aggregator.

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 1:19 PM

Gene Splicer, ronsfi, Drew and others,

I have may friends of many faiths including followers of pagan religions like, Buddhism, Shintoism, Hinduism and Islam. All of these faiths have their lunatic fringes, the most dangerous being the Islamo-fascists, but also many intelligent thinking people who can distinguish between the ideas of faith and reason. Following the discussion on this thread I was really amazed by the contempt for reason and non-believers that has been exemplified in the majority of the posts.

Annar on May 3, 2008 at 1:21 PM

But they don’t hate me. No, they love me. With love like that, who needs hate.

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 1:12 PM

I think what they mean is Jesus loves you but they are praying so that he may change his mind.

Annar on May 3, 2008 at 1:26 PM

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 1:16 PM

I’m going down fighting! hehe.

Annar on May 3, 2008 at 1:21 PM

It is disturbing. The anti-scientific paranoia. I believe most people of faith recognize that if God created all then he created the laws that govern the all and can at least acknowledge that science is only seeking to understand it.

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 1:29 PM

Annar on May 3, 2008 at 1:26 PM

ROFLMAO! HA!

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 1:30 PM

Annar on May 3, 2008 at 1:21 PM
I have may friends of many faiths including followers of pagan religions like, Buddhism, Shintoism, Hinduism and Islam. All of these faiths have their lunatic fringes, the most dangerous being the Islamo-fascists, but also many intelligent thinking people who can distinguish between the ideas of faith and reason. Following the discussion on this thread I was really amazed by the contempt for reason and non-believers that has been exemplified in the majority of the posts.

I couldn’t have said it any better.

Gene Splicer on May 3, 2008 at 1:30 PM

Are all atheists as stupid as the ones exposing their low-teen IQS in this thread?

corona on May 3, 2008 at 1:35 PM

contempt for reason and non-believers that has been exemplified in the majority of the posts.

It’s mostly the same knuckleheads over and over.

You know what they say.

If you can’t bowl ‘em over with brilliance,
Baffle ‘em with bullshit.

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 1:37 PM

We are indeed perhaps better able than other generations to realize the full meaning of those pious words “What a change by the grace of God”.

Amongst the accusations which are directed against Germany in the so called democracies is the charge that the National Socialist State is hostile to religion. In answer to that charge I should like to make before the German people the following solemn declaration:

1. No one in Germany has in the past been persecuted because of his religious views (Einstellung), nor will anyone in the future be so persecuted…. The Churches are the greatest landed proprietors after the State… Further, the Church in the National Socialist State is in many ways favoured in regard to taxation, and for gifts, legacies, &c., it enjoys immunity from taxation.

It is therefore, to put mildly– effrontery when especially foreign politicians make bold to speak of hostility to religion in the Third Reich…. I would allow myself only one question: what contributions during the same period have France, England, or the United States made through the State from the public funds?

3. The National Socialist State has not closed a church, nor has it prevented the holding of a religious service, nor has it ever exercised any influence upon the form of a religious service. It has not exercised any pressure upon the doctrine nor on the profession of faith of any of the Confessions. In the National Socialist State anyone is free to seek his blessedness after his own fashion…. There are ten thousands and ten thousands of priests of all the Christian Confessions who perform their ecclesiastical duties just as well as or probably better than the political agitators without ever coming into conflict with the laws of the State…. This State has only once intervened in the internal regulation of the Churches, that is when I myself in 1933 endeavoured to unite the weak and divided Protestant Churches of the different States into one great and powerful Evangelical Church of the Reich. That attempt failed through the opposition of the bishops of some States; it was therefore abandoned. For it is in the last resort not our task to defend or even to strengthen the Evangelical Church through violence against its own representatives…. But on one point it is well that there should be no uncertainty: the German priest as servant of God we shall protect, the priest as political enemy of the German State we shall destroy.

-Adolf Hitler, a speech in the Reichstag on 30 Jan. 1939

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 1:42 PM

But they don’t hate me. No, they love me. With love like that, who needs hate.

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 1:12 PM

And I’ll call you adorable, and I really love you ronsfi, and I don’t care what you believe, or not.

Entelechy on May 3, 2008 at 1:42 PM

Entelechy on May 3, 2008 at 1:42 PM

Blush

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 1:45 PM

ADL Blasts Christian Supremacist TV Special & Book Blaming Darwin For Hitler

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/HolNa_52/4877_52.htm

ADL National Director Abraham H. Foxman said in a statement:”This is an outrageous and shoddy attempt by D. James Kennedy to trivialize the horrors of the Holocaust. Hitler did not need Darwin to devise his heinous plan to exterminate the Jewish people. Trivializing the Holocaust comes from either ignorance at best or, at worst, a mendacious attempt to score political points in the culture war on the backs of six million Jewish victims and others who died at the hands of the Nazis.

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 2:15 PM

Amen brother.

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 2:16 PM

So tell me ronsfi, what’s your point? Are you raising the old “Hitler was a Christian” lie again? I know that’s a popular theme among atheist but nothing could be further from the truth. But please allow me to digress for just a moment.

While the left constantly derides Christianity as intolerant, the opposite is true, Christianity is a wellspring of tolerance. American was indeed founded as a Christian nation and it still is a Christian nation. Every theism in the world can be found here and we all reside together in relative harmony. You can be an atheist, or any religion for that matter and live well in America. You don’t have to be concerned about a loud knock in the middle of the night and being imprisoned or killed for your particular beliefs.

That is not true where atheist are the majority and atheism has become the state’s religion. Where the state has become god, there is no room for competition. China is one example of this today, but there are many. As for the popular claim among atheist that Hitler and the Nazis were Christians, you only need to look to history to find this:

LIFE IN THE THIRD REICH: 1933-1937

Not many Germans lost much sleep over the arrests of a few thousand pastors and priests or over the quarreling of the various Protestant sects. And even fewer paused to reflect that under the leadership of Rosenberg, Bormann and Himmler, who were backed by Hitler, the Nazi regime intended eventually to destroy Christianity in Germany, if it could, and substitute the old paganism of the early tribal Germanic gods and the new paganism of the Nazi extremists. As Bormann, one of the men closest to Hitler, said publicly in 1941, ”National Socialism and Christianity are irreconcilable.”

What the Hitler government envisioned for Germany was clearly set out in a thirty-point program for the ”National Reich Church” drawn up during the war by Rosenberg, an outspoken pagan, who among his other offices held that of “the Fuehrer’s Delegate for the Entire Intellectual and Philosophical Education and Instruction for the National Socialist Party.” A few of its thirty articles convey the essentials:

1. The National Reich Church of Germany categorically claims the exclusive right and the exclusive power to control all churches within the borders of the Reich: it declares these to be national churches of the German Reich.

5. The National Church is determined to exterminate irrevocably. . . the strange and foreign Christian faiths imported into Germany in the ill-omened year.

7. The National Church has no scribes, pastors, chaplains or priests, but National Reich orators are to speak in them.

13. The National church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and dissemination of the Bible in Germany . . .

14. The National Church declares that to it, and therefore to the German nation, it has been decided that the Fuehrer’s Mein Kampf is the greatest of all documents. It . . . not only contains the greatest but it embodies the purest and truest ethics for the present and future life of our nation.

18. The National Church will clear away from its altars all crucifixes, Bibles and pictures of saints.

19. On the altars there must be nothing but Mein Kampf (to the German nation and therefore to God the most sacred book) and to the left of the altar a sword.

30. On the day of its foundation, the Christian Cross must be removed from all churches, cathedrals and chapels . . . and it must be superseded by the only unconquerable symbol, the swastika.

The Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich, Chapter 8, pages 212 – 213

by – William L. Shirer

Hitler was of course a notorious lier, history records Hitler stating emphatically time and time again that he only wanted peace. He said these types of things when it served his purpose.

So without regard to what Hitler may have said, his actions proved that he hated Christianity and did everything in his power to destroy it, as the excerpt above clearly shows. Many Christians in Germany died trying to stop the Nazis and many Christians gave shelter to the Jews to hide them from the Nazis at the risk of their own lives. And it was a predominately Christian allied force that destroyed the Nazis. Yet there are those who would insist that the Nazis were Christians, obviously, as ludicrous and ridiculous a statement as anyone can be made.

The left hates Christianity and there is nothing new about that, but for those who hate Christianity and want to destroy it, they are the ones like Hitler and they are the ones that share that express a goal in common with the Nazis.

Maxx on May 3, 2008 at 4:04 PM

Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.
- Mark Twain

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 4:11 PM

Providence has caused me to be Catholic, and I know therefore how to handle this Church.

-Adolf Hitler, reportedly to have said in Berlin in 1936 on the enmity of the Catholic Church to National Socialism

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 4:12 PM

In this hour I would ask of the Lord God only this: that, as in the past, so in the years to come He would give His blessing to our work and our action, to our judgement and our resolution, that He will safeguard us from all false pride and from all cowardly servility, that He may grant us to find the straight path which His Providence has ordained for the German people, and that He may ever give us the courage to do the right, never to falter, never to yield before any violence, before any danger…. I am convinced that men who are created by God should live in accordance with the will of the Almighty…. If Providence had not guided us I could often never have found these dizzy paths…. Thus it is that we National Socialists, too, have in the depths of our hearts our faith. We cannot do otherwise: no man can fashion world-history or the history of peoples unless upon his purpose and his powers there rests the blessings of this Providence.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Wurzburg on 27 June 1937

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 4:13 PM

The bomb which was planted by Colonel von Stauffenberg exploded two meters to my right. It seriously injured a number of my colleagues who are very dear to me; one has died. I myself am completely unhurt apart from a few minor skin abrasions, bruises and burns. I interpret this as confirmation that Providence wishes me to continue my life’s mission as I have in the past.

Few people can begin to imagine the fate which would have overtaken Germany had the assassination attempt succeeded. I myself thank Providence and my Creator not for preserving me – my life consists only of worry and work for my People – I thank him only for allowing me to continue to bear this burden of worry, and to carry on my work to the best of my ability.

Once again I take this opportunity, my old comrades in arms, to greet you, joyful that I have once again been spared a fate which, while it held no terror for me personally, would have had terrible consequences for the German People. I interpret this as a sign from Providence that I must continue my work, and therefore I shall continue it.

-Adolf Hitler, speaking about the attempt to kill him, in a radio broadcast on 20 July 1944

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 4:14 PM

Christian Nazis Photo evidence.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 4:21 PM

And it was a predominately Christian allied force that destroyed the Nazis. Yet there are those who would insist that the Nazis were Christians, obviously, as ludicrous and ridiculous a statement as anyone can be made.

Maxx on May 3, 2008 at 4:04 PM

Several good point regarding Nazi Germany. Not sure though that the make-up of the forces that ultimately defeated Hitler is meaningful. Certainly, Stalin was as important as anyone in destroying Hitler’s army and he was no friend of Christian religions.

dedalus on May 3, 2008 at 4:25 PM

“an admission that Nazism is somehow redeemable, but rather that it is that much closer to us than we dare allow ourselves to believe. The discovery that so many Nazis considered them selves or their movement to be Christian makes us similarly uncomfortable. But the very unpleasantness of this fact makes it all the more important to look it squarely in the face.”

Steigmann-Gall, The Holy Reich

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 4:26 PM

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 4:21 PM

You don’t need to re-post all of that, I’ve already read it. Now explain to me if Hitler was a Christian, why he did all in his power to destroy the Christian church?

Maxx on May 3, 2008 at 4:26 PM

Several good point regarding Nazi Germany. Not sure though that the make-up of the forces that ultimately defeated Hitler is meaningful.

dedalus on May 3, 2008 at 4:25 PM

But certainly worth a mention. And for a guy that was always espousing his connection to God, as ronsfi has provided, Hitler surely didn’t have a very good ending.

Maxx on May 3, 2008 at 4:36 PM

But certainly worth a mention. And for a guy that was always espousing his connection to God, as ronsfi has provided, Hitler surely didn’t have a very good ending.

Maxx on May 3, 2008 at 4:36 PM

Hitler didn’t have a very good ending and things started to go badly for him consistently beginning in 1940. I’m sure God wouldn’t have answered Hitler’s calls even if he had tried, but over the centuries European battlefield have been littered with soldiers on both sides of the fight who believed in God and who prayed with their commanders that victory would be theirs. Usually, one side was wrong.

dedalus on May 3, 2008 at 4:46 PM

Hitler didn’t have a very good ending and things started to go badly for him consistently beginning in 1940. I’m sure God wouldn’t have answered Hitler’s calls even if he had tried, but over the centuries European battlefield have been littered with soldiers on both sides of the fight who believed in God and who prayed with their commanders that victory would be theirs. Usually, one side was wrong.

dedalus on May 3, 2008 at 4:46 PM

Agree. And which God and is He with you in your endeavor also make all the difference. Numbers tells us that even the Israelites failed when God was not with them.

Numbers 14
44. But the people defiantly pushed ahead toward the hill country, even though neither Moses nor the Ark of the Lord’s Covenant left the camp. 45. Then the Amalekites and the Canaanites who lived in those hills came down and attacked them and chased them back as far as Hormah.

Maxx on May 3, 2008 at 4:56 PM

9000 year old tree

Give up your silly faith in extra-dimensional wizards. Thanks for clogging another thread with your hateful rantings.

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 3:49 AM

You are such a sad little hateful man, Ronsfi. You keep posting this as evidence for evolution. They calculated the age of that tree using carbon dating which is not reliable. The unreliability of Carbon 14 dating:

“If the C14 date supports our theories, we put it in the main text. If it does not entirely contradict them, we put it in a footnote. And if it’s completely ‘out of date’, we just drop it.” T. Save-Soderbergh and I.U. Olsson, Institute of Physics respectively, Sweden

Carbon dating is based on alot of assumptions. We can tell how much C-14 is in an object today, and we know how fast it decomposes today, but that’s all we know. After that it’s based on assumptions. Here’s a brief video explanation (stick with it, it gets into some of the examples I list below). As a result there have been some pretty wild dates by carbon dating. For an example of wacky carbon dating rates:

“A freshly killed seal was carbon dated as having died 1300 years ago!” Antarctic Journal vol. 6, Sept-Oct. 1971, p. 211

Re-read that. They just killed it.

“Shells from living snails were carbon dated as being 27,000 years old.” Science vol. 224, 1984, pp.58-61

It’s still alive!

“One part of the Vollosovitch mammoth was carbon dated at 29,500 years and another part at 44,000.” Troy L. Pewe, “Quaternary Strigraphic Nomencature in Uniglaciated Central Alaska,” Geologic Survey Professional Paper 832 (U.S. Gov. Printing Office, 1975) p. 30

Uh, when did that Mammoth die?

Moon rocks brought back in 1969, were given to many different laboratories to be dated. One rock was divided into 6 pieces and dated many times. The ages ranged from 2.5 billion to 4.6 billion years. That’s an amazing error rate, from the same rock. James P. Dawson, who was Chief of Engineering and Operations for the Lunar and Earth Science Division at the Manned Spacecraft Center NASA in Houston, who worked on the rock samples. He said they found ages from 10,000 years to several billion years in the same rock.

Believe me, if someone walks up to you and says, “carbon dating proves the earth is millions of years old, or it is a good system for measuring age”, rest assured they DO NOT know what they’re talking about. Wild dates are obtained. Dates that don’t fit evolution theory are rejected and not published. It is based on the assumptions.

Watch: This is excellent proof the dinosaurs did not live millions of years ago!

apacalyps on May 3, 2008 at 4:59 PM

Maxx on May 3, 2008 at 4:56 PM

Reminded of the joke where a boxer asks his priest to say a prayer for him before his big fight. The priest responds: “Of course, but it’d sure help if you could learn to punch”.

dedalus on May 3, 2008 at 5:02 PM

…and God help this “faithless and perverse” generation.

labrat on May 3, 2008 at 4:45 AM

Amen (Acts 26:18).

apacalyps on May 3, 2008 at 5:05 PM

2.5 billion to 4.6 billion

Your right that’s really close to 6000 years you fine loving jolly old Christian.

Commence with the Bullshit storm. I am off to a bar-b-que. All atheists. Were having roast baby!

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 5:13 PM

Before I run chuckles. Explain this one.

An understanding of long-term climate changes, with some surprises, is emerging from analysis of ice core samples.

DEBORAH SCHOEN
In 1998, the Russian-French-American ice-coring team at the Vostok station in eastern Antarctica reached a depth of 3623 m in the ice. The technical feat of extracting ancient ice samples from the coldest spot in the world has been, in itself, an impressive accomplishment, providing a continuous ice core record spanning 420,000 years.

http://pubs.acs.org/hotartcl/est/99/apr/learn.html

Kiss Kiss Hug Hug!

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 5:21 PM

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 5:21 PM

Pretty easy to explain ronsfi, all “Big Science” dating methods are junk-science. Tree rings are pretty accurate but it only works on trees. Science just hasn’t found a way to accurately date rocks.

Maxx on May 3, 2008 at 5:33 PM

VERY IMPORTANT: READ

How is it illogical? Scientists who do not believe in common descent (evolution) are rejected from research. So intelligent people who have a lot to offer the scientific community are unable to do so.

Rose on May 2, 2008 at 1:50 PM

== Gene Splicer replies:

Some form that have at it base the fact of common descent (evolution), yes. What is so difficult about that concept? Would you not demand the rejection of a medical student who refused to believe in germs causing infections so he or she refuses to wash their hands? If they are ignorant or blind enough or reject fundamental facts of biology (ie, evolutionary “facts”), then yes they will not be able to pursue that career. (emphasis added)

Gene Splicer on May 2, 2008 at 2:00 PM

Can you believe the arrogance of this guy? This is the exact point Ben Stein’s makes in his movie “Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed”. Rose asked, and Gene came right out and said it. If you do not accept the evolution theory you should not be allowed to pursue a career in certain areas of science. Proof once again the only way the evolutionists will get what they want is to take away that free choice.

Folks, here is just a tiny sampling of the many famous scientists who were also strong Christians and Bible believers, who rejected the theory of evolution.

Physical Astronomy – Johann Kepler (1571-1630)
Electric Generator – Michael Faraday (1791-1867)
Chemistry – Robert Boyle (1627-1691)
Law of gravity – Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
Pasteurization – Louis Pasteur (1822-1895)
Telegraph – Samuel F. B. Morse (1791-1872)
Antiseptic Surgery – Joseph Lister (1827-1912)
Electric Motor – Joseph Henry (1797-1878)
Thermodynamics – Lord Kelvin (1824-1907)
Scientific Method – Francis Bacon (1561-1626)
Hydrostatics – Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Systematic Biology – Carolus Linnaeus (1707-1778)

It was these men (Newton, Pasteur, Linnaeus, Faraday, Pascal, Lord Kelvin, Maxwell, Kepler, etc.) whose research led to the very laws and concepts of science which brought about our modern scientific age. The scientists of the today are dwarfed in comparison to these intellectual giants of the past.

apacalyps on May 3, 2008 at 5:58 PM

In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison.

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922

ronsfi on May 3, 2008 at 11:57 AM

This isn’t even funny. To insinuate Adolf Hitler was a true born again Bible-believing Christian (he was not) and to then take advantage of his anti-semitic philosophy to insult real Christians, I believe crosses the line. You are using bold-faced lies to distort the facts of what happened in WW2, and the real reason 6 million Jewish people were slaughtered by the Nazis. As the one race above all others, Hitler believed that the Aryans evolutionary superiority gave them not only the right, but the duty to subjugate all other peoples. Hitler believed humans were animals to whom the genetics laws, learned from livestock breeding, could be applied. Ronsfi, I think you owe everyone here an apology. I consider you, no better than Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who describes the Nazi Holocaust of European Jewry as a “myth”. You are an offense. I’ll just stop writing right now.

apacalyps on May 3, 2008 at 6:29 PM

ROFL!!!!! Alpacalips you have people on your list that LIVED rejected evolution and DIED before Darwin was even born. Now that is impressive.

frreal on May 3, 2008 at 6:30 PM

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