Gas tax follies continue
posted at 8:27 am on April 29, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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Truckers rolled into Washington DC to protest the price of a fill-up, while Barack Obama continued to oppose both Hillary Clinton and John McCain on a gas-tax “holiday”. Obama’s opposition to the gas-tax holiday has allowed Hillary to argue that Obama is an out-of-touch elitist who doesn’t understand the needs of the common American. Yet her own plan would merely replace that tax with another, more onerous tax, neither of which addresses the root problem of high gas prices (via Memeorandum):
As angry truckers encircled the Capitol in a horn-blaring caravan and consumers across the country agonized over $60 fill-ups, the issue of high fuel prices flared on the campaign trail on Monday, sharply dividing the two Democratic candidates.
Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton lined up with Senator John McCain, the presumptive Republican nominee for president, in endorsing a plan to suspend the federal excise tax on gasoline, 18.4 cents a gallon, for the summer travel season. But Senator Barack Obama, Mrs. Clinton’s Democratic rival, spoke out firmly against the proposal, saying it would save consumers little and do nothing to curtail oil consumption and imports.
While Mr. Obama’s view is shared by environmentalists and many independent energy analysts, his position allowed Mrs. Clinton to draw a contrast with her opponent in appealing to the hard-hit middle-class families and older Americans who have proven to be the bedrock of her support. She has accused Mr. Obama of being out of touch with ordinary Americans who are struggling to meet their mortgages and gas up their cars and trucks.
Mrs. Clinton said at a rally on Monday morning in Graham, N.C., that she would introduce legislation to impose a windfall-profits tax on oil companies and use the revenue to suspend the gasoline tax temporarily.
Windfall-profits tax? The oil industry has a pre-tax profit margin less than half of that of the computer industry. They made $40 billion in profits on ~$220 billion in sales, which isn’t exactly a runaway model for investors. The company for which I worked did better than ExxonMobil’s 18.6% margin in three of the last four years I worked there. Microsoft performed more than twice as well. “Windfall profits” needs a lot more definition than just gross numbers — especially to the massive amounts of investors in oil companies, including most if not all retirement accounts which rely on growth.
Hillary’s plan is nothing more than a sleight of hand. She wants to replace one tax with another, and pretend it won’t impact consumers at the pumps. The windfall-profits tax hits consumers in two ways: it forces the oil companies to pass that cost along to the consumers by raising the prices, and it cuts into investments in new oil fields and increased production. The money has to come from somewhere, and it won’t just fall out of the sky. Does anyone in their right mind really believe that hiking the tax burden on oil companies will result in lower prices?
Obama has one part of this right — the tax holiday will be essentially meaningless. It will save drivers a pittance, perhaps as much as $30 for a family, and somewhat more for truckers. It also solves nothing. If Obama opposed Hillary’s windfall-profits tax, he might even make sense … but he has his own plans for hiking taxes on oil companies. He won’t even bother with the tax holiday that would give momentary relief before distorting the market with his own schemes.
In any market, price reductions come from three mechanisms:
- Increased supply
- Cost reductions on production
- Lower demand
Both Hillary and Obama offer nothing that will lower prices, and in fact they propose throwing gasoline on the fire. In order to lower prices, we need to do some of all of the three above. Increasing supply makes the most long-term sense. We need to start tapping into our domestic supply on a large-scale basis, which would protect Americans from the market manipulations of foreign governments. We also need to eliminate regional mixtures and have all refineries producing the same product, and we need more refineries on line so we can stop importing 20% of the product at the pump from overseas.
Until then, a gas-tax holiday is nothing more than a pander, and the tax policies of the Democrats portend disaster for Americans looking for common sense relief at the pumps.
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More importantly, have you seen the price of GUNS lately!?
kirkill on April 29, 2008 at 1:18 PM
No, I don’t. I tell you what – I won’t tell you or him how to do his job, or get to his job, if you don’t tell us how to do ours.
Deal?
Buy Danish on April 29, 2008 at 1:19 PM
Reason for increase gas prices:
Decrease supply – not really
Increased demand – not really
DEVALUATION OF OUR CURRENCY – OH YEAH!
As the dollar falls, the “price” increases. Anyone bother to look into George Soros or Warren Buffet’s holdings recently? Isn’t this kind of what Soros did to the UK back in ‘92?
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on April 29, 2008 at 1:19 PM
Selective analysis.
Romeo13, are you willing to go on the record as stating that American is unable to function on less than 90% of our current consumption of OIL?
blink on April 29, 2008 at 1:20 PM
I agree. The value of the dollar sucking, is NOT helping however people should slow down a bit and buy less gas for a while to help.
tx2654 on April 29, 2008 at 1:21 PM
There is no short term solution. Get used to it.
Unless, of course, the Chinese economy implodes, causing demand for oil to crater. But then, if the Chinese economy implodes, all the companies that make the stuff that we import will go out of business, causing the price for those goods to skyrocket and give everyone something else to whine about. And bring the “let’s tar-and-feather the speculators” crowd back out in full force.
Leonidas Hoplite on April 29, 2008 at 1:21 PM
That’s a nice non-sequitor. You can’t refute the point so you attack all the stupid people who stayed during Katrina 2.5 years ago. That was their lifestyle choice just as yours involves long commute times.
I love it! Nevermind personal initiative or common sense ideas like moving closer to the workplace, carpooling, or mass transit- it’s all the fault of Congress! Must be, right, since somebody has to take the blame for you and your gas hog lifestyle!
In other words, more oil and nothing to help develop alternative fuel sources. That might be part of the short-term plan but not a long-term solution.
How is suggesting you should live closer to work “micromanagement?” How is it idiotic to point out that if you drive less you save gas? You’ve got a real chip on your shoulder. That much comes through even without all the irrational hatred of people in New Orleans.
You can live your life any way you want but don’t go blaming others for the choices you made and get some sense of balance about New Orleans. You’d be the first in line demanding Federal assistance if your city utterly devastated by a storm. Do you realize there are people down here still living in FEMA trailers over two years after the storm? Many of them are in this situation for no fault of their own- unlike your lifestyle choices. But, for some reason, in your world they need to shut up and do nothing but express undying gratitude to “taxpayers” for helping them recover.
highhopes on April 29, 2008 at 1:26 PM
No, but they could pass an energy policy that includes:
DRILLING FOR OIL, (INCLUDING ANWAR)
BUILDING REFINERIES (in other words, getting rid of the crappy regulations that are preventing it)
CONSTRUCTION OF NUCLEAR PLANTS
CONSTRUCTION OF WIND MILLS IN TEDDY K’S FRONT YARD !
stenwin77 on April 29, 2008 at 1:27 PM
Ah, the days of Jimmah Carter.
stenwin77 on April 29, 2008 at 1:31 PM
Solution to the gas folley:
1. Expand drilling and mining in our lands. This includes ANWR, Great Lakes, oil shale, Gulf of Mexico, coasts of California and Florida. The second we actually get serious (or pose a real threat) about increasing the amount of oil obtained domestically the price will fall. The desert dictators will increase supply or drop prices considerably. They know they will ultimately lose. Competition! Gotta love it.
2. Expand REFINING! We can buy all the oil we want but the limiting factor is refining capacity. More refining = more supply = lower prices
3. Expand nuclear energy. We have the technology…..and it’s safe as hell, too!
4. Utilize renewable (no carbon) sources. There’s lots of windmills to be built. Contrary to what you have heard, the wind never stops blowing….especially out of Washington. Why won’t Uncle Teddy (who is soooo concerned about the environment) let us build them? Oh that’s right. It’ll obstruct his view of the hahbah.
Now, don’t hate me because I’m beautiful, but…..I can see this one coming. I shudder to think that this is a possible excuse.
5. Enact more agreements to complete the SPP (formation of Mex-Ameri-da). The majority of our oil comes from Canada and Mexico. Forming an energy “partnership” aka Mex-Ameri-da would lower costs allowing the nations (formerly sovereign states) to regulate their own energy policy by way of shared resources. I think it’s entirely possible.
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on April 29, 2008 at 1:32 PM
I’m obviously not fast enough at typing.
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on April 29, 2008 at 1:33 PM
And no subsequent administration has done anything to correct the problem, including GWB.
stenwin77 on April 29, 2008 at 1:34 PM
True. The liberals need to hang to some part of the economy. It’s their only way of subduing the population so they can usher their socialist agenda.
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on April 29, 2008 at 1:39 PM
Do you have the first clue about how the economy works, or do you just prefer to blame the American people for problems that were caused by Bill Clinton and the Democrat Party?
People don’t commute long hours out of laziness or stupidity, they do it out of necessity.
Buy Danish on April 29, 2008 at 1:40 PM
I’d say it’s his right to do that.
Pretty soon, we’ll start legislating who rides with whom.
Our Government has failed us (Hillary, Obama and McCain have all been part of the problem). They’ve seen this energy train wreck approaching and they have done nothing.
stenwin77 on April 29, 2008 at 1:45 PM
Wow! I don’t think I’ve ever seen so many fuel, energy, and economy experts in one place before!
Impressive!
Rod on April 29, 2008 at 1:49 PM
no argument from me.
right2bright on April 29, 2008 at 1:49 PM
I wouldn’t call us all experts. We’re concerned citizens that have risen above government education to be able to think on our own. We are able to look at facts to draw up our own well-reasoned opinions.
I’m very thankful for HA. Otherwise, I’d be screaming in a closet right now.
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on April 29, 2008 at 1:54 PM
This coming from an individual that thinks New Orleaneans are still living in FEMA trailers because they are lazy and stupid is advised not to get into discussions about doing what is necessary.
highhopes on April 29, 2008 at 1:55 PM
Unfortunately the experts are far outnumbered by people with the mentality of a commissar.
Buy Danish on April 29, 2008 at 1:55 PM
sorry, that was a cut and paste from an email I sent to OReiley, as I stated in the origional post… wasn’t pointed at you, but at his 10% solution.
It just hit me as well, that 30% of your 2.6% is pretty darn close to my .0083…. I bet the sites you quoted are looking at AMERICAN consumption, not worldwide consumption.
And I will go “on the record” and say that a 10% decrease in the American Publics driving habits will NOT significantly lower WORLDWIDE oil prices…
Even a 50% decrease in oil used by American drivers would only decrease worldwide consumption by a bit more than 4%…
World population growth is currently about 1.1% according to the UN (US is about .9%) per year… so worldwide we would gain about a 4 year slight reprieve IF nothing bad happened to any of the oil producing areas of the world, or if OPEC did not decide to lower production…
We need to both conserve, and drill…
One question though that just hit me… we look at the world wide price on the futures market… but a lot of companies don’t use that market… they have their own wells, refineries, and gas stations… why are they jacking consumer prices up so much?
Romeo13 on April 29, 2008 at 1:56 PM
Tax takers vs. take payers. Which side are you on?
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on April 29, 2008 at 1:57 PM
Collusion…..and because they can.
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on April 29, 2008 at 2:00 PM
I’m not the one who is telling other people how to lead their lives- you are. I was merely pointing out the irony of a NOLA resident having the unmitigated gall to lecture others about initiative and moving.
But hey, since you are filled with advice, maybe you can advise me where to find a buyer for my house in the middle of a subprime mortgage crisis.
Buy Danish on April 29, 2008 at 2:03 PM
Agreed stenway77…the left and our RINO’s are 100% responsible for the price of gas and energy. The lefts throwaway line (for idiots) about the war, is simply a diversion from the real issue, liberal Luddites and their desire that we return to the glories of the middle ages.
JIMV on April 29, 2008 at 2:06 PM
The answer is yes, we cannot function at the rate we are…the easy way is to say “just cut back”, but the fact is some can’t. You may live 60 miles from your work place, and no logical way of carpooling.
We have the lowest and most efficient shipping methods in the world, start cutting back and you will see horrendous effects on shipping schedules, produce not being shipped on time, inventories affected. While trying to grow the economy, you want to reduce it. More oil, more refining, will create a surge in the economy, mandated cut backs (just look at Carter) creates economic chaos.
Let me guess blink, you never sat in a gas line with odd license plates being filled up one day, and even license plates on the other days. Live through that for a few months and try to make a living. Or ask the stupid liberal senator Kennedy, who helped push the “luxury” tax on boats and yachts, ask him if he would do that again after destroying a whole industry because he felt “people could cut back, and if not they will pay extra”.
Blink, how about your dad being laid off because the shipping firm is cutting back, are you ready to pay his mortgage?
right2bright on April 29, 2008 at 2:06 PM
When will the Federal government and Congress learn to cut their demands for taxpayer dollars by 10% across the board?
Buy Danish on April 29, 2008 at 2:12 PM
Oh come on wussie…what is a 90 mile bike ride in winter? Why our friends on the left have a solution to everything, as long as their elites arenot effected.
JIMV on April 29, 2008 at 2:13 PM
Both ideas are as useful as stacking the deck chairs on the Titanic.
America needs to get its energy shit together.
Dave Rywall on April 29, 2008 at 2:14 PM
Nah, if you emulate Gore they’ll have a private jet to take them to work… then pay themselves for Carbon Offsets!
Romeo13 on April 29, 2008 at 2:16 PM
And just imagine how much more we could drop the price if we just got rid of the 30-50 cent federal and state tax burden …why we could get gas back to $250 if we simply stopped government greed, government interference on drilling and refining, and let business get back to business.
JIMV on April 29, 2008 at 2:23 PM
The US needs to lower the gas tax. The Federal government is making more on gas then the oil companies that produce it.
jdun on April 29, 2008 at 2:32 PM
What the US needs, the US is presently receiving. Rough economic justice from the barrel of crude.
Domestic drilling won’t work because OPEC countries can drop the bottom out and crush competition if it gets serious. Then overnight the US is at a huge economic disadvantage with everyone else buying the high quality stuff cheap. The only way to combat this is to either break shit in the ME so they are perpetually in rebuilding mode (think of the price of oil during the IRan Iraq war with the quota cheating going on) or by taking down one of the countries over there with huge reserves. We can’t compete with our domestic stuff. Well maybe today with the price through roof but the OPECKERS can drop it like a rock if need be.
pc on April 29, 2008 at 2:37 PM
Yes, lets have the US population suffer for their shortsighted Leaders… after all, in a Democracy we so totaly control what they do…
Whats Congress’s approval rating again???
Romeo13 on April 29, 2008 at 2:45 PM
We are Charlie Brown and OPEC is Nancy. Oil is the football. She’s a you know what but you’re not supposed to hit girls.
pc on April 29, 2008 at 2:48 PM
Also Romeo I was being a little facitious in giving the two choices. We are actively pursuing choice 2. We took down the country with huge reserves that can be exploited at bottom dollar cost wise. The stuff bubbles up to the surface of the desert there. It’s call quicksand. Doesn’t get any easier to tap than that. We did what we had to do for economic survival.
As a percentage of your take home pay it’s not where it was in the 70’s yet. So we have a little more time to bring Iraq on fulltilt. And they will cheat. Or we will leave them to get their frigging heads severed.
pc on April 29, 2008 at 2:53 PM
Same places you always find a buyer. When you get an offer just make sure it is someone who can actually afford the home instead of one of the idiots who bought more home than they could afford and are now demanding the taxpayers pick up the tab for their greed and stupidity- or is living beyond one’s means a “necessity” in your world too?
highhopes on April 29, 2008 at 2:54 PM
Exactly….Thereby lowering the prices for everyone. The more the US invests in its own economy, the less we invest in the economies of Saudi Arabia, Iran, Venezuela, and China. If the price of crude bottomed out and ExxonMobile kept the price of gas at $3.50, the government would be all over their ass for price-fixing.
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on April 29, 2008 at 2:58 PM
The thing we really should be doing is getting contracts with Iraqis to help repay the debt we have incurred. Somehow, I don’t think you’ll hear a liberal scream “Oil for Liberation/Reconstruction Costs!” That’s not in their vernacular.
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on April 29, 2008 at 3:01 PM
Dr.,
You can’t make people lose money (unless you’re running a socialist gulag). What happens to the domesic people when the price collapses? Go ahead and throw your money at it today. Looks hot. Today. Now do you get it? It takes coercion to make people walk the plank. I lived the early 80’s around Houston and the panhandle.
pc on April 29, 2008 at 3:04 PM
I don’t think I made my point. We aren’t drilling domestically because the oil companies get more money drilling over there. And they stand to lose their butts doing it here for the reasons expounded upon.
Besides, if you listen to Simmons and Associates the oil companies are in stealth divestiture right now. They see the handwriting on the wall at present consumption levels. Going to get too expensive, economically, socially, militarily, political to go after whats left in the not too distant future. And you need petrochemicals to keep the green revolution going. We are holding onto our reserves until it gets really valuable if we are smart. Countries without petrochemicals may some day starve.
pc on April 29, 2008 at 3:09 PM
Hmmm… just crunched some numbers from the links I provided earlier…
Looks like we now use 20,802.090 barrels per day (2005 numbers, last I’ve got).
We produce 5,263,000 per day, so we import 74.7% of the oil we use….
If we had stayed at 1970 levels, we would produce about 9,960,000 per day and so would import about 53% of oil used… difference of about 4,697,000 per day.
Times 365 day… 1,71,4405,000 barrels per year…
At 100 a barrel… 171,440,500,000 extra to the trade deficit… vice if we’d just kept our production at 1970 levels…
You remember… 1970? When the Enviros started to get real power to stop development?
Romeo13 on April 29, 2008 at 3:09 PM
Comments by Ed Wallace in his Business Week articles are worth noting here on gasoline prices, at http://www.insideautomotive.com/
Wallace is a sharp guy that believes the speculators (and gov. restrictions) are the main reasons for the $$$ at the pump.
- ricer1
ricer1 on April 29, 2008 at 3:13 PM
Like my first question to you earlier today, that was a rhetorical question, but being the dolt that you are, you attempted to answer it.
I am fully cognizant of the state of the housing market. Indeed, I actually have a lot of experience with buying and selling homes since we have moved 3 times in 10 years… for job changes.
That fact may provide a hint why I am repelled by micromanaging marxists like you who make idiotic assumptions and lecture productive citizens on how we should conduct our lives only to turn around and call us “gas hogs”, because we don’t follow your totalitarian dictates.
Buy Danish on April 29, 2008 at 3:14 PM
Strawman. Why would I defend them? I’m not in a court of law. Commoditiy prices are what they are.
I was pointing out facts regarding the increase in price for many commodities. I used Gold as an example, and the main reason Gold has gone up is the falling dollar and the recent volatility in the stock market — which causes a flight to quality.
The price of commodities, in general, are set by current and perceived future demand. Now, these prices can be inflated to a degree as well when there is instability in the securities market, a sagging U.S. dollar, and when there is a supply disruption for a particular commodity.
eanax on April 29, 2008 at 3:16 PM
Really, the USA has more known energy reserves than any where in the world. It can be produced far cheaper than importing it from the Middle East or elsewhere.
The last time domestic oil production was allowed by the Department of Energy and Congress, the price of oil dropped to sub $8.00 a barrel and bankrupted many oil companies.
In the North Slope of Alaska(known reserves in the ground), there is more oil than in all of Saudi Arabia but the US Congress and DOE have capped the wells.
ScottyDog on April 29, 2008 at 3:25 PM
Wrong. When there are ACTUAL disruptions in the supply — like what is happening in Nigeria currently — the price of oil goes up.
eanax on April 29, 2008 at 3:25 PM
If the goverment waives their gas tax for a while, why does anyone think that the price of gas at the pump will change at all?
Also, with respect to “gouging” or “fixing” accusations – is anyone actually claiming that the oil (and derivatives) does not belong to these companies? That it isn’t their private property?
They can charge whatever they like for their property. You have no right to their products.
Stop mobbing together to brutally legitimise socialist theft.
LimeyGeek on April 29, 2008 at 3:25 PM
I wonder if the truckers could form an oil-drilling co-op? Maybe we consumers should form one@!
stenwin77 on April 29, 2008 at 3:37 PM
You’re correct stenwin77. That was his right. It’s also his right to pay twenty dollars a gallon for gas should the price of crude keep rising. Obviously you missed my point. My statement wasn’t about rights. I’ll leave that to the Political Science Professors (you included) that seem to dominate hotair.com. My statement was about the price of crude in general and gasoline specifically. And why it costs what it costs.
greasywrench on April 29, 2008 at 3:49 PM
highhopes on April 29, 2008 at 2:54 PM
What planet do you live on? Do you actually have a job, a family and own a house, because it sounds as though you have all the answers but have never had to actually act on them! In a perfect world all your suggestions would work, unfortunately we don’t live in a perfect world and perhaps you haven’t heard about the downturn in manufacturing jobs in some states where people have to take jobs where they can get them and then are stuck with having to drive gonzo miles to work because that’s the only job they can find and they can’t sell their house because the housing market in their area is so depressed, no one is buying or able to buy. Have you heard about Michigan, 7.5% unemployment and high taxes. Maybe you can come and fix it all for us. Oh that’s right, you would have to commute!
flytier on April 29, 2008 at 3:53 PM
Actualy, on domestic oil they DON’T own the land, they lease the Rights to drill from the US Government, who is by far the largest land owner in the US.
This is actualy one reason that a lot of countries have nationalized oil companies, as the Oil is actualy pumped from government land.
To me, this is one of the weirdest things about the recent price spike. Cost of extracting and producing oil has NOT increased, and yet the Prices of oil has more than doubled in the past few years… where is all that money going? (talking US produced oil here…).
Hmmm.. we use about 7,592,730,000 barrels a year… a $5 increase in just domestic production would mean a 38 billion in profit… at $50 incrase? 380 BILLION!
BP and Shell combined just announced a 17 Billion profit for this quarter… Where all the dam money?
Romeo13 on April 29, 2008 at 3:54 PM
Gee all that moving and yet you still demand a lifestyle that involves commuting long distances. I guess you haven’t learned a thing with all those job changes.
I give up. There is no point in arguing with fools like you when you start making comments like “meddling marxists.” I’m really really sorry that you resent it everytime you’ve had to move and feel the need to take it out on others. I moved every two to three years in the military for twenty years so I DO have some sense of what I’m talking about. There may be compelling reasons why you choose to live the lifestyle you do but it is more than a little absurd to say I am making “totalitarian dictates” because my values, priorities, and needs result in a different lifestyle than your own. If anything, you’ve demanded that we all live exactly like you do.
highhopes on April 29, 2008 at 4:01 PM
Remember, folks, as of January 2008, 47 cents (average) of the price you pay at the pump goes to the Feds and the State in which you reside…
http://www.api.org/statistics/fueltaxes/upload/January_2008_gasoline_and_diesel_summary_pages-2.pdf
eanax on April 29, 2008 at 4:04 PM
All of this over 18.4 cents per gallon? That’s how much gas has gone up in my town over the past two weeks? This is nothing more than a waste of time, a token offering to Joe and Sally Sixpack.
What the hell will it take to convice the oil companies to build more refineries? What will it take to convice liberals (and McCain) that drilling above the arctic circle in ANWR is worth the effort? Stuff like this makes me crazy!
cannonball on April 29, 2008 at 4:08 PM
Before coming to post-Katrina New Orleans, I spent three years in Western Michigan where I still own a home and pay a lot of taxes since I can’t claim the homestead exemption. Your scenario about unemployed being stuck is only half true. When the Electrolux plant closed down, there were a lot of workers who refused, repeat refused, to relocate away from Greenville. Many also had no interest in re-training for something more marketable than manufacturing either. The point is that you can’t “fix” a problem if the individuals involved are unwilling to change.
highhopes on April 29, 2008 at 4:10 PM
And to think that less than four years ago when I was driving 100 miles a day I was complaining that gas was at the outrageous price of $1.75. Gas has DOUBLED since then.
You know what hasn’t doubled since then? My income.
cannonball on April 29, 2008 at 4:10 PM
Unless I missed a post somewhere, I didn’t see you give one opinion about why crude costs what it costs. What I saw is a lot of opinions about how we should drive small cars, and an anecdotal comment about how you you were shocked to observe moms going to the dentist in their great big SUVS.
Buy Danish on April 29, 2008 at 4:11 PM
I don’t care if the tax holiday is a short-term fix or not. I’m in no way, shape, or form an expert on economics, so I’m looking at this from uneducated eyes. My husband in stationed in Maryland (Ft. Meade). The kids and I live in Virginia Beach. The distance is about 160 miles, depending on route. Now, we’re down here trying to sell our house in a pretty inactive market (even with all the military). It seems that more military members are renting instead of buying this year, which makes perfect sense. Unfortunately, this does not bode well for us. Look, my kids are young (5 and almost 3), and my husband is close enough to travel home on the weekends. But the gas prices are killing us. I have a Passat, which gets great gas milage, but it still costs me $50 to fill it. My husband has a small pickup truck – his gas is about $10-$15 more. We have no room for a new vehicle payment (his is paid off). I’m staying at home with the kids to save money, and we’re not moving any time soon. We are not living out of our means at all – small townhouse, one car payment, shop at commissary, etc. So, we have three choices: my husband can come down every weekend (schedule permitting, current plan), less often (maybe once a month), or not come home at all.
In short, I’ll take the consequences of a temporary tax holiday, if it means we can better afford for my children to see their father (and so that we can continue improvements to sell the house).
the goddess anna on April 29, 2008 at 4:32 PM
highhopes on April 29, 2008 at 4:10 PM
That’s great, you’re talking about a bunch of ignorant democrats that what to have the world handed to them. I’m talking about the people who want to work and can only find a job 40 miles away, like in northern michigan where it’s 30 miles to everything.
flytier on April 29, 2008 at 4:35 PM
You’re bold. Sometimes it doesn’t take much to pop a bubble.
I agree. We need to drill. Yes, if we had excess supply then prices wouldn’t go up. But that doesn’t mean that today’s prices aren’t a bubble.
What prices? Gasoline? Are you proposing that they sell gasoline at sub-market prices?????? That wouldn’t make sense. They already sell all their gasoline, lowering the price would just cause them to sell out faster than they could resupply.
blink on April 29, 2008 at 4:44 PM
A couple of truckers or a co-op of drivers could do like the airlines and hedge their fuel costs for a year (or more). Buy an option contract for gasoline (or diesel). Use the profit*** to cover part of the years gasoline pump cost. One contract is 42000 gal. enough for about 2 truckers or 100 cars.
*** of course if fuel costs go down, you eat the premium, just like all of those evil speculators.
deadman on April 29, 2008 at 4:54 PM
highhopes on April 29, 2008 at 4:01 PM
What the hell are you talking about?
I never said or implied that I “resented” moving, nor have I made a single suggestion about how you should lead your life!
I believe in freedom, and I would never deign to suggest what you or anyone should do, where you should live, or what kind of car you should drive.
You, on the other hand, began the day deriding our “lifestyle choices” when asked if driving was really an option for most Americans.
But hey, maybe you’re not a Marxist, but an arrogant Fascist. Either way you seem to enjoy telling other people how to lead their lives. You sniff disapprovingly at their choices, and go on to make all sort of idiotic assumptions about situations you know zilch about.
Buy Danish on April 29, 2008 at 4:54 PM
Look, I’m not going to attempt to educate you regarding trading strategies for commodities. Let me just tell you this, Never Underestimate the Power of Momentum Speculators!
blink on April 29, 2008 at 4:56 PM
So most of you are claiming that there it’s impossible for the US to function with 10% less oil? Gee, what will we do if there’s an extended supply interruption?
blink on April 29, 2008 at 4:57 PM
Fuel prices have been driven up by China and India biding against us. We could reduce demand by refusing to purchase good from China and India. I have tried it and cannot do it without going back to the stone age.
Would somebody please start a business called China Free so I can avoid Chineese goods?
Thanks,
Go Green and Starve somebody in a third world country!
The Rock on April 29, 2008 at 5:07 PM
One way to save on heating is to look into geothermal heating. This even works in Canada where the winters are, in general, harsher than in the U.S. It also serves to air condition in the summer. Note that this is not the same thing as the traditional heat pump that has been around for years. Here is some information. Find more by googling “geothermal heating.”
Annar on April 29, 2008 at 5:17 PM
Heh. It turns out that Madame Pelosi is clueless about the price of gas. Click here to find out how you can bring her up to date.
Buy Danish on April 29, 2008 at 5:18 PM
I’d say you missed several posts somewhere, or else you didn’t understand what you read. I don’t usually get into pissing contests with condescending assh***s because it’s a fight one can never win.
All I’ve been able to understand from what you’ve posted is your insuations that anyone who disagrees with you and your view of the energy situation is somehow stupid or ignorant.
My point was there are consequences to the wasteful lifestyle we have in the U.S. Now go ahead and defend whatever you want to defend about yourself. In the long run if you can pay for a wasteful and extravagent lifestyle then all power to you. The problem is you and people who think like you are costing the rest of us. So get your head out of your ass and think about that.
One other thing, just because someone doesn’t agree with you is it really neccessary to toss the Marxist and Fascist tags around. Are you sure you’re not really a Berkeley Proffesor just doing a little web posing and trolling?
Fascists and Marxists? You need some new cliches.
greasywrench on April 29, 2008 at 5:29 PM
All I’ve been able to understand from what you’ve posted is your insuations that anyone who disagrees with you and your view of the energy situation is somehow stupid or ignorant.
My point was there are consequences to the wasteful lifestyle we have in the U.S. Now go ahead and defend whatever you want to defend about yourself. In the long run if you can pay for a wasteful and extravagent lifestyle then all power to you. The problem is you and people who think like you are costing the rest of us. So get your head out of your ass and think about that.
One other thing, just because someone doesn’t agree with you is it really neccessary to toss the Marxist and Fascist tags around. Are you sure you’re not really a Berkeley Proffesor just doing a little web posing and trolling?
Fascists and Marxists? You need some new cliches.
greasywrench on April 29, 2008 at 5:29 PM
When people complain about “extravagent lifestyles” and demand that other people live their lives according to their dictates, that’s a marxist/fascist combo sandwich.
I’m asking for freedom and for solutions that actually work, not unworkable band aid approaches and luddite complaints about other people’s choices.
The bottom line is that there is plenty of flipping oil right here in this country if only we could drill for it and refine it.
I’m not the problem!
Buy Danish on April 29, 2008 at 5:44 PM
Argh. I forgot to put greasywrench’s comment in quotes. god forbid they get confused with mine. Here’s my mulligan:
When people complain about “extravagent [sic] lifestyles” and demand that other people live their lives according to their dictates, that’s a marxist/fascist combo sandwich.
I’m asking for freedom and for solutions that actually work, not unworkable band aid approaches and luddite complaints about other people’s material choices.
The bottom line is that there is plenty of flipping oil right here in this country if only we could drill for it and refine it.
I’m not the problem!
Buy Danish on April 29, 2008 at 5:49 PM
All you need is a national boycott of one oil company per month. I mean a total boycott. BOYCOTT ONE A MONTH!
sonnyspats1 on April 29, 2008 at 6:08 PM
Sigh… again….
If it costs $1.00 to make gas, and your selling it for $3.00 because others in the market are… then you are helping to support an overpriced market.
The Futures market is only one PART of the entire oil produced by the industry. Shell has its own refineries, own wells, own transport systems, and own gas stations. The futures price has nothing to do with the COST of Shell to produce a gallon of gas… it only affects the cost of additional oil Shell would use if it had more demand than it had internal supply… and even then the extra oil price increase would be mitigated by the lower cost of the internaly supplied oil…
IF the majority of the cost increase to the consumer is being driven by the Futures market and specualtion, then those companies who have internal sources of supply would not be affected by it.
If THEY kept their prices down, then they would get a larger market share, and the speculators would have to drop their prices to a more reasonable level… which is how the market is supposed to work.
Gas stations here HAVE GAS. We are not in a shortage, except one perceived by the speculators and futures market.
Romeo13 on April 29, 2008 at 6:35 PM
I noticed that neither Democratic candidate has broached the subject of drilling in those areas congress has placed off limits such as ANWAR. I agree, Captain, that an increase in taxes on big oil with the result being gasoline prices going up. So then, I guess, the Democrats will want to freeze gas prices, killing the profits of the oil companies, their dividends and resulting in considerably less research and exploration.
And where are the cries from the media to stop the Chinese who are drilling for the Cubans in the jointly owned American-Cuban oil field off our pristine beaches in Key West. Oh, I forgot, Castro is the good guy. As was done before, the drilling in Alaska would utilize a drilling “island” with slant drilling to get the maximum number of wells; not the picture we have of oil rigs covering, say, the Texas or Southern Iraq landscape as far as one can see.
I can imagine the ME sheiks are laughing their butts off seeing us pay $120+ per barrel for oil, which is indirectly supporting terrorists, while sitting on our own vast oil reserves because of unrealistic environmental concerns as the very politicians who restrict our drilling decry the cost of gasoline along with our citizens and media. We seem to be like spoiled children who want everything with no effort required on their part.
No lesions learned from the 1973 embargo, so I can’t wait until the next oil embargo when we would lose 60% of our oil supplies. I guess that is the only way we will learn.
amr on April 29, 2008 at 6:43 PM
Yawn.
Who cares? That’s what the ENTIRE commodities market is about. Placing bets now based on current events and what is thought could happen in the future.
Supply and demand. If there’s a strong demand and the supply is unstable or limited, of course the the price for that commodity is going to go up even more due to the unstable/limited supply. And the speculators are trying to jump on the gravy train. Wow. What’s new? Nothing…
eanax on April 29, 2008 at 7:40 PM
GO GREEN & BUY CARBON CREDITS — Feed Al Gore!
stenwin77 on April 29, 2008 at 8:44 PM
And how do you propose to do that?
Let’s say you decide to boycott Exxon. The only person you hurt is the owner of that station, hint it isn’t Exxon. The refinery that produces the gas just sells the gas they would have sold to that Exxon station to the Shell station across the street.
jdkchem on April 29, 2008 at 10:55 PM
But that’s not what’s happening here…the cost of a barrel is, what, $120??? In the early ’80’s is was $8. Trust me, my dad was in this industry for 30+ years…I’m familiar with these tiresome arguments. I lived in Dallas & Houston during the bust years of ‘85 & ‘86, and those cities took years to recover…the recession of ‘91 was already there for 6 years. Let me explain some things to you.
The price is broken down much like this:
If you’re paying $2.67 for a gallon, only .08 goes to the company in profit, while .54 goes to the government in taxes. The rest goes to crude, production, and refining costs.
So, if you’re paying $3.50 a gallon, approximately .10 goes to the company in profit, while about .70 goes to the government in taxes. Again, the rest goes to crude, production, and refining costs.
This is why, no matter how many times Congress has called for investigations into the oil industry for price gouging, they’ve never found it.
Can I explain the high profits of BP of 63% for this quarter? No, but can anyone explain the losses they experienced in the previous 10 years, and during those years they were subjected to the Windfall Profits Taxes? No? How ’bout we just allow for good ol’ Capitalism? I’m fine with it, knowing how much they’ve suffered over the decades at the hands of politicians, environmentalists, and the public.
I’m frankly tired of seeing companies who provide the backbone of our economy targeted, especially on a conservative board. Our wages haven’t increased with our costs because we look to the government to regulate every little damn thing, and they tax the living hell out of us. That is our problem. (excepting the illegal alien issue, of course.)
Miss_Anthrope on April 29, 2008 at 11:26 PM
It is not the federal governments business to rebuild any city. Anyone that is still living in a FEMA rent free trailer after two years is at fault. I lost my home and I had to pay for my own trailer while I was rebuilding. It is called work.
Johan Klaus on April 30, 2008 at 1:27 AM
I’ve been boycotting Citgo for years.
James on April 30, 2008 at 7:22 AM
The situation in NOLA is bit different because entire neighborhoods were wiped out and the pace of rebuilding has been slow. Like the price of oil, it is a supply and demand situation.
That being said, people with the mindset of holier-than-thou Highhopes are a serious threat to our freedom and prosperity. Instead of pushing Congress to open up oil fields and allow new refineries to be built (while developing new technologies for the future), they blame the American people for not squeezing their families into sardine cans and, beyond all reason, assert that people commute long and grueling hours to work as a “lifestyle choice”.
People are smart enough to carpool or use park and rides if those options are available to them, and indeed many people are using those options, in addition to cutting down on unnecessary car trips. However, it is ludicrous to claim that everyone can do it, or that these conservation methods provide a meaningful solution.
It’s a huge distraction from reaching workable solutions and it plays right into Al Gore’s and Nancy Pelosi’s hand.
Buy Danish on April 30, 2008 at 8:36 AM
Citgo is run by Venezuela (Chavez). Notice that they conveniently changed the name to “Valero”?
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on April 30, 2008 at 11:07 AM
Citgo is run by Venezuela (Chavez). Notice that they conveniently changed the name to “Valero”?
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on April 30, 2008 at 11:07 AM
The problem is that by boycotting Citgo you’re mostly hurting the small business owners who own Citgo franchises. Citgo is also based in Houston and has 4,000 American employees.
It’s not as cut and dried as it sounds and certainly stopping imports from Venezuela would not help the current situation.
Buy Danish on April 30, 2008 at 11:27 AM
These statements prove that you aren’t smart enough to intelligently engage in this discussion.
The “market share” you mentioned isn’t limited by pricing, it’s limited by capacity!!!!!!!
THIS IS IS IS IS MY POINT!
blink on April 30, 2008 at 11:30 AM
eanax, were you buying tulip bulbs in 1636?
You’re right, nothing is new. People are still just as stupid. The thing is, as long as you sell before the bubble pops, you can make quite a bit of money. Mo-mo’s know this. Mo-mo’s live this. Mo-mo’s get rich like this.
You don’t know what a mo-mo is.
blink on April 30, 2008 at 11:39 AM
Yep, I am right. Nothing is new when it comes to human behavior.
Yes, people continue to make stupid choices and engage in stupid behavior because our biology really hasn’t changed much since the dawn of civilization. And all of this happens despite the fact that we’ve created tools to make our lives more comfortable and we’ve learned much about the world we live in.
Wow! Now, THAT’S breaking news! Someone, anyone, alert the media! Blank, blanc, or whatever his name is, has revealed an astonishing discovery!
eanax on April 30, 2008 at 12:14 PM
Hey guys,
Maybe the truckers should just target a few Congressional Democrats… and a few environmentalist whackos for their wrath.
Go check what Professor Reynolds posted this morning. The Alberta drilling is being stopped cold by the same people who say to care about the environment.
I think the truckers and the American people better have a “DC oil party” before long.
newton on April 30, 2008 at 12:30 PM
Hence my boycot. I didn’t know about Valero, though…I’ve only seen one station with that name, and I wasn’t tempted to make a purchase there anyway.
Perhaps all of those people should have been more careful when choosing their business partners. I certainly won’t be guilt-tripped into supporting Chavez.
James on April 30, 2008 at 12:32 PM
You got it all wrong, man. Citgo never changed its name. It still has refineries and sations around.
Valero is a different petrochemical company. It’s based in San Antonio, and has the most refineries in the country. It bought a huge number of Citgo and Diamond Shamrock statios in recent years.
newton on April 30, 2008 at 12:33 PM
So you claim you understand this, yet you are blaming the government for the bubble?
blink on April 30, 2008 at 1:09 PM
Yeah, well we get oil from Saudi Arabia. You want to boycott all oil?
Chavez took over Citgo when he nationalized the oil companies with what were formerly private corporations. Many of these franchises pre-date his rise to power. Should they just lose their life’s investments as a gesture of solidarity against Chavez?
Sometimes standing on principle ends up being a meaningless gesture that does more harm than good. In this case you’re hurting the mom and pop store owner (and the 4,000 Americans who work for Citgo in Texas) while doing little if anything to hurt Chavez.
Buy Danish on April 30, 2008 at 1:50 PM
Yeah, that’s the point. But when Chavez took over Citgo, mom and pop simply welcomed their new Venezuelan overlord instead of seeking to convert their franchise to another gas company. No thanks…not the kind of people I want to support.
James on April 30, 2008 at 1:58 PM
.
No, no no! Valero is a US company, primarily a refiner, who has recently begun retailing. They have bought some stations from citgo, which helps out the gas station owners – they should be recommended, not boycotted.
Think_b4_speaking on April 30, 2008 at 2:01 PM
For the record, I don’t think anyone here is boycotting Valero…I didn’t know anything about them before, and the appropriate correction of incorrect information has been received and understood.
Citgo moms and pops, however, can go piss up a rope.
James on April 30, 2008 at 2:08 PM
That’s like saying that a Mc Donalds franchise could become a Burger King with no cost to the franchise owner.
Moreover, I don’t believe that Citgo charges a franchisee fee, so if owners wanted to switch they’d have to come up with big bucks to pay for the change over, not to mention the equipment changes.
Buy Danish on April 30, 2008 at 2:21 PM
I didn’t say they could do it ‘with no cost.’ I said they saw no problem with being nationalized Venezuelan puppets and made no effort to correct the situation.
Ah, so they wouldn’t be out a single penny of their own money if they had severed their relationship with Chavez-Citgo and found employment elsewhere? Gotcha. Compelling sympathy ahoy.
James on April 30, 2008 at 2:30 PM
Um, 7eleven switched from Citgo gas to their own. Granted, they were thinking of swtiching anyway, but it helped. We no longer buy gas on Navy bases because they use Citgo gas… I doubt our family’s boycott is hurting Mom & Pop gas stations. I don’t feel that much sympathy for them on this – it’s business, and they’re peddling a product from an unpopular source.
the goddess anna on April 30, 2008 at 2:45 PM
Um, it’s absolutely pointless to discuss boycotting Citgo gasoline. Even if 50% of Americans participate, the other 50% might run to those stations to cash in on the $0.01 discount.
This is my point with Romeo13. Gasoline will sell at near market prices regardless of costs or boycotts.
blink on April 30, 2008 at 3:33 PM
I see. If you ever buy your own Mom & Pop business and it happens to be nationalized by some insane Marxist dictator, you’ll just take the losses because it’s the right thing to do, even though it is largely an empty gesture. I salute your patriotic self-sacrifice.
the goddess anna on April 30, 2008 at 2:45 PM
True, and good for them, but they were an entire chain, not a stand alone gas station owner.
Any other “unpopular sources” that bother you on this list? You might have to give up buying oil altogether.
Buy Danish on April 30, 2008 at 5:34 PM
Okay, so I may be wrong. I thought Venezuela was less popular than Canada and all.
the goddess anna on April 30, 2008 at 7:18 PM
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