A Euro-Islam, or an Islamist Trojan horse?
posted at 8:20 am on April 23, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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The massive immigration of Muslims to Europe has many analysts concerned that demographics and radicalism will change the nature of the Continent in the next several decades. Perhaps instead it could change the face of Islam by forcing it to compete in a post-Enlightenment environment — or so some Islamic scholars hope. Der Spiegel reports on a “Euro-Islam” movement that seeks to reconcile the Muslims with modernity and end the kind of 7th-century radicalism that currently plagues Islam and the world. Or does it?
In effect, [Tariq] Ramadan is something of a modern-day itinerant preacher. His mission is to boost the self-confidence of Europe’s Muslims and to explain his vision of a “European Islam” to Europe’s Christian elite. The new brand of faith which, according to Ramadan, “is currently taking shape among European Muslims with Islamic-European culture” aims to reconcile Western values with the teachings of Islam. This “Euro-Islam” has allowed Ramadan to win friends among immigrant children and proponents of interreligious dialogue — and make enemies among right-wing nationalists and hardline Islamists.
Ramadan has given thousands of presentations over the past few years, speaking to a wide range of audiences, including Muslims and Christians, atheists and Jews, church representatives and politicians, industrialists, students and anti-globalization activists. Over the weekend, he made four appearances in France where he spoke to over 2,500 people, mostly young Muslims. Tonight he will speak in Birmingham at a police convention, tomorrow morning his schedule takes him to Blackpool; he can’t remember off the top of his head who he’s talking to there. …
Some, like the British government, see him as a Muslim visionary who provides a modern interpretation of the Koran and breaks with outmoded traditions. “We need trust and dialogue and a more flexible faith,” says Ramadan. This kind of language prompted former British Prime Minister Tony Blair to appoint him to what was essentially a Muslim task force to combat extremism. On the other side of the Atlantic, Time magazine placed him on its list of the 100 people who comprise “tomorrow’s most influential individuals.”
Others see him as an Islamist in disguise, a “wolf in sheep’s clothing,” a master of deception. And, as a matter of fact, Ramadan has made a number of statements that don’t sound remotely liberal or tolerant.
Tariq Ramadan has an interesting history, and not one necessarily indicative of moderation. His grandfather founded the Muslim Brotherhood in 1928, the clandestine organization that would later spawn the Ba’athists as well as Islamic Jihad in Egypt, which would eventually provide most the leadership of al-Qaeda. Ramadan got stripped of his US visa for donating money to Hamas front groups, losing a prestigious position at Notre Dame.
On the other hand, the Islam he presents differs significantly from that of the extremists, even in Europe. Ramadan has argued that Islam has to reform itself to remove the temporal from the spiritual, and that Muslims have to accept secular authority as a result. He blames Islamic leaders for the poor relations Islam has with the West, especially those nations which ostensibly run themselves as Islamic theocracies while violating major tenets of the faith. However, Ramadan has also defended shari’a as an acceptable law, which tends to blur the temporal/spiritual line that Ramadan says he wants to establish.
Ramadan isn’t alone in at least airing the notion of an Islamic Enlightenment, where hermeneutics replaces literal meaning for the Koran and historical context gets considered in its interpretation. Turkey began the effort with Mustapha Kemal at the establishment of the country. He demanded — and imposed — a modernized Islam and a secular state. That tradition continues today despite tension among Turks as to the imposed limits of Islam. Other scholars in Europe want to see a similar brand of Islam that strips the religion of its pretensions to temporal power and limits it to the personal sphere.
Can this work? It did in Turkey, but that took a specific set of circumstances and a leader with the power to impose the solution. European scholars pursuing an Enlightment certainly help, but only as long as they’re sincere about their desire for that goal. Whether Ramadan qualifies as sincere or as a man looking to build a Trojan horse for radical Islam in Europe will remain to be seen.
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Bartender, I’ll have another Taqiyyah Sunrise!
And put it da’wa on my tab.
Shy Guy on April 23, 2008 at 8:27 AM
Impossible. You cannot reconcile the Islamic ideology with modernity without ruining both. Either you follow Christianity and the West, or you follow Islam.
That’s before you even take into account that Muslims are encouraged to lie to advance their cause.
A funnier way to say what I was going to say. Clever!
emailnuevo on April 23, 2008 at 8:32 AM
No. The danger Europe is facing is not so much Islamization but Balkanization. Instead of proud and noble Jihadi warriors, the streets of Europe will be flooded by hapless wannabes who couldn’t replace or fix a singe part of the Porsches they’re driving - or machine guns they’re operating.
And to give you an insight into the actual demographic change: By 2012 in the 10 largest German cities more than 50% of all male adults age 40 or below will be descendants of immigrants.
That’s not a typo. 2012. And we all know that those immigrants aren’t doctors from South Korea or nuclear engineers from India.
Niko on April 23, 2008 at 8:47 AM
They’re takng a different path this time, and it’s got them past the gates of Vienna.
Spc Steve on April 23, 2008 at 8:51 AM
Islam is a virus that only knows how to infect its host and then consume it. The Koran is an instruction book designed to eradicate Hebrew and Christian teachings and cultures.
Europe thought that it was smart enough to dance with the devil, and it’s too late for them now. There is no way the EU could reverse the invasion. They simply won’t act. It would be an interesting figure to know how many Muslims are born in England or Europe in a day compared to the agnostic, post-modern, intellectual natives.
Hening on April 23, 2008 at 8:53 AM
Yep, it worked in Turkey, for a time…
Turkey is now again having problems. The last couple of elections have put a LOT of Islamists into political power, and it will be interesting to see if that trend continues.
Romeo13 on April 23, 2008 at 9:07 AM
Ramadan’s brand of Islam is, in fact, more dangerous than any other. I feel like I am coming full circle back to why I originally began studying Islam. That had more to do with its influence on the United Nations than it had to do with 9/11. If you don’t see his sword, check his pockets for knives.
Connie on April 23, 2008 at 9:08 AM
True. Now they are trying to get the ruling party banned after it used the ruse of freedom of speech to bring back the hijab. There is no such thing as a progressive Islam, even though there is an attempt to temporarily align it with the politics of global socialism. Once the socialists have outlived their purpose, the Islamists will eat them alive.
Connie on April 23, 2008 at 9:16 AM
Attaturk once said that the history of Islam was “like a necklace of corpses around the neck of humanity”
Turkey did not create a modern Islam. It simply suppressed the traditional one.
Jimmy the Dhimmi on April 23, 2008 at 9:20 AM
Ramadan has gone on national TV with Sarkozy and refused to renounce several things that I forget now, but that are central to this question of if Islam is able to be transformed.
Ah, yes, the stoning of adulterers. He refused to denounce the practice. IHT:
Sure, he goes on in the article to justify it under ‘capital punishment should not be outright condemned, yadda yadda…
Personally, I err on the side of caution with guys like this: Trojan Horse.
Vatican Watcher on April 23, 2008 at 9:25 AM
I think it’s only fair that you mention the fact that Ramadan donated to this organization only before it was ever designated by the Treasury Department as a Hamas front group in 2003.
AJB on April 23, 2008 at 9:28 AM
“Ramadan got stripped of his US visa for donating money to Hamas front groups …”
‘Nuff said.
Yeah, this is more of a Trojan Horse. To most muslims in Europe I believe it is unintentional, they’re just moving there for a better life, but I’m sure there are also those who see this as a way of spreading islam into the West and outbreeding us. They want revenge for losing to Charles Martel. Hold a grudge much?
On the other hand,I don’t think they’re smart enough to be compared to the brilliant tactician Odysseus who came up with the idea of the giant wooden horse full of soldiers.
Tony737 on April 23, 2008 at 9:28 AM
Islam is a virus that only knows how to infect its host and then consume it.
*sigh*
Just out of curiosity, does your hatred of Islam extend to all Muslims in general or do you just hate the religion itself?
AJB on April 23, 2008 at 9:35 AM
I don’t where you read that but its a myth. Ataturk suppressed Islam and and with every effort attempted to replace it with Turkish nationalism.
Also, whats up with calling Ataturk by his first names only?
aengus on April 23, 2008 at 9:38 AM
Am armchair surrender-monkey? Of course its not too late. Who knows what will happen once the thunder and lightning really begin.
It could be very easily done. Its just that too few people are advocating it at the moment.
aengus on April 23, 2008 at 9:50 AM
That’s the same tired argument about giving illegals amnesty here in the USA. You must be a “hater” if you accept being overcome by people different than you, right?
Having to live with Islam wiping other cultures doesn’t break down to dealing with one Muslim at a time. I’m sure that is what Europe thought.
Hating what is evil is not a bad thing. It tends to develop our character just like what we love, but *sigh*, I’m sure you are way above that like many Europeans.
Hening on April 23, 2008 at 9:52 AM
You must be a “hater” if you don’t accept being overcome by people different than you, right?
Had to fix that……
Hening on April 23, 2008 at 9:54 AM
Very true.
Don’t tell me he didn’t know exaclty what they were up to before it was designated as a Hamas front group.
And about Islam being a virus which seeks to destroy? That couldn’t be more true. Islam would deserve some benefit of doubt if it were to ever prove it could earn it.
Sadly, if it isn’t seeking to destroy that which is around it, it isn’t Islam.
Grafted on April 23, 2008 at 9:58 AM
Euro-tent meet Islamo-Camel’s nose.
“Islam must dominate and not be dominated.”
Sorta kills that quaint idea of The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, eh?
profitsbeard on April 23, 2008 at 10:00 AM
I would still be very wary of a more paletable salesman touting a softer, gentler brand of cyanide.
Grafted on April 23, 2008 at 10:01 AM
Wow, I’m both a surrender monkey and a “hater” in one thread.
I’ve worked in Denmark, and saw this going on ten years ago when it was already out off control. The Captain is right about a Balkans scenario since this was started with Albanians multiplying and roaming the Northern socialist countries like zombies Please be so kind to explain how Britain or Denmark is going to reverse this, and then let’s wait for it to happen. It never will. That takes leadership and backbone, which is “evil” in the post-modern landscape.
Hening on April 23, 2008 at 10:01 AM
I smell a con-artist.
OldEnglish on April 23, 2008 at 10:03 AM
There is a solution for Europe, but they’re too “progressive” and “enlightened” to do it: HAVE MORE BABIES.
When the replacement numbers exceed 2.1 for non-Muslims in the EU, then I’ll rest a bit easier. I’d rest much easier if the rate were perhaps twice that high.
mjtyson on April 23, 2008 at 10:04 AM
I’m all fine and good with experiments on how Islam will cooperate with the West. My question is why don’t they try some experiments in Saudi Arabia? Wouldn’t that be the logical place to attempt to bring Islam up to modern times? I mean what good is allowing Islam to do whatever, when Islam won’t allow other religions to do whatever?
Why is it so difficult to build a church in Saudi Arabia? Why are there some areas that are off limits to non-Muslims in Mecca and Saudi Arabia? These are the issues that should be addressed, not whether or not Islam can make it in Europe.
The bottom line is that this is exactly what happened before the Crusades. History is repeating itself. Eventually the same thing that happened during the Crusades will happen again. This time we do have nuclear bombs though. . . they don’t. That’s not a threat, it is a fact.
ThackerAgency on April 23, 2008 at 10:05 AM
I’m not sure exactly. I was referring to the law of unintended consequences. I just don’t accept that its all over and we might as well submit or die.
Yes I agree a Balkans scenario is likely.
But remember in the Balkans when the Serbs were winning they expelled their illegal Muslim population from Serbia. If NATO hadn’t bombed the Serbs to smithereens the situation would have resolved itself. Thats one scenario.
aengus on April 23, 2008 at 10:14 AM
The bottom line is that this is exactly what happened before the Crusades. History is repeating itself. Eventually the same thing that happened during the Crusades will happen again.
Except:
1) You didn’t have the Muslim population in the West that you do now.
2) The West had a clear vision of no surrender.
3) You didn’t have leadership trying to get elected by pandering to the Muslim vote, or Muslim leaders in the West.
The fact that so many Muslims are being born into Western countries is like a biological paratrooper situation. Western nations are torn between giving anyone born there opportunities and legitimacy even when these entitled thinking people use those gifts as weapons against the host nation.
Hening on April 23, 2008 at 10:15 AM
Right. But even if Europeans have more babies they still have the problem of what to do about the million of Muslims who will still be in Europe.
aengus on April 23, 2008 at 10:17 AM
I find it hard to believe that Islam can reform itself without destroying the core of what makes it “Islam.” It is a political ideology as much as it is a religion (the difference between Muhammad’s merging of mosque and state and Christ’s “render unto Caesar” advice makes this plain as day), and for Islam to give up the idea of temporal rule would be to jettison much of the Qur’an. I doubt it can be done.
As for Tariq Ramadan, a lot of his smooth words strike me as taqqiya – deception to fool the unbeliever.
irishspy on April 23, 2008 at 10:21 AM
aengus on April 23, 2008 at 10:14 AM
I watch this like a WWII scenario with the US watching the turmoil in Europe, and wonder how it will play out here. If 9/11 didn’t happen, you have to wonder how much further along Islam would have been entrenched in out own society.
The current situation includes numbers way beyond what the Serbs tried to deal with (and they did a pretty bad job of it). Europe will not act as a united union with this so how do you deal with one country expelling Muslims into another? Also, if this drags out another ten years with the Muslim population bomb continuing you’ll have a majority of young Muslims.
I would like to share your optimism, really. Here’s hoping you are correct.
Hening on April 23, 2008 at 10:24 AM
Islam would have been entrenched in
outour own society.Sorry about that….
Hening on April 23, 2008 at 10:26 AM
More bullsh*t imaginary reality from the left. Even if you are an atheist it follows that the values espoused by Christianity - by definition - lead to an enlightened society.
Islam DOES NOT. Never has. NEVER WILL. Geert Wilders was right. It’s a retarded culture that is the direct result of a fascistic religion.
Dream all you want Euro-libs. You will get NO WHERE by trying to compromise with these people. The 2005 French riots will look like a happy little walk in the park 20 years from now.
thareb on April 23, 2008 at 10:47 AM
More bullsh*t imaginary reality from the left. Even if you are an atheist it follows that the values espoused by Christianity - by definition - lead to an enlightened society.
Islam DOES NOT. Never has. NEVER WILL. Geert Wilders was right. It’s a retarded culture that is the direct result of a fascistic religion.
Dream all you want Euro-libs. You will get NO WHERE by trying to compromise with these people. The 2005 French riots will look like a happy little walk in the park 20 years from now.
thareb on April 23, 2008 at 10:47 AM
Convert them to Christianity.
Churches in the US and in Africa need to send more missionaries to Europe. These missionaries need to concentrate on children and youth (which very few missionaries do — 97% of all outreach is to adults). Spend 20 to 25 years winning 30% - 45% of the children and our grandchildren will not have to liberate Paris again.
talking_mouse on April 23, 2008 at 10:50 AM
Their desire is to establish the caliphate. How is this different from the jihadis? They do it nonviolently? Oh goody. I get to be eventually put under the boot-heel of Islam, forced to pay the tribute tax, have my freedoms radically curtailed and be alive at the same time! Where do I sign up?
It’s the difference between throwing a frog into boiling water and slowly heating the water it’s in. The end result is a boiled frog in both cases; you just don’t feel the latter happening.
spmat on April 23, 2008 at 10:56 AM
Tariq Ramadan is a charlatan of the first order and a man not to be trusted at all.
Hit the books, Ed. This guy has form.
Ares on April 23, 2008 at 10:57 AM
Please don’t think I’m being harsh but here’s a nice primer:
BROTHER TARIQ
http://www.amazon.com/Brother-Tariq-Doublespeak-Ramadan/dp/1594032157
Ares on April 23, 2008 at 10:59 AM
Great suggestion but I think the powder keg is going to ignite a lot faster than in 20-25 years. Whenever the imams in the UK (as seen in Undercover Mosque) feel that they have the strength to take over they’ll try. I’d sure like to get a look at their timetable.
aengus on April 23, 2008 at 11:04 AM
In the meantime, our government is negotiating with both the EU and several EU member nations about relaxing the restrictions on travel to the US from Europe. Read about that here. Obviously, the intent is to make it easier for Brits, Germans, Greeks, and the French to come here to visit, but it seems we’re also opening the door to Islamofascists…
PeterPotamus on April 23, 2008 at 11:18 AM
They could just come in from Mexico or get a student visa from Saudi Arabia if they wanted. Whats needed is a discriminatory exclusion policy against Muslims but in the age of liberalism they can’t even be searched at airports.
aengus on April 23, 2008 at 11:31 AM
Convert them to Christianity.
…but they kill their own that do convert. I’m sure missionaries reaching out to Islam in Europe would face violence or death. Muslim communities isolate themselves for the host culture, and get away with threatening all that enter.
I was impressed with the Pope’s visit to the US, and he is the only spiritual leader in Europe with the brass to stand up. The AOC strikes me as the typical example of a Euro and American Liberal church leader. Just imagine the Episcopal Church in the USA trying to stand up to Islam?
Great idea, but Islam has been making Christian martyrs since the first year it was invented. It rolled over the Christian Middle East and Northern Africa like a hot knife on butter creating genocide and mass slavery from village to village.
Hening on April 23, 2008 at 11:38 AM
You cannot change the words or commands of the god Allah.
Men like Ramadan are a thousand times the danger of decoys like Osama.
BL@KBIRD on April 23, 2008 at 11:42 AM
Just words?
OldEnglish on April 23, 2008 at 11:47 AM
There’s a story going around now that in 2004, Sarko wanted “all religions to live side-by-side in peace.” I think the story is being pushed disingenuously to take him down a peg in the eyes of the West.
Connie on April 23, 2008 at 12:14 PM
Make sure to pray for this man Zakaria Botros.
http://www.fatherzakaria.net/
His TV and web based ministry has made him public enemy #1 for the islamists.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NTUwY2QyNjA0NjcwMjExMzI2ZmJiZTEzN2U1YjYyZjE=
They have a $5 million bounty on his head already.
SaintOlaf on April 23, 2008 at 1:33 PM
Wasn’t Agamemnon the ship John Sheridan captained that was the only Earth Alliance ship to wax a Membari ship?…No wait that was the EAS Lexington.
Totally off-topic I know.
MechEng5by5 on April 23, 2008 at 2:09 PM
I heard a report on some radio program a few weeks ago and this very subject was discussed. According to that report Muslim women in Europe are starting to stray from strict faith and that in turn is effecting the whole community. Sarkozy has a “modern” Muslim woman in his cabinet. They want reform. They want to be a part of the larger world.
Terrye on April 23, 2008 at 2:43 PM
In fact they had a sort of saying or motto, it was something like “neither whore nor slave”.
Terrye on April 23, 2008 at 2:45 PM
It won’t work. In a debate with Sakorzy, Ramadan refused to condemn stoning of women to death.
You can’t be a little bit pregnant, a little bit Muslim, or a little bit Sharia.
Which means “stuck” Europeans unable to flee to the US will end up fighting with Muslims over what rules, Sharia or Western Law.
Simple as that. I predict that a certain movie, “THERE WILL BE BLOOD.”
whiskey_199 on April 23, 2008 at 3:55 PM
I vote Taqiyyah.
No, it can’t work. Attaturk was an anomoly. He saw Islam as a losing proposition for greatness, and went with Nationalism. Just how many Islamic societies now are running from Islam? Not many. Pan-Islamism is the great dream that drives these countries and their various global-Islam-at-all-costs terrorist organizations. There are few internal forces pushing to alter this perception, and fewer still with any power to try to enforce it.
Christianity came to terms with secular power and modernism via some very bloody wars between Catholicism and Protestantism; that threatened to destroy both. Islam, one could hope, would soon encounter such a conflict capable of eventually neutralizing their conviction that religion must rule at every level of existence, but that seems quite unlikely to occur.
Islam’s reforming force won’t come from within, it must come from without, as did Attaturk’s inspiration, which was loss of empire and the stultifying effects of Islamist rule. Right now Islam is convinced it can enjoy the fruits of modernity while remaining in it’s intellectual and cultural cave, and only failing soundly in that fantasy will shake some sense into them. Right now, the West refuses to help them arrive at that enlightened state.
My $.02
Maquis on April 23, 2008 at 5:34 PM
It didn’t work if you were an Armenian or Jew in Turkey.
irish_infidel on April 23, 2008 at 6:08 PM
CONNIE!!!!!!!
hope you check back on this thread…..
You are so on the money….damn…
they lie lie lie…
I have first hand exp. dating back some 30+ years, esp. when it comes to the muslem brotherhood!!!
Anything they say, and I mean all of them, MUST be taken with the proverbal grain of salt. Thank you for being so astute!
jerrytbg on April 23, 2008 at 9:19 PM
Well, that just makes it all better! Let me ask you something, do you expect him to donate after the front group’s designation? When the accounts have been frozen?
You know, if you were sitting on the jury for the Holy Land Foundation trial, I’d just bet you’d expect to see Hamas written in the memo section of the donated checks. Sucker.
Miss_Anthrope on April 23, 2008 at 9:34 PM
Can you describe your experience with the Muslim Brotherhood?
Connie on April 23, 2008 at 9:35 PM
Connie on April 23, 2008 at 9:35 PM
Not in any detail…suffice to say…they tried to recruit me.
After the 93 WTC bombing I contacted someone I know in the Gov, someone from active duty days.
The rest… I can’t talk about.
Make no mistake, none of them can be trusted.
They are hard core, enablers or consenters. Period.
jerrytbg on April 23, 2008 at 10:01 PM
I understand.
Connie on April 23, 2008 at 10:09 PM
Connie on April 23, 2008 at 10:09 PM
Thank you
jerrytbg on April 23, 2008 at 10:11 PM
Sorry, Ed, and anyone else who believes this stuff. You guys are deluding yourselves. Nothing worked in Turkey. It’s taking a little while, but those “secular” mechanisms are breaking down day by day, and islamicization is taking its place. The trojan horse idea is the right one–even if this guy believes his own claptrap, he’s an unwitting trojan horse.
urbancenturion on April 24, 2008 at 12:09 AM
Hey Ed,
Before I signed off for the nite I thought I’d ck back to see if anything else was said on this thread. To find it I had to hit the little white arrow in the blue circle a million times!
Not worthy of archiving….gee, I wonder why?
Please don’t tell me you caved to persons unnamed!
I know, it didn’t go beyond a page.
You guys should be running threads like this all the time.
It’s the only way we can ward them off…awareness!!!!
jerrytbg on April 24, 2008 at 12:16 AM