Hot Air Mobile
Home The Vault Gear About
Hot Air -- get your fill


Movie Review: Expelled

posted at 3:00 pm on April 18, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
Share on Facebook | printer-friendly

While at CPAC in February, I had an opportunity to attend an advance screening of the new documentary, Expelled: The Movie. Ben Stein focuses on a perceived lack of intellectual freedom afforded to those who either believe in or investigate Intelligent Design theories in the scientific community. I wrote the following review at the time; the producers may have made some changes since, but I don’t believe it would change the thrust of my review. I plan on seeing the theatrical release this weekend, and would recommend it to everyone as at least a way to discuss the values and limitations of scientific inquiry and intellectual openness in American Academia.

The bloggers at CPAC received an invitation to screen a new documentary on academic intolerance called Expelled: The Movie this evening. The documentary features Ben Stein on a quest to understand the near-hysteria caused by scientists who so much as broach the idea of intelligent design in papers or in research. It follows Stein as he interviews professors denied tenure, editors fired, and journalists shunned for touching the subject even at its most innocuous levels.

Before discussing my feelings about the film, which is still in post-production and will not go into release until April, I should explain my approach to the ID/evolution debate. I believe evolution is demonstrably proven in enough examples to say that its effect on variation in species cannot be denied. The example I used tonight in discussing this with another viewer (certainly not the only example) is antibiotic effects on bacteria. Antibiotics that kill 99% of bacteria eventually promote the survival and the expansion of the 1% that resist them, created superbacteria that require another set of antibiotics to cure, and so on.

That said, evolution does not interfere with my faith in God. God certainly could have created the universe with a design that included life. The rational laws of nature would include evolution, as well as the myriad of other rational and mathematically provable mechanisms that undergird nature. In fact, the impulse of man to discover the rational laws of nature began with the belief in a rational God, as scientists understood nature’s rationality to reveal an intelligent Creator.

I’d go deeper than that, but Dinesh D’Souza covers it nicely enough already in his book What’s So Great About Christianity, and it’s getting late enough as it is. Suffice it to say that evolution doesn’t present a threat to my worldview.

Rationally, we have to admit that some use ID as an excuse to teach the more literal form of Creationism that has been used to argue against evolution entirely, especially against teaching evolution in primary-school classrooms. That admission does not appear in Expelled, which is a glaring omission. It tends to take out of context the frustration some scientists have about ID, and its place in polarizing the debate over its use. Properly framed, ID accepts all of the science without accepting its transformation into its own belief system.

What do I mean by that? In this, the film does an excellent job of demonstrating atheism as a belief system. Atheism as represented by Richard Dawkings and others in this film gets exposed as exactly the kind of belief system they claim to despise. They can’t prove God exists — and they can’t prove God doesn’t exist. They make the common fallacy of arguing that absence of evidence amounts to evidence of absence.

But in a way, this is all secondary to the real issue of the film: academic intolerance. The debate over ID vs Darwinism sets the table for a truly disturbing look at academia. Science should be about the free debate and research of ideas and hypotheses for duplicable results and provable theorems. However, as the examples Stein and the film provide amply show, the Darwinist academic establishment will brook no dissent from the orthodoxy — and scientists have to be shown with hidden faces to speak to the issue for the film.

Amusingly, Stein asks people how the first cell came to be. None of the scientists could give him a straight answer. Dawkins himself admits he doesn’t know and that no one else does, either — but postulates that aliens could have brought life to this planet, and then postulates that another alien civilization could have brought life to that planet, and so on. He then concedes that one entity could have been the original source … but insists that entity could not possibly have been God. For this he gives absolutely no evidence at all, relegating it as a belief system somewhat akin to Scientology.

All of this is extremely effective, as are the many allusions made to the Berlin Wall during the film. The theme runs throughout, and it explicitly refers to the defensive academic establishment as having built a wall that tramples on freedom of thought and discourse. Less effective is the heavy references to the Nazis in the movie. Although emotionally affecting for some obvious reasons, the fact is that while the Nazis were mostly Darwinists (along with a lot of other things), the vast majority of Darwinists aren’t Nazis. Certainly the eugenicists in Nazi Germany were mightily influenced by Darwinism, but America had its own eugenicists, which the film points out.

I should point out that the film has not finished production, and that changes will be made between now and its release in April. The filmmakers just completed an interview with Christopher Hitchens and will include it in the final cut. I believe other changes may be made which could address some of the criticisms I’ve written here.

Overall, though, the film presents a powerful argument not for intelligent design as much as for the freedom of scientific inquiry. If scientists get punished for challenging orthodoxy, we will not expand our learning but ossify it in concrete. Expelled: The Movie is entertaining, maddening, funny, and provocative, and well worth your time.


Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 ... 24

Ed,

Here is a quick read that you will definitely enjoy…

101 scientific facts foretold in the Bible.

http://www.eternal-productions.org/101science.html

SaintOlaf on April 18, 2008 at 6:23 PM

…and don’t tell me about a mule. Creating something that can’t reproduce is not creating a new species.

Red Pill on April 18, 2008 at 6:23 PM

@ Red Pill on April 18, 2008 at 6:21 PM

You are insane. No offense, but jesus never rode a T-rex.

muyoso on April 18, 2008 at 6:24 PM

Red Pill on April 18, 2008 at 6:21 PM

Because the bible says, it doesn’t make it so.

Not true.

Is true.

lorien1973 on April 18, 2008 at 6:24 PM

@ the goddess anna on April 18, 2008 at 6:22 PM

No, there is not a single peer reviewed study out there. These things get published, they are no suppressed.

muyoso on April 18, 2008 at 6:25 PM

explain the horse? transitional, explain the Veloci Raptor?

explain the arctic fox? explain the polar bear? all evolved from their respective ancestors and changed to fit their environment. mmmm

Kaptain Amerika on April 18, 2008 at 6:17 PM

I can explain them very easily, they were created, with different kinds of flesh and different types of bones all encoded into their very different DNA.

I ask you to explain them with evolution and where are these transitional types that evolutionist are always talking about.

Maxx on April 18, 2008 at 6:25 PM

Holy mo! 400 comments in under 4 hours? This MUST be a religion/secular debate at HotAir again!

JetBoy on April 18, 2008 at 6:25 PM

Wait, Job was post-flood. When the heck did all the dinosaurs die, then, if the beast in Job was a dinosaur?

the goddess anna on April 18, 2008 at 6:26 PM

@ Maxx on April 18, 2008 at 6:25 PM

How about you explain how we came to exist without using the bible?

muyoso on April 18, 2008 at 6:26 PM

Eddy…
Did you press the red…

**** Easy button****

J_Gocht on April 18, 2008 at 6:26 PM

400 and 1…

I can’t wait to see it.

Claypigeon on April 18, 2008 at 6:27 PM

Here’s a poem that was written to me when I asked the following question: “Is there such thing as God?”

Nature:

“As I sit alone in the park viewing the luscious green of the hillsides I can’t help but remember a remark I heard not long ago.”

(The remark being my question about the existence of God).

“Oh how dark they were, I wish I could share with them the view I have and explain to them our balance of nature which they can’t control so they don’t understand…”

Liberty or Death on April 18, 2008 at 6:27 PM

i want the truth.

muyoso on April 18, 2008 at 6:20 PM

An excellent, exemplary attitude. I do too. If God truly does not exist I don’t want to believe in Him. But I believe He does because I think that belief is reasonable.

C.S. Lewis (whom I admire up the wazoo) says exactly the same thing: there is only ONE good reason to believe something and that’s because it’s TRUE. Not because it makes you feel good or benefits you in some way or any other reason. Keep looking for the truth, muyoso. Just don’t overlook evidence that is already there.

inviolet on April 18, 2008 at 6:27 PM

muyoso – what about all of the articles contrasting global warming? I’d say the GW activists try to supress dissent; it could be no different here.

Of course, I’m trying to mention the movie (the topic of this thread) in a cursory manner every once in a while. It makes me feel like I’m still on topic.

the goddess anna on April 18, 2008 at 6:28 PM

Wait, Job was post-flood. When the heck did all the dinosaurs die, then, if the beast in Job was a dinosaur?

the goddess anna on April 18, 2008 at 6:26 PM

Dinosaurs were on the ark.

Red Pill on April 18, 2008 at 6:28 PM

I took a look at the name of the site its from, and instantly I can assume its BS. Can you link me to a peer reviewed article? You know, you wouldnt link a study about the holocaust on a nazi website, because everyone understands their bias.

muyoso on April 18, 2008 at 6:13 PM

What I would suggest is that you actually read and then make the decision. Those are published articles, that are gathered into one area for review. Man, you don’t do much research do you?
Naturally a creationist is going to have his stuff published on a website supportive. Your belief is that someone like Michelle Malkin is alway wrong because Kos won’t put her on, or because she is only quoted from a conservative site.
Gee, I think I will go to the DNC to find out what the Republicans are all about.
Get it???
If you want a different opinion, you have to go seek it, the reason you believe what you believe is because you go to the same well each time.
If it is scientific fact, it is fact, isn’t that what you believe? Or is it fact if it only comes from a source that supports your views. Get it?
I gave links to a site that discredits ID, from a site that is as secular as they come. Why didn’t you complain then?
Sheessh…

right2bright on April 18, 2008 at 6:29 PM

Holy mo! 400 comments in under 4 hours? This MUST be a religion/secular debate at HotAir again!

JetBoy on April 18, 2008 at 6:25 PM

Don’t just sit there. Start typing. We gotta’ push this thing over a thousand comments in the NEXT four hours.

CyberCipher on April 18, 2008 at 6:29 PM

I’d say the GW activists try to supress dissent; it could be no different here.

There’s a difference between climate scientists – where there is a lot of debate and climate activists where there will be no debate.

lorien1973 on April 18, 2008 at 6:29 PM

E1701 on April 18, 2008 at 4:14 PM

Watch the movie. Your long rant about how ID is not scientific is the entire reason for the movie. Prediction: there will be multiple brilliant scientists who will assert that there is a scientific basis for ID(or at least as colorable scientific basis as there is for any other theory.) Evolution in all its forms requires a belief that something happened, big bang, aliens, etc. Your argument simply claims here is not and cannot be a scientific basis for ID. This requres a rejection of all the scientists and literature out there suggesting there is. Global warming may have been an equally good subject to use to show academia’s stiffling of dissent, but you sir are the reason the movie was made as it is.

infidel2 on April 18, 2008 at 6:30 PM

@ Red Pill
But when did they die?? Where did they all go?

Besides into museums as bones, that is.

the goddess anna on April 18, 2008 at 6:30 PM

Why does god hate dinosaurs? He let them all die.

lorien1973 on April 18, 2008 at 6:30 PM

Dinosaurs were on the ark.

I respect such consistancy more than a lot of squishiness.

exception on April 18, 2008 at 6:31 PM

How about you explain how we came to exist without using the bible?

muyoso on April 18, 2008 at 6:26 PM

I can’t, and that’s not my argument, I believe the Bible.

Maxx on April 18, 2008 at 6:31 PM

How about you explain how we came to exist without using the bible?

muyoso on April 18, 2008 at 6:26 PM

LOL. You’re asking me to explain the truth without using the truth. Why don’t you explain how we came to exist, without requiring faith to believe it? Believing evolution is just as much an act of faith as believing creation.

Red Pill on April 18, 2008 at 6:31 PM

Don’t just sit there. Start typing. We gotta’ push this thing over a thousand comments in the NEXT four hours.

CyberCipher on April 18, 2008 at 6:29 PM

It’s the caps that send your post over the hilarious edge. LOL thanks.

inviolet on April 18, 2008 at 6:31 PM

How about you explain how we came to exist without using the bible?

muyoso on April 18, 2008 at 6:26 PM

How about you explaining evolution without a science book.
You sat on the bench of the debate team in school didn’t you…

right2bright on April 18, 2008 at 6:32 PM

What I would suggest is that you actually read and then make the decision.

I read; they’re funky.

exception on April 18, 2008 at 6:33 PM

Why does god hate dinosaurs? He let them all die.

lorien1973 on April 18, 2008 at 6:30 PM

They’re not dead. They are still part of the universe’s static configuration space.

My collie says:

Your soul, lorien, is in grave danger, however.

CyberCipher on April 18, 2008 at 6:33 PM

This is way more interesting than sanding cabinets. I’m pretty sure that’s why I’m still around… although my kids are starting to get that shifty-eyed look (because they think I’m not paying attention!).

the goddess anna on April 18, 2008 at 6:33 PM

400+ comments. Which looks more likely to die away the flying spaghetti monster of ID?

Good posts Ed. Do you buy chance look into the young vs. old earth arguments?

shick on April 18, 2008 at 6:34 PM

Dinosaurs were on the ark. Red Pill on April 18, 2008 at 6:28 PM

RP, must I cast all my faith in you aside…?

J_Gocht on April 18, 2008 at 6:34 PM

inviolet,

Hey! I’m working up my response now. I have some time.

shick on April 18, 2008 at 6:35 PM

Why does god hate dinosaurs? He let them all die.

Why does he hate man? Still having dinosaurs around would kick ass.

exception on April 18, 2008 at 6:35 PM

of=or

shick on April 18, 2008 at 6:35 PM

Hey, I’m still waiting to find out when the dinosaurs died. I was thinking maybe they all lived in Gamorrah (sp!), but that was before Lot as well (which is the above-mentioned reference to dinosaurs post-flood).

the goddess anna on April 18, 2008 at 6:35 PM

Why does god hate dinosaurs? He let them all die.
lorien1973 on April 18, 2008 at 6:30 PM

He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
1 John 4:8 (New King James Version)

And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
1 John 4:16 (New King James Version)

Red Pill on April 18, 2008 at 6:36 PM

Dinosaurs were on the ark. Red Pill on April 18, 2008 at 6:28 PM

Given that the largest dinosaur was 110 ft long and the ark was 45 feet long, we have some space issues to deal with.

lorien1973 on April 18, 2008 at 6:36 PM

lorien1973 on April 18, 2008 at 6:36 PM

Easy there, the ark was not 45 feet long.

infidel2 on April 18, 2008 at 6:37 PM

Why does god hate dinosaurs? He let them all die.

lorien1973 on April 18, 2008 at 6:30 PM

Heh, good one!

Liberty or Death on April 18, 2008 at 6:37 PM

I’m not saying there were dinosaurs on it, but check your data

infidel2 on April 18, 2008 at 6:38 PM

Maxx:

Your complaint – and several of the ID’ers/Creationists here, stems from the very misunderstanding of evolutionary theory I mentioned initially.

On the fossil record, the nearest analogy would be finding a copy of the Bible with only three pages of text, and the rest missing, and trying to deduce the beliefs of Christianity from that beginning with an assumption that all three pages are from the Book of Genesis.

So the problem here is two-fold.

First, 99.999% of all species the ever existed on Earth did not leave fossils. Fossil creation requires very specific conditions which only pertained to an absurdly small slice of times and places over the past 3.5 billion years. This time period is also broken by an entire series of absolutely catastrophic, planet-altering incidences, from asteroid impacts to volcanic outpourings on a scale we cannot even properly imagine today (read up on the Siberian Traps, and tell me how many fossils from previous eras would have survived in those regions). What we will find instead in the fossil record is a handful of pages that form a very vague sort of story, but all the details are missing. The other problem again, is our definition of “species”, which is not remotely settled, and is a gross oversimplification for ease of classification rather than a reflection of the true nature of life.

Second, the idea of a “missing link” is fallacious. There is no “transitional” fossil because there is no “transitional” creature. If you demand some sort of “missing link ape-man” to satisfy your objections, you’ll never be satisfied, because we won’t find one. There were doubtless ape species with man-like characteristics, and we know of human-like species with ape-like characteristics. Evolution occurs in parallel, don’t forget. But if you’re looking for bigfoot, you’re barking up the wrong tree.

What the record of early homo sapiens shows instead is that preceeding from some common ancestor going back about ten million years, a particular branch of the primate family diverged gradually, perhaps to fill ecological niches (we *have* observed this), perhaps through population isolation. But these larger primates found different roles to fill – through what amounts to evolutionary trial and error, in conditions that promoted strength, size, and moderate intelligence, became the ancestor of modern great apes. The other adapted along different lines, adapting even more towards intelligence – across fossils we *do* have, we find a gradual enlarging of the skull to accomodate a larger brain, a shift to bipedal locomotion, further increases of intelligence, formations of social groupings more complex than those of apes to foster survival… and by two million years ago, you have Lucy. But again, we have changing conditions, new niches to fill, and migration-induced isolation. Several intelligent homo sapien species arose, even coexisted (again, no missing link – this is an ongoing process, not a chain of events), several died out, others filled the gaps and diverged again.

By about 45,000 years ago, and probably a good fifty thousand or more years after the taming of fire, during the last glacial period, two dominant sapient species remained in different parts of the world. In Europe, across the Caucuses and into parts of Asia, but basically centered on the Greek landmass, were Neanderthal man. Likely intelligent, but not very tribal, they never existed in large numbers, and as hunter-gatherers, required enormous land area for each individual (their global population probably never got much above 10,000 individuals). And in Africa, you had Cro Magnon man – basically modern humans with slightly smaller braincases, though without the stereotypical heavy brow of the Neanderthal. Cro Magnon was much more tribal, and was beginning to understand the basics of animal husbandry, which meant their populations were larger and they could support more people with less land. They began migrating out of Africa, and into Eurasia – expanding populations require expanding territory. For probably 15,000 years (a span much longer than all of recorded human history), they coexisted with Neanderthals – but whether through war, competition, or even interbreeding, Neanderthals were effectively extinct by about 30,000 years ago.

In other words, through evolutionary processes, Earth produced at *least* two intelligent species simultaneously. But do not think we “evolved from” Neanderthals – same basic species, but developed in parallel, not in sequence. Ten million years from now, barring our deliberate intervention, there will be essentially zero evidence that our civilization ever existed, probably no fossils (burial customs generally preclude it), and certainly it would take dumb luck to locate enough fossils from the past two hundred thousand years to even identify that there *were* Neanderthals and Cro-Magnon man. Bear in mind the absolutely incredibly scale we’re discussing here.

E1701 on April 18, 2008 at 6:38 PM

Red Pill on April 18, 2008 at 6:36 PM

Seriously. Think about it. Why would God create dinosaurs only to kill them off in the first book of the bible? Since, they are never mentioned again (if you assume leviathan to be a dinosaur) they had to have all been killed immediately following the Jonah incident.

lorien1973 on April 18, 2008 at 6:38 PM

Why does god hate dinosaurs? He let them all die.

lorien1973 on April 18, 2008 at 6:30 PM

This is the real reason.

right2bright on April 18, 2008 at 6:38 PM

Don’t just sit there. Start typing. We gotta’ push this thing over a thousand comments in the NEXT four hours.

CyberCipher on April 18, 2008 at 6:29 PM

heh…it’s a “comment-a-thon”! Gotta pour myself a happy-hour cocktail first. I still stick with my original comment (oh, so far back now) that creationism and evolution should both be taught in conjunction with each other. Creationism doesn’t even necessarily have to endorse any specific religious belief (I’m Catholic, btw).

Too many people think that it has to be one, or the other. When in reality, both creation and evolution go hand in hand.

JetBoy on April 18, 2008 at 6:39 PM

Why does god hate dinosaurs? He let them all die.

lorien1973 on April 18, 2008 at 6:30 PM

You are silly.

shick on April 18, 2008 at 6:39 PM

Given that the largest dinosaur was 110 ft long and the ark was 45 feet long, we have some space issues to deal with.

lorien1973 on April 18, 2008 at 6:36 PM

You never saw Honey, I shrunk the kids!?

My collie says:

Rick Moranis was brilliant in that one.

I liked him better in SpaceBalls.

CyberCipher on April 18, 2008 at 6:39 PM

Why does god hate dinosaurs? He let them all die.

lorien1973 on April 18, 2008 at 6:30 PM

You should read Genesis, if only for an academic exercise, it’s really quite interesting.

Maxx on April 18, 2008 at 6:39 PM

infidel2 on April 18, 2008 at 6:38 PM

Red Pill said so, and honestly, dude probably knows more about the Bible than I do.

I just want to know when the dinosaurs died, and more importantly, if I as a white person am to blame somehow.

the goddess anna on April 18, 2008 at 6:39 PM

Easy there, the ark was not 45 feet long.

infidel2 on April 18, 2008 at 6:37 PM

300 cubits. Make it 450 feet. The largest dinosaur is 110 feet. There were several others of that size as well. You are not fitting them in there. Ain’t happening. That’s the point.

lorien1973 on April 18, 2008 at 6:39 PM

Quick google search says it was more like 450 ft long. The college I went to built its administraion building to the ark’s specifications in length, width and height. Not shape mind you. I know for sure the building was longer than 45 feet.

infidel2 on April 18, 2008 at 6:39 PM

Given that the largest dinosaur was 110 ft long and the ark was 45 feet long, we have some space issues to deal with.

lorien1973 on April 18, 2008 at 6:36 PM

You got some information issues there.
LOL!

maynila on April 18, 2008 at 6:40 PM

Is this fun or…
WHAT…?

J_Gocht on April 18, 2008 at 6:40 PM

Maxx on April 18, 2008 at 6:39 PM

It’s a serious question. Reason it out. Why would god create a superior predator, only to have it exterminated later after Jonah got eaten by one. Did god make a mistake in their creation?

lorien1973 on April 18, 2008 at 6:41 PM

I agree. It’s a valid question.

the goddess anna on April 18, 2008 at 6:42 PM

Point taken lorien. I just knew 45 was not right and thought I’d add a few posts to the thread.

infidel2 on April 18, 2008 at 6:42 PM

@lorien1973 on April 18, 2008 at 6:39 PM

The largest dinosaur is 110 feet

Er….babies?
Isn’t Noah smart?

maynila on April 18, 2008 at 6:43 PM

This should explain everything.

Nonfactor on April 18, 2008 at 6:43 PM

lorien1973 on April 18, 2008 at 6:38 PM

Flash…the bible is not a biology book, or a geology book, it was written in ancient languages to people with limited knowledge and understanding.
We have a difficult time understanding some of the things in the bible now…at least the irrelevant things (like cloven hoofs). Do you think the Jehovah’s Witnesses would have named their paper WatchTower if they had known what a watchtower in the old testament actually was?
As Luther said, let the scientist sort out the science, and let the theologians sort out religion.

right2bright on April 18, 2008 at 6:43 PM

Seriously. Think about it. Why would God create dinosaurs only to kill them off in the first book of the bible?

If I were even 10% infinitely powerful I’d be making stuff like dinosaurs just while waiting for the bus.

exception on April 18, 2008 at 6:44 PM

The fact is, the Global Flood disproves evolution also.

All true scientific evidence proves there was a global flood.

What kind of evidence would you find if there was a global flood?

You would find billions of dead things, buried in rock layers laid down by water, all over the earth.

Not only does science prove the flood…but every culture,on every continent,has a story of the global flood.

There are over 800 global flood legends,coming from every continent on earth. Many even have a name of the man very similar to Noah. Nu,No,Na etc.

Almost all talk about him bringing the animals on the ark and many even mention the ravens and doves he let out.

The pseudo scientists deliberately do not mention the flood and look at the fossils(which are all mixed up and have NO INTERMEDIATE SPECIES) and say “this was 400 million years ago” and “I don’t know why there are no intermediate species”.

The fact is THEY HAVE BEEN LYING TO YOU!

The non scientific state religion of evolution/secular humanism is a satanic lie and the corrupt fruits of this religion have been obvious in this culture.

SaintOlaf on April 18, 2008 at 6:45 PM

Maxx on April 18, 2008 at 6:39 PM
It’s a serious question. Reason it out. Why would god create a superior predator, only to have it exterminated later after Jonah got eaten by one. Did god make a mistake in their creation?

lorien1973 on April 18, 2008 at 6:41 PM

The Fall?
I’d take Maxx’ advice.

maynila on April 18, 2008 at 6:46 PM

maynila on April 18, 2008 at 6:43 PM

So, Noah got lucky and got a bunch of newborn dinosaurs together at their smallest stages and put them in bird cages? And after the flood ended, God killed them all? He spent -all- that time gathering up these dinosaurs, dodging TRex attacks only to have god exterminate them afterwards? God really needed to pre-think his packing system on the Ark, didn’t he?

lorien1973 on April 18, 2008 at 6:46 PM

Wise Golden on April 18, 2008 at 5:33 PM

I was gonna get really upset that you struck out my name! Then I saw the apology.

Does string theory supercede the universal constant? I would expect I’d of read about that somewhere. Do you have a link that would make sense to a layman on the subject?

VolMagic on April 18, 2008 at 6:46 PM

exception on April 18, 2008 at 6:44 PM

If god views life as precious, I don’t think he’d create something then chuck it under the bus for amusement do you?

lorien1973 on April 18, 2008 at 6:46 PM

Why are some people claiming Noah had dinosaurs on the ark? Dino’s were a pre-Adamic creation…gone before man was created…

Hey, if it weren’t for dino’s, we wouldn’t have fossil fuels!

JetBoy on April 18, 2008 at 6:47 PM

The fact is, the Global Flood disproves evolution also.

There was no global flood. It’s impossible. It cannot happen.

Now, if you want to be reasonable and say the ark story came from an exagerration on a localized flood, I’d happily support that.

lorien1973 on April 18, 2008 at 6:47 PM

Epic Thread.

Absurdly off topic.

But still, an epic thread.

It’s kind of funny how much people are spoiling for a fight.

TheUnrepentantGeek on April 18, 2008 at 6:48 PM

What about unicorns? If Noah saved the dinosaurs only for God to off them later, why did the unicorns get left behind?

the goddess anna on April 18, 2008 at 6:48 PM

SaintOlaf on April 18, 2008 at 6:45 PM

I thought continental drift and the rising and lowering of the crust in various places at various times accounted for the fossil record of sea creatures found in mountains and what not.

VolMagic on April 18, 2008 at 6:49 PM

the goddess anna on April 18, 2008 at 6:48 PM

there is no fossil evidence of unicorns existing.

lorien1973 on April 18, 2008 at 6:49 PM

Were all fish on the Ark, just freshwater fish, or just marine?

Is the Ark hypothosized in ID?

exception on April 18, 2008 at 6:49 PM

@ lorien1973 on April 18, 2008
So, Noah got lucky and got a bunch of newborn dinosaurs together at their smallest stages and put them in bird cages? And after the flood ended, God killed them all?

Who said God killed them all? LOL!
We have a word for it today: EXTINCTION

maynila on April 18, 2008 at 6:50 PM

If god views life as precious, I don’t think he’d create something then chuck it under the bus for amusement do you?

lorien1973 on April 18, 2008 at 6:46 PM

Any reason for not capitalizing God? Anyhoo…species on Earth are wiped out daily. Have been since the beginning. God views “human” life as precious…the “beasts” of the Earth, He gave man dominion over.

JetBoy on April 18, 2008 at 6:50 PM

maybe global warming?

maynila on April 18, 2008 at 6:51 PM

Why are some people claiming Noah had dinosaurs on the ark? Dino’s were a pre-Adamic creation…gone before man was created…

Hey, if it weren’t for dino’s, we wouldn’t have fossil fuels!

JetBoy on April 18, 2008 at 6:47 PM

1. A person of greater faith than I believed dinos were on the ark, hence the call for proof of when they died (Job and the levi-whatever beast was the proof they were on the ark).

2. You have an excellent point there about fossil fuels.

the goddess anna on April 18, 2008 at 6:51 PM

I just want to know when the dinosaurs died, and more importantly, if I as a white person am to blame somehow.

the goddess anna on April 18, 2008 at 6:39 PM

1) White people exterminated the American Indians.

2) The American Indians invented smoking tobacco.

3) The demise of the dinosaurs was revealed many years ago in Gary Larsen’s Far Side cartoons (the dinosaurs smoked cigarettes).

My collie says:

NOW. You got all that straight?

CyberCipher on April 18, 2008 at 6:51 PM

God views “human” life as precious…the “beasts” of the Earth, He gave man dominion over.
JetBoy on April 18, 2008 at 6:50 PM

Thank you.

maynila on April 18, 2008 at 6:52 PM

E1701 on April 18, 2008 at 6:38 PM

Beautiful post.

Nonfactor on April 18, 2008 at 6:52 PM

C’mon, folks, we got to get this to 1000 comments. Christians and secularists alike working toward a common goal…warms my heart. :)

To raise another point about teaching Darwinism to school children –

I’m sure my fellow atheists don’t mind teaching that Darwinian theory has massive holes in it. As far as it’s flawed and/or incomplete, no one objects to shining light on its flaws in a classroom. But at the end of the day, “Intelligent Design” is an attempt to force government schools to bring God into the classroom. Inasmuch as God chooses not to prove His existence, a public school should not imply that He does exist. Religion is for private families.

Sometimes atheists are fairly criticized for trying to excommunicate God from the public square. Speaking for myself, that’s exactly what I favor. God has no business being on our money, or in our holidays, or in government buildings. I’m sure His feelings won’t be hurt if we ask Him to stay in private, fully-taxed (some day, I hope) churches and households where He can’t hurt anybody. After all, He’s really unpredictable.

I don’t feel that removing God from the public square would have a negative impact. You can still tell your kids whatever you want about the Designer. Just keep it to yourself. We usually don’t talk openly about other very personal matters – so let’s treat God like dirty talk and only bring it up when we’re with close friends.

Enrique on April 18, 2008 at 6:52 PM

lorien1973 on April 18, 2008 at 6:49 PM

Ah, but there are stories about them. Stories! They must have existed, because I believe that they did. Maybe their fossils got lost in the mail.

I had a point in there somewhere, but at this point, I’m pretty much just here to keep it going.

the goddess anna on April 18, 2008 at 6:52 PM

Folks, let’s give Eddy, a “one K” post…!
In record time no less!
Press the…!

RED BUTTON

…NEXT!

J_Gocht on April 18, 2008 at 6:53 PM

CyberCipher on April 18, 2008 at 6:51 PM

Finally, some resolution. I miss Far Side, good stuff.

the goddess anna on April 18, 2008 at 6:53 PM

I thought continental drift and the rising and lowering of the crust in various places at various times accounted for the fossil record of sea creatures found in mountains and what not.

VolMagic on April 18, 2008 at 6:49 PM

You thought wrong.

The flood is a scientific fact but the satanists at national geographic(who have been proven to have supressed many items and facts for years)look for any other reason to explain all of the many evidences pointing to a worldwide flood.

All archaelogical digs used to be run by “national pornographic” but now that there are so many expeditions being done they are no longer able to supress information the way they used to.

SaintOlaf on April 18, 2008 at 6:54 PM

for the goddess,
Leviathan and Behemoth

maynila on April 18, 2008 at 6:54 PM

This should explain everything.

Nonfactor on April 18, 2008 at 6:43 PM

Good one, discounting the fact the most of the great scientific discoveries were by people of faith. Yeah, that Einstein was a real closed minded guy.

“Unquestionably. No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life. How different, for instance, is the impression which we receive from an account of legendary heroes of antiquity like Theseus. Theseus and other heroes of his type lack the authentic vitality of Jesus.”

Although a Jew and he hated organized religion in this sense

I was barked at by numerous dogs who are earning their food guarding ignorance and superstition for the benefit of those who profit from it. Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is of the same kind as the intolerance of the religious fanatics and comes from the same source. They are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against the traditional “opium of the people”—cannot bear the music of the spheres. The Wonder of nature does not become smaller because one cannot measure it by the standards of human moral and human aims.

of course the opium of the people is the infamous quote of Marx.

Ummmm, what great atheist university has been built? How about that great atheist library, or hospital…yeah those atheists have really contributed to the health and welfare…don’t forget to pull out the ol “our founding fathers were atheists” card.
Because of people of faith, you get to take your family to the hospital when they are ill…and when your children (if they already haven’t) get to be higher educated in a system built by those “crazy religious fanatics”

right2bright on April 18, 2008 at 6:55 PM

the satanists at national geographic

Outstanding.

exception on April 18, 2008 at 6:56 PM

So SaintOlaf, I can be a satanist even if I don’t believe in either God or Satan? Is there a membership fee? This sounds too good to be true.

Or too over-the-top. Everyone who doesn’t agree with your belief system isn’t automatically on the side of evil incarnate.

the goddess anna on April 18, 2008 at 6:56 PM

maynila on April 18, 2008 at 6:54 PM

Thank you. I was getting Leviathan and Leviticus mixed up in my head.

the goddess anna on April 18, 2008 at 6:58 PM

I don’t know about this debate but looking forward to seeing the movie. I’ve always wondered why it is that we evolved from apes or gorillas or whatever it is those thousands of years ago and they’re still crawling around in trees. When are they gonna come down from the mountain tops, start building huts, and attacking us. Frankly, I’ve been looking forward to ‘The Planet of the Apes Real Life’ ever since I saw Charlton Heston in a loincloth (may he rest in peace).

I am also wondering when my cat and dog are gonna start talking to me and building a dog/cat condo of their own. It’s time they start pulling their weight like my children. They should be taking out the trash by now. But it’s like my liberal boyfriend keeps telling me, it’s because the white man has been holding the animals down, invading their territory, and forcing them to spend all their time hunting for food. They don’t have time to evolve into anything intellectual because they’re oppressed.

Sultry Beauty on April 18, 2008 at 6:59 PM

Leviathan and Behemoth

maynila on April 18, 2008 at 6:54 PM

They’re all extinct because Nimrod (the mighty hunter) got them all. He was the Buffalo Bill of his day.

My collie says:

But don’t mention it to the environmentalists lurking here. They get all p*ssed off when a species get hunted to extinction.

CyberCipher on April 18, 2008 at 6:59 PM

All of the earth is covered with sedimentary soil,which is laid down by…you guessed it…WATER.

If you flatten the mountains and raise the trenches the earth would be covered by almost two miles of water!

Just like it says in the Bible…after the flood had covered the whole earth…God raised the mountains and lowered the trenches.

That is where the water from the flood is .

SaintOlaf on April 18, 2008 at 7:00 PM

the “beasts” of the Earth, He gave man dominion over.

JetBoy on April 18, 2008 at 6:50 PM

This mindset is the cause of many of the Earth’s problems. The idea that humans are special, yet flawed, and that we must strive towards utopia, but that we will never reach it (again, because we are flawed). I can’t even imagine how hard it would be for people like you to realize that man is governed by the same laws of survival as the “beasts.”

Nonfactor on April 18, 2008 at 7:01 PM

the satanists at national geographic

SaintOlaf on April 18, 2008 at 6:54 PM

“There were dinosaurs on the ark” was had an early lead for my favorite post, but I think SO takes it away with this one.

e-pirate on April 18, 2008 at 7:03 PM

Good one, discounting the fact the most of the great scientific discoveries were by people of faith. Yeah, that Einstein was a real closed minded guy.

right2bright on April 18, 2008 at 6:55 PM

That picture has nothing to do with people of faith making scientific discoveries. It has everything to do with the mindset of people who think they’ve proven something via faith or who discount the complete irrationality inherent in religion.

Nonfactor on April 18, 2008 at 7:03 PM

All of the earth is covered with sedimentary soil,…

Of course it’s not. Don’t blow the simple ones; it discredits your seriously crazy stuff.

exception on April 18, 2008 at 7:04 PM

the satanists at national geographic
SaintOlaf on April 18, 2008 at 6:54 PM

No wonder…………….how about those satanists that visit you at night, you know the ones that tempt you, entice you…you want to give into them, don’t you? You know which ones I mean, beautifully bared, silken draped bodies, undulating to the pulse of your beating heart…yes, it it time to go to bed and cast off those little tempting devils…those whithering heathenetts….but you stand strong with the Word, but just once, just once, you’ll be forgiven, it’s a promise…tonight you will be forgiven.

right2bright on April 18, 2008 at 7:05 PM

If you flatten the mountains and raise the trenches the earth would be covered by almost two miles of water!

SaintOlaf on April 18, 2008 at 7:00 PM

That’s one hell of an “if” statement.

I think your argument would be better served by “the dinosaurs drank all the water and then died of hyponatremia” or something.

e-pirate on April 18, 2008 at 7:06 PM

1. A person of greater faith than I believed dinos were on the ark, hence the call for proof of when they died (Job and the levi-whatever beast was the proof they were on the ark).

2. You have an excellent point there about fossil fuels.

the goddess anna on April 18, 2008 at 6:51 PM

Ahh, but the Bible doesn’t specify what these “leviathans” and “behemoths” are…Remember, alligators are from the same period as dinos. And large birds are the closest relative.

JetBoy on April 18, 2008 at 7:07 PM

…I’m sure my fellow atheists don’t mind teaching that Darwinian theory has massive holes in it…….Religion is for private families.

Enrique on April 18, 2008 at 6:52 PM

Darwinian evolution IS a religion.

The evolutionists are the clergy of their religion.

It is not even science, in my book.

CyberCipher on April 18, 2008 at 7:07 PM

Anna,

Yes you can be a satanist even if you don’t believe in God or satan.

You can only serve one master.

Satan is the accuser who tempts mankind and leads them to sin.

Man’s basic sin is not believing in Jesus Christ.

“He that believeth on Him(Jesus) is not condemned;but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

You are either serving God or you are serving satan.

If you are not serving God…you are serving satan!

SaintOlaf on April 18, 2008 at 7:09 PM

Comment pages: 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 ... 24


You must be logged in to post a comment.