Movie Review: Expelled
posted at 3:00 pm on April 18, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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While at CPAC in February, I had an opportunity to attend an advance screening of the new documentary, Expelled: The Movie. Ben Stein focuses on a perceived lack of intellectual freedom afforded to those who either believe in or investigate Intelligent Design theories in the scientific community. I wrote the following review at the time; the producers may have made some changes since, but I don’t believe it would change the thrust of my review. I plan on seeing the theatrical release this weekend, and would recommend it to everyone as at least a way to discuss the values and limitations of scientific inquiry and intellectual openness in American Academia.
The bloggers at CPAC received an invitation to screen a new documentary on academic intolerance called Expelled: The Movie this evening. The documentary features Ben Stein on a quest to understand the near-hysteria caused by scientists who so much as broach the idea of intelligent design in papers or in research. It follows Stein as he interviews professors denied tenure, editors fired, and journalists shunned for touching the subject even at its most innocuous levels.
Before discussing my feelings about the film, which is still in post-production and will not go into release until April, I should explain my approach to the ID/evolution debate. I believe evolution is demonstrably proven in enough examples to say that its effect on variation in species cannot be denied. The example I used tonight in discussing this with another viewer (certainly not the only example) is antibiotic effects on bacteria. Antibiotics that kill 99% of bacteria eventually promote the survival and the expansion of the 1% that resist them, created superbacteria that require another set of antibiotics to cure, and so on.
That said, evolution does not interfere with my faith in God. God certainly could have created the universe with a design that included life. The rational laws of nature would include evolution, as well as the myriad of other rational and mathematically provable mechanisms that undergird nature. In fact, the impulse of man to discover the rational laws of nature began with the belief in a rational God, as scientists understood nature’s rationality to reveal an intelligent Creator.
I’d go deeper than that, but Dinesh D’Souza covers it nicely enough already in his book What’s So Great About Christianity, and it’s getting late enough as it is. Suffice it to say that evolution doesn’t present a threat to my worldview.
Rationally, we have to admit that some use ID as an excuse to teach the more literal form of Creationism that has been used to argue against evolution entirely, especially against teaching evolution in primary-school classrooms. That admission does not appear in Expelled, which is a glaring omission. It tends to take out of context the frustration some scientists have about ID, and its place in polarizing the debate over its use. Properly framed, ID accepts all of the science without accepting its transformation into its own belief system.
What do I mean by that? In this, the film does an excellent job of demonstrating atheism as a belief system. Atheism as represented by Richard Dawkings and others in this film gets exposed as exactly the kind of belief system they claim to despise. They can’t prove God exists — and they can’t prove God doesn’t exist. They make the common fallacy of arguing that absence of evidence amounts to evidence of absence.
But in a way, this is all secondary to the real issue of the film: academic intolerance. The debate over ID vs Darwinism sets the table for a truly disturbing look at academia. Science should be about the free debate and research of ideas and hypotheses for duplicable results and provable theorems. However, as the examples Stein and the film provide amply show, the Darwinist academic establishment will brook no dissent from the orthodoxy — and scientists have to be shown with hidden faces to speak to the issue for the film.
Amusingly, Stein asks people how the first cell came to be. None of the scientists could give him a straight answer. Dawkins himself admits he doesn’t know and that no one else does, either — but postulates that aliens could have brought life to this planet, and then postulates that another alien civilization could have brought life to that planet, and so on. He then concedes that one entity could have been the original source … but insists that entity could not possibly have been God. For this he gives absolutely no evidence at all, relegating it as a belief system somewhat akin to Scientology.
All of this is extremely effective, as are the many allusions made to the Berlin Wall during the film. The theme runs throughout, and it explicitly refers to the defensive academic establishment as having built a wall that tramples on freedom of thought and discourse. Less effective is the heavy references to the Nazis in the movie. Although emotionally affecting for some obvious reasons, the fact is that while the Nazis were mostly Darwinists (along with a lot of other things), the vast majority of Darwinists aren’t Nazis. Certainly the eugenicists in Nazi Germany were mightily influenced by Darwinism, but America had its own eugenicists, which the film points out.
I should point out that the film has not finished production, and that changes will be made between now and its release in April. The filmmakers just completed an interview with Christopher Hitchens and will include it in the final cut. I believe other changes may be made which could address some of the criticisms I’ve written here.
Overall, though, the film presents a powerful argument not for intelligent design as much as for the freedom of scientific inquiry. If scientists get punished for challenging orthodoxy, we will not expand our learning but ossify it in concrete. Expelled: The Movie is entertaining, maddening, funny, and provocative, and well worth your time.
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Um, I believe that life on Earth evolved, starting out simply enough and moving on to more complex things. While this is my personal belief, I still would like to see this movie. I happen to like Ben Stein. I don’t understand why there’s so much anamosity and bickering between people here… is there that much chance that another person’s opinion might be changed? You can tell me I’m going to hell all you want for not believing in your God, but it’s not going to change the way I feel.
The other point I’d like to bring up is that evolutionists, as I guess we’re called, do not believe that man evolved from monkeys. Monkeys, apes, chimps, etc., and man all evolved from a common ancestor… which is different than saying the monkey at the zoo is my great-grandfather or something. Considering how modern primates (other than us) exhibit quite a bit of intelligence (more than some humans, it seems), it shouldn’t be such an insult to our sensibilities to believe we are all related.
And yeah, I can’t spell today. I’ve been sanding, and my fingers are still all tingly – making it hard to type. Also, I’m too lazy to look stuff up right now. : )
the goddess anna on April 18, 2008 at 4:08 PM
Well, I intend to see this. I just checked my local listings and it’s playing a half hour away from me.
** going to beg hubby for movie money when he gets home **
ScoopPC11 on April 18, 2008 at 4:08 PM
If ID was to be taught in schools, what would the 2nd day’s lesson be?
Creationists are being set up for failure by these ID folks. Bring faith to the science realm and faith loses. Just as if a scientist brought his science kit to a church, a faith realm, he would lose. Both instances would be an annoyance.
That being said, there isn’t much practical value in teaching darwinism in primary schools. In that it might contradict some people’s faith teachings, that is all the more reason not to apportion school time on the topic when they could be learning something practical.
Buddahpundit on April 18, 2008 at 4:10 PM
This is a very typical example of an angry atheist lashing out at creationists with dripping hatred, and that without having any facts on his side.
Scientists look BACK IN TIME? Wow! You mean in their super fantastic intergalactic time machine?
And the earth is older than 6000 years, but not much older. Certainly not millions. And this has not been proven, either.
fossten on April 18, 2008 at 4:10 PM
This isn’t an ID movie, it’s a movie about academia. ID is just the perfect jumping-off point to show what is wrong with academia.
I somewhat doubt Stein is an ID’er…
RiverCocytus on April 18, 2008 at 4:11 PM
I am talking about all unproven scientific theory, be it ID, evolution, anthropomorphic global warming — or global warming at all for that matter — or (from a historic perspective) that the Earth is round.
db on April 18, 2008 at 4:11 PM
Not wanting to pick on you, but if you remember anything of the evolution lessons you learned in grade school, the teaching is very clear, humans evolved from apes. There’s no getting around that. Nobody said the monkey at the zoo is your direct relative, but then again, evolution doesn’t say that it isn’t, either. Either way, I encourage you to go back and re-read your old texts. You might be surprised at what’s in there.
fossten on April 18, 2008 at 4:12 PM
Therein lies the problem. This is not Darwinian evolution, nor does variation within species disprove Creation.
Darwinian evolution teaches that ONE species evolved into an entirely DIFFERENT species. And that’s where the evidence breaks down. Just the mathematical impossibility of writing new DNA precludes Darwinian evolution.
Yes, there is evidence of different breeding within dogs, for example, but there is no evidence whatsoever that proves that a reptile became a bird. Such are the teachings of evolution.
fossten on April 18, 2008 at 3:10 PM
Ding. Ding! DING!!
We have a winner. In short: natural selection, Yes (or, as darwin later postulated – sexual selection);;; macro evolutionary change, No.
Plus, animal husbandry – like dog breeding – is an intelligently guided, purposeful process.
And ’super bacteria’ resulting from man made antibiotics is simply the manifestation of variations in an already existing gene pool – no new information was created. Natural selction, Yes. Macro evolutionary change, No.
locomotivebreath1901 on April 18, 2008 at 4:13 PM
Sorry Ed, but I’ve gotta go back to what I said about this on CQ when you first reviewed the trailer for this movie.
I love Ben Stein, and he’s a brilliant guy – but he’s picking the wrong fight here. If you want to talk about some of the poor science being bandied about by atheists who don’t really know anything about evolutionary theory, that’s good material. If you want to talk about academic intolerance, look no further than the High Church of Global Warming (and Al Gore is its prophet…). Want to argue the ways in which hardcore atheism has turned itself into a religion? Could be a blockbuster. If you want to discuss the philosophical position of Intelligent Design, by all means, should make for an interesting movie.
But the argument presented in this movie, that Intelligent Design is being unfairly given the academic shaft, just doesn’t work at the most basic level. Intelligent Design is not science – it’s a philosophy you can turn to when the science has temporarily dead-ended, and is therefore at the academic level nothing more than an interesting intellectual exercise… but it should not be confused with science. ID is not a hypothesis that can be modeled or tested until someone can scientifically prove the existence of God.
It’s also more than a little intellectually lazy – instead of taking some of the unexplained/unknown aspects of evolutionary theory (which by definition is open to new evidence and revision) and attempting to backtrack along a scientific path, ID basically drops a brick on scientific inquiry and says, “Nope, we can stop here… this is too complicated, ergo God did it.”
And there are theories (and better ones that Dawkins’) regarding the origin of organic life… and the more evidence we collect, the more possibilities open up.
This is not helped of course by the aforementioned poor understanding of evolutionary theory to begin with, and one that is widely taught in public school science cirriculums. Those misunderstandings lead to people scoffing at the idea of a lightning strike in the primeval ocean miraculously causing “life” to start like a switch flicking on, or that, as one of commenter said above, “a reptile becomes a bird.” For that matter, even the idea of “survival of the fittest” is a terrible oversimplification of Darwin’s ideas, and his were the beginning, not the end, of evolutionary theory.
The truth is that the entire issue is extremely complex. Our very definition of what constitutes “life” is always in flux… biological definitions of what constitutes “life” change almost day to day as we learn more about it. The distinction between “not-life” and “life” is much finer than most people care to realize. We’re also learning that organic compounds are not particularly unique, or difficult to create as originally assumed – we’ve even come to the point where some geologists are making the case that crude oil, once assumed to be the remains of ancient plants, may in fact be a geologic chemical process. Even self-replication can’t be a criteria unless you consider crystal formations and fire to be “alive.” Even our definition of “species” is subject to debate.
And the reptile or dinosaur to bird idea is not so simple. A species of dinosaur did not spontaneously grow wings and decide to fly one day. What you would have seen – over the course of some 240 million years, is a very gradual series of alterations brought about by adaptation to a million and one factors. A member of one species might mutate a scale or flap of skin that provides some advantage… maybe better heat dissipation. A million other mutations would have been useless or actively bad, like albinism in deer (white deer rarely last long in any environment with predators). So the animal with the skin flaps would have been better suited to survival, and over the course of many thousands of years, would dominate the local gene pool. And in succeeding generations, mutations make that flap longer, thinner, or lighter, maybe bring some veins to the surface to better cool the animal. In a million years, you’ve got a very similar animal with what amounts to rudimentary feathers, which could no longer interbreed with the original population. Now that population could still be wiped out – an ice age, new predator, or a big rock smacking into the planet. The history of evolution would be filled with such “dead-ends” – we know of several in our own evolutionary past, the last of which went extinct not long before we developed civilization. So it’s not a dinosaur turning into a bird – but a dinosaur becoming a slightly more birdlike dinosaur. For millions of years. And with no clear dilineation, about ten million years later, you see a descendent of that first scaly creature, and say oh, a primitive bird! There’s no magic slash you can draw between when it stops being a dinosaur and starts being a bird… it just looks that way when you see fossils seperated by fifty million years of time. Probably 99% of the species that ever existed on Earth are not only extinct, but left no fossils (which requires a pretty specific set of circumstances).
The other misunderstanding is that evolution simply “stops.” We hear often repeated hyperbolically on TV and in the news that animals like sharks and crocodiles are “living fossils!” or that ceolocanth was discovered not to have gone extinct after all. The truth is though, that a modern shark is *not* the same shark that swam the oceans 100 million years ago… it’s that shark with 100 million years of evolution behind it. Same with crocodiles and alligators… they aren’t the same animals, although very similar and descended from, animals that lived 200 million years ago.
So evolutionary theory cannot explain everything – but that’s expected. We haven’t learned everything, nor will we ever, likely. But every new thing we do learn allows us to revise the theory to fit the facts.
Intelligent Design fails as a science because it *can’t* be revised to explain the otherwise inexplicable. My favorite is the shape of the human throat, which is actually an evolutionary *goof* designed into all air-breathing vertebrates. But it’s not one that adversely affects our chances for survival (barring some outlandish change in conditions). Namely we all respirate and ingest through the same pipe – which is a poor design, because it allows for aspiration and that old formal dinner favorite, water “going down the wrong pipe.” An intelligent design would be a separate trachea and esophagus… then you can even breathe and eat at the same time (I won’t even comment on the effect that would have on the porn industry :p ). Evolution explains that problem easily – triploblasts developed initially along the simple mechanism of “one orifice in, one orifice out”, and because it was successful and never detrimental, that’s the basic design of our own bodies.
Intelligent Design, faced with such a conundrum of *poor* design, must fall back on “God has a reason.” And that right there disqualifies it as a science. I’m not saying there is no God, nor that he *didn’t* design life according to a plan we don’t comprehend. But that’s a philosophical and religious argument, not a scientific one, and doesn’t deserve to be treated as though it were by academia.
E1701 on April 18, 2008 at 4:14 PM
I’d like to see that. I imagine the Kool-Aid man, or Grimace.
Big S on April 18, 2008 at 4:14 PM
I betting on a ‘600 response’ for this post. Who’s in??
locomotivebreath1901 on April 18, 2008 at 4:15 PM
I didnt call you an idiot, the scientific community did.
Squid Shark on April 18, 2008 at 4:16 PM
Well then you have to depend on the fossils, right? Care to review the list of so-called missing links that turned out to be frauds, or would you like to take a shortcut and just concede the point that evolution has no intermediates?
fossten on April 18, 2008 at 4:16 PM
You guys need to just give up!
You will never know the true answer till you appease Xenu and L R Hubbard with 4 or 5 million bucks.
TheSitRep on April 18, 2008 at 4:16 PM
If you wish to believe that man “evolved” from some primordial ooze billions of years ago…ok. As for me I will believe that we were wonderfully created by a loving God! We are too complex to have just happened by chance and the only thing that the evolutionist has is “life may have come from aliens”! C’mon! There is zero scientific proof for Evolution. It is a theory which has never ever been proven and never will be but it’s believers are strident and true blue! Too bad they have adopted junk science…kind of reminds one of the “Global Warming Hoax”…
sabbott on April 18, 2008 at 4:17 PM
Dude, this movie really isn’t about ID.
Also, the Greeks knew the world was round for a long time. Some people were either just ignorant of this simple observation or willfully negligent.
The sharp ‘divide’ I see being cited between ’science’ and ‘faith’ is illusory.
RiverCocytus on April 18, 2008 at 4:18 PM
Which brings us full circle. You might want to go see the movie, since it deals with that very issue. Thank you for proving my point.
fossten on April 18, 2008 at 4:18 PM
Nope, they weren’t apes back then. Apes have only really existed for as long as we have. The common ancestor has a different scientific name, as was not called an ape. I took advanced biology, but it’s been about 12 years, and physics is more my thing.
Of course, maybe what’s taught has changed since I was in school.
the goddess anna on April 18, 2008 at 4:19 PM
It’s interesting to see who the real “Agents of Intolerance” are…
Red Pill on April 18, 2008 at 4:19 PM
Thats an interesting view, but I think you need to read up on your Kepler my friend…Science and religion need not be schism’d so.
MechEng5by5 on April 18, 2008 at 4:20 PM
Fossils are incredibly unreliable, since only 1/1000 of one percent become fossils, there are alot of missing links.
And some on that list are perfectly well proven, except in the dreams of creationists.
Squid Shark on April 18, 2008 at 4:21 PM
At the risk of repeating myself, I encourage you to visit this site. It explains the lack of intermediates and why/how they all turned out to be frauds.
fossten on April 18, 2008 at 4:21 PM
It fails because there are flaws???
…and the flaws in evolution are thereby ignored because…?
Ah, the sound of silence.
MadisonConservative on April 18, 2008 at 4:21 PM
No, the Theory of Evolution is taken on faith, and science loses.
Red Pill on April 18, 2008 at 4:21 PM
Lance Winslow created the Universe.
And everything in it.
Including chuck Norris.
catmman on April 18, 2008 at 4:21 PM
Ah, backpedaling some more? Then you have nothing. So your belief system is based entirely on faith and not science.
fossten on April 18, 2008 at 4:21 PM
Do you propose that events such as missense mutations and genetic transpositions, to name two simple known processes, create no new information?
Big S on April 18, 2008 at 4:22 PM
Ive got better things to do this weekend, maybe when it comes out on DVD I will buy it out of the 5.99 bin at Wal Mart
Squid Shark on April 18, 2008 at 4:22 PM
Good one!
Yeah, oops. That what happens when my fingers move faster than my brain.
anthropogenic global warming
db on April 18, 2008 at 4:22 PM
While looking for the book I have somewhere (think it’s packed) about evolution, I found another book worth sharing. It’s called the Beak of the Finch, and it’s a really good study of natural selection in the real world (and it’s not just finches). By Jonathan Weiner.
the goddess anna on April 18, 2008 at 4:23 PM
“This whole parasitical argument for Evolutionism is a classic case of the logical fallacy of the faulty dilemma: two cases are presented as the only possibilities”
http://forgottenprophets.blogspot.com/2007/11/uninvited-guests.html
MechEng5by5 on April 18, 2008 at 4:24 PM
Back pedaling? My acceptance of evolution is based on more than just the fossil record.
Squid Shark on April 18, 2008 at 4:25 PM
Mutations tend to be harmful, not helpful. This is not a good argument, as evolution depends on ALL mutations being helpful in order for the creature in question to advance. Otherwise it dies.
fossten on April 18, 2008 at 4:25 PM
I don’t trust 99% of the crap on the internet. You’re not going to convince me (but go ahead and pray for me if it makes you feel better). I was just trying to correct a common misconception (man from monkey, as opposed to common ancestor), not trying to convince you.
the goddess anna on April 18, 2008 at 4:26 PM
Yet you just acknowledged that there are no intermediates, i.e. missing links.
Okay, you don’t have the fossils, how about mathematics? Consider this excerpt written by a PhD recently:
fossten on April 18, 2008 at 4:26 PM
Your example of bacteria adapting to an anti-biotic might disprove creationish (which I don’t believe in), but it doesn’t even address the issues raised by Intelligent Design.
MarkTheGreat on April 18, 2008 at 4:26 PM
I can’t wait to see the movie. I found this when Derbyshire was scoffing at it:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4609561480192587449&hl=en
Good viewing. I really like the “Chance has no power” part. It also ties into the fixed nature of future events, something I always had an affinity for when I took a philosophy class.
Of course, the part about academia being closed-minded has been obvious for quite some time. I believe someone wrote a book about it:
http://www.amazon.com/Closing-American-Mind-Allan-Bloom/dp/0671657151
VolMagic on April 18, 2008 at 4:27 PM
Fine, then don’t look it up on the web. Look, every single one of the supposed missing links was found to be a fraud. Go look it up yourself somewhere else. But it’s common knowledge, and even made the news each time it was borne out.
And despite your misplaced sarcasm, I will pray for you.
fossten on April 18, 2008 at 4:28 PM
I never said there were none, there are several in fact, some even on your list of “fakes”
Squid Shark on April 18, 2008 at 4:29 PM
please allow me to take you all back to where this argument always ends…
if god created the universe, then who created god, if god did not create the universe then what was there before the universe began?
just to close this up for you fast… the answer to both questions is… there is no answer that we are capable of knowing.
Kaptain Amerika on April 18, 2008 at 4:29 PM
Chort! I just realized I’ve been debating a Paulbot. I officially give up now.
They’re just too darn enthusiastic about debating (not that that’s a bad thing) for me.
the goddess anna on April 18, 2008 at 4:30 PM
that’s why I’m Agnostic.
Kaptain Amerika on April 18, 2008 at 4:30 PM
You are operating in self delusion now. Please, please, please show me where any of the fraudulent missing links were ACTUALLY real.
I await with bated breath.
fossten on April 18, 2008 at 4:30 PM
@ fossten on April 18, 2008 at 4:25 PM
You obviously have no clue about anything going on in the scientific community. Yes, scientists are looking back in time. If you knew anything about physics or could understand pretty basic science, you would see how this is possible. And I also love how you try and relate scientists to the ridiculousness of religion by saying that people who believe in it are simply doing so upon faith. Its such a dumb argument. There is a GIGANTIC body of evidence for evolution, and there is not a single fact backing up ID.
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2003/0206mapresults.html
muyoso on April 18, 2008 at 4:31 PM
And no, I sincerely appreciate people praying for me, but only if they really mean it. I take it as a gesture of compassion.
So no sarcasm.
the goddess anna on April 18, 2008 at 4:31 PM
Whatever excuse you need to feel comfortable with running away with your tail between your legs is fine with me. But you expose your own flaws with your name calling and invective. I have not done so with you.
fossten on April 18, 2008 at 4:31 PM
You say the earth is “certainly not millions” of years old. There are numerous examples that could be pointed to, but I will use that of the Oklo natural nuclear reactor. The uranium isotope ratio in this area looks exactly as it would if a natural nuclear reaction had started and then stopped 1.7 billion years ago.
If we accept your thesis that the earth is only a few thousand years old, we would also have to accept the thesis that God is intentionally trying to trick scientists into not believing in him, by making all natural phenomena appear exactly as they would appear if he didn’t exist. Fortunately, though, due most likely to sheer ignorance of all things geological, cosmological, and biological, you were not fooled like those infidel eggheads. Keep the faith, man.
hicsuget on April 18, 2008 at 4:32 PM
Really? Well I’m a big creationist/ID kind of guy and one of my arguments against evolution is that no fossil record exist to support the theory. Have evolutionist found the fossil records and forgot to tell anyone?
You know, for every species it stands to reason that there would have been many transitional species….. dinosaurs to birds for example. I would think that would require a few steps at least.
And of course the transitional species would have required time to develop so there should have been many generation of them. Where are they? There should be mountains of transitional fossils if evolution were true…. but there are none. Thus…. evolution just didn’t happen (period).
Evolutionists don’t debate ID’ers because evolutionist don’t have any answers, so they run from the debate.
Maxx on April 18, 2008 at 4:32 PM
The problem with your entire statement is that you are blind to the truth. If you want to play copy/paste links, I can do hundreds of them. But you won’t read them, will you? So there isn’t any point. Besides, you have no credibility due to all your yelling and name calling.
Have a nice day.
fossten on April 18, 2008 at 4:33 PM
@ fossten on April 18, 2008 at 4:30 PM
You want missing links? Of course you wont google that simple phrase, because the big bad internet with the GIGANTIC body of
scientific published literature does not agree with your fairy tale.
http://www.physorg.com/news96956559.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/05/science/05cnd-fossil.html?ex=1301889600&en=c43e5d13b1dd0cb2&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
muyoso on April 18, 2008 at 4:33 PM
There has to be a Creator. you just don’t get something from nothing.
CliffHanger on April 18, 2008 at 4:33 PM
God’s definition of a fool:
And, just to make sure we get the message, He repeats it:
Red Pill on April 18, 2008 at 4:33 PM
@ fossten on April 18, 2008 at 4:33 PM
I am sure I read most of the things you will link to. I have had this argument with my friends many a time. Link away. Please show me valid proof that shows evolution is wrong, and/or that ID has ANY credibility.
muyoso on April 18, 2008 at 4:34 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_ergaster
was this Adam or Eve?
Kaptain Amerika on April 18, 2008 at 4:34 PM
@ Maxx on April 18, 2008 at 4:32 PM
Look up lung fish, that is very possibly a LIVING missing link.
muyoso on April 18, 2008 at 4:35 PM
I am flawed, but I have no tail. If I did, that’d be pretty cool though, especially if it were prehensile. I could use it as a third hand when all my kids are acting up!
Okay, back to here and now. I brought that up because you are relentless. You are not convincing anybody that they’er wrong (or you’re right, for that matter). But you’ll keep going and going… at least until we all find better things to do (must. finish. cabinets.)
the goddess anna on April 18, 2008 at 4:35 PM
Easy there mucus, we can discuss things without resorting to Ad-hom name-calling.
MechEng5by5 on April 18, 2008 at 4:35 PM
fossten:
The death that the Bible talks about is spiritual death, not physical death.
MarkTheGreat on April 18, 2008 at 4:35 PM
The isotope dating methods have been shown to be faulty. I’d post a link, but I’m getting off work.
Your argument that therefore God must…etc. is a non sequitur. God has designed a very complex universe that man couldn’t possibly replicate, and chance mathematically could NEVER replicate, and yet you say there is no evidence of a designer. That’s funny. I guess you see that computer in front of you and think that it fell into place during a tornado in a junkyard, right?
fossten on April 18, 2008 at 4:36 PM
Incorrect. All evolution needs is information and a means to select some information over other information. The comment I responded to accepted this, but asserted that the information pool is limited, thereby limiting the scope of evolution. My comment was meant to point out that there are means of producing new information within that pool by chance (there’s that darned Second Law again!)
Big S on April 18, 2008 at 4:36 PM
I’ve done this argument many times before and won’t bother getting into one with the weekend just minutes away. I look forward to watching the movie and hope it does well.
It’s a messed up world when Truthers can get tenure and those who support ID have to hide their faces to publicly admit it.
Esthier on April 18, 2008 at 4:36 PM
@ fossten on April 18, 2008 at 4:33 PM
Blind to the truth huh? Coming from the person who relies on a SINGLE book for the entirety of human and world history? From the person who does not allow for any change, because the bible doesnt allow for it.
muyoso on April 18, 2008 at 4:36 PM
That is a half truth. You haven’t read the entire Bible. Good luck with that, let me know when you catch up.
fossten on April 18, 2008 at 4:37 PM
The 2nd law of thermodynamics only applies to closed systems.
A living body is not a closed system, and the 2nd law has absolutely zero impact on the evolutionary argument.
Please learn to have valid arguments.
MarkTheGreat on April 18, 2008 at 4:37 PM
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. /SNARK
hicsuget on April 18, 2008 at 4:37 PM
And the Creator is always greater than that which is created. Man can create a watch, but the watch is not greater than the man who created it. Any fool who saw the watch would know that it was created and didn’t just come together on its own. Our bodies are millions of times more complex than that watch, yet some people still fail to recognize the Creator.
Red Pill on April 18, 2008 at 4:37 PM
I think the problem is that creationsist simply dont know what evolution is. They just dont understand the concept. Some think that one day a monkey birthed a human, and that is just stupid.
muyoso on April 18, 2008 at 4:38 PM
And muyoso, please read this… http://forgottenprophets.blogspot.com/2007/11/uninvited-guests.html
MechEng5by5 on April 18, 2008 at 4:38 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hominina_fossils
so these are all fakes? mmm someone should tell wikipedia.
Kaptain Amerika on April 18, 2008 at 4:38 PM
fossten:
I have read the entire Bible. Unlike you, I’m not stupid enough to believe that every word in it is literally true.
The Bible contains many truths within truths.
MarkTheGreat on April 18, 2008 at 4:38 PM
Actually I’ve read hundreds of articles and books on the subject, and my father, a PhD and a physicist, has hundreds of books on the subject. Nice try. Let me know when you catch up.
fossten on April 18, 2008 at 4:38 PM
OK Dr. Hovind.
This is one of my preferred references.
http://talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html
Squid Shark on April 18, 2008 at 4:39 PM
I completely agree with that! And I guess it is almost the weekend, isn’t it? Yay for Friday and BSG.
the goddess anna on April 18, 2008 at 4:39 PM
Go back and re-read it, name caller. You missed something. And you just lost your credibility.
Have a good weekend, all, time to go home.
fossten on April 18, 2008 at 4:39 PM
My dad was a cop, does not mean I can arrest people.
Squid Shark on April 18, 2008 at 4:40 PM
Tell me that when the universe reaches heat death…
MechEng5by5 on April 18, 2008 at 4:40 PM
Thought so. You aren’t interested in a website that debunks that, I suppose. But it’s out there.
http://www.trueorigin.org
fossten on April 18, 2008 at 4:41 PM
Maybe higher…
Red Pill on April 18, 2008 at 4:41 PM
If your quotes are intended for me, you have misunderstood.
db on April 18, 2008 at 4:41 PM
Starts loosing, runs home.
Later Ken.
Squid Shark on April 18, 2008 at 4:41 PM
Brilliant argument. I really mean that. NOT.
Cya later.
fossten on April 18, 2008 at 4:42 PM
Bingo.
see the Sproul/Stein interview linked above. Also, “Something coming from nothing” is about as Anti-Science as you can get and violates the most basic fundamentals of Logic.
David Hume’s problem with induction is intersting problem for naturalist as well.
jp on April 18, 2008 at 4:42 PM
Stein says here (in the “Super Movie Trailer”) that he believes God created all things.
Maxx on April 18, 2008 at 4:42 PM
But it’s such a fun and easy way to put off what really needs to be done!
the goddess anna on April 18, 2008 at 4:42 PM
fosten
Man did not descend from the monkeys. They had a common ancestor.
If you don’t want to look like an idiot, you should at least try to understand the other sides arguments. You demand it of others.
MarkTheGreat on April 18, 2008 at 4:42 PM
…unless the evolutionists decide not to participate in a debate (which, of course, is the whole premise of the movie!)
Red Pill on April 18, 2008 at 4:42 PM
The terms are synonymous, it’s Orwellian to argue otherwise.
I couldn’t very well review it since the producers didn’t screen it for critics, which was my point. :)
Enrique on April 18, 2008 at 4:43 PM
Don’t bother, he won’t listen. Tried that earlier.
the goddess anna on April 18, 2008 at 4:43 PM
Assumptions, assumptions
Ill read it…I hope you read mine too.
Squid Shark on April 18, 2008 at 4:43 PM
Squid Shark,
YOu have to understand that fossten is one of those people who actually believes that only his interpretation of the Bible is the correct one.
Kind of like the way you believe that only your belief regarding evolution is the correct one.
Equally dogmatic, equally wrong.
MarkTheGreat on April 18, 2008 at 4:44 PM
Hahah, unlike you I dont claim to be some sort of expert because I read a few articles. Have a nice day :)
I will pray for you too.
Squid Shark on April 18, 2008 at 4:45 PM
Viscount_Bolingbroke:
Bad analogy. The correct one is, if it can’t disprove a hypothesis, then it hasn’t been disproven.
Atheists believe that since others can’t prove that God exists, therefore he doesn’t.
This is faulty logic.
MarkTheGreat on April 18, 2008 at 4:46 PM
I only have to debate him on the first have, his Greek books dont play my way.
Squid Shark on April 18, 2008 at 4:47 PM
You’re right about the system boundaries argument, but the 2nd Law does make an appearance, if not an obvious one, in the probability distributions of different available outcomes in processes such as DNA replication, and protein synthesis.
Big S on April 18, 2008 at 4:48 PM
Sorry that I wasn’t more clear…I am in agreement with you and was trying to draw the connection between “idiot” and “fool”…(they are roughly equivalent words). My post was meant to back up your post, not rebut it.
Red Pill on April 18, 2008 at 4:48 PM
Oy!
Nolamom67 on April 18, 2008 at 4:48 PM
Let me just point out that the claim that evolution is somehow inconsistent with Christianity is something that atheists came up with in order to create the false dilemma that there is a conflict between science and religion, and so we have to choose one or the other. When Christians accept that evolution is incompatible with Christianity, they are allowing atheists to define the terms of the debate, including Christian doctrine. I don’t think that’s wise.
JS on April 18, 2008 at 4:48 PM
you can thank me, I emailed that Video to Derbyshire. was absolute shocked when he posted it that night, though not suprised at his only watching the first 5 minutes. Which the best part is the last 5 minutes.
jp on April 18, 2008 at 4:49 PM
Vey!
Squid Shark on April 18, 2008 at 4:49 PM
JS on April 18, 2008 at 4:48 PM
Kant redux. Good show.
VolMagic on April 18, 2008 at 4:50 PM
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