Movie Review: Expelled
posted at 3:00 pm on April 18, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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While at CPAC in February, I had an opportunity to attend an advance screening of the new documentary, Expelled: The Movie. Ben Stein focuses on a perceived lack of intellectual freedom afforded to those who either believe in or investigate Intelligent Design theories in the scientific community. I wrote the following review at the time; the producers may have made some changes since, but I don’t believe it would change the thrust of my review. I plan on seeing the theatrical release this weekend, and would recommend it to everyone as at least a way to discuss the values and limitations of scientific inquiry and intellectual openness in American Academia.
The bloggers at CPAC received an invitation to screen a new documentary on academic intolerance called Expelled: The Movie this evening. The documentary features Ben Stein on a quest to understand the near-hysteria caused by scientists who so much as broach the idea of intelligent design in papers or in research. It follows Stein as he interviews professors denied tenure, editors fired, and journalists shunned for touching the subject even at its most innocuous levels.
Before discussing my feelings about the film, which is still in post-production and will not go into release until April, I should explain my approach to the ID/evolution debate. I believe evolution is demonstrably proven in enough examples to say that its effect on variation in species cannot be denied. The example I used tonight in discussing this with another viewer (certainly not the only example) is antibiotic effects on bacteria. Antibiotics that kill 99% of bacteria eventually promote the survival and the expansion of the 1% that resist them, created superbacteria that require another set of antibiotics to cure, and so on.
That said, evolution does not interfere with my faith in God. God certainly could have created the universe with a design that included life. The rational laws of nature would include evolution, as well as the myriad of other rational and mathematically provable mechanisms that undergird nature. In fact, the impulse of man to discover the rational laws of nature began with the belief in a rational God, as scientists understood nature’s rationality to reveal an intelligent Creator.
I’d go deeper than that, but Dinesh D’Souza covers it nicely enough already in his book What’s So Great About Christianity, and it’s getting late enough as it is. Suffice it to say that evolution doesn’t present a threat to my worldview.
Rationally, we have to admit that some use ID as an excuse to teach the more literal form of Creationism that has been used to argue against evolution entirely, especially against teaching evolution in primary-school classrooms. That admission does not appear in Expelled, which is a glaring omission. It tends to take out of context the frustration some scientists have about ID, and its place in polarizing the debate over its use. Properly framed, ID accepts all of the science without accepting its transformation into its own belief system.
What do I mean by that? In this, the film does an excellent job of demonstrating atheism as a belief system. Atheism as represented by Richard Dawkings and others in this film gets exposed as exactly the kind of belief system they claim to despise. They can’t prove God exists — and they can’t prove God doesn’t exist. They make the common fallacy of arguing that absence of evidence amounts to evidence of absence.
But in a way, this is all secondary to the real issue of the film: academic intolerance. The debate over ID vs Darwinism sets the table for a truly disturbing look at academia. Science should be about the free debate and research of ideas and hypotheses for duplicable results and provable theorems. However, as the examples Stein and the film provide amply show, the Darwinist academic establishment will brook no dissent from the orthodoxy — and scientists have to be shown with hidden faces to speak to the issue for the film.
Amusingly, Stein asks people how the first cell came to be. None of the scientists could give him a straight answer. Dawkins himself admits he doesn’t know and that no one else does, either — but postulates that aliens could have brought life to this planet, and then postulates that another alien civilization could have brought life to that planet, and so on. He then concedes that one entity could have been the original source … but insists that entity could not possibly have been God. For this he gives absolutely no evidence at all, relegating it as a belief system somewhat akin to Scientology.
All of this is extremely effective, as are the many allusions made to the Berlin Wall during the film. The theme runs throughout, and it explicitly refers to the defensive academic establishment as having built a wall that tramples on freedom of thought and discourse. Less effective is the heavy references to the Nazis in the movie. Although emotionally affecting for some obvious reasons, the fact is that while the Nazis were mostly Darwinists (along with a lot of other things), the vast majority of Darwinists aren’t Nazis. Certainly the eugenicists in Nazi Germany were mightily influenced by Darwinism, but America had its own eugenicists, which the film points out.
I should point out that the film has not finished production, and that changes will be made between now and its release in April. The filmmakers just completed an interview with Christopher Hitchens and will include it in the final cut. I believe other changes may be made which could address some of the criticisms I’ve written here.
Overall, though, the film presents a powerful argument not for intelligent design as much as for the freedom of scientific inquiry. If scientists get punished for challenging orthodoxy, we will not expand our learning but ossify it in concrete. Expelled: The Movie is entertaining, maddening, funny, and provocative, and well worth your time.
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@ TheCulturalist on April 19, 2008 at 1:21 AM
I don’t take kindly the dissemination of outright lies on forums that I read. I am not here to convince anyone, but I won’t allow creationists to sit here and completely misrepresent something I believe in, lie about it, and claim it isnt real based on nothing more than appealing to a book written by dozens 300 years after the events.
muyoso on April 19, 2008 at 1:23 AM
Correct by definition.
Nope.
3. there is no after life.You can belive in an afterlife without a god.
4. there is no such thing as sin, it is a fairy tale.Really very wrong.
exception on April 19, 2008 at 1:24 AM
@ TheCulturalist on April 19, 2008 at 1:22 AM
He wont get a response from me. I am not the one who made the claim.
muyoso on April 19, 2008 at 1:24 AM
read some of muyoso’s posts, or ask muyoso for that matter… best to go to the source.I didn’t ask about his principles.
exception on April 19, 2008 at 1:25 AM
Oh, SPAN!
exception on April 19, 2008 at 1:25 AM
Question: 1+1=?
Rule: You cannot answer 2.
Given that parameter, answer the question. What is 1+1?
Foolish rule? Sure it is.
It’s also foolish to omit God when you haven’t even disproven His existence. Or, if you believe in a God, haven’t proven that He just “stands back” refusing to get involved with any part of the creation.
Thinking that science is completely separate from the God factor is only wishful thinking–not true science.
Skidd on April 19, 2008 at 1:26 AM
@ WastelandMan on April 19, 2008 at 1:19 AM
1. True
2. False
3. Same as 1
4. Same as 1
So pretty much, the only principles of an atheist are “There is no God” and “Science can be used to explain the universe we live in”.
muyoso on April 19, 2008 at 1:26 AM
Sigh…
I said generalizing… I was GENERALIZING LOL
or do you speak for all atheists? that would make you like a priest in that belief system wouldn’t it? or do you still believe its not a kind of religious belief when you CAN define it?
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on April 19, 2008 at 1:27 AM
E1701,
What makes you so sure about that?
The point of this movie is that the “Scientific” community leaders practice the worst forms of censorship and intimidation.
So the point is we know they have been lying to us,threatening,censoring,not publishing,denying tenure,blacklisting and even jailing all scientists who publish findings contrary to evolution.
It is intimidation and censorship of the worst kind.
I just don’t get your logic….”They’ve been lying to us but I’m going to believe them on the geological record?”
Does that make any sense?
The fact is there was a global flood.
True science points that out.
And if that’s true your geological record is useless.
SaintOlaf on April 19, 2008 at 1:28 AM
Well, science can be used to explain what it can. Success isn’t gauranteed.
exception on April 19, 2008 at 1:28 AM
Is Christ and God one and the same? Do you pray to Christ or God?
Is Christ God incarnate?
Here this will jog your memory:
Looks like you need a little refresher course in Sunday school…
Now don’t get angry Mormons, this is one (part of anyway) of those verses when you break it done in the original text of Greek it kind of messes up your doctrine. I am just showing Olaf that he once again was calling people heretics without knowing what he was saying…now that is two transgressions he owes us.
And ColdSteele, why the anger about saying Mormons misread the bible, every church has done that I mentioned a couple of other doctrines). Since the computer age and the much better understanding of ancient Greek and Hebrew many texts have been updated. Most of the original texts were very accurate (in the details that mattered), but they still had some changes. Even your Book of Mormon that was supposed to be divinely delivered and interpreted has had thousands of changes. Some to match up to the bible, and others just little grammar stuff. Guess God had a hard time with the English language, I know I do. Maybe a little foggy on the seer stones, I have the same problem with my glasses…no big deal.
right2bright on April 19, 2008 at 1:29 AM
@ SaintOlaf on April 19, 2008 at 1:28 AM
A global flood is impossible and it did not occur. Al scientific evidence points to no global flood. You make things up as you go.
muyoso on April 19, 2008 at 1:30 AM
Merely defining the word. Nothing else follows. Beyond not believing in gods an athiest can have any other stuff going on.
exception on April 19, 2008 at 1:31 AM
I just got back. It was excellent.
Everyone go, if for nothing else but to better appreciate our right to ask questions.
simon on April 19, 2008 at 1:31 AM
Get an original copy, and you’ll see that issues were grammatical. Fine tuning to match the Bible didn’t happen with edits.
Cold Steel on April 19, 2008 at 1:31 AM
WOOHOO!!! We did it!
And, Happy Patriots’ Day!
exception on April 19, 2008 at 1:32 AM
@ simon on April 19, 2008 at 1:31 AM
This movie got such terrible reviews, and sounds like such a conspiratorial bunch of nonsense, I doubt I will see it until it is widely pirated. And even then, I am sure it will be right along Loose Change on the level of validity it holds.
muyoso on April 19, 2008 at 1:32 AM
Yay! 1006 comments!
We did it! and no one got shot or burned in effigy!
no one tried to sue or kill a cartoonist YAY!
that is one thing I can say for atheists :) they do seem to be calmer than some belief systems I could mention :)
(And I wouldnt get upset at any cartoons they might produce either!)
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on April 19, 2008 at 1:33 AM
What do you think’s coming next? I ask this in all sincerity. Any belief in a cessation of existence is, in my opinion, nihilism. But that’s not what you’re saying. Pray tell! Is it Buddhism, or something else?
Tzetzes on April 19, 2008 at 1:33 AM
BTW, this will be an interesting site to read.
http://www.expelledexposed.com/index.php/the-truth
muyoso on April 19, 2008 at 1:34 AM
I’m glad your FAITH in your nonreligious religion is so strong. Luke would be proud of you.
Evolution is a religion? No, Evolution is an idea that is believed by some people who believe in God and many who don’t. The same can not be said about being an Atheist or a Christian or a Muslim. Evolution is something one beleives in, not something someone practices.
And, besides, I wouldn’t know about the “tactics” of religious people. Because I am not one. Didn’t I clue you in on a previous post?
TheCulturalist on April 19, 2008 at 1:34 AM
@ PrettyD_Vicious on April 19, 2008 at 1:18 AM
And then the public schools were taken over by religions, such that theories like creationism and intelligent design were allowed in the classroom, completely violating the seperation of church and state. If you don’t like the morals being taught in your school, you can attend the school board meetings and voice your opinions all you want. You can also teach your children the morality that YOU think she/he should live their life by. Simply relying on the public school system to teach your child EXACTLY how you want them taught, and then being pissed when your special needs arent met is not a good way of going about it.
muyoso on April 19, 2008 at 1:21 AM
You are still not addressing my point! You want the public school system to teach your belief system of atheism. It is just as wrong as me forcing the school system to teach my belief system. You are ok with the school system teaching the atheist viewpoint,
PrettyD_Vicious on April 19, 2008 at 1:35 AM
@ Tzetzes on April 19, 2008 at 1:33 AM
I think that I Will become worm food, which will then turn into worm castings, which will serve as nutrients for trees and other plants, and will then reproduce and spread across the world. So I will be one again with the earth. Or in other words, I will die and rot in the ground.
muyoso on April 19, 2008 at 1:35 AM
Tzetzes on April 19, 2008 at 1:33 AM
If this is it, and there’s nothing else, why butt heads with believers? Quit wasting time and party like it’s 1999. Why care about what us crazies are thinking?
Cold Steel on April 19, 2008 at 1:36 AM
Do Buddists have a god? I have no faith in an afterlife, nor any other reason to expect one. If there’s one it wouldn’t piss me off.
exception on April 19, 2008 at 1:37 AM
right2bright on April 19, 2008 at 1:29 AM
That’s a little out of context..
ColdSteel,PrettyD
I would gladly debate these mormon issues on a mormon thread, but here it seems we are on the same side of this issue.
SaintOlaf on April 19, 2008 at 1:37 AM
@ PrettyD_Vicious on April 19, 2008 at 1:35 AM
I dont want them to teach atheism. You confuse sexual education with atheism. Teaching a chlld how to use a condom and what sexually transmitted diseases are is not atheism. Its called taking the touchy subject out of the hands of the parents so that they can avoid the issue altogether, which most like.
muyoso on April 19, 2008 at 1:37 AM
muyoso on April 19, 2008 at 1:35 AM
And this will be an eternally repetitive cycle? Man can aspire to wormfood. Wonderful.
Cold Steel on April 19, 2008 at 1:37 AM
Wait a minute, you diss people for sending you to a pro ID site to support their beliefs, and you think it is okay to send us to your pro evolution site?
What do they call that? Hypa something
Actually the site from Scientific American (that I linked earlier) was not as complete (read propagandized) as your site, but the arguments for evolution were more substantial.
right2bright on April 19, 2008 at 1:37 AM
Cold Steel on April 19, 2008 at 1:36 AM
best post of the night!
thankee
and on that brilliant note good night all :)
WE DID IT ATHIESTS and GOD MONGERS ALIKE!
1000+ Posts yay US!
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on April 19, 2008 at 1:38 AM
@ TheCulturalist on April 19, 2008 at 1:34 AM
No, I dont have faith in it. Again, this is you trying to apply religious concepts to nonreligious things. Does someone need faith to assume that there is no 30 foot monster under their bed at night? No, because its never been observed and is completely unlikely. NO faith needed.
muyoso on April 19, 2008 at 1:40 AM
works both ways… who said i’m a creationist?
TheCulturalist on April 19, 2008 at 1:40 AM
Aspire while you respire.
exception on April 19, 2008 at 1:40 AM
Just wanted to be sure you are saying the following quote is wrong?
Just trying to determine what kind of “Christian” you are…see many people call themselves Christian.
right2bright on April 19, 2008 at 1:41 AM
@ right2bright on April 19, 2008 at 1:37 AM
I never said you weren’t allowed to send me a link from a creationist website, i just said it stunk of bias. My site does the same. The difference is that the thing you linked was an essay from one scientist, and the link I provided has hundreds if not thousands of scientists contributing, and it takes creationist arguments and destroys them.
muyoso on April 19, 2008 at 1:41 AM
I check. I’m empirical, I am.
exception on April 19, 2008 at 1:41 AM
@ TheCulturalist on April 19, 2008 at 1:40 AM
Never said you were. I am telling you why I come here to give my opinion, its not because i am trying to spread atheism.
muyoso on April 19, 2008 at 1:43 AM
RELIGION: Any system of faith and worship. In this sense, religion comprehends the belief and worship of pagans and Mohammedans, as well as of christians; any religion consisting in the belief of a superior power or powers governing the world, and in the worship of such power or powers. Thus we speak of the religion of the Turks, of the Hindoos, of the Indians, &c. as well as of the christian religion. We speak of false religion, as well as of true religion.
Webster’s Dictionary 1828.
Skidd on April 19, 2008 at 1:43 AM
As a Hellenist, I always cringe whenever I hear theologians (amateur or professional) use the phrase “in the original Greek”. I have never met a theologian with respectable Greek, except for Orthodox ones (whose mother tongue was Greek!). The reason is that they don’t study the language for love of the language, but in order to get something else out of it, and so usually confine themselves to a very small set of texts (NT, LXX and possibly Church Fathers), with very little exposure one the one hand to Homer, Plato or (say) Apollodorus, and usually even less to mediaeval or modern Greek (to whose use of vocabulary ‘Alexandrian’ Greek more closely fits), not to mention anything like documentary papyri. So they “study Greek” without any greater linguistic context, approaching the texts with very little in the way of linguistic comfort or familiarity and a lot in the way of pre-held ideas. You can guess which yields to which and which wrests the other.
Tzetzes on April 19, 2008 at 1:44 AM
Always trying to be on the side of truth. Please don’t tell Wise Golden. He-she-it thinks I hate you.
Cold Steel on April 19, 2008 at 1:44 AM
Bedtime. I am done with this thread, i wont see your responses. Goodnight.
muyoso on April 19, 2008 at 1:45 AM
Goodnight. Don’t forget your prayers.
Cold Steel on April 19, 2008 at 1:46 AM
typical confusion of Faith with knowledge…
unless you have a massive bed that is… then there could very well be a 30 ft monster under it.
the existence of God isn’t provable one way or the other. So, in order to believe or NOT believe, one must have the Faith or Belief that they have made the right choice.
Any other way of looking at it is simply childish.
Any Atheist I have ever heard has been more than just a nonbeliever. They are antireligious. Or so they maintain. But they have a group of people who believe the same thing, they communicate with each other, they defend their nonbelief and they attack anyone who questions their nonbelief…
sounds almost… RELIGIOUS
TheCulturalist on April 19, 2008 at 1:49 AM
Is a good night one which brings us closer to worm food? Is a bad night one in which we cheat trees of their required nutrients? Should we not, to please our worm masters, hasten our deaths to be one with detritus?
Cold Steel on April 19, 2008 at 1:49 AM
Man, they can curl up…
exception on April 19, 2008 at 1:50 AM
what a shame… i will miss you
TheCulturalist on April 19, 2008 at 1:50 AM
@muyoso on April 19, 2008 at 1:37 AM
I don’t mine them teaching about STDs and such, I got that in junior high too, but public schools are going way beyond that in the school system of today.
PrettyD_Vicious on April 19, 2008 at 1:51 AM
Would you like to come to my backyard when you do? ;)
Just to check, you aren’t actually addressing that to me, are you? We’ve had more than enough discussions for that! (I’m very interested in what all sorts of people say about the afterlife. Why? Well, in a word, Socrates.)
I think it depends on what kind of Buddhist and what you mean by god. Many Buddhists believe in gods that are potent, but not (if I understand aright) omnipotent: the universe is in flux, you have power to one degree or another, but there isn’t one overarching conscious being. But I suppose you’re more agnostic, of a wait-and-see type. (Fair?)
Tzetzes on April 19, 2008 at 1:52 AM
Monsters, Inc. told me all I need to know about monsters.
Cold Steel on April 19, 2008 at 1:52 AM
It doesn’t have to go that way. It can be done without resorting to faith at all. You just have to believe me.
exception on April 19, 2008 at 1:52 AM
No that was for my bear. Should have directed better. Your posts are always an interesting read.
Cold Steel on April 19, 2008 at 1:54 AM
If there’s no consciousness after death, then there is no should.
Tzetzes on April 19, 2008 at 1:54 AM
oh, i do, i do, i really do
TheCulturalist on April 19, 2008 at 1:54 AM
Not then at least.
exception on April 19, 2008 at 1:55 AM
I consider the change from Mother of God to the Mother of the Son of God a major change (which fits into the bible, the other was found to be out of line with the bible).
The Book of Mormon was the most accurate book ever written, it came directly from God to Smith, so their should be very few changes.
Here is one place you can see many of the major changes.
Just a dozen or so of the over 3,000 changes made to the most perfect book ever written.
right2bright on April 19, 2008 at 1:55 AM
i was going to ask, but didn’t get a chance…
is muyoso a male or a female? i was thinking female, but i think i saw someone post that he was a he…
just wondering…
TheCulturalist on April 19, 2008 at 1:56 AM
This is an weak statement. First off, you’re confusing God with religion. Second, if people only believe in God because someone else indoctrinated them, then how did a belief in God originate?
Spolitics on April 19, 2008 at 1:56 AM
Tzetzes on April 19, 2008 at 1:54 AM
Guess that’s why I always flunked atheism in school. Couldn’t get around that distinction.
Cold Steel on April 19, 2008 at 1:56 AM
Thank you for the kind words. Knew you would come around. When I first saw all your wonderful Romney posts, I had a feeling you begin warming up to us Mormon types.
Cold Steel on April 19, 2008 at 1:58 AM
Does E1701 have no reply…
or is he finally starting to realize the truth?
Clearly E1701 has studied the non scientific state religion of evolution far more than muyoso…he is probably aware of the fact that MUCH evidence exists that points to a global flood.
Maybe now that he’s realizing they’ve lied to him about so many things, he will start to seriously look into the matter.
Here’s a hint:
What would you find if there was a global flood??
You would find billions of dead things,buried in rock layers,laid down by water,all over the earth.
What do you find?
Billions of dead things,buried in rock layers,laid down by water,all over the earth.
What else would you find?
A lot of water?
If you lowered the mountains and raised the trenches of the earth…the earth would be completely covered in water, in fact, the entire earth would be covered in water almost two miles deep!
Waht else would you find?
Would you find sedimentary soil?
Face it…we have been lied to about our entire history.
Isn’t anyone curious as to what our real history is?
Is it more “comfortable” for you to not believe in the existence of God?
SaintOlaf on April 19, 2008 at 1:58 AM
muyoso has left the building… but you wouldn’t have gotten a clear answer anyway
TheCulturalist on April 19, 2008 at 1:59 AM
A good worm feeder eats right, exercises, and gets a good night’s sleep. You don’t want to cheat the worms and trees.
Cold Steel on April 19, 2008 at 2:01 AM
I agree. It is trivially true to a point, but it’s not so much a matter of indoctrination as the social role. Hard to say they’re indoctrinated when so many religious don’t actually know their doctrine.
exception on April 19, 2008 at 2:01 AM
The Goracle believes in the flood. By his speculation, by 2050, most of the polar ice will be melted and the seas will rise 1000s of feet. The storms will soon break the mountains down and The Goracle must have seen that prophetic movie, Waterworld! I tell you, Doom is coming. Make peace with the worms or the really big fish.
Have a good night all.
PrettyD_Vicious on April 19, 2008 at 2:06 AM
Nor now: even were you to go on living for a hundred million years or any vast (from our current perspective) but finite time, how much infinitely more infinite would the infinity of blackness be on either side! And compared to that, all else (a mere million million) were nihil.
Tzetzes on April 19, 2008 at 2:06 AM
who do i give my address to so i can get my prize for helping to fertilize a +1000 post thread?
TheCulturalist on April 19, 2008 at 2:06 AM
Those aren’t atheist per se, just dicks who are atheists. Most nonbelievers you’d have no reason to know were atheists.
exception on April 19, 2008 at 2:07 AM
Save your psuedo intellect for someone else…you know what I meant; the rest of your speech is worthless. I doubt you have had much experience with “professional” theologians, except for a few classes in school.
You may respond to me about such things in ten or fifteen years after you have lived life out in the real world. Your professors couldn’t make it, we’ll see if you can. If not then you can always retreat back to school and converse with “intellectuals”, as the working stiffs support you…I have a feeling my kids will be supporting you…
right2bright on April 19, 2008 at 2:08 AM
I think you give it to God. But good luck figuring out how to email him. If muyoso was here he would demonstrate how the fact that God doesn’t have an email account proves that God doesn’t exist.
Spolitics on April 19, 2008 at 2:10 AM
Not sure you would want to live for a hundred million years though…
“For indeed I saw with mine own eyes the Sibyl at Cumae, hanging in her glasen jar; and when the boys did say to her, ‘Sibyl, what wilst thou?’ she answered them ‘I want to die.’” (~Petronius, quoted by Eliot, translated just now by Tzetzes)
Tzetzes on April 19, 2008 at 2:11 AM
right2bright on April 19, 2008 at 2:08 AM
Going personal? All he said was cringe, and now your putting his name down on welfare rolls? Why the rub?
Cold Steel on April 19, 2008 at 2:11 AM
Eh?
Tzetzes on April 19, 2008 at 2:12 AM
Backwards! The infinite future matters little for me if I’m not there. If I were then the present on Earth is insignificant. If this is it, then the present is extremely significant. Meaning, I should have pie in the house. But do not.
exception on April 19, 2008 at 2:12 AM
Perceived … your a hoot. ~ 20 years ago I was spending my time in a post hole digger (PhD) program for physics. Primarily a mathematician , I loved the subject. I saw beauty, order, and design everywhere, however, … those notions are heresy. No, I was informed that I lived a life of fiction and fantasy. That life was nothing but chance originating with a spark in primordial gas, and if I was going to be anything in science, I better get with the program. Long story short, between my beliefs, values, and my political bent, it was pretty easy to see my current career track wasn’t looking too promising. Having come to enjoy food, clothing and shelter, I decided to leave and go work for a living. One of the better decisions in my life.
My friend evolution is not about the variation in species … The words Darwin used for biological evolution was “descent with modification”. No one argues about that or “change in gene frequencies” (happened when my kids were conceived – that is, when another life began). Darwin claimed much more:
1) all living things are descendant of a common ancestor (that is you and I are the related descendents of two lonely amoeba billions and billions and billions of years ago).
2) the priciple mechanism for “descent with modification” is natural selection (Why did they kill little Bobby Franks? Not for money, not for spite; not for hate. They killed him as they might kill a spider or a fly, for the experience. They killed him because they were made that way.)
3) unguided processes can explain all features of living things – whatever may appear to be design is just an illusion (Chuck spent too much time in the sun. He sounds like a Zen master.).
Please cite the reference for “mathematically provable” evolution. I would enjoy examining the proof and subsequent discussions. Just FYI — I won’t hold my breath until you (or anyone else for that matter) finds it.
Then your god is not the one in the Bible. Go look at the time lines and sequences proposed by the evolutionists/darwinists then read the first chapter of Genesis. Which sequence is correct?
I agree with you. The preaching of ID is tom-foolery akin to trying to slip someone a mickey. First we get them to believe our “rational” arguments, then we pull away the curtain and show them God was there all along! Horse-puckey.
Personally, I believe the world as we know it was created by God in six days, and I do not believe the earth is much more, if any, than 10,000 years old.
AZ_Redneck on April 19, 2008 at 2:13 AM
The Orthodox don’t seem to have a problem with the Deipara (Θεοτόκος). You’re not a Nestorian, are you? :)
Tzetzes on April 19, 2008 at 2:15 AM
lol
that answers two questions for me…
now i know muyoso’s gender
i was so sure he was a she though… i wonder what led me to the conclusion?
TheCulturalist on April 19, 2008 at 2:16 AM
This may be true, but “Intelligent Design” is not the example to use. ID is rejected not because of any “wall,” but because ID isn’t science. Stein needs to learn the difference between freedom of speech and the scientific method. There is no evidence of Intelligent Design. There can’t be — it’s an article of faith. So Intelligent Design and Ben Stein both get a big honking EPIC FAIL.
Mark Jaquith on April 19, 2008 at 2:16 AM
Hmm, not Hamlet’s take, for what it’s worth.
Tzetzes on April 19, 2008 at 2:17 AM
I should hope not!
exception on April 19, 2008 at 2:18 AM
Actually, I don’t his/her gender. Just used “he.” I guess I had faith in the fact that muyoso was a he because I had been indoctrinated.
Spolitics on April 19, 2008 at 2:18 AM
Mark Jaquith on April 19, 2008 at 2:16 AM
Intelligent design manifests itself each morning in my mirror at approximately 5:30 a.m.
Cold Steel on April 19, 2008 at 2:19 AM
I’ll have you know that I have no intention of living out in the real world.
Tzetzes on April 19, 2008 at 2:19 AM
Ha! I mean, he (the great skeptic and agnostic) says (to paraphrase) “this sucks! If this is it, I’m not havin’ it; I’d rather die! Yeah! …Unless …Unless …Unless maybe you keep on feeling, and it’s worse, and even worse worse if you kill yourself. Hmm, I’d better hang on and see how things go.”
He may have been a Dane, but he still had a British upper lip. I wish the same to you! ;)
Tzetzes on April 19, 2008 at 2:23 AM
The Bible wasn’t written in English, first of all. The Bible doesn’t say that God made the universe in six literal days (how the hell would you even measure a day before the creation of the sun, anyway?). Not that it really matters… Genesis isn’t a historical document or a scientific document. It’s allegorical.
Mark Jaquith on April 19, 2008 at 2:24 AM
So do you think those were made up, or do you think they were changed?
What has intrigued me, is how upset someone gets when a truth is posted.
Here let me help you…Martin Luther, whom I admire as a theologian, was an anti-Semite, he hated Jews. He was wrong, dead wrong on his hatred. You see that is a fact that I am uncomfortable with (being a Lutheran), but it is a fact. And if someone states it, I may cringe, but I don’t disparage that person and call him a bigot or Lutheran hater…it is a true fact. So when someone says in context that many religions, such as Mormons and Baptists, have changed their books of faith because they were written or interpreted wrong, why is that such a terrible thing, if it is true? The Pope is ashamed of what the American Priests has caused, and he has owned up to that. Those acts are facts, why hide them, they are part of the church history.
That is the intriguing thing about Mormon’s…the truth really bothers them. I guess it is like Christ saying that darkness cannot stand the light.
right2bright on April 19, 2008 at 2:25 AM
well, shoot, now i’m back to square one.
TheCulturalist on April 19, 2008 at 2:25 AM
Why does that not surprise me…so you will be a “kept” person?
right2bright on April 19, 2008 at 2:27 AM
Only if your children actually want to learn Greek.
Tzetzes on April 19, 2008 at 2:28 AM
By the way… I subscribe to the Atlantic Monthly and in last month’s issue there was an ad for a series called “Does science make belief in God obsolete?” with quotes from various scientists. There were some interesting quotes. If people are curious, here’s the link: http://www.templeton.org/belief/
Spolitics on April 19, 2008 at 2:29 AM
Just look up the word YOM, or if you have a couple of hours ask tzetzes.
That will tell you how confusing the word “day” is.
right2bright on April 19, 2008 at 2:29 AM
Worst. Pickup line. Ever.
Mark Jaquith on April 19, 2008 at 2:31 AM
Beautiful.
Unfortunately folks like muyoso and mark are unable to grasp the idea that this type of persecution,and worse, happens in every college throughout U.S. and Europe.
SaintOlaf on April 19, 2008 at 2:31 AM
Ha! I suppose it depends on who you try it on.
Tzetzes on April 19, 2008 at 2:31 AM
Seriously? Over 1000 comments?
Roebuck on April 19, 2008 at 2:37 AM
“I didn’t ask to be ‘to the manor born’!”
Tzetzes on April 19, 2008 at 2:37 AM
Let’s try for 2000 comments, shall we?
FRED THOMPSON!
MORMONS!
THE DALLAS COWBOYS SUCK!
That ought to do the job.
fiatboomer on April 19, 2008 at 2:37 AM
seeee??? this is exactly what scares people…
greek indeed…
i know code words when i see them
TheCulturalist on April 19, 2008 at 2:38 AM
If you’re referring to what I think you are, then I raise my brow and give you the eye…
Tzetzes on April 19, 2008 at 2:40 AM
Fred is a Mormon who played for the Cowboys?
Damn, where have I been?
I need to come here more often, otherwise I get totally disconnected from reality
TheCulturalist on April 19, 2008 at 2:40 AM
We’ve got Mormon theology right up there, with little trouble. Fred peeked in and left. Cowboys do suck, isn’t there a consensus on that? All smooth on the big thread.
exception on April 19, 2008 at 2:41 AM
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