Video: Microsoft’s Ecosystem Rocks! (Because they say so, that’s why!)

posted at 6:01 pm on April 16, 2008 by Ed Morrissey

It’s hard to find a starting place to describe the cluelessness of this motivational video produced by Microsoft for the Vista SP1 sales team. Is it the takeoff on a video first seen before Microsoft introduced Windows at all? Is it the lame Bruce Springsteen impersonator? Does the wanna-be Courtney Cox taking to the stage take the cake? Or is it the overall tone that Vista’s “ecosystem” rocks — against all popular comment about it — finally provoke the gag reflex?

In my opinion, one cannot separate the elements into differing levels of staggering cluelessness. They blend into a gigantic gestalt of self-delusion that can only make the rest of us Vista users wonder whether Redmond ganja is really that good. A few of the people in this video look like they have partaken of it a little too often. Most of us wish they would go back just a few years ago to XP, rather than all the way back to 1984. What’s next — a kickoff video for DOS 8.0?

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Uh,but thuja, Linux is far from a consumer product itself. It is stable, and it’s a fantastic base for certain kinds of servers (although for business servers, you’re still better off with the wider support afforded Unix, Windows Server, or Mac Server), especially net and game servers.

But for consumer use? Sorry, when I stop getting people desperately searching for the “any” key, and who don’t try to use duct tape and pliers to install a monitor onto a serial port, then *maybe* we can think about using a friendly Linux GUI as a consumer option.

What so great about Linux and other Free Open Source Operating Systems is the variety approaches. I use KDE as my desktop environment on Linux. It’s not tricky or sophisticated. But for the stupid, there is the Gnome desktop environment on Linux. They’ve dumbed it down to the level of Windows. It’s truly a product for the dumb consumer. I wouldn’t touch it myself. Call me Obama, as I also care about the price of argula.

thuja on April 16, 2008 at 10:18 PM

I’ve been using Vista since last June. No problems, no lag, no crashes, no security issues. I turned my laptop into a Linus machine. That’s good too, but Vista is way sexier and I really don’t see why people complain so much. I remember when XP came out everyone hated it. It wasnt compatible with anything, and was a resource hog. Now it’s apparently the alpha and omega of OS’s. The industry standard is two years for computers to be relevant with software from what I’ve read. So why would people expect their pentium III to run Vista?

gator70 on April 16, 2008 at 10:25 PM

Awesome, a fanboy…

thuja on April 16, 2008 at 10:03 PM

Vista isn’t a product to help the consumer at all. [A] It’s just a product to benefit Hollywood with its DRM schemes. … [B] The stability of Linux over Windows has been proven time after time after time. Why are you denying it? [C] Of the top ten servers on the net, only one runs a Microsoft product.

A: What? I assume you are talking about the DRM for protected HD content, which is a legal requirement for any player. Period. It has nothing to do with Microsoft. Microsoft plays by the same rules that Apple does on that.

B: Let’s both install a Haupauge TV capture card and a late model ATI card in our machines… race ya! (And when I’m done, mine will run more software, and it will be far superior software)

C: Again, you don’t seem to know what you’re talking about. This point makes little sense on its face. “servers” aren’t even a player nowadays so much as “server farms”. And yes, apache/linux is quite popular for webservers, but even in that realm it is losing ground to windows. As .NET has grown in influence, so too has IIS.

But that’s a silly argument in the first place… the choice of platform for a webserver is practically meaningless. (Not to mention you can run apache on windows)

DaveS on April 16, 2008 at 10:28 PM

Awesome, a fanboy…

thuja on April 16, 2008 at 10:03 PM

DaveS on April 16, 2008 at 10:28 PM

I don’t think I’m the fanboy here. The simple fact is that Linux is more than enough for any non-gamer’s consumer needs. With the non-open source available drivers now, there are some advantages to gamers who use Windows. I think most people using computers are surfing the web and using spread sheets and word processors–not playing games.

B: Let’s both install a Haupauge TV capture card and a late model ATI card in our machines… race ya! (And when I’m done, mine will run more software, and it will be far superior software)

Dude, ATI is going Open Source which means that the Linux drivers will be as fast as the Windows drivers within a year or two–not that any non-gamer will notice the difference.

thuja on April 16, 2008 at 10:47 PM

It’s not a matter of how “fast” the driver is–the “speed” of a driver is a meaningless concept. My point is, simply, that it takes longer to get the hardware working in Linux–if you can even find drivers–and when it does the software pretty much sucks.

Linux is a great server platform, and X-windows is a great windowing system. It’s the stuff that runs on it that sucks.

The simple fact is that Linux is more than enough for any non-gamer’s consumer needs.

What a silly statement.

DaveS on April 16, 2008 at 10:55 PM

DaveS on April 16, 2008 at 10:28 PM

A fanboy responding to a fanboy, now that’s original.

jdkchem on April 16, 2008 at 10:55 PM

lolflamewar

spmat on April 16, 2008 at 10:55 PM

Vista isn’t a product to help the consumer at all. It’s just a product to benefit Hollywood with its DRM schemes.

Heh! So XP has the conspiracy nutter base behind it…

someone on April 16, 2008 at 11:00 PM

I have to amdit, this is about the worst thing i have ever read here. It’s a video to motivate sales people. They are *always* corny and always talk about the product like it’s god if it’s good or bad. What use would they be if they didn’t?

It doesn’t matter if you like it or not, becasue you are not on the marketing team for vista

LordDaMan on April 16, 2008 at 11:06 PM

It’s truly a product for the dumb consumer.

What are you suggesting? Most people don’t give a frog’s fat as_ if they can configure a web server using command line interface. Windows and Mac are popular because the interfaces are intuitive. Because of the popularity, the vast majority of software has been developed to assist END-USERS with their tasks. Don’t be silly, dude.

Claypigeon on April 16, 2008 at 11:06 PM

The simple fact is that Linux is more than enough for any non-gamer’s consumer needs.

What a silly statement.

DaveS on April 16, 2008 at 10:55 PM

How is it a silly statement? Do you think consumers need the marching ants around words of Microsoft Word? It’s simple fact for all non-gamer regular consumers Linux is just fine.

And for more techncial consumers, Linux is the better choice. For gamers with nvidia video cards, I’ll admit Window is superior.

thuja on April 16, 2008 at 11:07 PM

This link explains it all… Click here.

Claypigeon on April 16, 2008 at 11:08 PM

DaveS on April 16, 2008 at 10:55 PM

You have no clue. Even with the video (Nvidia) and web cam I’m up and running in less then thirty minutes. No hunting for drivers and hoping the hardware works, no reboot hell. From the way you talk I find it hard to believe that you’ve even seen any version of Linux in the last 10 years.

jdkchem on April 16, 2008 at 11:13 PM

Lousy video but I like Vista.

bobthepeeler on April 16, 2008 at 11:18 PM

thuja on April 16, 2008 at 11:07 PM

I have to disagree as I have Nvidia onboard graphics. The reason I bought the motherboard was because of the Linux support. I have to disagree with the “gamers” comment as well because of Cedega.

jdkchem on April 16, 2008 at 11:19 PM

It’s truly a product for the dumb consumer.

What are you suggesting? Most people don’t give a frog’s fat as_ if they can configure a web server using command line interface. Windows and Mac are popular because the interfaces are intuitive. Because of the popularity, the vast majority of software has been developed to assist END-USERS with their tasks. Don’t be silly, dude.

Claypigeon on April 16, 2008 at 11:06 PM

You’ve taken my quote utterly out of context and your reaction has no relevance to what I said. In particular, my statement has nothing whatsoever to do with “configur[ing] a web server using command line interface”. Let’s review the context. I was talking about KDE versus Gnome on the Linux operating system and other Unix derived OS. I was talking about my contempt for Gnome. I strongly believe that anyone capable of using a computer will be just fine using KDE. I have my computer-phobic mother using KDE and she is not having major problems.

thuja on April 16, 2008 at 11:20 PM

Claypigeon on April 16, 2008 at 11:06 PM

the only intuitive interface is the nipple. Everything else is learned.

jdkchem on April 16, 2008 at 11:21 PM

Wow. That was some Epic Fail. As a matter of fact, that thing was so full of Fail that the world’s Fail resources may just be close to running out as a result.

It HAS to be fake. The bit about “being able to snoop on your employees’ desktops” made me wonder quite a bit. Let’s face it, 99% of supervisors and CEOs are still struggling to find out where the “Start” button is, so what would they use *that* feature for?

As to Vista itself?

Mheh. It’s the new XP. I’ll be doing the exact same thing I did with that one. Hang on the the current version (XP now, 98 SE then), then switch over when, and not a second before that, I HAVE to.

Which, with Micro$loth products, tends to be just around the time that their new crap actually works.

Misha I on April 16, 2008 at 11:22 PM

thuja on April 16, 2008 at 11:20 PM

Funny, I don’t care much for KDE, aesthetically anyway, and I have my computer-phobic mother using gnome.

jdkchem on April 16, 2008 at 11:23 PM

jdkchem on April 16, 2008 at 11:19 PM

I hate myself for disagreeing with you, but I did read on http://www.phoronix.com/ that the Window Nvidia drivers are better than the Linux ones. Despite this one minor issue, please don’t view me as anything but a compatriot.

thuja on April 16, 2008 at 11:28 PM

Media Center (I write this on a Linux laptop) is pretty cool. It’s a good reason to buy Windows, you can record all sorts of Cable TV and then burn to DVD or whatever. Even better, use various apps to transcode into Video Ipod format and take say last night’s Heroes or Chuck that you couldn’t watch with you on your Video Ipod. Watch it whenever, where ever.

You can do the same thing on Linux (Myth TV) but it’s hard to set up. Once you’ve set it up though, it’s pretty easy to use. The hurdle of installing is pretty legendary though. There are a couple of distributions just for that purpose.

Linux has tons of apps, gazillions of them, for just about anything. Including, yes lots of transcoding utilities that are free that will encode whatever video (recorded TV, DVDs, etc) into Ipod format.

Macs (a lot of folks don’t know this) can use Linux apps too — either Macports.org or fink.sourceforge.net will get you tons of ports that run in Mac OS*

*You must have the X11 utility installed from your Mac OSX install disk, not the one from Apple’s website. It’s in a lower part of the open window, so scroll down to search for it.

whiskey_199 on April 16, 2008 at 11:29 PM

No, I’m just kidding with you. I agree 100% about the game thing but dude, c’mon–don’t lie and tell people the Mac never crashes. It does. Out of the box new and powerful Macs have locked up on me in the middle of running Final Cut Pro and iTunes. It happens.

Don’t be a Martha Raddatz interviewing US soldiers for ABC News on who they were voting for president and somehow every leatherneck that ends up in your final report said Obama or Clinton because they wanted more emphasis on the environment and eduction… you gotta find at least one guy to say “McCain” so it doesn’t look like you totally rigged your data.

ScottMcC on April 16, 2008 at 8:42 PM

Do Mac’s crash? Yes. But its an exception, not the rule unlike PC’s.

I have never had a Mac crash on me, and I ride em pretty hard. I have a new top of the line IMac, all the bells and whistles. I have taken my entire DVD collection and converted them to Iphone format using Handbrake (Free, unlike all the PC crap at Best Buy) and I can also stream them to my Apple TV and the video quality is great on my wide screen TV. Its all wireless, so sweet, so simple.

Again, Mac’s can and do crash, like everything else subject to time and space, but it happens so infrequently that when you hear about it you almost want to go to Snopes.com to make sure its not just an urban legend.

RobertInAustin on April 16, 2008 at 11:30 PM

Another thing about Linux, you can run it on systems without much RAM or HD. Feather Linux and Puppy Linux and DSL all run in very low configured systems. Making an old Win 98 machine still useful for light web surfing, word processing, etc. You won’t rip video with it, but you can do lots of easy stuff. Nice for the environment — computer is repurposed for whatever, kids, grandma, surfing at coffee shops, not in a landfill.

Schools will use Linux for this purpose — donated old hardware is actually useful, and you can lock down the system so kids are not surfing pr0n, doing other stupid stuff.

whiskey_199 on April 16, 2008 at 11:33 PM

Macs (a lot of folks don’t know this) can use Linux apps too — either Macports.org or fink.sourceforge.net will get you tons of ports that run in Mac OS*

*You must have the X11 utility installed from your Mac OSX install disk, not the one from Apple’s website. It’s in a lower part of the open window, so scroll down to search for it.

We just got a Mac at the beginning of the year. I’ve been using Macports.

I believe it requires X-Code, not just X11. I downloaded xCode 3.0 from Apple .

I emailed the link to Mrs fluffy. “Watch this and you will want that Mac laptop”

fluffy on April 16, 2008 at 11:41 PM

RobertInAustin on April 16, 2008 at 11:30 PM

Dunno about you, but I don’t use a PC – I use a Dell laptop running XP Media Center edition. It works pretty well, and aside from damage I’ve done to the laptop I’ve had few problems.

It’s about a year old and I could get an identical one for about 599 – and it’s not slow at all (though it might slug up a bit with vista.)

I’ve not run into a lot of crashing problems with Windows systems recently, and usually they are a result of doing very specific things; like running unported, unsupported applications on a newer OS. Just because you can do it doesn’t mean you should.

RiverCocytus on April 16, 2008 at 11:42 PM

Macs (a lot of folks don’t know this) can use Linux apps too — either Macports.org or fink.sourceforge.net will get you tons of ports that run in Mac OS*

And many Linux apps are being ported to Windows these days. The Gnome Spreadsheet was ported some time ago:
http://www.gnome.org/projects/gnumeric/downloads.shtml

Open office–more than enough office applications for most people–can found at
download.openoffice.org

And KDE is in the process of porting everything to Windows, but I wouldn’t recommend trying it yet for the novice, but feel free to Google “KDE 4 Windows”. (It’s KDE version 4, and not 4 for “for”.)

thuja on April 16, 2008 at 11:49 PM

jdkchem on April 16, 2008 at 11:13 PM

You have no clue. Even with the video (Nvidia) and web cam I’m up and running in less then thirty minutes. No hunting for drivers and hoping the hardware works, no reboot hell. From the way you talk I find it hard to believe that you’ve even seen any version of Linux in the last 10 years.

10 Years ago I was multibooting Redhat 4 (or 5, can’t remember) on a Mac with MacOS and YellowDog on one machine, and running Win98 on another.

I have worked for quite sometime as a developer and have extensively in Red Hat Enterprise, was an early adopter of Ubuntu (which I still dual boot with GLX/Compiz on a windows machine). I always have an extra partition to experiment with other OS’s and I have used pretty much every major linux distro, and even built a Gentoo installation from source.

In short, I have probably used more Linux–hands on–than both of you brainwashed fanboys combined. I now am a developer at Microsoft, working on developer tools. I have no working relationship to Vista, I don’t particularly like Vista, etc., but it is absolutely foolish to pretend that the Linux desktop is even in the same league as Windows.

I can see how you could think so if you are limiting your thinking to simple word processing and things…

DaveS on April 17, 2008 at 12:00 AM

My best friend, Morty, and I have a suicide pact: the first one to use vista has to off himself. The loser has to comfort the widow.

snaggletoothie on April 17, 2008 at 12:01 AM

whiskey_199 on April 16, 2008 at 11:33 PM

Another thing about Linux, you can run it on systems without much RAM or HD. … Making an old Win 98 machine still useful for light web surfing, word processing, etc. … Schools will use Linux for this purpose

I absolutely agree with that. You know why? Because it was reasonable and informed.

DaveS on April 17, 2008 at 12:02 AM

Thanks Dave S.

thuja — It’s true you can run a lot of ported Linux apps on Windows. But MacPorts or Fink give you a lot more. I’ve got stuff running in Windows under Cygwin, it will work, not perfect but OK. Some stuff just won’t compile.

GIMP (Photoshop replacement) for example a while back (this may have changed) was a nightmare to get running on Windows. Easy on either Mac or Linux. Same for VPN software, Bluefish (Dreamweaver replacement), and so on.

WSJ had an interview with a couple of Vista Product Execs, they don’t use if because Vista would not work with drivers they needed. They used XP.

whiskey_199 on April 17, 2008 at 12:50 AM

I’ve read plenty of fail, but the top lie was:

Also, I CAN use my Mac to record anything

No, you cannot record HBO in HD on that Mac Mini. TV tuner hardware and software for a Mac (no matter what it costs) does not have the ability to record encrypted digital cable/satellite TV signals. Neither do the Linux-based TV tuner solutions. Windows Vista can do it, but the hardware is expensive and has it’s problems.

That’s reality. “Macs never crash, make you smart, and will get you laid” is not.

ScottMcC on April 17, 2008 at 1:20 AM

Gimp is now an easy install on Windows, but it is best for modifying images, not creating new stuff (in other words, it isn’t a good “paint replacement” because it can’t really paint).

There is another open-source one out there targetting the .NET framework called Paint.NET. It’s surprisingly good, and works very well as a replacement.

DaveS on April 17, 2008 at 1:34 AM

While we’re at it, I’m currently a big fan of eTextEditor for windows, which is an excellent clone of Mac’s Textmate app and can even use its bundles.

It’s great for editing most things, and I got it for rails projects.

DaveS on April 17, 2008 at 1:36 AM

I’ve read plenty of fail, but the top lie was:

Also, I CAN use my Mac to record anything

No, you cannot record HBO in HD on that Mac Mini. TV tuner hardware and software for a Mac (no matter what it costs) does not have the ability to record encrypted digital cable/satellite TV signals. Neither do the Linux-based TV tuner solutions. Windows Vista can do it, but the hardware is expensive and has it’s problems.

That’s reality. “Macs never crash, make you smart, and will get you laid” is not.

ScottMcC on April 17, 2008 at 1:20 AM

LOL… You have obviously just graduated from the special class. Where do I start?
1: I stream HBO, SHO and ALL my high def channels from my HD-DVR, Sir, Douche. You would know that if you were not as stupid as you appear.
2. You made freshman errors in your feeble assumptions that have proven you a douche and immature. I’m not using a tuner on the Mac and I capture the media from the HD- DVR component and display it on the presentation layer of this system.(That’s the monitor) (THUS no need for the “encrypted-decrypted” silliness.)
3. I do this for a living and undoubtedly know more about this subject, A-hole. And I certainly make more money at it than you.
4. Your apparent fundamental lack of understanding of this industry leads me to understand that you have no clue as to what you’re talking about and haven’t the foggiest notion of where this industry is and where it is going.

I’ve wasted enough time on the weakest mind in this class.

Claypigeon on April 17, 2008 at 1:54 AM

Claypigeon on April 17, 2008 at 1:54 AM

I’m not using a tuner on the Mac and I capture the media from the HD- DVR component and display it on the presentation layer of this system.(That’s the monitor) (THUS no need for the “encrypted-decrypted” silliness.)

In other words, ScottMcC was correct. You don’t have HD tuner hardware in the mac… you are simply using the monitor as a TV.

DaveS on April 17, 2008 at 1:58 AM

Thanks for the backup, DaveS. Of course, I’m sorry that because of this statement of fact you also had to show your “apparent fundamental lack of understanding” which also means you are a mentally retarded “stupid” “douche” “A-hole” that doesn’t make very much money.

Welcome to the club.

ScottMcC on April 17, 2008 at 2:08 AM

As a gamer and a game developer, nothing in that video “sold” me on Vista. I Have two machines with vista on them purely for testing because none of the development tools I use run worth a damn on vista.

I’ll stick with Unix for my game servers and XP for development for now. Thank you.

BTW, somebody need to tell the M$ sales motivational team to lay off the purple Kool-Aid.

opusrex on April 17, 2008 at 2:15 AM

Windows XP was really no better than Windows 2000, but at least it wasn’t any worse, either. Much like Windows 98 was only marginally improved over Windows 95, but at least it wasn’t a step backward.

But Windows Me was such a steaming pile of dog crap that Microsoft supported Windows 98 after they dropped all support for the newer OS. And we’re seeing history repeat itself again. Vista is a major flop so far. But just like Microsoft refused to publicly admit how bad Me had tanked until it was no longer relevant, we’ll see Vista being touted as a success until Microsoft comes out with a replacement, after which they’ll grudgingly admit it was a stinker.

So what about all these people who say it works great and they love it? Many of them are telling the truth. If you try it, you just might be one of the lucky ones. If you do, though, better be sure to check hardware compatibility very carefully and pack that PC with at least 2 gig of memory and a high-end processor.

Meanwhile, Microsoft is quietly extending support for Windows 2000 and Windows XP, knowing that businesses don’t want Windows Vista.

As for me, I’ll keep on using Linux on the desktop, laptop, and server. For those very few occasions when I have to use Windows, I’ll stick with Windows 2000 or XP, preferably in a virtual machine on my Linux system.

I started using Linux when it was still new, and the GUI looked an awful lot like Windows 3.1. Back then, I would boot it temporarily, play around a while, and go back to Windows. Now, I just don’t bother with Windows.

Don’t be fooled by anyone who tries to tell you there’s no good software for Linux. Open Office is available on Windows, Linux, Solaris, FreeBSD, AIX, Mac, and more, and will cover word processing, spreadsheets, presentations, databases, and basic drawing tools. Evolution is pretty much equivalent to Outlook, Firefox is much better than IE, etc. Bottom line: if the application does what you want, other people sneering at it is just noise.

theregoestheneighborhood on April 17, 2008 at 2:47 AM

Don’t be fooled by anyone who tries to tell you there’s no good software for Linux. Open Office is available on Windows, Linux, Solaris, FreeBSD, AIX, Mac, and more, and will cover word processing, spreadsheets, presentations, databases, and basic drawing tools. Evolution is pretty much equivalent to Outlook, Firefox is much better than IE, etc. Bottom line: if the application does what you want, other people sneering at it is just noise.

Evolution is a good email client, as is Thunderbird. OpenOffice is good for spreadsheets, word processing, etc. Firefox is a great browser. KDevelop and Anjunta are decent IDEs for developers. (Though, Firefox is the only one of the bunch that is fully competes with the Microsoft equivilent, in my opinion.)

What you’re failing to account for, however, is the absolutely phenomenal integration of all of of the Microsoft apps… they form a cohesive platform. VOiP phone systems based on Office Communicator, Exchange server, Outlook, Word, Excel, etc, are integrated in ways that are almost mind-bogglingly thorough. Throw in Sharepoint, and then tools like Visual Studio and Team Foundation Server, the development process easily integrates into the platform.

There is, quite simply, NOTHING in Linux that provides such a robust computing platform. It’s hard to convey how incredibly powerful it is if you have never worked in a fully integrated Microsoft environment–which most people haven’t, because it is quite expensive to have the whole package.

It’s nice, though, to be able to click on the name of the person who has a document checked out of a Sharepoint server and launch a chat/IM session with them, then–if things need to escalate–click again on the contact and have your VoiP phone direct dial his desk, automatically setting your own status to “In a call” so that the rest of the company knows your busy. Etc… It’s nice to be able to have Visual Studio export bugs or work items to an Excel spreadsheet, edit things, and push them directly back into SQL Server. Etc.

The Linux environment isn’t even in the same league.

DaveS on April 17, 2008 at 3:42 AM

http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/27/pwn-2-own-over-macbook-air-gets-seized-in-2-minutes-flat/

MacBook Air Pwned in 2 minutes flat.

Chakra Hammer on April 16, 2008 at 7:32 PM

The Vista box fell a couple days later. So no preening around like a peacock.

raz0r on April 17, 2008 at 8:02 AM

Macs (a lot of folks don’t know this) can use Linux apps too.

Especially today, since Leopard is essentially BSD Linux.

I’ve never understood the Microsoft/Linux flamewars. I bitch about the things that Microsoft has done poorly, while congratulating them on things done well. And as a long time Unix and/or Linux user, I like the advantages that the Penguin gives me, too, not the least of which is getting some good mileage out of machines that Vista wouldn’t pee on if they were on fire.

The sneering and petty putdowns between the Microsoft and Linux camps has become boring, and neither side can claim virtue in the debate. I remember wading through some Linux forum last year where some newbie was having trouble getting everything to work. After his third try, he exclaimed in exasperation, “If I can’t get this [insert whatever] to work, I’ll probably have to go back to Windows!” The response was polite, respectful and helpful: “Go. We don’t need or want your kind here.” Yeah, that’s the way to gain converts to your cause.

Let’s face it: you Linux vs. Microsoft purists are unlikely to convince each other by bitching and whining past each other. Some of the things that DaveS finds so appealing are probably things that diehard Linux users will consider bugs, not features. And you Penguin only aficianados aren’t making yourself look good with the “Micro$oft $ukz” comments. After years of watching this “debate”, I’m convinced that it’s time for the two groups to agree to disagree and move on.

Physics Geek on April 17, 2008 at 8:07 AM

DaveS on April 17, 2008 at 3:42 AM

That’s great for dev (app and db types) guys, but doesn’t mean anything for the small mom and pops or home users. Or the multimedia crowd either.

raz0r on April 17, 2008 at 8:09 AM

DaveS on April 16, 2008 at 10:55 PM

Wow. Not even close to the truth.

Let’s both of us drop in an nVidia card, install from bare metal, and see who gets 3D first.

Shoot, I’ll race you to see who gets their box up and running first.

raz0r on April 17, 2008 at 8:16 AM

But for consumer use? Sorry, when I stop getting people desperately searching for the “any” key, and who don’t try to use duct tape and pliers to install a monitor onto a serial port, then *maybe* we can think about using a friendly Linux GUI as a consumer option. …

E1701 on April 16, 2008 at 10:10 PM

So tell me how Windows would change this. Or any OS for that matter. Computer illiteracy is just that and no OS can compensate for that.

raz0r on April 17, 2008 at 8:22 AM

It’s nice, though, to be able to click on the name of the person who has a document checked out of a Sharepoint server and launch a chat/IM session with them, then–if things need to escalate–click again on the contact and have your VoiP phone direct dial his desk, automatically setting your own status to “In a call” so that the rest of the company knows your busy. Etc… It’s nice to be able to have Visual Studio export bugs or work items to an Excel spreadsheet, edit things, and push them directly back into SQL Server. Etc.

The Linux environment isn’t even in the same league.

DaveS on April 17, 2008 at 3:42 AM

Dave, given that video, I understand that you are not getting much help from marketing. Still, your sales effort as a MS developer is lame. Why would the average user care about any of the above?

And if anyone did care, it wouldn’t be hugely difficult to implement similar things in Linux. After all, communication was a major focus in Unix for a couple of decades before Bill Gates told us that the Internet was a passing fad. For instance, if I used VoiP, it would be trivial for me to automate a way of letting other people know I was in a call. It’s not that different than something I did long ago on a Unix machine. When I was a sophomore and was serious about getting some work done, I could set up my “Do Not Disturb” mode. So Linux had ways of automatically communicating someone was “in a call” or “busy” long before Linux even existed. It was simply inherited the capacity from Unix.

thuja on April 17, 2008 at 8:57 AM

I’m saving a link to this thread to cheer myself up whenever I start feeling like a loser.

James on April 17, 2008 at 10:27 AM

I plan to update to Vista in about another ten years, by that time Microsoft should have most of the bugs and security holes out of it. At least that’s always been their schedule in the past.

Maxx on April 17, 2008 at 11:03 AM

OMG! Ed is a Vista user???

desertdweller on April 17, 2008 at 11:07 AM

I’ve never understood the Microsoft/Linux flamewars.

The flamewars started before Linux. They started almost as soon as MS-DOS was released and folks needed to deal with INT 21H.

desertdweller on April 17, 2008 at 11:12 AM

The Vista box fell a couple days later. So no preening around like a peacock.

raz0r on April 17, 2008 at 8:02 AM

Due to a bug in flash, which also could be exploited in every os flash run on. Only once an explout works it’s taken out and can’t be applied to other platforms

LordDaMan on April 17, 2008 at 11:22 AM

Due to a bug in flash, which also could be exploited in every os flash run on. Only once an explout works it’s taken out and can’t be applied to other platforms

LordDaMan on April 17, 2008 at 11:22 AM

Without the exploit code/steps being published, no one has any way of verifying that this exploit is cross platform. As of right now, it is only known that it involved Flash (and some javascript) on a Vista box, to which I surmise also involved IE7.

The thing to note from pwn2own was that both exploits were web based against what most folks would consider safe applications. No firewall to help you now. Not even application firewalls as the browser and Flash would most likely be green lighted.

Welcome to Web 2.0 people.

raz0r on April 17, 2008 at 12:13 PM

Physics geek

I’ve never understood the Microsoft/Linux flamewars

I wouldn’t call this a flamewar. It’s just that I’m…what’s the word… smart and I understand the strengths and weaknesses of both. Thuja is standing their with a flamethrower, and I’m standing here in my flame=retardant suit trying to explain why he should lose the bitterness, put down the flamethrower, and eat some arugula.

raz0r on April 17, 2008 at 8:16 AM

Let’s both of us drop in an nVidia card, install from bare metal, and see who gets 3D first.

To be fair, that would depend almost entirely on which linux distro you’re using and whether or not you already have nvidia drivers installed. At best, it would be a matter of who inserts the card quickest, because we would both already have the drivers ready to go. At worst, you would have a distro that requires you to build the driver from source and to hand-edit the X-windows config file… then you lose easily, of course. In no case do you win.

Of course, I said ATI, though, which is worse in most cases for you.

thuja on April 17, 2008 at 8:57 AM

Dave, given that video, I understand that you are not getting much help from marketing. Still, your sales effort as a MS developer is lame. Why would the average user care about any of the above?

B/c the average user is in a collaborative, business environment. The average “home user” is a different story, but again–and remember, this is coming from someone with much more knowledge of and experience with Linux than you have–Linux does not compete with Windows. The software available on Linux, 95+% of the time, does not compare favorably with the Windows equivilent. It is simply nowhere near ready.

And again, I have nothing to do with Vista, Office, etc. I work on dev tools (think Visual Studio) and that is an argument you wouldn’t dare start, because nothing comes close to MS dev tools.

DaveS on April 17, 2008 at 1:57 PM

A lot of typos in that last one… :-)

DaveS on April 17, 2008 at 1:58 PM

Was that actually the south end of a Microsoft employee peeing to the north in the opening shot??? One can only guess whether he was peeing on a customer or just filling up a VISTA box.

Our company reformatted the drive and installed Red Hat Linux on our new dual-processor 64 bit 3 GHZ system after the “preinstalled” VISTA took a full 22 minutes to boot after consuming the entire previous day finishing installing itself. It was even slower than the original XT!!!

landlines on April 17, 2008 at 2:14 PM

*Pats his MacBook, and is glad he abandoned Windows 8 years ago.*

DakRoland on April 17, 2008 at 2:14 PM

What you’re failing to account for, however, is the absolutely phenomenal integration of all of of the Microsoft apps… they form a cohesive platform. VOiP phone systems based on Office Communicator, Exchange server, Outlook, Word, Excel, etc, are integrated in ways that are almost mind-bogglingly thorough. Throw in Sharepoint, and then tools like Visual Studio and Team Foundation Server, the development process easily integrates into the platform.

There is, quite simply, NOTHING in Linux that provides such a robust computing platform. It’s hard to convey how incredibly powerful it is if you have never worked in a fully integrated Microsoft environment–which most people haven’t, because it is quite expensive to have the whole package.

Is it worth it? Given that most businesses don’t buy it, the evidence is that most businesses don’t think it’s worth it, or that it doesn’t perform as promised.

The Linux environment isn’t even in the same league.

DaveS on April 17, 2008 at 3:42 AM

You’re basically comparing a basic Linux environment without Sharepoint and VOIP and Visual Studio versus the MS platform with all of it? Cherry picking your examples a little bit?

Worse, you’re not just comparing apples to oranges, but without talking about individual applications on Linux, or individual server applications, you really don’t even have an orange to compare your apple to.

So, if you buy MS VOIP and MS Sharepoint and MS Visual Studio and MS SQL Server and MS Office for the entire corporation and throw enough hardware at it, you get nice integration.

I would certainly hope so, for the kind of money required.

Unfortunately, many people are finding they can get everything they need without going to Microsoft at all.

If you want VOIP, Microsoft is far from the most cost-effective. Virtually all VOIP platforms offer the potential for greater integration with email and instant messaging. That’s the advantage of the IP part of VOIP.

SQL Server is a decent database, but DB2 and Oracle are better. I know this, because IBM and Oracle have told me so. Which makes just as much sense as taking your word for how much better Windows is because you work at Microsoft.

Personally, I find Postgresql to be the best deal around when you need a powerful database.

The biggest thing Microsoft has had going for it is ignorance of the alternatives, and the monopoly deals with every PC manufacturer that pay MS for every PC sold, whether it has Windows or not.

The problem Microsoft has is that their dominance of the PC market has been based on being able to control that market, and that can’t last forever.

tom on April 17, 2008 at 2:50 PM

Which makes just as much sense as taking your word for how much better Windows is because you work at Microsoft.

That’s kinda like saying I should “take your word for how much better Montana is because you like in the US.” Again, I have nothing to do with Windows. Jesus Christ, at least read the comments before responding to me.

Worse, you’re not just comparing apples to oranges, but without talking about individual applications on Linux, or individual server applications, you really don’t even have an orange to compare your apple to.

That’s sort of my point. There is no comparable solution on Linux for the desktop.

Again, Linux is a great server platform. It is a crappy desktop platform. The community is too fragmented, there are too many distros, etc., for a suitable replacement to emerge, beyond some simple taks like checking email and writing a letter to grandma. Aside from Firefox (which is not a “Linux” app), I can’t think of a single *nux desktop app that approaches the quality of the commercial alternative.

If you are willing to settle for software that is “okay” at best, then open source is great. But it absolutely, inarguably, does NOT compete with commercial software. This goes beyond Linux v. Windows.

(I’m talking end-user, desktop apps, here… dev tools are a different story. PHP, ruby, python, vim, emacs, apache, perl, mysql, etc., are phenominal OSS products.)

DaveS on April 17, 2008 at 3:07 PM

wow…a lot of typos, again, in that last one. :-)

DaveS on April 17, 2008 at 3:08 PM

The Vista box fell a couple days later. So no preening around like a peacock.

raz0r on April 17, 2008 at 8:02 AM

yea to an Adobe flaw that effects all platforms.

Chakra Hammer on April 17, 2008 at 4:04 PM

BTW, how many security flaws are in Quicktime? LMAO.

Chakra Hammer on April 17, 2008 at 4:07 PM

That’s what I was trying to point out Chakra. Most of the “problems with Vista” are actually problems with software developed by lazy 3rd parties.

DaveS on April 17, 2008 at 4:12 PM

I’m still trying to figure out Windows 3.0. Good thing my trusty Tandy TRS-80 is up to the job!

TugboatPhil on April 17, 2008 at 4:14 PM

I got three seconds into it and closed it faster than that midget porn popup ad that plagues every download site on the net.

I am forever scarred none the less.

One Angry Christian on April 17, 2008 at 5:01 PM

DaveS on April 17, 2008 at 1:57 PM

DaveS,

I clearly said bare metal, which means, oh smart one, that you have no OS installed. In which case, that means no matter what, you lose.

You’ll have to install Vista before you can even get to installing a driver. I can install the nVidia driver as part of the install on all the major distros OpenSuse, Ubuntu, Fedora). No way you can do that without creating a custom install DVD or image.

And while ATI is more difficult than nVidia, it isn’t that much harder. Oh, and I haven’t had to compile a driver in years. When’s the last time you installed a distro?

And just for disclosure, I’ve been in the biz for a very, very long time. I do networking and security, not appdev. I go back to NT 3.51 which truly sucked rocks. Used a lot of OS platforms. DOS, OS/2, Win 9x, NT4, W2k, XP, W2k3, Vista, Netware, Solaris, Linux, System 7, OS 8,9,X. Even hold a MCSE for 2k3 and a degree in comp eng. So save the smarter than thou alpha male speech for the g33k grrrls at the cons.

raz0r on April 17, 2008 at 7:27 PM

yea to an Adobe flaw that effects all platforms.

Chakra Hammer on April 17, 2008 at 4:04 PM

Did you not read the follow up? I said until we get to see the details, all we know is it involvves Flash, javascript and Vista (which most likely means IE7).

I also wrote this:

The thing to note from pwn2own was that both exploits were web based against what most folks would consider safe applications. No firewall to help you now. Not even application firewalls as the browser and Flash would most likely be green lighted.

Welcome to Web 2.0 people.

These exploits were made possible by sloppy appdev guys, not end users.

And to add to the list of sloppy software: Real Player 10.5.

It will require a huge change in the coding practices and designs to combat and protect against the new breed of web based attack vectors. Attack vectors that will show no bias regardles of the underlying OS.

raz0r on April 17, 2008 at 7:48 PM

If you are willing to settle for software that is “okay” at best, then open source is great. But it absolutely, inarguably, does NOT compete with commercial software. This goes beyond Linux v. Windows.

DaveS on April 17, 2008 at 3:07 PM

Good enough? That is exactly how Microsoft got to where it is now. By being good enough when compared to the competition of the day. Feature bloat is ruining Windows and now Office. About 90% of the users use less than 10% of the features. To Microsoft’s credit, it is a wonder they don’t suffer from more exploits given the size and complexity of their code.

raz0r on April 17, 2008 at 7:57 PM

What features should be removed?

DaveS on April 17, 2008 at 8:40 PM

OK gang,

I’ve been in the IT Business since 1970, didn’t call it IT way back then. I thought I’d throw in my two cents before it devalues too much.

Billy Boy Gates announce a couple of weeks ago that next year Windows 7 is coming out. Not a service pack to VISTA; a whole brand spanking new Windows. Businesses spending beaucoup bucks to convert to VISTA have just been hosed. Vista is a woofer. It is the version of the NT/XP tree, like Windows ME was the version of the 95/98 tree, designed to hold the peones in place.

IIRC Microsoft has a class action lawsuit against it for putting out improper specifications about what “Vista Capable” really meant.

Yes I have used Video Studio, pretty darn slick. I also happen to like the Eclipse Open Source development platform. Depends what I am working on. Here’s a question for ya. How many non Microsoft platforms does Visual Studio run on? How many non Microsoft platforms does the stuff developed in Visual Studio run on? I can work on Eclipse on more than one platform and develop its apps for more than one platform. In short, I can develop what the end customer wants for the platform the end customer wants. Aren’t we supposed to be more interested in pleasing the customer rather than putting out stuff few except those with the deepest pockets will want or can afford? Eclipse may not be as slick, (and believe me, in some place … yuch) but using it gives the end user not just the developer options. (There is mono on Linux for .Net, but so far it doesn’t impress me)

Personally, I’d like to see the folks at MS concentrate their occasional flashes of brilliance into dazzling multi-platform products so I can pick where I want to run them. I’d like to see them adhere more to standards (Their OOXML may be a step in the right direction. Too early to tell yet) and instead of making good idea enhancements to standards copyrighted, proprietary code give back to the standards organizations.

Regarding what should Microsoft cut out, it should cut out enough to be able to like OpenSuse 10.2 can, run its Windows GUI (KDE in the Linux case), OpenOffice, Java apps, web browsing and a host of other applications on a 500 Mhz 480 MB of RAM 8 year old PC with an NVIDIA video card of only 64 MB of RAM. When Vista can do that talk to me. Granted, it ain’t a screamer, but then neither are some of the “Vista capable” machines that were sold.

Duncan Khuver on April 17, 2008 at 9:46 PM

BTW that boat anchor PC I mentioned originally ran Windows NT which didn’t support USB ports. the old clunker printer bought with it died and the company was too cheap to go beyond $80 for a printer. The reason 480 MB of ram is because the motherboard did some real weird stuff with RAM. Couldn’t find NT drivers for newer printers so forget a network printer or almost any stand alone printer, all the low end stuff was USB only, I knew OpenSuse would work installed it, and badda boom, badda bing problem solved. Perfect? No, but I was able to do something with the toy operating system I couldn’t do with Windows.

Duncan Khuver on April 17, 2008 at 9:56 PM

I clearly said bare metal, which means, oh smart one, that you have no OS installed. In which case, that means no matter what, you lose.

You’ll have to install Vista before you can even get to installing a driver. I can install the nVidia driver as part of the install on all the major distros OpenSuse, Ubuntu, Fedora). No way you can do that without creating a custom install DVD or image.

And while ATI is more difficult than nVidia, it isn’t that much harder. Oh, and I haven’t had to compile a driver in years. When’s the last time you installed a distro?

And just for disclosure, I’ve been in the biz for a very, very long time. I do networking and security, not appdev. I go back to NT 3.51 which truly sucked rocks. Used a lot of OS platforms. DOS, OS/2, Win 9x, NT4, W2k, XP, W2k3, Vista, Netware, Solaris, Linux, System 7, OS 8,9,X. Even hold a MCSE for 2k3 and a degree in comp eng. So save the smarter than thou alpha male speech for the g33k grrrls at the cons.

raz0r on April 17, 2008 at 7:27 PM

Integrating drivers into a Vista DVD is not hard.

Chakra Hammer on April 17, 2008 at 11:02 PM

Billy Boy Gates announce a couple of weeks ago that next year Windows 7 is coming out. Not a service pack to VISTA; a whole brand spanking new Windows. Businesses spending beaucoup bucks to convert to VISTA have just been hosed. Vista is a woofer. It is the version of the NT/XP tree, like Windows ME was the version of the 95/98 tree, designed to hold the peones in place.

Duncan Khuver on April 17, 2008 at 9:46 PM

DONT SWITCH FROM Windows 95/Windows 98 to Windows2000 or Windows XP

WAHHHH!!!!!!!!

Chakra Hammer on April 17, 2008 at 11:16 PM

“Windows 7″ is NOT coming out next year.

DaveS on April 18, 2008 at 12:04 AM

Hey DaveS… I’m a v- in B50 and believe it or not there is at least three other HotAir.com fans in the immediate area. Look me up in the GAL as my v- alias is similar to my HotAir comment ID.

ScottMcC on April 18, 2008 at 1:26 AM

BTW, how many security flaws are in Quicktime? LMAO.

Chakra Hammer on April 17, 2008 at 4:07 PM

I hate I missed that question until just now, because that question has been answered. For the last six months of 2007, Quicktime flaws accounted for 8% of all browser plugin flaws. That is a very bad number.

But ActiveX accounted for 79% of all flaws. Basically, 8 out of 10 flaws. If you want to be safe on the internet, avoid Internet Explorer. It won’t guarantee your safety — nothing will — but it’s the single biggest step you can take to avoid spyware and viruses.

Granted, ActiveX is a framework for browser plugins, so you could make the case that it’s not fair to compare it to an ordinary plugin like Quicktime. But that makes no difference: it’s a bad plugin framework, and that much was clear from Day One, yet it kept being used.

So why did Microsoft use it and push it if it didn’t benefit the customer? Because it benefited them. ActiveX was a club to beat Netscape with. The more sites that required ActiveX, the less people used Netscape, because Netscape didn’t support it.

tom on April 18, 2008 at 1:44 AM

Integrating drivers into a Vista DVD is not hard.

Chakra Hammer on April 17, 2008 at 11:02 PM

I never said it was. I said he’d have to do that in order to install the driver during the install. Something I can do now with my distro of choice, which happens to be OpenSuse.

And yes DaveS, most of us know Windows 7 is not coming out next year. And most likely not in 2010 either. To quote Dick Cheney. “So what?”

raz0r on April 18, 2008 at 7:37 AM

Without the exploit code/steps being published, no one has any way of verifying that this exploit is cross platform. As of right now, it is only known that it involved Flash (and some javascript) on a Vista box, to which I surmise also involved IE7.

But somehow it only counts for vista eh? The hackers said it was cross platform. Adobe after hearing about the exploit updated flash for every platform.

Again, the reason why linux wa still up there is because once an exploit is used it can’t be used on another system.

LordDaMan on April 18, 2008 at 11:39 AM

You do all relize that was a spoof right?

http://www.news.com/8301-10787_3-9920713-60.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20

Seems like again the MSM (well MSM tech news anywayus) had littl to no clue what they where talking about, and made up stories to fit what they wanted to say

LordDaMan on April 18, 2008 at 11:42 AM

But somehow it only counts for vista eh? The hackers said it was cross platform. Adobe after hearing about the exploit updated flash for every platform.

Again, the reason why linux wa still up there is because once an exploit is used it can’t be used on another system.

LordDaMan on April 18, 2008 at 11:39 AM

And yet it was a Vista box that fell to it first. So much for DEP and UAC. /sarc

What I haven’t seen addressed regarding pwn2own is the privileges of the accounts on the Mac or Vista box. I’m going to guess it was default accounts (which would mean super-user). Bad,bad,bad. Never, ever do that. Create a regular user account.

If so, I’d like to know if these same exploits would work against users with reduced privileges. My guess is that the exploit might fire off, but fail since the exploit process would be running with the same reduced privileges as the user.

raz0r on April 18, 2008 at 1:23 PM

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