Notice that I offered my congratulations as well. You might have missed that.

shick on April 17, 2008 at 9:35 AM

You’re right, I did miss that. Thank you too.

Would you have addressed a British judge as such?

Yes actually–back then anyway. Because “worship” in English usage in that older time didn’t mean “the honor we reserve exclusively to God.” If it meant what it meant today? No I would not call a judge that. Because like you, I believe we only worship God.

But lots of people, Catholic and non, believe the Pope is “holy.” I think lots of non-Catholic Christians are holy too (you point out Scripture tells us we should be – the root word means “set apart [for God]” after all. I don’t see anything wrong with calling the Pope that, nor with calling YOU holy – after all, as a Christian, in Christ you are holy.

Anyway. Totally respect your convictions and the reasons for your desire not to use that honorific w/ Benedict XVI. But I find it hard to knock others for using it I guess. I always think of that quote attributed to Augustine when in situations like this: “in essentials, unity; in doubtful matters, liberty; in all things, charity.” And a better one, from Our Lord Himself: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”

inviolet on April 17, 2008 at 10:09 AM

Do you know that as Protestants we are referred to in the Roman Catholic Catechism as “seperated bretheren”? By calling us this Rome does not include us as fellow Christians
shick on April 17, 2008 at 2:18 PM

I’m sorry to contradict you again but this is important. “Separated brethren” is indeed a phrase that the Catholic Church uses. It means that we are brothers in Christ, aka fellow Christians. NOWHERE is it claimed that other Christians are not Christians; just the opposite is true. (Catholics are Christians too BTW; many non-Catholic Christians deny this.) “Separated” just means that we are not in full unity (though we would like to be) because some of our doctrine is different. But a lot of it is the same, something the many non-Catholic Christians I talk to find surprising once we get into the nitty gritty of the details.

Here it is in the Catechism itself:

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”272

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth”273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.”274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”276

Toward unity

820 “Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time.”277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: “That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me.”278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279

***

Rome’s catechism also states that none can be saved outside of the Roman Catholic Church.
shick on April 17, 2008 at 2:18 PM

Not blaming you, but really this is a grave misreading of Catholic teaching and the Catechism. See the same quote above and I trust you will see that the fact that the Catholic Church believes that Jesus intended one church with the same unity He and the Father have (that’s preettty darn unified and implies complete doctrinal unity) does not equal “we don’t think other Christians are Christians.”

Another long post and I’m sorry about that. But IMO it’s really important to correct this misunderstanding with other Christians when it pops up.

(Just FYI I tend to avoid the term “Protestants” because many non-Catholic Christians I speak to find that term offensive and derivative: “We’re not ‘protesting’ anything, we’re just Christians.” Obviously the term’s not offensive to everyone. )

inviolet on April 17, 2008 at 2:56 PM

shick on April 17, 2008 at 4:04 PM

schick, have been checkin’ in and am sorry we didn’t touch base tonight (need to go out now) but hopefully we’ll see each other on other threads. Maybe cs89 (and thanks, cs89, for the kind words re: Benedict’s faith) will show you other refs too besides the one I provided (and the paragraphs around it – see link in my post).

And here’s one more, the Wikipedia (not complete but not misleading) article on the teaching we were talking about–the section that touches on how Catholics understand it (please follow the links provided in the article for a fuller explanation). Hope you have a good evening.

inviolet on April 17, 2008 at 8:27 PM