Dem Debate: Obama’s Waterloo
posted at 10:30 pm on April 16, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
The last Democratic debate has finally concluded, and perhaps the last chances of ending the primaries early. Thanks to a surprisingly tenacious set of questions for Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton from ABC moderaters Charles Gibson and George Stephanopolous, Barack Obama got exposed over and over again as an empty suit, while Hillary cleaned his clock. However, the big winner didn’t even take the stage tonight.
The first 45 minutes of the scheduled 90-minute debate (which went 15 minutes over) wound up focusing on the series of gaffes and stumbles from both candidates. Hillary more or less defused the Tuzla Dash by admitting she essentially lied about it, trying at one point to use the “sleep deprivation” defense. Obama, however, never did figure out the First Rule of Holes. Once again, he described religion as a refuge people use when government doesn’t work — a fatal misreading of religious faith in America. He not only came up with bad answers, he looked lost and tentative throughout the entire period.
Hillary didn’t let him off the hook, either, not when it came to Crackerquiddick or on the Wright Stuff. Noting that “you choose your pastor, not your family,” Hillary once again pounded Obama for not doing anything about Wright when he had the chance. She also jumped at the chance to note that former Weather Underground terrorist William Ayers was more than just a “neighbor”, as Obama described him. Hillary pointed out that Obama and Ayers worked on a foundation together for years, even after 9/11, even after Ayers said publicly that he didn’t regret his terrorism.
And what was Obama’s response? He compared Ayers to Senator Tom Coburn, who opposes abortion. Of course, Coburn hasn’t bombed abortion clinics, but Obama can’t tell the difference between a Senator and a terrorist. That won’t help him in Middle America either, and Coburn may have a few words for Obama after this night.
By the time Gibson got around to the issues, Obama looked lost and upset. It got worse when Gibson asked about capital-gains tax rates, which Obama has pledged to raise. When Gibson repeatedly pointed out that decreasing the rates actually increased the revenues, Obama simply couldn’t come up with an answer, stammering while trying to change the subject. On guns, both Hillary and Obama stumbled through tortured explanations of how they support a Constitutional right for individuals to own guns while backing gun bans like the one in DC.
The winner of this debate? John McCain. Both Democrats came out of this diminished, but Obama got destroyed in this exchange. If superdelegates had begun to reconsider their support of Obama after Crackerquiddick, they’re speed-dialing Hillary after watching Gibson dismember Obama on national TV tonight.
And kudos to ABC News for taking on both candidates fearlessly. John McCain has to feel grateful not to be included. Don’t forget that you can read through our live blog at any time.
Blowback
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I never agree with you, but I never thought you were young and/or silly, just delusional.
Tom gets to define REALITY?? Reality is that Obama’s on the ropes, almost down for the count, as are the Dems. The only saving grace for them, is that three Dems are running this time around, and one will surely win.
JiangxiDad on April 17, 2008 at 8:36 AM
Holmes, is that really you? Good God, man, where have you been all these years?
MrLynn on April 17, 2008 at 8:41 AM
JiangxiDad on April 17, 2008 at 8:36 AM
I don’t think I get to define reality, but I do believe if someone takes a measured and reason look at Obama’s remarks, they will not come to this conclusion:
Once again, he described religion as a refuge people use when government doesn’t work — a fatal misreading of religious faith in America.
Now, the first part of the statement I don’t really have a problem with. Religion is a refuge for people when MANY things don’t work. They’re marriage, they’re job, whatever. But the a fatal misreading of religious faith in America line is just utter nonsense.
It changes the meaning of the first line to insinuate that Obama believes that government comes before religion and when government fails, THEN people turn to religion. He’s running with the old Obama The Marxist fable. But the reality is, Obama calls people’s faith a constant. And when they’re government is failing them, they tend to vote on issues that are constant to them. This is all in a political context.
But back to the original quote in San Fransisco. Now, Karl Rove devised a strategy to get swing voters to vote republican by using wedge issues like gun laws, laws with religious origins (abortion, gay marriage) and immigration. It led to the famous observation that issues like these led people to vote against their own economic self-interest.
Now, here’s Obama’s quote from San Francisco:
OBAMA: So, it depends on where you are, but I think it’s fair to say that the places where we are going to have to do the most work are the places where people are most cynical about government. The people are mis-appre…they’re misunderstanding why the demographics in our, in this contest have broken out as they are. Because everybody just ascribes it to ‘white working-class don’t wanna work — don’t wanna vote for the black guy.’ That’s…there were intimations of that in an article in the Sunday New York Times today – kind of implies that it’s sort of a race thing.
Here’s how it is: in a lot of these communities in big industrial states like Ohio and Pennsylvania, people have been beaten down so long. They feel so betrayed by government that when they hear a pitch that is premised on not being cynical about government, then a part of them just doesn’t buy it. And when it’s delivered by — it’s true that when it’s delivered by a 46-year-old black man named Barack Obama, then that adds another layer of skepticism.
But — so the questions you’re most likely to get about me, ‘Well, what is this guy going to do for me? What is the concrete thing?’ What they wanna hear is — so, we’ll give you talking points about what we’re proposing — to close tax loopholes, you know, roll back the tax cuts for the top 1 percent. Obama’s gonna give tax breaks to middle-class folks and we’re gonna provide health care for every American.
But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there’s not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it’s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.
Um, now these are in some communities, you know. I think what you’ll find is, is that people of every background — there are gonna be a mix of people, you can go in the toughest neighborhoods, you know working-class lunch-pail folks, you’ll find Obama enthusiasts. And you can go into places where you think I’d be very strong and people will just be skeptical. The important thing is that you show up and you’re doing what you’re doing.
Obama has spoken about the Republican strategy. When he lumps religion in with guns and immigration, he’s doing so in a political context. He’s basically talking about how to defeat the republican strategy of using wedge with a campaign worker.
To try and frame is as Obama thinks government is greater than religion is just… hackery at it worst. That’s the best way I can describe it.
Tom_Shipley on April 17, 2008 at 8:56 AM
Oh my the KOS KIDS are sharpening their teeth in prep for eating eachother. VERY UPSET AT ABC
Im planning the Disney trip after this, GO ABC/ESPN/DISNEY
TroubledMonkey on April 17, 2008 at 8:57 AM
I too was impressed with Charles Gibson’s intense questioning, especially of Obambi, who looked ill-at-ease at being caught flat-footed a number of times. But Missus Slick was also less than adept at deflecting the Tuzla question.
She of course refrained from criticizing Obambi directly, except for the Weatherman (surprisingly), and on SS taxes. Instead ABC gave her the perfect foil, enabling her to pretend Obambi’s missteps made him less ‘electable’, more of a target for the Republicans. The Obambi followers may have cause to complain here.
I usually grouse about these faux ‘debates’ as being nothing more than boring press conferences, but this one was more fun. I’m not even sure the Fox guys would have been this tough.
If these two end up neck and neck at the convention, the Dems will have a real dilemma: choose Obambi and risk a ‘white flight’ (as they will perceive it); choose the Missus, and risk a complete meltdown, with riots in the inner cities. What then? Turn to a ‘white horse’ candidate, like Algore? Dubious if he’d take the offer (Rush says he is afraid to debate ‘global warming’, though McCain is no risk there).
I’ll bet that’s why Edwards has not endorsed anyone. But he’d be trounced by McCain, and the Dems know it. Are there any Democrat governors with enough name recognition to step into the breach? I can’t think of one.
I know: They could nominate Jimmy Carter! He’s only served one term. Oh wait—he’s even older than McCain.
MrLynn on April 17, 2008 at 9:02 AM
Get a grip sir. I would assume Ed has no dog in the Democratic race, but I could be wrong.
Just for the record, last night in the debate, when Gibson asked Obama to clarify his position on no tax increases for the middle class making less than 200-250K, to which he did, and was subsequently called out on his proposed payroll tax for income over 97K, was he taken out of context?
awake on April 17, 2008 at 9:02 AM
Elitists talk in such hifalutin tones it’s hard for us commonfolk to know what they’re sayin. You might wanna pass that on to your bud Barry :)
JiangxiDad on April 17, 2008 at 9:06 AM
Listen to Rush today, 12 noon EDT. He’ll explain.
MrLynn on April 17, 2008 at 9:06 AM
JiangxiDad on April 17, 2008 at 9:06 AM
I’ll let him know the next time we meet for tea.
Tom_Shipley on April 17, 2008 at 9:15 AM
I hope that misrepresenting Obama’s point is not going to convince anyone to vote against Obama. Why misrepresent the gist of what Obama says, when we can win honestly?
thuja on April 17, 2008 at 9:16 AM
Thank you Mr. Lynn. That was a nice re-cap and a complete pleasure to read. Enjoy your morning Sir.
JiangxiDad on April 17, 2008 at 9:20 AM
Thanks for posting the longer quote from San Francisco. Obambi may be talking about political strategy, but his main point is that these blue-collar guys are disenchanted with government because the jobs have disappeared over the last three decades, so they ‘cling’ to guns, religion, and ethnocentrism. All he has to do is convince them that an Obambi government will make everything better (repeal “tax cuts for the rich,” socialize medicine, kill free trade, etc., as if that would bring the jobs back—a fatuous notion at best), and the ‘wedge issues’ will disappear, i.e. Joe Six-Pack will stop ‘clinging’ to guns, religion, and ethnocentrism.
This view amounts to the claim that government trumps all. It assumes that Joe Six-Pack is incapable of rational thought or principled stands (e.g. for the Second Amendment and his gun rights; for morality and religion, including the right to life; against an open border and illegal immigration; etc.). Because it was those principled stands that the Republicans used to appealed to blue-collar Democrats, and the Democrats ignore them to their peril.
Joe Six-Pack isn’t stupid. He knows that government isn’t going to resurrect the Rust Belt; and he knows that government can tax him more, take away his guns, and repeal laws that preserve the moral fabric of society. He might be hoodwinked by smooth talk and suave promises, but otherwise he won’t vote for someone promising more government.
Obambi’s view is that America is divided into ‘classes’, and these ‘working class’ folks are as seduced by ‘the opiate of the people’ as Marx said they were. Obambi is wrong; there are no classes in America, and Joe Six-Pack knows it. He knows that even if he is too old or stuck in his ways to follow the jobs to the South and Southwest, his kids can; and they can go to school and get better-paying jobs; and they can become millionaires (most of the millionaires in this country are new millionaires). He knows the government is not going to do this for them; that in America you pursue your dreams and you can realize them. And he is not going to vote for someone who says that isn’t true.
MrLynn on April 17, 2008 at 9:38 AM
Good Gosh! I always thought that I was middle class. I guess I better sign up for gov’t assistance. /sarc yes!!
PappaMac on April 17, 2008 at 10:28 AM
I thought Charlie’s tacit acknowledgement that supply side economics works was the most shocking part of the whole evening. Gibson went on to acknowledge that people other than billionaire fat-cats benefit from a reduction in capital gains.
moxie_neanderthal on April 17, 2008 at 10:35 AM
Depends upon your age, locale, state/local/property tax burden, number of children, cost of housing, etc.
In some states, while salaries may seem high, costs are enormous. I believe that many people in high salary/high cost of living states have concluded that moving to the South and southwest where those conditions don’t prevail results in a higher standard of living and a better quality of life.
$150-200,000 for a family of 4 in the suburbs of many E. Coast and W. Coast cities would allow for only a middle-class lifestyle. 1500 sq. ft 1950′s-style unrenovated cookie-cutter houses on an 1/8 or 1/16 of an acre can easily start at $500,000+.
JiangxiDad on April 17, 2008 at 10:39 AM
Never occurred to either of these socialists that the reason America is bitter is because they are taxed too much and regulated too much … does it? They have it completely backasswards if they think people want government to take over everything.
Relieving you of your responsibilities is just a surreptitious way of removing you of your rights. Without responsibility there can be no rights.
tarpon on April 17, 2008 at 10:42 AM
Tom Shipley,
I think you have a point that Obama (at the debate) said “politically” people fall back on those issues. But it doesn’t make much sense to me. People who feel the government hasn’t done enough for them economically will continue to vote for those who haven’t done enough because they seems to share their religious, etc. values? Doesn’t that imply an opinion that such voters are not too smart?
mikeyboss on April 17, 2008 at 10:48 AM
Holmes, what is “Operation Chaos”…?
Some refer to it, yet do not define it.
J_Gocht on April 17, 2008 at 11:02 AM
Rush Limbaugh getting people to vote D in the open primaries to keep Hillary in the race and make it long, drawn out and rancorous. And it’s working.
Ciannaky on April 17, 2008 at 11:21 AM
Barry did some big time teeth clenching last night.
He and that loudmouth wife really do feel entitled to the office.
Affirmative action has given them that attitude…
Lovely.
benrand on April 17, 2008 at 11:23 AM
I don’t listen to Rush but I believe Op Chaos is when Repubs and Indies vote for Hilly.
I couldn’t watch or listen much to this, another dog and pony show, all 4 of them make me sick. The non-issue questions, the lame answers, the weird staple in the cheek smile that Herself always has now when Bo is trying to nail her.
Speaking of nailing, tarpon did it:
“Never occurred to either of these socialists that the reason America is bitter is because they are taxed too much and regulated too much … does it? They have it completely backasswards if they think people want government to take over everything.
Relieving you of your responsibilities is just a surreptitious way of removing you of your rights. Without responsibility there can be no rights”.
Christine on April 17, 2008 at 11:37 AM
ABC had the guts to do what MSNBC or CNN didn’t, ask tough questions.
KBird on April 17, 2008 at 11:45 AM
Last night the Emperor was unveiled, and it hurts the ‘lovers’.
Entelechy on April 17, 2008 at 12:00 PM
The dems are doing a fine job exposing who they are, and destroying themselves, with the great expose of the media, (expose of the dems, and of themselves, the media).
Mephistopheles, you magnificent…
Actually, JiangxiDad, you magnificent thinker!
The truth somehow always surfaces. Good thing.
Entelechy on April 17, 2008 at 12:11 PM
Thanks folks…!
Not bitter…not bitter at all…!
J_Gocht on April 17, 2008 at 12:26 PM
J_Gocht, who do you blame for home foreclosures?
Entelechy on April 17, 2008 at 12:33 PM
The point is not REALITY.
Perception is not REALITY.
But, reality is REALITY.
And reality is that the Emperor has been unveiled.
Entelechy on April 17, 2008 at 12:37 PM
Well, there’s always Bill Richardson, having cold sweats at night,…but somehow I think even more of Hillary’s fan base might switch to McCain, if he were selected to become the great unifier.
a capella on April 17, 2008 at 12:38 PM
So, how do you feel about free trade status with Colombia?
a capella on April 17, 2008 at 12:41 PM
I guess that’s why they call you “dittoheads.” Try thinking for yourself.
Grow Fins on April 17, 2008 at 12:42 PM
Guess they should try and be more downhome like Coulter, Rove, Limbaugh et al. Real home cookin’ kinda folks.
Grow Fins on April 17, 2008 at 12:45 PM
Some of us do. You do the same. Grow up; the sooner, the better your life will be, and the freer.
Entelechy on April 17, 2008 at 12:49 PM
BIG BAILED OUT BANKERS…that didn’t require 20 percent down or make appropriate credit checks of their borrowers and then rebundled and resold their worthless paper to other BIG BANKERS, ETC, etc, etc…!
The Fed should have put the money guarantees into Freddie and Fannie to help the “little guys” and let “BS” eat all the worthless cellulose they were holding.
J_Gocht on April 17, 2008 at 12:53 PM
So, those borrowers making poor decisions bear no responsibility. Thanks. I’ll try that on my banker the next time I apply for a non-secured loan.
a capella on April 17, 2008 at 1:03 PM
You’re using the wrong adjective; it should be “fair” trade. It’s similar to NAFTA or our so called “free” trade policy with China.
Until you can see more than three blocks down the street thru the filthy gray haze in Beijing or Mexico City and most the people don’t have to wear masks when working outdoors and they have the same occupational health and safety rules as we have… There ain’t no such thing as “fair or free” trade this pilgrim believes!
J_Gocht on April 17, 2008 at 1:13 PM
Well if it’s anything last past experience with the BIG BANKERS; you won’t have any problem at all, a capella!
J_Gocht on April 17, 2008 at 1:17 PM
Richardson is a genuine lightweight, as his woefully silly performance in the Democrat cattle shows (er, ‘debates’) showed. His comments and proposals were idiotic at best, and brainless at worst. I don’t think anyone except Carville treats him seriously.
Note that Rush has picked up on my point: The Dems have to find a third candidate, or they’re doomed. The fun is, they know it, and can’t do anything about it.
Name another Democrat who could fill the bill. How old is Mario Cuomo?
MrLynn on April 17, 2008 at 1:18 PM
J_Gocht, you mentioned only one culprit. Screw the banks, and the irresponsible, what you call “little guy”, who bought homes when they shouldn’t have.
98% of us are responsible.
Entelechy on April 17, 2008 at 1:20 PM
I would like to think that I am a little more astute than this, but can somebody tell me what is the problem with Tom Coburn? He is my senator and he had such integrity as a congressman to not accept pork funds to improve the I44 bottleneck east of Tulsa, even at the potential displeasure of his constituents. Any other senator would jump at the chance. He appears to me to be a man of his word. He is a practicing OB/GYN which might explain his anti-abortion stance. He does hold the other senators’ feet to the anti-pork fire. How does a man like this get compared unfavorably to an unrepentant terrorist, and why does the media not call Obama on it? Maybe he is a terrorist only to the pork loving senators.
Old Country Boy on April 17, 2008 at 1:20 PM
Guys,
A little off-topic within the Dem primary, but this piece of news from Idaho is too rich!
newton on April 17, 2008 at 1:25 PM
Good for you. It’s the lender’s responsibility to “vet” the borrower, remember?
J_Gocht on April 17, 2008 at 1:29 PM
Apologies…off topic.
J_Gocht on April 17, 2008 at 1:31 PM
.
Maybe this is the third candidate they have been looing for…
Think_b4_speaking on April 17, 2008 at 1:32 PM
Think_b4_speaking on April 17, 2008 at 1:32 PM
Shades of Ann Coulter in Florida; was she ever prosecuted for registering and voting in the wrong district?
Nah, that’s Florida after all…!
J_Gocht on April 17, 2008 at 1:44 PM
Apologies…off topic.
J_Gocht on April 17, 2008 at 1:46 PM
Was Ann Cholter from Palm Beach County, Florida?
I under stand you can get away with smuggling ED drugs into and using powerful prescription pain killers with alacrity without being prosecuted, there?
Sorry; really off topic!
J_Gocht on April 17, 2008 at 2:01 PM
alphie, that you?
The same “alphie” from Captains Quarters commentors, who claimed to be Hillary’s-”Man”-but-will-vote-for-Obama, who seldom say anthying Hillary, but would come out swinging anytime anybody said anything about St. Barak to fight for the “unjust targeting of Obama”?
The old one and the same alphie?
Sir Napsalot on April 17, 2008 at 2:58 PM
Ed, I cannot can’t get ABBAs refrain out of my head since I saw this headline and I hold you totally responsible. Well you and ABBA. :^) Bitter whitey here. ahahahahahaha
Branch Rickey on April 17, 2008 at 4:40 PM
This post gets quoted in an AP article about the debate:
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080417/tv_abc_s_debate.html
brak on April 17, 2008 at 7:56 PM
The Dems have Waterloo’s daily. Their minions are simply too stupid or ignorant to notice.
Mojave Mark on April 17, 2008 at 8:24 PM
Hello, I’m Barack Obama. I’m speaking candidly to you tonight, in an effort to correct some of the misinformation circulating about me. Unlike my father, who supported 100% tax rates, I believe in the strength of American free enterprise. I’m certainly not anti-religious, as my twenty years of faithful membership in a racist, hate-filled lunatic cult proves beyond a shadow of a doubt. I believe I’m the leader who can heal America’s wounds and transcend the issues of race, a position I reached after decades of silently fuming in rage while my sub-moron of a religious leader called for America’s damnation and accused the white government of inventing AIDS and crack. Although, for complex reasons that are probably beyond your ability to understand, I refused until recently to wear an American flag pin, I love my country and salute its rich history of moral leadership. I definitely don’t agree with my wife, who thinks my election would be the first time she wasn’t ashamed of her country, and seems angry that she is forced to scrape by on three times the median American family income. I’m prepared to take those three a.m. phone calls and defend this country from terrorists, except for the ones I have dinner with, and even though one of my friends is a murderous scumbag who wishes he’d set off more bombs in the Sixties, I certainly don’t intend to let anyone set off any bombs now. Although my church supports Louis Farrakhan and lets Hamas write editorials in its newsletter, I’m the best friend the Jewish people ever had, and I plan to prove it by unconditionally surrendering to Islamist fanatics in Iraq, assuming I can find any living ones after the U.S. military spends the rest of Bush’s term working them over. I’m also the best friend the American soldier has ever had, although every other elected representative from my party thinks they’re either war criminals or helpless children. I can offer this country the bipartisan leadership it needs, by reaching across the aisle to people like my friend Tom Coburn, who is just like a terrorist. Thank you, and good evening. Oh, and by the way, saying my middle name is illegal. I just thought you should know that, so you don’t get in even more trouble when I send the BATF around to collect your guns and Bibles.
Doctor Zero on April 17, 2008 at 9:43 PM
Well done, Doctor Zero!
That’s worth copying and sending around, folks.
MrLynn on April 18, 2008 at 12:21 AM
Agree – that pretty much sums up Barry Hussein Obama in a nutshell.
NoDonkey on April 18, 2008 at 10:48 AM
Dang I’m glad I read this thread.
RushBaby on April 18, 2008 at 11:03 AM
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