unclesmrgol on April 17, 2008 at 1:08 AM

No, because I was being quite serious! I think he told the good news of God’s love for what he created very very well! I was NOT being sarcastic because I agree with St. Olaf! This is one subject where I refuse to exhibit sarcasm…

platypus on April 17, 2008 at 1:52 AM

Like the Huffpo article, you are making wide generalizations and un-Biblical statements.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell(Hades) delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell(Hades) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:10-15

Judgements made on Judgement day,unregenerate man cast into “Hell” the lake of fire.
Next.

“Nobody can go to hell since we are all born into hell (this planet under the curse)”.

Now you’re making it sound like the “new age” doctrine,”there’s no hell..earth is hell..everyone goes to heaven no matter what”….also,like your statement, completely false and un-Biblical.

The fallen earth is not hell. A cursed earth is just that, a cursed earth. The earth is no way the same thing as the final destination of unregenerate man.

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:40-42

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 25:30

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 21:8

The lake of fire or the outer darkness, whatever it is called, is where unregenerate man is heading and will not be a fun place to be, by any stretch of the imagination.

One is that on judgment day, the decision is made about whether one’s sins are forgiven. This is false. Yeshua (Jesus) already forgave all sins ever committed by permitting himself to be sacrificed on the cross.

Two is that anybody is going to hell or that hell is the lake of fire. Nobody can go to hell since we are all born into hell (this planet under the curse). The real issue is who is going to get out of here by returning to the Father’s house to dwell there forever.

Yeshua made that perfectly clear – no one gets to the Father except through Him (Yeshua). That means a person must be born again of the Spirit. Your first birth got you here – your second birth gets you out of here.

Believing this is a choice but it is written, thus it is forever and unchanging.

SaintOlaf….Dude! Nice job of sharing the GOOD NEWS (gospel means good news) of the love God showed us by offering the supreme sacrifice…

Did you forget the sarcasm tags?

Gaunilon on April 16, 2008 at 11:15 PM

Much better than my explanation. It even explains why we are the bride and He is the Bridegroom. Thanks. :)

The sexes in humans and other animals are just a representation of this very simple concept.

Suggestion for Huffpo: take a course in Catholic theology at a good Catholic university (i.e. not one of the name-only ones that are all over the US) before you start dusting it up with Ratzinger. He’s a master on this terrain.

Reading Aquinas has no correlation at all with making a logical argument. But you’ve piked my interest; what work of his do I need to read (that I haven’t already) to truly and logically argue God, and why only that work and not others?

Nonfactor on April 16, 2008 at 6:01 PM

Am glad I’ve piqued your interest, but

Reading Aquinas has no correlation at all with making a logical argument.

I never said this; please read more carefully. “Reading” Aquinas may not directly correlate with making a logical argument, but responding to him will.

what work of his do I need to read (that I haven’t already) to truly and logically argue God, and why only that work and not others?

Please quote my entire sentence and not part of it. I said,

Most atheists I’ve encountered have read extensively of atheist authors, and some more recent arguments but I’ve yet to see one who’s read a lot of Thomas Aquinas (to take one example) and can make a logical and well thought out response.

“[T]o take one example” means, of course, that I wasn’t only recommending that author, nor only one of his works, and no others. This is so obvious I’m embarrassed to have to write it, but apparently you’re not reading carefully in the least.

Why am I pointing this out and making an issue of it? Because you say you’ve read Thomas Aquinas but if you’re reading him as “carefully” as you read a simple sentence in a non-philosopher’s thread post, I seriously wonder if you understood much of what he said and am fairly certain you couldn’t make a logical and well-thought-out response. Sorry to be so blunt but your careless reading asks for bluntness.

To answer your question on the specific work, why don’t you start with Aquinas’ Summa Theologica, Question 2, Articles 1 through 3, and continue from there. Please read it carefully and thoroughly.

Have already spent way too much time on this thread today so I have to attend to other things but happy reading, and see you around the threads.

SaintOlaf on April 16, 2008 at 5:19 PM

Dude! Nice job of sharing the GOOD NEWS (gospel means good news) of the love God showed us by offering the supreme sacrifice of the blood of his unblemished son, once and for all, instead of the blood of the sheep and doves that the Levitical priests kept offering, which had to be offered over and over! I applaud you!

Jesus said, “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth” (John 4:23-24)

Also, Christ himself specifically refers to God as “Father” numerous times, doesn’t he? That would seem like … a clue.

AP,

God is not a man. He is a Spirit. However, it is clear in the Bible that God chose masculine pronouns and responsibilities to reveal Himself to us. By using the male titles, God made it easier for us to understand Him. Jesus said, “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirL�K,�5xn truth” (John 4:23-24). Jesus says that the Father is a Spirit, not that the Father has a spirit; this means that He lacks a body entirely. As Jesus tells us elsewhere, “a spirit has not flesh and bones” (Luke 24:39). Now when God appeared to men in the form of a human, we call that appearing a theophany. It is God taking upon Himself the temporary form of a man in order to interact with any given individual. Christ had a body while on earth so He could relate to us and be the perfect sacrifice on the Cross for our sins; but God is back in Spirit mode now (so to speak). God is a Spirit (i.e. non-body). He assumed flesh for us. He has revealed Himself, not only in creation but also in His human incarnation in the Lord Jesus. Hope that helps. That’s the best way I know how to explain it. I’ll let the website gotquestions.org take it from here:

In countless references to God in Scripture, there is clearly a consistent pattern of His being referred to with masculine titles, nouns, and pronouns. While God is not a man, but is a Spirit, He chose a masculine form in order to reveal Himself to mankind. Likewise, Jesus Christ, who is constantly referred to with masculine titles, nouns, and pronouns, took a male form while He walked on the earth. The prophets of the Old Testament and the Apostles of the New Testament refer to both God and Jesus Christ with masculine names and titles. God chose to be revealed in this form in order for man to more easily grasp who God is. To assert that God chose a female form to be revealed to man is not consistent with the pattern established by Scripture. Again, had God chosen a feminine form, there would be more evidence in Scripture of that. That evidence simply does not exist. While God makes allowances in order to help mankind understand Him, it is important to not try to “force God into a box,” so to speak, by placing limitations on Him that are not appropriate to the nature of who He is. SOURCE

The New Testament speaks against it as well:

“For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, … Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.” Romans 1:26-32

I agree with Skidd who writes, “This is a secular cry-baby WILLINGLY distorting scripture and turning logic on it’s head, then stating, “See, my logic is the TRUE logic.” There’s too much in HuffPo’s pathetic post to deconstruct.” –Skidd on April 15, 2008 at 10:44 PM

This is another sad attempt at skewing God’s Word. These are people who want nothing to do with God and everything to do with their own leftist slants on sexuality, politics, and lifestyles.

SaintOlaf on April 16, 2008 at 5:19 PM

Twisted.

RiverCocytus on April 16, 2008 at 10:42 AM

The point still stands that all living people have souls. The reason I made my post was because someone started talking as if that weren’t true. My only goal was to point out how ignorant he was.

Most atheists I’ve encountered have read extensively of atheist authors, and some more recent arguments but I’ve yet to see one who’s read a lot of Thomas Aquinas

inviolet on April 16, 2008 at 1:20 PM

Reading Aquinas has no correlation at all with making a logical argument. But you’ve piked my interest; what work of his do I need to read (that I haven’t already) to truly and logically argue God, and why only that work and not others?

nothing is impossible if God is omnipotent

It is impossible for God to lie. It is impossible for God to do something counter to His nature. It is impossible for God to not be Good, the very essence of goodness.

God is the Mother and the Father in the same sense that Eve physically came from Adam. Adam was not female before his rib was removed, nor did he become “more male” after its removal, but the physical essence of Woman came from Man. Her bodily potentiality existed as part of Man. Thus, the complete potentiality of Woman exists within the Logos (mind of God). That doesn’t make God female (or male, for that matter). His attributed gender is not a function of physical reality (except with respect to the corporeal essence of Jesus, which is male); it is a function of role or intrinsic authority associated with His nature.

I feel so very fortunate that I don’t have to live such a fearful cruel world view.

You can think whatever you want now, but it’s not going to change anything for you on judgement day!

Just because you don’t believe it does not change the fact that there is a moral law and an inevitable judgement day.

That’s like walking out into oncoming traffic and saying “It’s ok..I don’t believe in cars”.

Or like jumping out of a plane at 20,000 feet and saying, “It’s ok,I don’t believe in gravity”. It doesn’t change anything.

God says throughout the Bible

“I have written my Law in man’s hearts”

Every single person on earth has a conscience and knows what is right and what is wrong.

All around us we are surrounded by very harsh laws…law of gravity, law of thermodynamics, electricity etc..

Nobody gets mad at the law of gravity… you don’t stick your finger in a electrical socket. You work with these laws.

Just because you don’t believe in it, does not change the fact that God’s moral Law (which is written in all mankind’s hearts) exists.

Unless you have ALWAYS kept God’s Law(which no man has) and have never lied,stolen,blasphemed,lusted,unjustly hated,committed idolatry (i.e not believed God’s Word),not honored your parents,coveted,not kept the Sabbath, or not put anything ahead of God in importance ever, then you are not completely holy and on judgement day you will be cast into the lake of fire!

Many people mistakenly believe that God will just forgive people for no reason. Make no mistake…He will not.
When you are born again you will not only see God as a god of forgiveness but see Him as He truly is…a God of Holiness…a God of Justice and a God of Truth!

God is Holy and will not allow unholiness into His presence!

God is Just and if He does not judge all unholiness He would be a corrupt judge!

A debt needs to be paid or there is no justice!

There is only ONE WAY to transcend God’s judgement on judgement day..and God loves us enough to give us this option..God came to earth as a man(He begot His Son), Jesus Christ, He lived a perfect life, He never sinned once in thought, word or deed. Even though He was innocent He was killed and in doing so He paid our fine for us!

The last thing He said on the cross was “It is finished”
He had done what He had come here for..to die for our sins.

He was crucified, buried and three days later rose from the grave, he conquered death and lives today….all who repent,turn from sin and put their whole faith in Jesus Christ will be born again, all your sins will be washed away(as the fine was paid already) and you will be filled with His Holy Spirit.

You will take on Jesus Christ’s righteousness before God on judgment day! This is the ONLY WAY that anyone gets to heaven!

All men who do not believe in Jesus and who are not born again will not go to heaven but will instead face God’s righteous judgement on judgement day!

Think about this, even theoretically,(pay attention jews)if the Bible IS true..and God sent His only begotted Son to die for our sins, that all who believe in Him shall be given everlasting life, and we rejected Him…How big of an insult is that to God?

Man’s damning sin is not believing in Jesus Christ and accepting His free gift!

Comes from Genesis 1, the KJV 1611 Edition.

26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The “our” refers to the existence of the Holy Trinity from the beginning of time.

While the prospect of me, a godless heathen getting his comeuppance on the day of judgment may warm the cockles of your heart

The polar opposite of my worldview, and my intentions. It’s just sad that you’ve misinterpreted my intentions so completely. See you on another thread I guess.

inviolet on April 16, 2008 at 2:56 PM

I wouldn’t want to disappoint. However heartfelt, your testimony is not evidence. I remember the story of Jesus from Sunday School. Still though, outrageous claims but no proof. While the prospect of me, a godless heathen getting his comeuppance on the day of judgment may warm the cockles of your heart. I feel so very fortunate that I don’t have to live such a fearful cruel world view. I hope one day you may come to know a life free from the fear of eternal agony at the hands of an all seeing, ever watchful, “loving” torturer.

Thank you, well put.

One also wonders why those who don’t believe and won’t listen to the Pope exercise their free will to tell the Pope what to preach within his Church.

There is a general depressive air with all the damned politics perpetuating ad infinitum, while observers find little hope for our Constitution’s conservation from the remaining DNC/GOP candidates.

No ONE has all answers. But the Pope is one of the most observant, educated, genteel and internationally experienced people alive. That he honors us with his attention is a blessing, IMHO. I wish him well, and am glad for his visit to the USA. I hope we greet him well and enjoy an uplifting exercise in civility and/or respect.

Wheres the beef?

ronsfi on April 16, 2008 at 2:38 PM

ronsfi, I trust I’ve made my respect for your unbelief clear. Now I will add a coda. Most theists claim, in one
form or another (I’ll pick the most gentle form) that God told them that those who tell Him they have no interest in an eternal relationship with Him, He’ll respect their desire for that situation. Only they won’t like it when they get it, so because He loves them, He warns them to look at the evidence and choose wisely.

I don’t mind you making fun of my overlong posts (and they are overlong – cf Pascal). But I feel a bit like the Missionaries of Charity nun in India who asked for alms and a man spat in her hand. She wiped her hand and held it out again and said, “Thank you; I deserved that. Now what will you give for Jesus?”

I’m probably the 1000th person telling you He loves you and died for your (and my) sins and wants a personal relationship with you. Many theists have told you no doubt that someday you are going to be face to face with Him. If that’s true, what will you do when it happens? Will you be able to honestly (honestly now) tell Him that you searched out the claims and just could not believe, but that you did the best your conscience told you, all the time? That you did your best to live well? That you’re sorry but you didn’t know He loved you, and no one explained it well enough to make it reasonable for you?

I’m sure I’ll get a snarky answer but that doesn’t matter. What matters is what you do about the claim once you stop posting on this board. Gotta get to work so I hope you have a good day.

inviolet on April 16, 2008 at 2:27 PM

Wheres the beef?