Chinese provocateurs staging violent attacks to discredit Tibet movement?
posted at 9:42 am on April 13, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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Dafydd at Big Lizards has some documentary evidence that the attacks on the Olympic torch procession may have been planned in Beijing. One particular attack made international news when a supposed supporter of Tibet attacked a torchbearer in a wheelchair during the Paris parade:
The impression this gave the world was similar to what Chinese authorities wanted the world to think about protests in Tibet — that the Tibetans had initiated the violence and were “terrorizing” China. However, the young man attacking the wheelchair-bound torch carrier had his picture taken before this assault, only he wasn’t marching with Tibetan supporters. Dafydd has the photograph that clearly shows him as a supporter of the Beijing contingent in Paris, arriving at the parade under the Communist China flag — wearing his Tibet bandana.
Be sure to read the rest of Dafydd’s post, especially for the reaction in the Chinese blogosphere.
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Troofers!!
dave742 on April 13, 2008 at 9:50 AM
Why wouldn’t the Butchers of Beijing do this to discredit Tibet? They had agents in Tibet starting the riots which attacked Chinese merchants in Tibet.
Nothing is beneath this corrupt government.
Mooseman on April 13, 2008 at 9:56 AM
What? You mean Communists might not be trustworthy? Naw
Gatordoug on April 13, 2008 at 9:57 AM
Army of
DavidsLizardsCommentGuy on April 13, 2008 at 9:58 AM
To commies like dave, the shyster wannabe, the problem isn’t the fact that commies attempt to crush dissent. The problem is that they don’t crush it often enough…and with enough vigor.
And yes, he is a troofer to boot…
SwabJockey on April 13, 2008 at 10:00 AM
Nice catch Daffydd! Nice catch indeed! Of course you know the MSM will conveniently miss this….
Vntnrse on April 13, 2008 at 10:00 AM
OH boy, here we go.
Squid Shark on April 13, 2008 at 10:03 AM
Bu, bu, but. It’s on TV! And the inner net! It must be real!
BowHuntingTexas on April 13, 2008 at 10:04 AM
It is not beyond the realms of possibility that the Chinese are engaging in a little propaganda.
All governments do it. Bush has been singularly bad at doing it but that hardly makes him a saint. One example comes to mind – he could have turned the (true) story about America’s massive increase of aid to Africa into a massive propaganda success.
Alas he totally failed to.
PR is an essential part of governance now – I fail to see the interest in this story.
Ares on April 13, 2008 at 10:08 AM
What does that mean?
JiangxiDad on April 13, 2008 at 10:08 AM
Physical violence and intimidation is propaganda? What an asshole.
JiangxiDad on April 13, 2008 at 10:11 AM
If the allegations are true, these acts would be an outright fabrication by the Chinese government, whereas our Africa aid actually exists. Harmless this is not, as you can tell from the picture.
joewm315 on April 13, 2008 at 10:15 AM
Actually, that post was Hatched by Sachi…
Still, the Tibetan issue should not be part of the Olympics, and it is not China who has made it the issue…
Seaberry on April 13, 2008 at 10:16 AM
I love the answer to the question, would the commies really do something like that…
Zorro on April 13, 2008 at 10:24 AM
That is a fair point. I did not make mine well.
Take 2 – The IOC gave the Olympics to a classically totalitarian communist regime that does not shrink from violently subjugating its own people let alone others. This kind of thing was always on the cards. It is like the ’shock’ in Europe over the blue sweatsuit paramilitaries. Totally predictable.
We seem to find ourselves reliant on chinese manufacturing capacity through a variety of mistakes (not least allowing them to artificially depress their currency rate) and so we all tend to play nice with them. At end though they are a bunch of thugs that we are in bed with for economic reasons. The Olympics will be a wonderful showcase for the world of how awkward our marriage to new China (a market economy…of sorts…) and old China (subsistence living and mass poverty) is. Ideologically their position is unsustainable – you cannot mix a market economy with a command-and-control economy. For every David Tang there are 10 million subsistence farmers.
China is an old-school communist state flirting with market economics for obvious reasons and I find our involvement with them rather distasteful – the irony is that I am typing on a Mac that, as the box said, was “Designed in California – BUILT IN CHINA” .
They are no different from what the Russians were during the Cold War. If there is a difference it is that they realised that they had to try to generate some kind of cash stream or they would face precisely the same fate. With their faith in IP theft, globalisation ,and repression they seem to be making a go of that right now.
Ares on April 13, 2008 at 10:36 AM
Wait, you’re equating staging violent protests to perpetuate a government crackdown in an occupied territory to a Public Relations move?
Really?
Lehosh on April 13, 2008 at 10:36 AM
HHmmm.. well, that thought had occurred to me and I dismissed it as paranoia mixed with ‘troofer conspiracy theory’, but you say you have evidence?
rockhauler on April 13, 2008 at 10:44 AM
I suspect the “incident” (as it will become known) will soon be commemorated. One can imagine that PRC residents will soon be treated to a moving patriotic song written and sung by a “poor agrarian peasant.”
moxie_neanderthal on April 13, 2008 at 10:49 AM
Tibet’s Riot was Staged to begin with
Using the same kind of evidence, footage that reveals alleged violent Tibetans, hanging around with police later on.
Dr B on April 13, 2008 at 11:10 AM
First off, dunno if the Commie government is behind the riots or not. Some arguments here make think think yes, some make me think why would they.
As for the photo of the military receiving the robes there is a simple, and western explanation. Riot police the world over send officers dressed as the rioters in as snatch and grab teams. Typical police precaution the world over. ID the leaders of the crowd, work your way in close, grab him and take him away.
I’m not saying the Commies are grand, or smart, or anything else. Just trying to say there might be a simple (western) explaination of the military holding the robes.
As far as the Paris goon. There is plenty of reason to be looking into this aholes ties with the Commie government.
Limerick on April 13, 2008 at 11:20 AM
Also note the similarity between this guy, and the guy who is on camera attacking people’s faces with a knife in the Lhasa riot. I can’t imagine China being stupid enough to use a plant twice… is it possible?
Dr B on April 13, 2008 at 11:26 AM
If they did it, it shows how politically naive they are. All it did was bring additional attention to the issue and insure genuine protests elsewhere. It did nothing to discredit Tibet.
TheBigOldDog on April 13, 2008 at 11:35 AM
The idea that the Chinese would start riots in Tibet and then attack the torchbearers in other countries just before the Olympics is ridiculous on its face. There is nothing to be gained and much to be lost. Oh wait, I guess they don’t want the leaders of the RoW to actually attend the Olympics….oh, now I get it! Silly me!
TheBigOldDog on April 13, 2008 at 11:48 AM
To people who are capable of thought, there is a thing called the burden of proof.
When I hear some freak telling me that the FBI caused 9-11 because “fire can’t melt steel,” I feel more than a little bit absolutely positive that she’s a retard without seeing her IQ test results, or even listening to a second of her standup routine.
But when I hear someone accuse a Communist government of – GASP! – taking part in agitprop, the standard is somewhat different. I assume that’s pretty much always happening until and unless someone can offer me clear and convincing evidence that it is NOT happening in that specific instance.
And, as always, the “Troofer” moonbats have failed miserably to meet their burden.
logis on April 13, 2008 at 11:52 AM
They’re not China, but,……………COMMUNIST CHINA
They’re not Chinese, but,………….COMMUNIST CHINESE
DfDeportation on April 13, 2008 at 11:52 AM
Did it ever occur to any of the genius conspiracy theorists that the guy who attacked the woman in the wheelchair would avoid the Tibet protesters and march with the China Supporters in order to get close enough to actually make a grab for the torch? Have people lost every once of common sense left?
TheBigOldDog on April 13, 2008 at 11:53 AM
The protests in Tibet were escalating weeks before the riot. On top of that Muslims in the east were openly bombing trains and humanitarian journalists were getting more bold. Hours after the riot, China pounced with thousands of soldiers, but more interestingly with an intense media blitz. They have persuaded millions of people around that world that the seccessionists are violent, evil people and that western media aren’t to be trusted. If China is behind all this, I think their intentions are to fabricate a terrorist threat that justifies their brutal repression of free speech all around.
Dr B on April 13, 2008 at 11:55 AM
They did? Gee I wonder why China is being vilified in the World press then? I wonder why most of the world’s leaders will be boycotting the opening then and some not attending at all. What media are you reading that you’re getting such a different message?
TheBigOldDog on April 13, 2008 at 12:00 PM
For the same reason our law enforcement are growing their hair and beards long and scrunging up their jeans in order to infiltrate in anticipation of the DNC and RNC riots.
Blake on April 13, 2008 at 12:02 PM
Eh, its a tangled web that will blow over once the games actually start.
Look for plenty of fawning stories from the media about what a great place Communist China is, “why there aren’t even any poor people here”.
Bishop on April 13, 2008 at 12:05 PM
For the same reason our law enforcement are growing their hair and beards long and scrunging up their jeans in order to infiltrate in anticipation of the DNC and RNC riots.
I can’t see Tibetan monks smashing windows, burning cars, throwing debris at the cops or using every manner of instruments at their disposal to create havoc.
Hysterical leftie fringies they ain’t.
Bishop on April 13, 2008 at 12:09 PM
“The Chinese people have never been more united than they have become in the past month, both within China and across the world”
Also see:
Western press ‘demonises’ China
It’s a hard fact to face, that China is imitating our “war on terror” as an excuse for brutality, since we’ve gotten so beat up over it, but got to face it.
Dr B on April 13, 2008 at 12:11 PM
I’m not sure what is going to make better television, the chaos surrounding the summer Olympics or the chaos surrounding the Democratic Convention in Denver.
THE CHOSEN ONE on April 13, 2008 at 12:22 PM
Wait a second. That face. Could it be? Nah…is that…Glenn Greenwald?
Potfry on April 13, 2008 at 12:24 PM
Bishop
I’m assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that it wasn’t the Buddhist Monks doing the violence. Perhaps the rioters felt emboldened or justified because of the non violent protests of the monks.
At least I presume that is why the Chinese government felt the need to suppress the protests. The longer the protests were allowed to continue the larger the protests would become.
The mistake the government makes is not allowing journalists to document what is happening and who the rioters actually are.
The mistake the ‘Tibetan’ protesters are making is the aggressive attempts to extinguish the Olympic flame. A silent protest with tens of thousands of people would be more effective.
Which returns us to the original question, are the more aggressive protesters agents of the Chinese government?
rockhauler on April 13, 2008 at 12:41 PM
The Chinese, our ‘great’ new overloards.
Oh, how the rest of the world will miss the good ol’ U.S.A. some day, yearning for all the ‘anti-Americanism’ of yesteryear. I wish it on them with all my passion!
Entelechy on April 13, 2008 at 1:03 PM
I have no idea who the most aggressive protestors “work” for, but masquerading as the most peaceful elements leads me to wonder about the Chinese motive. I don’t have a dog in this fight and I believe you are correct that a silent protest would have been more effective, or at least a protest that didn’t involve attacking the flame, but the ChiComs are just as aggressive in their response.
Like I said, it will all be forgotten or white-washed soon enough; at this point there aren’t too many willing to take more than a token stand against the Chinese.
Bishop on April 13, 2008 at 1:09 PM
Don’t write them in yet, Ent, the Chinese have a lot of folks worried and their really endemic social problems haven’t been exposed as well as they could or will be.
Bishop on April 13, 2008 at 1:11 PM
Nice mouth you have on you there.
To answer your question, yes. Properly directed it can be considered a component part of propaganda.
Ares on April 13, 2008 at 1:11 PM
JiangxiDad:
The fact that you don’t even know what I’m getting at shows how subjective and group-centered your thought can be. It means that you have no problem coming up with “conspiracy theories” when they involve other governments, but not your own. You cannot look at issues and facts regarding your own government the same way as you look at others. Your excuse that “they are evil and we are good” simply reinforces this.
You guys are just a bunch of troofers.
dave742 on April 13, 2008 at 1:14 PM
dave742, trooferism is not a domain of just one party. Yours is just better at it. I’d love to live long enough just to see how you fair under the jihadis and the Chinese.
Entelechy on April 13, 2008 at 1:22 PM
Thankyou for posting that. Its a pretty powerful piece of investigation.
Key here is that just like the Jihadsists in Lebanon last year, they don’t understand that things are no longer being veted by the MSM (which they seem to have control over) but by the Internet. There are now tens of thousands of eyes looking at a large amount of available information… so I could totaly see them making the types of mistakes shown in the video…
!Salute! to whoever made it… and keep up the good fight.
Romeo13 on April 13, 2008 at 1:24 PM
But the Chinese thugs won’t be on the streets of Japan, because Japan showed them the
fingerdoor.Entelechy on April 13, 2008 at 1:36 PM
Actualy most of us have no problem at all looking for conspiricys in our own government… the problem comes in when there is not sufficient evidence of the conspiricy to support the “Troof”, but they still won’t let it go.
Roswell? Something more than the public knows about happened… not sure what though…
Kennedy Assasination? Sorry, lone gunman works… even though there probably were other things going on.
Apollo landings? Happened… once more, way too many people involved to keep that a secret… plus the stinkin MOON ROCKS..
9/11? Once more… too many people involved to keep it a secret… and too much evidence supporting the governments position.
War for Oil? Nah… we aint gettin crap out of Iraq…
I could go on and on… but unless there is pretty positive proof of a conspiricy, most of us will dismiss it….
This video however is much more convincing than anything I’ve seen from the American “Troofer” movements.
Romeo13 on April 13, 2008 at 1:37 PM
The Chinese stage an act so what they do to the Tibetans
is justified!
Sounds like there good at this stuff,like their jet fighter
playing chicken over international waters while the United
States Airforce was conducting routine surveillance!
Now how did that story go again,it was the Chinese at fault,
almost killed the US Airforce crew,but they played that one
for quite a time as the injured party!
canopfor on April 13, 2008 at 1:38 PM
Gee, Dave, did you truly take a look at the linked pictures? I showed them to my wife with very little explanation and her response was, “Why would the guy wear the Tibetan flag on his head while walking with people openly carrying Chinese flags unless he were one with them and a part of what they were planning?” We have no dog in this fight either, we just want to see the best athletes compete at the game to which they have proven that they are best in the world, but with all the violence surrounding the situation, one kind of has to wonder how one person displaying allegience with one side of the situation is able to walk peacefully amongst those displaying allegience with the other side THEN display such violence when the cameras are running if there was no collusion beforehand…
Vntnrse on April 13, 2008 at 1:40 PM
Madeleine Albright is unavailable for comment.
SouthernGent on April 13, 2008 at 1:54 PM
Looks like that picture of Chinese soldiers with monk’s robes is actually from around 2001-2002:
I wish they would keep protestors and all this Tibet protesting out of the Olympics…
Seaberry on April 13, 2008 at 2:26 PM
The flame of democracy fading
The most significant defeat of all has been in China, where the success of limited capitalism has not been matched by political freedom. Two decades on, and three times as rich as it was, China seems less susceptible to real change than it did when the students lit up Tiananmen Square in 1989.
China’s success is no longer seen as a temporary aberration, a sort of unsustainable balancing act that would sooner or later collapse. It is viewed increasingly by ambitious autocrats everywhere as an alternative model to the vexingly unpredictable Western version. Its biggest recruit is Vladimir Putin’s Russia, which steadily tightens its grip on the reins of political power as its business leaders exploit the lucrative opportunities of free global markets.
Today China, with its vast store of US Treasury bonds has American prosperity in its grip. Russia, with its stranglehold on continental energy resources, can intimidate Europeans. That’s why George Bush would never boycott the Beijing Olympics and why the Europeans, in a cringing genuflection to Russian“concerns”, recoiled energetically last week from proposals to expand Nato.
MB4 on April 13, 2008 at 2:43 PM
As I noted in this video, there is no difference between those uniforms and the uniforms of soldiers in photos from Tibet. No patches on the right arm and no winter dress coats.
Dr B on April 13, 2008 at 2:53 PM
Typical Chinese person…..
dmann on April 13, 2008 at 2:58 PM
http://biglizards.net/Graphics/ForegroundPix/ChineseFakeTibetanWithFriends.jpg
Is it just me, or does this picture look photoshopped?
Photoshopped very well, but still photoshopped, especially the woman in the front.
Chakra Hammer on April 13, 2008 at 3:00 PM
I remember reading someone here comment that it wasn’t all China’s fault and that the Tibeteans were acting out too.
Why anyone would trust the Chinese government is beyond me.
Tim Burton on April 13, 2008 at 3:32 PM
The Tibetans likely are acting out. It seems natural if you view your country is being occupied by a foreign invader.
dedalus on April 13, 2008 at 3:40 PM
Sachi, if your reading Hot Air, you nailed it!
Seven Percent Solution on April 13, 2008 at 4:11 PM
Pacification before the Games. For Tibetans, and Islamists to take note. It’s important for continuity of trade that the Games proceed without difficult HR issues being played out in front of the trading partners’ media. Machiavellian, and pragmatic.
What we should be thinking about is what will China do once it has completed its evisceration of the west’s economies? That China is about done with us will be witnessed by its decreasing need to commit its HR violations covertly. Eventually, they won’t need to bother.
shaken on April 13, 2008 at 4:14 PM
A commenter at Big Lizards raises a valid issue:
Apparently the picture of the troops with monk uniforms is several years old and from a different context.
Who is spoofing who here?
crosspatch on April 13, 2008 at 4:20 PM
Would saying “Fuck China!” get me banned? Should it?
***
I have never felt as useless as I do to help my country as I do against China. We have the greatest military in history. We have the bravest soldiers.
But I don’t think Americans collectively understand the Chinese threat. And I don’t think we will anytime soon. As a nation we are addicted to the conveniences of capitalism. Freedom is another insidious opiate to the masses.
That is not to say that freedom is bad. Rather it is so damned good and such a blessing that we cannot imagine life without it. I would die sooner of servitude than of asphyxiation.
It’s like we get so damned comfortable and set in our ways that they seem unshakable. If we don’t prepare for the long-term Chinese threat, we will be sorry.
The Race Card on April 13, 2008 at 4:37 PM
Vntnrse:
I was not making a comment about the specifics of this thread, but was merely turning the situation around. Anyone who brings up a suggestion about Usrael doing anything similar is immediately branded a “retard”. I have yet to meet anyone who believes the government version of 9/11 who as actually researched the issue. As soon as you ask them questions, they ignore you and call you a retard. I turned it around and played the Chinese government apologist who doesn’t say a word about the issue but simply calls the people who believes the story names.
As for what I think of the issue, I am not too impressed by a photo of the Chinese army with monk robes. Besides the other issues already addressed, I doubt if they would parade around with the robes in public if they were being used for the purposes described.
As for the agent provocateur, it definitely looks like that’s what is happening in this case. Of course, because you find one agent does not mean all the violence is due to Chinese agents. This is another technique used by apologists. (If you can find one soldier who lied about an event in Iraq, that means all negative stories told by soldiers about Iraq are lies). All governments do this type of thing. Not just “evil” ones.
dave742 on April 13, 2008 at 4:42 PM
The whole won’t understand it until they dump our dollars, move with the Iranians and Venezualans, and block our access to the Panama Canal. Not going to happen yet, their economy and military aren’t there yet. But it will…
bikermailman on April 13, 2008 at 4:55 PM
Still, the Tibetan issue should not be part of the Olympics, and it is not China who has made it the issue.
Really?
Were the Tibetens the ones who massacred dozens of individuals and arrested hundreds of people in a country they’ve been illegally occupying for the past five decades?
Gerard on April 13, 2008 at 5:22 PM
I’m just curious– How do we KNOW that this is the case???
And that THIS is not what we are seeing in the picture??
just wonderin’ how we are sure, exactly??
Ex-tex on April 13, 2008 at 5:34 PM
I don’t disagree with you here and I’m not saying that photos don’t lie in the age of photoshop. Nor do I think that all of the violence is the fault of the Chinese, but in my opinion (as a nurse, not as a photoshop expert) the original photo looks too much like a collusive incident for me to be comfortable believing that of ALL of the violence happening there, that some is not staged, either. It would be too convenient and I wouldn’t put it past ANY government not to take advantage of a situation like this. That’s all I’m saying.
Vntnrse on April 13, 2008 at 6:13 PM
Vntnrse:
I agree.
Romeo13:
I never thought the war had anything to do with oil. The war is for Israel. Israel needs to break up any strong states in the region so it can proceed with its expansion. OBL brought this up 10 years ago, and now we are hearing more and more about the partioning of Iraq into 3 smaller states. I guess it was a lucky guess.
dave742 on April 13, 2008 at 6:22 PM
It is starting to look like it was photoshopped to me. Add red to the big flag…and, that girl up front sure looks out of place, if not, then that red flag she has could be photoshopped.
Seaberry on April 13, 2008 at 6:25 PM
Ed,
I hate to say it but I think Dafydd might have this one wrong. I don’t speak or read any Chinese but I can see that in the background of that shot there are two people with large Tibetan flags draped around their backs. So I’m not sure how that would qualify as a pro-China group.
I’ve highlighted them here.
John on April 13, 2008 at 7:53 PM
So, its your contention that we invaded Iraq to help ISRAEL?
Are you dense? Saddam was in standoff mode against his neighbors, including Iran (who calls for the destruction of Israel).
Why would Israel want to take a weak secular state, and have us invade it? When the real threat to Israel is coming from Syria and Iran? You know, the guys who arm Hezbollah?
Romeo13 on April 13, 2008 at 9:29 PM
Shaky. Shaky evidence (a photo used from an unrelated event used as evidence), shaky source (an anti-communist activist who lives in Japan–Mr. Ching), and shaky reporting (This could be a photo, this guy could be a Chinese agent, etc.) Lots of shaky stuff with this post.
Have conservatives become as dense, close-minded, and “seeing only what we want to see” as the lefties? This is beneath us.
p40tiger on April 13, 2008 at 10:14 PM
It’s “dave” logic. Comparatively blond logic is more intelligent and rational.
To answer your question, dense would be a step up. Yet dave continues to make moronic comments then complains when he is called a moron.
Note to dave, when you are a propaganda tool for terrorists and dictators do not act surprised when you are labeled a retard.
jdkchem on April 14, 2008 at 1:45 AM
Romeo:
It is true that Israel wanted Iran to be first for their US puppet military to attack, but for several reasons Iraq was going to be a quick stepping stone to that. Iraq turned out to be more than a stepping stone, but the true goal of Iran is certainly on the list. All this is very clear, even to the centrist “morons”/Univerity of Chicago professors Mearsheimer and Walt (I know, they are anti-Semites). More and more people are starting to see this reality, but there will always be extremists who will never be able to.
The Israeli expansion into Lebanon would supposedly start soon after Iran, but I doubt it will get that far. The US will implode after the Iran invasion, and Israel soon after.
dave742 on April 14, 2008 at 10:34 AM
Things to boycott:
1. Olympics Check
2. Miller Beer Check
3. Absolut Check
4. Landry’s Restaurants Check
4. CBS Check
6. MSNBC Check
anything else?
TheSitRep on April 14, 2008 at 4:38 PM
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