1. The questions I asked, though they arise out of recent events in Africa, are not only about Africa. We see the same thing happen when people try to stand up for democracy in Tibet, Myanmar/Burma and the list goes on. In the end, people who have tried to stand up are made to sit down, and those who try to steal the democracy continue in power.

2. Events belie your your assertion that people are too tired to defend their democracy. Granted I wasn’t there, but unless every news channel was making it up, Kenyans went into the street to defend the democracy that they had thought they had solidified in the last elections. And if Zimbabweans too decide they want to defend their democracy, then it is arrogant and paternalistic to tell them they should not.

Don’t worry, we don’t need white people like you helping to fix our problems

Chudi on April 10, 2008 at 12:17 AM

I’m sorry, Chudi, but when you made that statement you just threw away any credibility you had.

I would think, Chudi, that rather than bashing us for talking about Zimbabwe, you would appreciate us talking about it. America has been criticized for so long for not caring about Africa. Well, this group of Americans does. And what do we get? “Don’t worry, we don’t need white people like you helping to fix our problems”

We talk about Zimbabwe in part because it was a fairly prosperous nation, and Mugabe destroyed it. And he is propped up in part by his fellow dictators in Africa. Far from “fixing your problems,” countries like South Africa under Thabo Mbeki and groups like SADC will likely help perpetuate it, as they have done in the past, by propping up Mugabe and allowing him to continue to murder his own people and drive the country further into ruin.

We are not the problem. Mugabe is the problem. We are doing what we can to publicize Mugabe’s despicable acts to get him removed from power. For some reason, for someone who allegedly cares about Africa so much, removing this thug does not seem to be high on your list of priorities.

You guys need to cool it. Elections are cancelled or stolen in many countries around the world all the time, I don’t see why zimbabwe should be a special case unless you guys would prefer to see a war in another African country.

Chudi on April 9, 2008 at 7:30 PM

The point is that we want to see democracy in all countries possible, and Zimbabwe is one of those. No one should tolerate stolen elections, martial law, and starvation anywhere. Zimbabwe is but one of several countries discussed here, where leftist ideas carried out have proven to become totalitarian states. Note the discussions on Venezuela just last week. We discuss Zimbabwe now, because it is the latest failed socialist state – and there is a chance for them to escape it, now that Mugabe has lost his latest election, despite all his attempts to thwart democracy.

I don’t need to have lived in Africa, studied Africa, or travelled in Africa to know that Mugabe is an old-style despot.

President for life, if you will. And yes, there will be blood. All that needs deciding is how much.

Perhaps someone will remind him that he’s only President for life…

I assume you didn’t have a problem with the hate-filled vile in the post above mine.

ooh.

The only thing that has moved fast is the absolute destruction by black bigots of great civilized infrastructures in countries like Kenya, Uganda, South Africa, Rhodesia and on and on

Based on the above statement, i don’t think I’m the close mind person. Don’t worry, we don’t need white people like you helping to fix our problems, which goes back to my original question…why is there a post here everyday bashing Zimbabwe and the SADC, with morons like you moralizing on your high and mighty throne.

You have to understand the continent fundamentally before you start moralizing about issues. I’m still wondering why you guys are so interested in Zimbabwe out of all the places in Africa with issues like this.Chudi

As was pointed out, the liberals and left forced SA & Rhodesia to go back to Africa “in the good old days.” Well with all our modern communications we see how the good old days are and were. Black killing blacks, racial/tribal hatred rekindled and mass graves all over (your misunderstood continent). Rwanda still reeks from the almost million killed, not by white moralists but by black people with the vilest of racial animosity. Now, that country was “mean” quoting MS Obama. Yes, Chudi, things do move slow on that continent (progress, governability, racial accord,etc). The only thing that has moved fast is the absolute destruction by black bigots of great civilized infrastructures in countries like Kenya, Uganda, South Africa, Rhodesia and on and on. You chill out you closed mind dummy.

‘THAT IS WHAT AFRICA IS ABOUT’..That statement is exactly the problem with people like you and your ilk. Africa doesn’t need the paternalism that you ‘smart’ people like you.

I just wonder why this site is full of Zimbabwe bashing stories everyday, when Africa is a useless continent. How moronic.

I bet you don’t know what the hell you are talking about. You have been studying the continent structure…what does that mean. I was born in Africa, I grew up in Africa. I still have half of my family living there. I go back there often, do don’t tell me you have been studying the ‘continent structure and the cause of rescuing innocent victims’. That’s BS.

Jill,

The conditions you described are exactly the conditions that have led to war in other places. That the people are starving doesn’t mean they can’t fight a war, infact it’s these disgruntled people who warlords tend to recruit, give them guns and a little money and they go on rampage. Do you know about Liberia or Sierra Leone. None of these countries had any money…but had very long civil wars. In Congo right now, they have been fighting for more than I can remember…but nobody pays attention to it. The situation in Zimbabwe is very critical and trust me, it can explode at any moment.

Blaise,

Did you just ask…’is democracy not worth fighting for and dying for?’

In most African countries, the answer is NO. Africa has seen enough war and human suffering. We don’t need anymore. It is convenient to sit at home and ask those questions…but the answer is NO. Mugabe is pretty old, and he will probably die soon. I think most people in Zimbabwe and southern Africa would take the alternative to wait him out than to have a civil war. It’s not worth it. During the Liberian and Sierra Leonean wars, ECOMOG which is the west african economic union had to send thousands of soldiers to help the fight. Thousands were killed. The whole region was destabilized with millions of refugees all the over the area.

Africa has seen enough war, and I think that every action of the SADC in this crisis is being taken to prevent the outbreak of war.

I suggest you go study the continent before you start making snide remarks. I lived in Africa for 18yrs…I know what I’m talking about.

Been studying the continent structure for longer than you have been living there and working on the cause of rescuing the innocent victims of the the warlord dictators; so watch your snide remarks….

Chudi: This doesn’t make sense to me. Exactly how is a war going to break out in Zimbabwe? If Mugabe and his ruling ZANU-PF elite decide they can ride it out because the neighbors aren’t really pressuring them they can just declare martial law. The ordinary citizens that voted Mugabe out are starving and have no real means of resistance. You don’t get a civil war unless there’s another side able to fight. Do you see any signs that the armed forces under Mugabe’s control are likely to split?

Jill

Now we see another stolen election, with all the mechanisms of the state being readied to suppress any protest. I am fairly certain that we will see Zimbabweans in the street rioting to stop the theft of their election, if Mugabe maintains his grip on power. this will lead to the SADC and probably, once again, Anna on the scene to negotiate a “solution”.

And so, I am left with the following questions.

1. Why must we intervene to prevent people from fighting for democracy, or to save their existing democracy?

2. Why must democrats compromise with those who seek to steal their democracy?

3. Of what value is negotiation when one party’s only interest is conquest?

4. Is democracy not worth fighting for? Maybe dying for?

5. If democracy is not worth fighting/dying for is this not an implicit admission that, under sufficient pressure, always concede power to those willing to murder us?

Just asking.

Have you asked yourselves why there doesn’t seem to be a sense of urgency about the issue of the results…it’s par for the course. In Nigeria in 1993, the govt cancelled a whole election, after announcing the results cus they didn’t like the winner. The army basically took over within a few weeks. These things happen in Africa, and it’s pretty common.

Let the SADC handle it at their own pace. They will figure it out. They will put enough pressure on ZANU PF to do the right thing. The hardball tactics that you guys are proposing will lead to a very bad outcome, most likely war. This will probably destabilize the whole region, which directly affects the members of the SADC…or do you think you guys here, care more about the people of Zimbabwe than they do.

You guys need to cool it. Elections are cancelled or stolen in many countries around the world all the time, I don’t see why zimbabwe should be a special case unless you guys would prefer to see a war in another African country.

How come all the freedom loving, save africa hollyweirdos aren’t screaming for the US to step in and defend the integrity of the election process in zimbabwe?

Oh yea, because mugabe hates the US and so do hollyweirdos.

peacenprosperity on April 9, 2008 at 5:31 PM

Isn’t it Carter and his fellow travelers who “monitor” these things. Oh yeah, I forgot. It was Carter who inflicted Mugabe on Zimbabwe in the first place. And you probably thought he only gave the world the Ayatollah Khomeini. Nope, Carter is responsible for this second misery. Read on:

Carter’s Role in Zimbabwe

That Mugabe’s failures have taken this long to get any attention in the West is a measure of how fake, or perhaps selective, our great humanitarians are when it comes to outrage and being true to their ideals. Obama(s) sound a lot more like Mugabe than they do MLK.

South Africa just adopted a land seizure program like Mugabe’s. They might do some things differently to avoid catastrophe, but it is the same old manure, to be allocated the same old ways.

Birds of a feather do flock together, and petty tyrants, present and future, are careful not to embarass their fellow travelers. The sheep they rule might awaken…

Can you cut it out. I think you guys need to chill on this bashing.

NO!

Your points are correct, as far as they go. The larger picture is the change in prosperity in Zimbabwe under the latest in Mugabe’s policies.

The direct result of Mugabe’s government action is to ruin an entire nation.
There is now less food, no future for the majority, population diaspora, and widespread poverty. It’s Mugabe’s fault.

Robert

You have to understand the continent fundamentally before you start moralizing about issues.

You’re Not the World, Bono Breath.

Yes, Mugabe has done some bad things [Nice patronizing and moral equivalence, Chudi], but that is par for the course in Africa[wow, it must very exhausting being so arrogant and ignorant at the same time] ….Chudi on April 9, 2008 at 5:34 PM

Emphasis mine.

peacenprosperity on April 9, 2008 at 5:31 PM

That’s a good point.

samuelrylander on April 9, 2008 at 5:35 PM

Ditto!

That’s a good point.

Can you cut it out. The SADC are doing everything they can to resolve the issue in Zimbabwe, and they don’t need people disparaging them for it.

I think you guys need to chill on this bashing. Yes, Mugabe has done some bad things, but that is par for the course in Africa. You have to understand the continent fundamentally before you start moralizing about issues. I’m still wondering why you guys are so interested in Zimbabwe out of all the places in Africa with issues like this.