Maliki: On second thought, let’s lay off the Mahdi Army for awhile
posted at 8:50 pm on April 4, 2008 by Allahpundit
He vowed a few days ago to crack heads in Baghdad. Today he’s un-vowing. Austin Bay would say it’s all part of the process, forever oscillating between posturing, negotiation, and spurts of open conflict. The media says … otherwise. From the AP link:
A statement by al-Maliki’s office, broadcast on government television, did not mention the Mahdi Army by name or give a timeframe for the freeze. It said the move was designed to give a “chance to those who repented and want to lay down their arms.”…
“It is not possible to look for only a military solution. There must be a political solution and that’s why the prime minister issued today’s statement,” a top al-Maliki adviser, Sadiq al-Rikabi, told The Associated Press.
“We must have calm. Many politicians advised al-Maliki against confrontation, warning him that clashes benefited other parties,” al-Rikabi said without elaborating…
A member of al-Sadr’s 30-member bloc in parliament, Hassan al-Rubaie, told the AP that the decision to freeze arrests was made during talks Thursday between Sadrist representatives and al-Maliki aides.
Al-Rubaie said the freeze applied even in cases where an arrest warrant had been issued. He said negotiations were under way on other Sadrist demands, including the release of al-Sadr’s followers detained without charge, reinstating soldiers and police who deserted during last week’s fighting and the lifting of the siege of Sadr City and another Shiite neighborhood.
“Other parties” in Iraq-speak almost always means Iran, but the Iranians were the ones who allegedly leaned on Sadr to call a ceasefire in the first place. So why’d Maliki back off? Ryan Crocker told reporters yesterday that he was “not coming back [to Baghdad from Basra] in any kind of triumphal spirit,” which does indeed suggest a cave-in. But did he bow to pressure from the Sadrists — or from the U.S.?
The senior U.S. military officer expressed relief that Maliki had taken a pause today after making his previous bellicose comments.
“Iraqis need to figure out a way to deal with it [the militia problem], which means going in more slowly,” he said…
Echoing comments by other Western officials, the U.S. military official expressed frustration over Maliki’s apparently contradictory statements. “You can believe what he’s saying now. You just don’t know how long it’ll last,” he said, faulting the prime minister’s advisors.
Petraeus is probably worried about a fiasco if the IA tries another hamfisted operation in Baghdad so soon before he has to testify before Congress, so maybe the heat on Maliki is coming from our side. By one Iraqi official’s estimate, more than a thousand IA/IP members deserted during the Basra assault; if they send Shiite troops into Sadr City, god only knows what will happen. Which means the U.S. troops who are out in the field in that neighborhood, waiting for the Iraqis to stop drinking tea back at the base and come out to relieve them, may be waiting a good while longer.
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just nailing down the main rat nest locations in Sadr City.. a little recon.. push is about to become shove.. or cave would have been most apt.
normsrevenge on April 4, 2008 at 8:54 PM
Why can’t we send Team Hillary into Iran, dodging sniper fire the whole way, to grab that fat schmuck Sadr and drag him back to the Green Zone on his blubbery imam ass?
Cicero43 on April 4, 2008 at 9:00 PM
what great allies we have in this world
Defector01 on April 4, 2008 at 9:10 PM
In regards to Shiite power struggles, we should only concern ourselves with the Iranian hand, if it is found anywhere, regardless of intent, it needs to be amputated! Let the Iraqis wrestle with themselves in forging their new won/found representative government. Any and all influence, interference and intervention by the Iranians needs to be confronted and crushed without mercy.
dmann on April 4, 2008 at 9:12 PM
So did the surge work? I’m confused.
freevillage on April 4, 2008 at 9:27 PM
Give this man Janet Reno’s play book on Waco style government intervention.
BowHuntingTexas on April 4, 2008 at 9:28 PM
I think all the players in Iraq and in the U.S. are having one thing in the back of their mind: Lebanon.
And I mean: Civil War.
All parties involved want to avoid an all out bloody civil war.
That’s why things are going slowly and they should.
The pace of life in the Arab World is not like in America.
Arabian Politics is much more complicated. It is slower.
The Arabs are more sensitive and more religious.
Religion and politics are mixed in Islam, they are inseparable.
To compromise in the case of Iraq that has a diverse population -unlike any other Arab nation- one has to take things slowly and carefully.
Civil war in Iraq is and always will be a hairbreadth away from being ignited, even during peace time.
Any American involved in negotiations with the Arabs should know these basic facts.
Indy Conservative on April 4, 2008 at 9:40 PM
Perfect!
dmann on April 4, 2008 at 9:59 PM
A sign of weakness. That’s not good in that area.
TooTall on April 4, 2008 at 10:14 PM
Don’t worry, the whole thing was probably just one of those “Strategic withdrawals to the rear” tricks on Maliki’s part to lure Sadr into a false sense of security.
MB4 on April 4, 2008 at 10:21 PM
Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.
- Lord Palmerston
MB4 on April 4, 2008 at 10:24 PM
Don’t be silly. Of course The Surge worked. It’s like Global Warming. No matter what happens just more proof of it’s validity.
MB4 on April 4, 2008 at 10:29 PM
The Surge is still ongoing. Is it working? I don’t know, let’s ask Petraeus next week.
CliffHanger on April 4, 2008 at 11:05 PM
This operation is going to go on for weeks. Just everybody chill for a bit.
crosspatch on April 4, 2008 at 11:09 PM
Trusting Muslims? Good idea? This time will be different?
BL@KBIRD on April 4, 2008 at 11:11 PM
Let’s be real here folks. Maliki and the Iraqi government was nothing more than an Iranian patsy uinder the guise of a “free election”.
I hate terrorists and al-qaeda, but the US must acknowledge the truth:
Any and every Islamist country will NEVER be an ally of the US.
The ideologies are diametrically opposed.
Islam demands our demise.
That is not particularly a concept that I would prescribe to.
Anyone?
awake on April 4, 2008 at 11:19 PM
MB4 you’re a divider not a provider…!
My thought would be you require considerable PTSS counseling?
J_Gocht on April 4, 2008 at 11:44 PM
Hey “Joker” I’m signed up for next week!
After 46 years soldier…!
do you think [6] hours or therephy will erase the pain?
H&K’s
That’s Heckler and Kochs…!
J_Gocht on April 4, 2008 at 11:54 PM
My nature is to cause stress, not to have it myself.
MB4 on April 4, 2008 at 11:56 PM
Don’t forget to put cigarette filters in your ears.
MB4 on April 5, 2008 at 12:00 AM
Damn…when I came out?
I was so paranoid… when I landed In San Francisco in the good olde US of A …I blocked the door knob on the hotel room on the 10th floor …with the goddamn back of a chair.
Is that weird or what?
I had terrible times man… just the shits!
J_Gocht on April 5, 2008 at 12:00 AM
Don’t worry about it, some troops just took a while to readjust to the World.
MB4 on April 5, 2008 at 12:05 AM
Xin loi.
MB4 on April 5, 2008 at 12:10 AM
I’m betting on the strong horse. What does he look like?
a capella on April 5, 2008 at 12:14 AM
“Doe!!”—-Homer Maliki Simpson
Dollayo on April 5, 2008 at 12:19 AM
Since those most traumatic years in Vietnam from 1962 to 1966 I’ve been blessed!
The most wonderful person came into my life into the form of my very dear wife!
Without her thoughts, cajoling and wisdom…. I, MB4 would be your veritable “basket case”!
You Sir!
Should be so…Lucky!
Just in case you haven’t served on the hot end of an AK-47
J_Gocht on April 5, 2008 at 12:24 AM
1193.
MB4 on April 5, 2008 at 12:27 AM
freevillage on April 4, 2008 at 9:27 PM
Is that a permanent situation.
Johan Klaus on April 5, 2008 at 12:57 AM
November ,1983…?
Glynis said she didn’t want in on this…!
So dumbe says…
Send mail…!
Who are you?
MB4…?
Name
Rank
Serial #
….
J_Gocht on April 5, 2008 at 1:04 AM
1193.
MB4 on April 5, 2008 at 12:27 AM
From one to ten say what?
J_Gocht on April 5, 2008 at 1:19 AM
Tommy knows.
MB4 on April 5, 2008 at 1:26 AM
1193.
Did Glynis send your “sorry butt” these numbers’…
1193
1193
1193…!
Ok
Ok
You dah babe!
Helll!
Damnnn!
J_Gocht on April 5, 2008 at 1:26 AM
This place never ceases to amaze me…
LT Nixon on April 5, 2008 at 4:02 AM
I would say they have laid down for Petraeus.
tarpon on April 5, 2008 at 8:37 AM
This is therapy soldier.
Choi Oui…
Don’t screw with Petraeus…he knows his ass is grass and al-Sadr is the lawn mower!
J_Gocht on April 5, 2008 at 8:55 AM
It would have been more accurate to say “most” rather than “every”. Kuwait is a staunch ally. American’s are welcomed by the Kuwait population. Their buses are rolling billboards celebrating the liberation of Kuwait from Iraq. Pictures showing Kuwait citizens hugging U.S. servicemembers are still on the buses. We have live fire ranges and desert training facilities in Kuwait. Kuwait citizens and government remember that no one lifted a finger to help them get their country back until the U.S. decided to make it happen. But your overall point is valid, making alliances with Islamic states is akin to pushing a boulder up a hill with a Q-Tip.
Switching gears to another point made by Ed. Only 1,000 Iraqi troops refused to fight? That’s an improvement. Anyone who served in Desert Storm knows that our Islamic “ally’s” during that war steadfastly refused to advance ahead of U.S. forces and put themselves in harm’s way. The mere fact that every Iraqi soldier didn’t refuse to fight in Basra is impressive. Comparing the Iraqi military on anything to the U.S. military is like comparing a kid playing the pitchers mound in a T-Ball game to Roger Clemens.
Hog Wild on April 5, 2008 at 10:01 AM
make that AllahP.
Hog Wild on April 5, 2008 at 10:03 AM
Give things time. Counter insurgency is not fast nor is it vacillating. It is slow but steady. Let’s clean up Mosul first. Then we can move Iraqi and US efforts south to Basra. First we establish forward posts that discourage criminal activity and encourage tips in neighborhoods and set up local concerned citizens groups where practical. Then we crack down on the bad guys that do not move out. Clear with the point of the spear guys, hold with Iraqi Army and police and Build while the point of the spear guys move on to the next neighborhood. By the local elections in October, we should have enough control to hold free elections even in Basra and Sadr city.
I imagine that is the kind of advice Petraeus gave Maliki.
KW64 on April 5, 2008 at 10:50 AM
This is an interesting evaluation of Basra that a lot of people seem to think is proof of failure in Iraq.
The Basra Model
THE WORLD FROM WASHINGTON
Michael Hirsh
April 3,2008
http://www.newsweek.com/id/130347
The outcome of the Battle of Basra is still unclear. But as things stabilize in that critical city—the southern gateway to Iraq’s oil wealth—Basra may well turn out to be Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki’s Kasserine Pass. That notorious battle, which took place in Tunisia in late February 1943, marked the first large-scale encounter between untested American troops and the battle-hardened Germans. The Americans, to put it mildly, did not do well. But they quickly fired incompetent commanders, adjusted in tactics, and never lost another major battle. In Basra the nascent Iraqi Army—also riddled with incompetence and self-doubt—actually came out looking better against Iraq’s well-established militias than the American Army had 65 years earlier against the entrenched Nazis, says retired Army Gen. Barry McCaffrey. “At Kasserine we got our asses kicked. These people didn’t,” McCaffrey says.
All I hear from liberals is that there is not a military
solution in Iraq,so Maliki is working the political angle also and people are still yelling failure.
No body with any sense has ever said that Iraq was supposed to look like Oklahoma for it to be considered a victory.
There are rarely any all out victories in the muslim
world.Iran,Saudi Arabia,Egypt,Pakistan….all have different
religious and tribal factions that are kept in check by a
strong military from a central governmental power.
One sect stays in power until there is a change in leadership or war that changes this balance.
The Iraqis are going through that and have accomplished a lot in a short period of time considering the horrific state of this country while Saddam ruled.
If killing Sadr during this war would have solved the sectarian problems in Iraq,we would and could have done that.
Our military leaders on the ground and influential people
like Sistani have told us it would make things worse.
If it is determined later that Sadr has to go,it needs to
be done by Iraqis and after Iraq has a military strong enough to maintain control of the country,not before,which will likely institute civil war.
Sadr/Iran goal is to drive the US out of Iraq before the
central government is strong enough to enforce rule of law.
The cut and run ranting from democrats and other defeatist
will ensure that Sadr/Iran accomplish this with Al-qaeda rebuilding to fight them with the sunni.
The fact that Maliki is standing up to the militias and
working toward a government that has representation by shia,sunni,and kurds is a positive,the fact that this mission was carried out in such a haphazard manner shows that more work needs to be done to strengthen and organize
the military and governmental support.
Something bailing out of Iraq like Obama and Clinton want
to do won’t accomplish.
Baxter Greene on April 5, 2008 at 11:53 AM
KW64, you know where you can put the point of that spear? Where the sun don’t shine!
Do you read the news? 1000 plus on “the point of the spear” deserted in Basra! I know, I know we gotta give them more time… five gosh damn years isn’t enough!
It’ll be a “cold day in Hell” when my dear grandchildren have to fight your f’ing despicable war in Iraq!
So you, the Bush boy and the good General can take a long damn walk on a very short pier!
Hope you can swim…maybe not!
You too Baxter!
J_Gocht on April 5, 2008 at 12:06 PM
It isn’t normally in my nature to go off like the above.
There is one issue that can turn my sugar into s[manure]t and that’s the gosh damn despicable War in Iraq! What an f’ing waste of blood and treasure!
J_Gocht on April 5, 2008 at 12:21 PM
So did the surge work? I’m confused.
freevillage on April 4, 2008 at 9:27 PM
No,All the progress in Iraq over the last year has been
because of idiots like you who have been yelling surrender.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/130347
Report: Security in Iraq is improving
By PAMELA HESS, Associated Press Writer Fri Apr 4, 12:28 AM ET
WASHINGTON – A new classified intelligence assessment on Iraq says there has been significant progress in security since the last assessment was delivered in August, a senior military official said.
And here is some of the political progress that super
intellectuals like yourself can’t seem to see through the
Berkeley bubble you live in:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2008/03/20080319-2.html
Political Progress Is Taking Place In Iraq
Millions of Iraqis have risked their lives to secure a democratic future for their nation, and America will not abandon them in their time of need. The vast majority of Iraq’s citizens want to live in peace, and they are showing their courage every day.
In October 2005, Iraqi voters approved a new permanent constitution.
In December 2005, nearly 12 million Iraqis braved car bombers and assassins to choose a permanent government in free elections under the new constitution.
On February 3, 2008, Iraq’s Presidency Council issued the Accountability and Justice Law, which will allow thousands of former Ba’athists to return to government jobs.
On February 13, 2008, the Council of Representatives passed two key pieces of legislation.
Amnesty Law:
The Government of Iraq’s General Amnesty Law represents a benchmark in facilitating political reconciliation and the rule of law in Iraq. The General Amnesty Law addresses the scope of eligibility for amnesty for Iraqis in Iraqi detention facilities, whether they have been brought to trial or not. The law exempts from this amnesty those who have committed specific serious crimes, such as premeditated murder or kidnapping, and those who are subject to the death penalty.
Fiscal Budget:
The $48 billion Iraqi budget represents a 17 percent increase in spending over last year’s budget, with a 23 percent increase in security expenditures. Capital funds allocated to the 15 provinces will increase over 50 percent, from $2.1 billion to $3.3 billion, reflecting the improved budget execution performance by provinces in 2007.
The Iraqi government passed a pension law in late 2007.
The central government of Iraq continues to distribute oil revenue to provinces, even though the proposed oil law is still being negotiated.
The central government of Iraq reached its 2007 target of $30.2 billion in budget revenue one month before the end of the year.
The Government of Iraq recently completed early repayment of its outstanding obligations to the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and reached a new Stand-By Arrangement with the IMF.
Iraq’s presidential council signed off Wednesday on a measure paving the way for provincial elections by the fall, a major step toward easing sectarian rifts as the nation marks the fifth anniversary of the war.
March 19,2008
I wish liberals would hold the same high standards they
have for success in Iraq to the cities that they control
like,New York,Detroit,Los Angeles,Cleveland,and Washington
DC.
Gangs like the bloods and MS13 are running around at will, armed, and committing rape,robbery,and murder.When will they be disarmed?
The state run schools are a mess with incredibly high drop
out rates and crime.
Drug use and the money made from it is rampant.
Democratic leadership is involved in the same crimes that
they prosecute people for such as prostitution,money laundering,lying to the feds and illegal campaign money being taken from Obama,to Clinton on down.
A Democratic congress that sits at around 19% approval and
has accomplished little to nothing except endless subpoenas
and bogus investigations.
What happened to the 100 hours Pelosi.
How is that impeachment going idiots.
With this type of failure when are the liberals going to
yell for withdrawal from the US.
America has had hundreds of years to clean up this and
much more in this country and the liberals are going around
yelling “hope” and “change”.
Iraq has had about 5 years to get on it’s feet and all the
liberals can yell is “surrender” and “it’s not worth it,it
costs to much”.
liberals,always looking out for the “little people” as long as they fit their agenda.
Baxter Greene on April 5, 2008 at 12:29 PM
Is there any reason he didn’t put his name in ink?
Do you find it just a little “too convenient” that all these “good news reports” from Iraq are blossoming forth in the compliant media; just days before we will again have to “suspend our disbelief” when the good General wows us with his fabulous Power Point graphics!
Why is it that, the NIE wasn’t fully released? Classified eh!
What was that little excursion into Basra last week…a walk in the park?
“You’re not in Kansas anymore, Dorothy”
J_Gocht on April 5, 2008 at 12:53 PM
Do you read the news? 1000 plus on “the point of the spear” deserted in Basra! I know, I know we gotta give them more time… five gosh damn years isn’t enough!
It’ll be a “cold day in Hell” when my dear grandchildren have to fight your f’ing despicable war in Iraq!
So you, the Bush boy and the good General can take a long damn walk on a very short pier!
Hope you can swim…maybe not!
If you didn’t have your head shoved so far up Rosie Odonnell’s A$$,you would know that the case for Iraq was made long before Bush became President and Democrats and
Republicans voted for this war.
And don’t try the “Bush lied” crap because you will get
smacked down like the idiot you are with the 9/11 commission report,2003 Senate intelligence report,Butler report,and the
fact that liberal heroes like Pelosi and Reid stated first thing when they took control of congress that”impeachment was off the table.”
Yeah that Bush is some war criminal.
You are complaining that 1000 people deserted the Iraqi army and police during Basra fighting,are you kidding me?
hundreds of thousands of soldiers and police and you think that 1000 deserting in this new of an army is some type of failure.
The US had thousands AWOL in WWII and WWI and we found a
way to win.This happens in every army in every country.This
small amount is only a sign of failure to the press and idiots like you.
We have a volunteer army Gocht,if your family doesn’t want to join,so be it.
All I have ever seen a Soldier ask for is support for them and their mission,something you are apparently incapable of.
Please know that your defeatist rants are not new and about as idiotic as the ones in past wars:
War Unwinnable In Face Of Renewed German Offensive
December 17th, 1944 http://www.transterrestrial.com/archives/004711.html
PARIS (Routers) Long-time critics of the Roosevelt administration declared themselves vindicated today, as the Germans began a renewed offensive yesterday in the Ardennes Forest in Belgium, opening a huge hole in the “Allied” lines and throwing back troops for miles, with previously unimaginable US casualties.
War Critics Decry Interminable And Unwinnable Conflict
http://www.transterrestrial.com/archives/2008/03/war_critics_dec.html
January 15th, 1945
WASHINGTON (Routers) With the “Allied” forces continuing to be bogged down in the Ardennes Forest, many are questioning Roosevelt administration war policies, the unreasonable length of the war, and even whether or not it can be won.
If you don’t see the importance by now of stability in the
mid-east,prevention of a nuclear weapon being obtained there, and a push for Freedom everywhere, then go back to your Sheehan/hollywood wonderland and think that everything
is Bush’s fault,that will get you real far idiot.
Baxter Greene on April 5, 2008 at 1:10 PM
“You’re not in Kansas anymore, Dorothy”
Name calling and smart a$$ comments are not substitutes for facts in the real world.
Do you have facts that contradict Gen. Petraeus,Senators and Congressmen who have been there and about every publication and news show who has had to be dragged to their computers to report that the surge has been successful militarily and politically.
You jumping up and down in the middle of your room with your hands over your ears yelling “the war is lost!the war is lost!” only works with the Bill Mahar crowd.
If Gen. Petraeus is lying,then prove it idiot.
Baxter Greene on April 5, 2008 at 1:18 PM
Have you ever been a soldier?
MB4 on April 5, 2008 at 1:19 PM
Baxter, baby…they gave me eight weeks of basic, twelve weeks of AI and eighteen months of airborne and SF training and sent my boney arse to Vietnam for four more years of training others.
Training and fighting with others. Not being “potty trained” for five years.
I might say five years of holding hands is more than sufficient “gettin’ to know yah” time for training anyone; even for your own self Baxter!
I agree totally it’s absolutely not worth it.
Yes and its costing way too much in blood and treasure!
Next question…
J_Gocht on April 5, 2008 at 1:20 PM
Then why, pray tell, have you made profuse name calling your PMOS?
MB4 on April 5, 2008 at 1:25 PM
I agree totally it’s absolutely not worth it.
Yes and its costing way too much in blood and treasure!
Next question…
You havn’t answered any questions yet Gocht,and I know many
vets WWII/Vietnam/Korea/Iraq/Afghanistan that don’t agree with your cut and run Bull%hit.
Your history lesson and opinion have not proven in any way
shape or form that Gen. Petraeus is lying or that the progress as a result from the surge is not real.
Put up or shut up!!!
Baxter Greene on April 5, 2008 at 1:30 PM
Then why, pray tell, have you made profuse name calling your PMOS?
MB4 on April 5, 2008 at 1:25 PM
Look at the post MB4,I did not start with the name calling
but I can sure do it too.I have not substituted it for facts
either.
Unless your one of those that can call our President a “War Monger”,”War Criminal”,”a liar”,”Murderer”,compare him to Hitler and a monkey but have a stroke if someone says Obama’s full name than I assume if you dish it out, you can
take it.
Baxter Greene on April 5, 2008 at 1:35 PM
Senators, who have been there recently…?
If I recall correctly Senator McCain could not visit the market place he toured last year with a company of Marines, Humvees and three circling gunships.
The neighborhood was too dangerous this year?
J_Gocht on April 5, 2008 at 1:47 PM
Gosh, my apologies Baxter. I didn’t think you’d take offense at “Dorothy”?
J_Gocht on April 5, 2008 at 1:52 PM
Have you ever been a soldier?
Here comes the chickenhawk crap that doesn’t seem to come
up when Bill Clinton was ordering people to war or the fact
that Hillary and Obama will be in the same position to do so.
Do you support the police,firemen,or our teachers?
Are you in any of these job fields?
Have you ever been the President of the United States?
If not,then by your logic,you have no right to comment on
them right.
There are over 298,500,000 people not enlisted in the military in this country,so I guess you are going to tell
all of us that we have no right to express a viewpoint on
war.
Considering how high our re-enlistment rates are and the fact our arm forces are meeting most recruitment goals,I would say they don’t agree with a cut and run attitude either.
And considering the Soldiers/Vets that I have marched with
in Washington many times have expressed their gratitude for
the support of them and their mission,I don’t think the fact
that I haven’t served proves in any way that Gen. Petraeus
and the other military on the ground are liars.
I am going to move on since the only response to proving all your allegations is”but look over there!”.
Have fun with your pathetic war against Bush,it has accomplished so much so far.
Baxter Greene on April 5, 2008 at 1:53 PM
“Primary Military Occupational Specialty” I think that’s what got him peode?
Have a great weekend!
J_Gocht on April 5, 2008 at 2:14 PM
Wow!
I just noticed Baxter Greene is conceding the Presidential election to the Democrats!
We can go back to Kansas now! Can’t we?
J_Gocht on April 5, 2008 at 2:26 PM
Here comes the paranoid victim crap.
MB4 on April 5, 2008 at 3:09 PM
So let me see if I have this straight now as it all seems so wild.
Gocht was Special Forces in RVN and you “know many vets” and you talk about “his” “cut and run Bull%hit” and you tell him to “Put up or shut up!!! ?
Now I have truly “heard it all”
Well you got the second part right anyway.
Where the hell do you come up with that. I never said any of that.
No that is not my logic. That is your trying to play the victim.
MB4 on April 5, 2008 at 4:11 PM
Who said anything like that?
Specifically, where did I say that?
You seem to be the one who can’t handle any dissent from your viewpoint.
You are just another “victim” I guess.
MB4 on April 5, 2008 at 4:22 PM
“Cut and run attitude”?
Are you related to Al Gore?
He talks the same $hit except instead of “cut and run attitude”, he uses either “deniers” and “flat-earthers” for his epithet.
Not a nickels worth of difference.
MB4 on April 5, 2008 at 4:34 PM
There is nothing about being a victim in my posts.
MB4 and Gochet whinnyed about how much Iraq is a failure and made it clear that:
KW64, you know where you can put the point of that spear? Where the sun don’t shine!
Remark by mister RVN Gocht to a vet who actually has been in Iraq.
MB4,KW64 has actually fought in Iraq so your defense in your post of “now I have truly heard it all” applies to Gocht since he has not been there…right?
So you, the Bush boy and the good General can take a long damn walk on a very short pier!
Hope you can swim…maybe not!
Baxter Greene on April 5, 2008 at 11:53 AM
You too Baxter!
This “good General” is also fighting on the ground in Iraq.
You and your buddy Gocht have not been able to provide one piece of evidence that shows he or the President are lying about what is going on in Iraq.
Your insults are not facts,they are pretty much whinny rants that we hear from the code pink crowd on a regular basis.
Mb4, you brought up whether I was a soldier or not.It had
nothing to do with the subject matter and then you roll on rants saying that I am putting words in your mouth concerning the chicken Hawk argument that always comes up when the anti-war crowd cannot back up their rhetoric.
Then you try to shut me down by using,yeah..well, the stupid chicken hawk argument with:
So let me see if I have this straight now as it all seems so wild.
Gocht was Special Forces in RVN and you “know many vets” and you talk about “his” “cut and run Bull%hit” and you tell him to “Put up or shut up!!! ?
Now I have truly “heard it all”
The fact that gocht was special forces in Nam is not a ticket for you are him spout crap off that cannot be backed up.
“The Put up or shut up” was in direct reference to putting
forth facts that the surge was not working or that the unbelievable amount of evidence that shows that it is was false.Something neither one of you has done.
If you guys are sensitive about insults,then don’t be insulting.
I have handled dissent by providing facts that show you and
your buddy Gocht are wrong about the surge.This is not victimization,it is putting the cut and run mentality in it’s place.
Mb4, if you can’t handle the “cut and run”reference than you going to have to get over it. If the shoe fits,wear it.I don’t tell you what to say and I sure as He!! don’t need you telling me what to say.
Here are some people in one of those places that was written off as lost to the enemy that would disagree with
your “all is lost” mentality:
The Liberation of Karmah, Part I
http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/03/the-liberation.php
KARMAH, IRAQ – Just beyond the outskirts of Fallujah lies the terror-wracked city of Karmah. While you may not have heard of this small city of 35,000 people, American soldiers and Marines who served in Anbar Province know it as a terrifying place of oppression, death, and destruction. “It was much worse than Fallujah” said more than a dozen Marines who were themselves based in Fallujah.
“Karmah was so important to the insurgency because we’ve got Baghdad right there,” Lieutenant Andrew Macak told me. “This is part of the periphery of Baghdad. At the same time, it is part of the periphery of Fallujah.”
Just more freedom being brought to people that you and your
buddy Gocht think is such a big waste of time and money.
Baxter Greene on April 5, 2008 at 10:25 PM
I don’t have the patience to respond to all of your lengthy litany of complaints, but I’ll take the one that seems to have got you the most bent, the one that you keep trying to play the victim with.
You said -
Seems like when one takes it to himself to speak for soldiers, it is a natural question to ask if that person has ever been one himself, as even most soldiers don’t think that even they can speak for the other soldiers, and in fact resent it. Kind of like if someone was speaking for doctors someone else, particularly one who was or had been one, might ask if that person was a doctor.
Are you able to follow me here?
And then you top it off with, “something you are apparently incapable of.” That “Chicken” insult doesn’t go over real well with those who are or were actual soldiers.
MB4 on April 6, 2008 at 12:19 AM
BTW, being against the continuing large scale American involvement in Iraq, which I do not believe is in America’s best interest, after five years and counting, does not make someone “anti-war crowd”, so just stop it with your name-calling poo slinging.
MB4 on April 6, 2008 at 12:37 AM
The “unbelievable” (Was that a Freudian slip on your part?) evidence that “the surge was working” would be if it ended and American troops were on their way home. That is usually how success is measured.
BTW, the Surge was originally suppose to last for 8 months.
How did that work out?
MB4 on April 6, 2008 at 12:47 AM
Mb4, the fact that you cannot read or interpret is your problem not mine.
Seems like when one takes it to himself to speak for soldiers, it is a natural question to ask if that person has ever been one himself, as even most soldiers don’t think that even they can speak for the other soldiers, and in fact resent it. Kind of like if someone was speaking for doctors someone else, particularly one who was or had been one, might ask if that person was a doctor.
Are you able to follow me here?
Please show me where I am “speaking” for soldiers genius.
When I said,”All I have ever seen a soldier ask for” is stating what I have seen and heard,not putting words in someone’s mouth.
The comprehension problem is with you,not me.
If you could post how the evidence showing the surge is not
working and the Soldiers on the ground that have been told to “take a long walk off a short pier” and “Petraeus is the
grass and Sadr is the lawnmower” are somehow liars,I am
waiting. Seems your sensitivity about what is said to soldiers only applies when someone does not agree with you,
or you would have called Gocht out on his insults to Petraeus…right?
Mb4,
“And then you top it off with, “something you are apparently incapable of.” That “Chicken” insult doesn’t go over real well with those who are or were actual soldiers.”
Once again,your reading problems are not mine.
Please show me where I called an actual Soldier a “chicken”
You can’t because I haven’t.
your Micheal Moore cut and paste selection is pathetic.
The only reference to “chicken” was the “chicken hawk”
statement made in reference to you bringing up whether I was
a soldier are not.
What does me being a soldier or not have anything to do with whether the surge is working and whether you can back
up your rhetoric?
Mb4,
BTW, the Surge was originally suppose to last for 8 months.
How did that work out?
So,let me get this straight,you are so familiar with military operations that you can say that the surge is working without showing any proof what.. so.. ever,and if a military operation goes on longer than it is supposed to,it
must mean it is failure.
Is anybody supposed to take you seriously with this drivel?
If anyone sounds like Al-gore,Pelosi,or Reid,it is definitely you:
COMPARE AND CONTRAST
April 4, 2008
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives2/2008/04/020215.php
Ayman al-Zawahiri, from his online chat a few days ago:
As-Sahab: And what is the most important field in which this Mujahid vanguard is wrestling with the enemies of Islam?
Zawahiri: Iraq is the most important of these fields.
Nancy Pelosi, from her press conference yesterday:
As we’ve said before and I’ll end by saying: How is this war in Iraq helping us fight the war on terrorism, the real war on terrorism, Afghanistan?
Fine example of having your head straight up your a$$.
Baxter Greene on April 6, 2008 at 8:42 AM
mB4,
should be “not”working.
So,let me get this straight,you are so familiar with military operations that you can say that the surge is NOT working without showing any proof what.. so.. ever,and if a military operation goes on longer than it is supposed to,it
must mean it is failure.
Is anybody supposed to take you seriously with this drivel?
Baxter Greene on April 6, 2008 at 8:48 AM
Is this going to be a problem?
Is President Bush planning an October Surprise? What will General Petraeus say this week about Iran?
J_Gocht on April 6, 2008 at 12:24 PM
Re: J_Gocht’s post that the “point of the spear” unit broke and about where I could put the point of the spear:
The point-of-the-spear units for right now are American. They have armor, and can co-oridinate air and artillery support. They also have more aerial recon assets. The Iraqi unit that broke had no armor, no indigienous artillary and was not co-ordinating any air support from coalition air power. It was one month out of basic training. It was not ready nor adequately equiped or assisted for a frontal assault on areas where the degree of resistance was not well scoped out. This type unit should work closely with experienced units before being put into that kind of engagement.
One could also suggest that Maliki needs to integrate his limited armor into his infantry units instead of keeping it all in one unit that was no where near this battle.
KW64 on April 6, 2008 at 12:34 PM
Well, congratulations, Baxter. You have come up with a concise summation of your own comments. You really are quite the word smith aren’t you.
MB4 on April 6, 2008 at 3:37 PM
Let’s just say, Baxter, that my familiarity with military operations far exceeds yours.
MB4 on April 6, 2008 at 3:42 PM
By Bush’s Own Standard, Surge Has Failed.
Before Gen. David Petraeus’ report, and to give it a context of optimism, the president visited Iraq’s Anbar province to underscore the success of the surge in making some hitherto anarchic areas less so. More significant, however, was the fact that the president did not visit Baghdad. This underscored the fact that the surge has failed, as measured by the president’s and Petraeus’ standards of success.
Those who today stridently insist that the surge has succeeded also say they are especially supportive of the president, Petraeus and the military generally. But at the beginning of the surge, both Petraeus and the president defined success in a way that took the achievement of success out of America’s hands.
The purpose of the surge, they said, is to buy time — “breathing space,” the president says — for Iraqi political reconciliation. Because progress toward that has been negligible, there is no satisfactory answer to this question: What is the U.S. military mission in Iraq?
Many of those who insist that the surge is a harbinger of U.S. victory in Iraq are making the same mistake they made in 1991 when they urged an advance on Baghdad, and in 2003 when they underestimated the challenge of building democracy there. The mistake is exaggerating the relevance of U.S. military power to achieve political progress in a society riven by ethnic and sectarian hatreds. America’s military leaders, who are professional realists, do not make this mistake.
The progress that Petraeus reports in improving security in portions of Iraq is real. It might, however, have two sinister aspects.
First, measuring sectarian violence is problematic: The Washington Post reports that a body with a bullet hole in the front of the skull is considered a victim of criminality; a hole in the back of the skull is evidence of sectarian violence. But even if violence is declining, that might be partly because violent sectarian cleansing has separated Sunni and Shiite communities. This homogenization of hostile factions — trained and armed by U.S. forces — may bear poisonous fruit in a full-blown civil war.
Second, brutalities by al-Qaeda in Iraq have indeed provoked some Sunni leaders to collaborate with U.S. forces. But these alliances of convenience might be inconvenient when Shiites again become the Sunnis’ principal enemy.
,
,
,
A democracy, wrote the diplomat and scholar George Kennan, “fights for the very reason that it was forced to go to war. It fights to punish the power that was rash enough and hostile enough to provoke it — to teach that power a lesson it will not forget, to prevent the thing from happening again. Such a war must be carried to the bitter end.” Which is why “unconditional surrender” was a natural U.S. goal in World War II, and why Americans were so uncomfortable with three “wars of choice” since then — in Korea, Vietnam and Iraq.
What “forced” America to go to war in 2003 — the “gathering danger” of weapons of mass destruction — was fictitious. That is one reason why this war will not be fought, at least not by Americans, to the bitter end. The end of the war will, however, be bitter for Americans, partly because the president’s decision to visit Iraq without visiting its capital confirmed the flimsiness of the fallback rationale for the war — the creation of a unified, pluralist Iraq.
After more than four years of war, two questions persist: Is there an Iraq? Are there Iraqis?
- George Will
MB4 on April 6, 2008 at 3:55 PM