Social con group to McCain: Just say no to Mitt

posted at 9:51 pm on April 3, 2008 by Allahpundit

“Utterly unacceptable”? Even I wouldn’t go that far, and I’ve been cool to the idea of putting him on the ticket for months. Quote:

“If Governor Romney is on your ticket, many social conservative voters will consider their values repudiated by the Republican Party and will either stay away from the polls this November or only vote down ticket. For the sake of your election, the health of your party, and the future of America you must not allow the obvious electoral consequences of that to occur,” concludes the text of the ad.

Click the first link above to see the full text of the ad, which zeroes in predictably on abortion and gay marriage. Here’s the background as regards the latter; if Mitt did the Log Cabin Republicans some big favor, it’s obviously been lost on them. Meanwhile, the My Man Mitt site is in high dudgeon, flinging links aplenty claiming that the ad is misleading. The curious part is why any of this should be troubling to Paul Weyrich, who endorsed Romney for president as recently as four months ago, long after his positions on these issues had shaken out. This makes him the anti-Dobson, I guess.

Exit question: What’s this really about? After 18 months of Romney running for president, suddenly these guys have a problem with his record?


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Leave Matrix Island people, and free your soul.

Conservatives don’t like Romney’s political record because it resembles a liberal one. Very. Um. Simple. It has nothing to do with bigotry. Thank you. Have a wonderful day.

apacalyps on April 4, 2008 at 11:44 AM

ThackerAgency on April 4, 2008 at 11:33 AM
apacalyps on April 4, 2008 at 11:35 AM

I have no problem understanding that people have issues with whether Mitt was a conservative or not, whether he flip flopped, I think you would agree that that’s the corect way to choose a candidate. I understand your issues with Mitt regarding his positions. But to me it is obvious that SOME people judge him on his faith. What makes it obvious to me is comments like this:

“Watch and see. Go ahead nominate Romni. It will be the end of the republican party, when the rockefeller republicans finally force the Christians out!

You’ll never win another election EVER!”

I mean, does that sound rational and based on Mitt’s record? When the Rockefeller’s force the Chritains out. What does that even mean?
I don’t think anyone who disagrees with Mitt’s record or Candidacy are bigots. But there are a good number of bigots out there and that’s been obvious to me and a lot of other people watching the race.

Geronimo on April 4, 2008 at 11:48 AM

I have a problem with Romney’s mandate on health insurance in Massachusetts. I have some problems with his flip-flopping, although I’m willing to accept (warily) that he’s had a change of heart.

But, I feel that I need to try to explain why I brought up the LA Times article. I’m not anti-Mormon in that I don’t care what they believe as long as Mormonism does not effect our Constitution. Someone above mentioned that Romney would keep religion out of politics and I think that’s true.

Here is where my concern lies: Joseph Smith stated that he thought Muhammad was worth emulating. So I want to know if Romney thinks Smith was right. As a Mormon, Romney has a sense of what it’s like to be on the receiving end of religious bigotry. We have Muslim groups in our country, (like CAIR), who are in the business of claiming bigotry/Islamophobia. They were able to infiltrate the White House as being representative of mainstream Muslim America because Clinton bent over backwards to make himself loved, and because Bush was naive. This has not served us well at all and, imo, has been dangerous in terms of national security.

So my concern is will Romney, because of the beliefs of Smith, but more so because of his experience dealing with bigotry against him and his faith, continue the naive empathy with groups like CAIR that could compromise our national security. This is why I was somewhat relieved when Andrew McCarthy joined his team – because McCarthy understands the finer points of Islam and could educate Romney.

I don’t know if I’ve made this any clearer. I’m sure you’ll let me know.

Connie on April 4, 2008 at 12:03 PM

Mitt would be a good candidate for VP, CANDIDATE, he would have to prove that what he was campaigning on in the last few weeks of his campaign (which was different from the first few months), is truly what he believes.
Mitts weakness, is he will say and support most anything to get a few votes. He needs to be seasoned, needs to set standards and stick with them, he needs to distance himself from the same people who have supported him financially and politically (same people), and learn to work for other candidates and with other people besides his little “inner” group of associates.
Right now, he looks like a candidate, talks like a candidate, but his history is too suspect.

right2bright on April 4, 2008 at 12:14 PM

I have no problem understanding that people have issues with whether Mitt was a conservative or not, whether he flip flopped, I think you would agree that that’s the corect way to choose a candidate.

Geronimo on April 4, 2008 at 11:48 AM

Excellent point.

But to me it is obvious that SOME people judge him on his faith.

And what’s wrong with that? Why shouldn’t we take into consideration a person’s faith when it comes to voting for them, and I include evolutionary thinking under the definition of faith as well. If you think a person can seperate their deeply held beliefs from politics you are kidding yourself. It plays a crucial role. For instance, look up the word “Al Takiyah,” “Takia,” or “Al-Taqiyah”. It’s spelled something like that. The Islamic concept of Al-Taqiyah is to infiltrate and destroy infidel countries. The Quran allows Muslims to lie to spread their religion. I ask you under these circumstances how could anyone trust a Muslim? It’s a serious question. I want to know.

And back to Mitt. Whether you like it or not many Christians are offended when Mormons who call themsevles Christians. Do a bit of reading on the Christianity vs Mormonism to learn why. And so many of them will not vote for Romney. It has nothing to do with bigotry. Most Mormons are very nice people.

apacalyps on April 4, 2008 at 12:16 PM

I don’t think anyone who disagrees with Mitt’s record or Candidacy are bigots. But there are a good number of bigots out there and that’s been obvious to me and a lot of other people watching the race.

Geronimo on April 4, 2008 at 11:48 AM

Precisely! It’s quite apparent that something else is driving people like when completely disingenuous, red flag items are purported like fact, like the $50 Abortion Co-Pay canard. People are smart around here and see through the screed for what is driving it…

Leave Matrix Island people, and free your soul.

Conservatives don’t like Romney’s political record because it resembles a liberal one. Very. Um. Simple. It has nothing to do with bigotry. Thank you. Have a wonderful day.

apacalyps on April 4, 2008 at 11:44 AM

Good to see you again – you help prove my point. I know you’re an ardent Huckabee fan and you bought into the above canard hook-line-and-sinker because it fits your agenda. That said, I harbor no hard or ill feelings against you but your completely erroneous and unhinged rant at me about Mormonism when I was attempting to have a discussion on that dead thread with you (of which I left because you couldn’t keep it civil) leaves me to believe that Romney’s record will be distorted to fit an “agenda“.

I’m not even going to argue his record is perfect; by no means is it. That’s not the point – the point is the underlying driver behind the distortion, which most of the time is a combination of outright bigotry and control/power issues.

This campaign against Mitt reeks of that agenda.

SkinnerVic on April 4, 2008 at 12:18 PM

On Fox right now, they have a supposed spokeswoman named Sandy Rios (?), one of 12 reported involved with this statement. Twelve people and she claims to be speaking for thousands if not millions of conservatives claiming “Say NO to Mitt? Talk about exaggeration!

Earlier, FOX played the entire speech Obama gave honoring MLK – several minutes in length not cutting from applause. . . followed by a similar speech given outdoors in the rain, by McCain (he was obscured by the many umbrellas and was booed. You can’t find a better bargain for that kind of campaign time on tv. The press is sooo un-endingly biased in favor of Obama it makes me SICK.

This election cycle is sooo utterly disenchanting – Feh!

heroyalwhyness on April 4, 2008 at 12:26 PM

And another thing. Mitt couldn’t beat Huckabee in the South where McCain needs help. Hello. Te South is the heart and soul of conservatism. Have any of you forgot that? Hey, at this point I don’t really care who McCain’s VP choice is. And I don’t think Huckabee should try for it. However, based on Huck’s success in the heartland of America, it seems to me he’d be a better choice than Romney.

P.S. Lastly, this election year will be remembered as the one that destroyed the Republican party. The conservative movement in America is over. *sigh*

apacalyps on April 4, 2008 at 12:27 PM

Many of the signatures on the petition sign with comments such as “Please pick Mitt!” which this org will count as “against Mitt” sig’s. Aye yi yi

JustTruth101 on April 4, 2008 at 12:29 PM

Man, there are some serious whoppers in this thread.

Thackeragency: don’t try to pin gay marriage in Mass. on Mitt. He fought it tooth and nail; and in fact his fight on that is one of the main things that brought him to prominence in national politics. Don’t forget Mitt came up with the 1913 law that forbid Massachuessetts from becoming the Las Vegas of gay marriage. He tried over and over to get a referendum to overturn the state supreme court’s gay marriage thing, only to be thwarted by the Dems.

On Health care, he went to the Heritage foundation to construct a health plan. That’s not HillaryCare. He at least tried to do something about it; what has anyone else done? He’s tried to do it as conservatively as possible, while saving the state money AND increasing personal responsibility.

Now, the “Mormons are the same as Muslims!!!!” bilge that is being peddled suddenly in this thread. What nonsense. We believe there is some good in Islam (I am a Mormon). Things like the call to pray often; fasting, dedication to God: those are good things. There is some truth in Islam, just as there is in all religions–if there weren’t any truth, none would last long.

We do cooperate with some Islamic things: lots of ancient documents, for instance. We do provide humanitarian aid, which is usually overseen by our missionaries and not just a blank check handed over like the liberals would like. We try to teach self-sufficiency, etc.

I recall reading a story about some palestinian student who was visiting at BYU, the church owned school. He said he’d arrived with this view of Americans as, basically, liberal dems from Hollywood. I.E. amoral druggies who sleep around, are selfish brats, etc. But being around a predominantly LDS culture showed him that yes, people can be kind, loving, and have good morals. He left a much more friendly person to America.

That’s the kind of outreach we do. We find what we have in common and try to build on it, while not giving in to the stupid stuff Islam has in it.

On occasion, we have felt a bit of common ground with Islam–moderate Islam, due to feeling like a minority. I still maintain that the LDS church has suffered far more persecution than any Muslim ever has in this country. As proven by some of the posts in this thread, there are people who hate, hate, hate Mormons. There are some people on HotAir who, if they had Joseph Smith or Osama in their sights and only one bullet, would shoot Joseph Smith and let Osama run free.

But that’s okay; I recall Christ wasn’t exactly welcomed by the local dominant religion either, so we don’t expect to be smothered with love either.

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 12:30 PM

John s mccain,lll is aware of the value of Mormans to join the fight with him.He is also aware of the opinion of the “John Hagee type” bible teachers who are also necessary to the victory he seeks. It will be interesting to see his strategy in this decision. Either way he will be attacked for “religious pandering”.I expect he will stay within the pro-Israel christian groups and that means Romney will have to wait until 2012.

jimw on April 4, 2008 at 12:32 PM

Good to see you again – you help prove my point. I know you’re an ardent Huckabee fan and you bought into the above canard hook-line-and-sinker because it fits your agenda. That said, I harbor no hard or ill feelings against you…

SkinnerVic on April 4, 2008 at 12:18 PM

Hi SkinnerVic. I hope you’re doing well. I like you and am still waiting for you to switch sides. Converted Mormons make great Christians. I’m praying for you buddy.

apacalyps on April 4, 2008 at 12:36 PM

I expect he will stay within the pro-Israel christian groups and that means Romney will have to wait until 2012.

jimw on April 4, 2008 at 12:32 PM

He’d be smart to side with pro-Israel groups. Read Genesis 12:3. Aside from that Israel is the only sane nation in the Middle East unless you haven’t noticed the news lately.

apacalyps on April 4, 2008 at 12:43 PM

Tempest in a teapot. I doubt that McCain has any intention of nominating Romney anyways- if you’re going up against a slick talking, platitude spewing Obama who goes on about “change”, why would you want a slick talking, platitude spewing Romney who went on about “change”?

Hollowpoint on April 4, 2008 at 12:43 PM

One more thing: The LDS church strongly supports Israel, unlike the insinuations that we are Muslims in sheep’s clothing.

We have the BYU Jerusalem center, one of the landmarks in Jerusalem. Orson Hyde, an early LDS church leader, actually has a statue in Jerusalem recognizing his efforts to start the return to Israel.

The LDS church strongly, strongly, identifies with the concept of Israel: far more than most Christians, in fact. We tie ourselves theologically to the tribes of Israel. Why would we suddenly stop that? Don’t forget: Brigham Young was referred to as “America’s Moses” and in fact, much of Utah geographically is like the land of Israel, including the Great Salt Lake as the Dead Sea and even a river Jordon flowing into it from a freshwater lake. Don’t think that little geographic situation has escaped our attention.

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 12:45 PM

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 12:30 PM

Informative post.

Connie on April 4, 2008 at 12:46 PM

There are some people on HotAir who, if they had Joseph Smith or Osama in their sights and only one bullet, would shoot Joseph Smith and let Osama run free.

But that’s okay; I recall Christ wasn’t exactly welcomed by the local dominant religion either, so we don’t expect to be smothered with love either.

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 12:30 PM

Typical response from someone who carries the “victim” card with them, and play it at every chance.
Bullet for Smith, how insane…Smith was a con man, and a false prophet, but not worth a bullet from a HA poster.
As if Mormons are the only class of people to feel “persecution”, then don’t knock on doors asking for it. If you are in someones face, telling them they are fools, then guess what, you get dissed. You’re trained for your combat, don’t whine about it.
Christians are bashed, Catholics are bashed (when was the last time someone busted into your church/stake in costume and through faux blood on people), fat people are persecuted, old people, blacks, Mexicans, Asians (Chinese, Vietnamese, Koreans)—how many Korean shop owners have been shot and robbed compared to Mormons–give it up, your victim card is worn and tattered. Try telling a Jew you are more persecuted them him…the man who everyday wonders if he or his family will be physically attacked…at least they put the Mormon’s in their place by demanding no more baptism for the dead of Jews, a despicable practice (obviously, because the Mormons rolled over and promised not to).
Aren’t you the one that said they would give up their underage daughter to the president of your religion if he asked? Yeah, that shows Mormons are just like any other religion…
I don’t think you’re in any position to criticize other peoples position with that belief.

right2bright on April 4, 2008 at 12:48 PM

unlike the insinuations that we are Muslims in sheep’s clothing.

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 12:45 PM

I missed that part, I think. So, do you have any information to offer on which Muslim American groups the LDS chooses to work with? FWIW, I am trying to determine the same for my own faith.

Connie on April 4, 2008 at 12:54 PM

It has nothing to do with bigotry. Most Mormons are very nice people.

apacalyps on April 4, 2008 at 12:16 PM

LOL. And some of your best friends are black, right? The only thing you haven’t done yet is start off a sentence with, “Now, I’m not a bigot,…but,…”

a capella on April 4, 2008 at 12:58 PM

Mitt Romney was a breath of fresh air…

… now we are stuck with the taste of Grampa’s mothballs in our mouths.

Jared_MA on April 4, 2008 at 1:01 PM

Connie on April 4, 2008 at 12:54 PM

I looked this up on LDS and Muslim relations and found it an interesting read.

Geronimo on April 4, 2008 at 1:02 PM

Don’t forget: Brigham Young (2nd President of Mormon church) was referred to as “America’s Moses” ….

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 12:45 PM

That same Mormon President, Brigham Young, said, “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.” – Mormon President, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses. vol. 10, p. 110.

apacalyps on April 4, 2008 at 1:04 PM

Connie: I don’t think we actually work with any Muslim American groups; honestly, we don’t have much to do with Islam considering how many people are Muslim. We are forbidden to preach/worship/ etc in Saudi Arabia just as everyone else. We have missionaries in a few countries, but not many. I think we work with the Red Crescent a fair bit.

right2bright: *sigh* Are you still trying to dispute that the LDS church as a whole is the most persecuted religious group in US history? And there is one poster who used to frequent here who may still chime in, but he to this day wants to shoot any Mormon in Missouri–he admitted it. To this very day! He never would respond when I asked him if he would support the US army physically driving out Mormons from America, even though I asked him over ten seperate times over weeks. From this, I assume he would support it (after all, as anti-Mormon as you are, you wouldn’t support that, and you are quick to say so). LDS churches have been the increasing focus of arson recently, which I view as slightly worse than the “faux blood” bit, though of course that was horrible as well.

I’ve never claimed the LDS church has suffered more than the Jews worldwide; just in the U.S.

And baptism for the dead is not a “despicable practice” despite your hysteria. The reason we stopped is because they asked, and we won’t be blamed in the next life by those who’s salvation is delayed by this.

Someday it will restart, once we have permission. Just as someday we will be allowed to proselyte in Israel.

And as for the “underage daughter” bit, let me ask you: If you were alive in the day with the apostles, and Peter asked you to, would you? If not, how could you claim to be a Christian, willing to sacrifice all things for the Lord?

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 1:07 PM

Geronimo on April 4, 2008 at 1:02 PM

Thanks. I’ll check it out.

Connie on April 4, 2008 at 1:07 PM

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 1:07 PM

Again, thanks for the info.

Connie on April 4, 2008 at 1:09 PM

Hey apacalyps: your pretensions to not being an anti-Mormon bigot are showing. If you wish to pretend you aren’t religiously biased, I’d advise shutting up now.

Christ referred to Gentiles as “dogs,” which were forbidden to have the Gospel and the saving power of Christ’s sacrifice. Tell me how much you criticize Him for that. It’s true that later on, those laws were repealed by Peter’s vision, which is analogous to our situation.

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 1:11 PM

Geronimo on April 4, 2008 at 1:02 PM

Actually, the article there is the same one I posted near the beginning of the thread.

Connie on April 4, 2008 at 1:13 PM

How about everything b*tching about his or her religion just get a life. You all kill any point of reading these threads.

Jared_MA on April 4, 2008 at 1:15 PM

Connie on April 4, 2008 at 1:13 PM

Doh!

Geronimo on April 4, 2008 at 1:17 PM

LOL. And some of your best friends are black, right? The only thing you haven’t done yet is start off a sentence with, “Now, I’m not a bigot,…but,…”

a capella on April 4, 2008 at 12:58 PM

You’re red shirt goes well with your eyes…

I have black friends, asian friends, european friends…. etcetra, etcetera. The Bible says in Acts 17:26 that God has “made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth.” I do know this, all nations are of one blood, and we are not superior to the blacks, or the Orientals, or any other color, just because we may be white. We are all the same, and I am very much against racism!

apacalyps on April 4, 2008 at 1:18 PM

Christ referred to Gentiles as “dogs,” which were forbidden to have the Gospel and the saving power of Christ’s sacrifice.

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 1:11 PM

Show me what you’re talking about with Scripture so I can respond.

Tell me how much you criticize Him for that. It’s true that later on, those laws were repealed by Peter’s vision, which is analogous to our situation.

???

apacalyps on April 4, 2008 at 1:23 PM

You’re red shirt goes well with your eyes…

I have black friends, asian friends, european friends…. etcetra, etcetera. The Bible says in Acts 17:26 that God has “made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth.” I do know this, all nations are of one blood, and we are not superior to the blacks, or the Orientals, or any other color, just because we may be white. We are all the same, and I am very much against racism!

apacalyps on April 4, 2008 at 1:18 PM

Never mind. You missed the point entirely, which allowed you to maintain your present batting average and street creds.

a capella on April 4, 2008 at 1:29 PM

Don’t forget: Brigham Young was referred to as “America’s Moses”

I didn’t know that Moses was the theocratic, murderous dictator that Young was.

Hollowpoint on April 4, 2008 at 1:35 PM

Vanceone,

You are teaching false doctrine…that is a sin and very displeasing to God.

Jesus Christ very clearly explains that racism is unacceptable and not valid in the story of the good samaritan.

This was shocking to the people of that day.

There is no racism in Christianity. “There is neither jew nor greek, there is neither bond nor free,there is neither male nor female, for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”

The belief in racism against blacks in mormonism is another one of it’s many,serious flaws that go against the Word of God.

SaintOlaf on April 4, 2008 at 1:36 PM

And as for the “underage daughter” bit, let me ask you: If you were alive in the day with the apostles, and Peter asked you to, would you? If not, how could you claim to be a Christian, willing to sacrifice all things for the Lord?

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 1:07 PM

First of all, I don’t live in the “days of the apostles”, so lets answer for today. If someone came to me (like the president of my church), and said I want your 14 year old daughter to marry and have sex with, No would be the least of the responses…yours is to hand her over (as you had stated). We differ, live with it. And Smith and Young did that in the mid to late 1800′s, not 2,000 years ago. Great mentors of yours to follow, how comforting.
Despicable, because that is what the Jews called it and the Mormon’s apologized. This was not an easy concession, they (Mormons) had to admit they did wrong. Baptizing someone dead is one of the weirdest things, how many points do you get for that?
And no, Jews have been much more harassed and persecuted then your religion, and like I said, if you knock on someones door and tell them they are fools, what do you expect? I have never had a Jew knock on my door to convince me my religion was wrong…have you?
I think you better take some time and go to your local synagogue, or to a holocaust museum (it has the US history also), you will learn a lot. They (Jews) just don’t whine about it like mormons. I have never seen a college campus march against “Mormon aggression”, have you? I have never seen college campuses, across the nation, demand for the destruction of Utah, like the Jewish state…you live in a victim fantasy land.
And let me make something very clear, the Mormon religion I consider foolish and wrong, just like you and other Mormon’s consider Christianity foolish and wrong (or why would you go about knocking on doors to convert), but the people are like any other, most good, some bad…just like any other group of people. It is the doctrine that is so wrong…but willing to give away a young daughter, man that is just plain wrong, wrong, wrong…and that is who you admire, not the giver, but the taker…too weird for me. And believe me, I pray you see what you have bought into…

right2bright on April 4, 2008 at 1:38 PM

right2bright on April 4, 2008 at 1:38 PM

You have had Mormons come to your door and convince you that your religion was wrong? Really, they came out and said that? Did they just want to talk to you or did they accuse you right off the bat?

Geronimo on April 4, 2008 at 1:43 PM

I certainly hope we don’t hear any complaints from Paul Weyrich that Mitt is a flip flopper.

GING PAC is run by William J. Murray. Here’s the wiki page on him. His mother was Madelyn Murray O’Hair.

…There is some irony in that Obama distorts McCain’s comments on Iraq in the same manner he did to Romney.

Spirit of 1776 on April 3, 2008 at 10:18 PM

Touche’

Buy Danish on April 4, 2008 at 1:47 PM

Buy Danish on April 4, 2008 at 1:47 PM

Heh, I found that rather ironic as well.

Geronimo on April 4, 2008 at 1:48 PM

Here is the scripture I was referring to: Matthew 15:26.

22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not asent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.

Was Christ Racist? Of course not. But theologically speaking, Gentiles were not eligible for salvation; thus restricting salvation to Jews. It was later, in the Acts, when Peter had the vision of the sheet with unclean animals and then baptized the Centurion.

There is no racism in Christianity, St. Olaf? Then why was it Christians who had slaves? No Mormon had slaves, and no Mormon justified it with Scriptures as our so-called fellow “Christians” did.

Hollowpoint: you HAVE to be joking. Name one person that Brigham murdered. And Moses was accused several times of things; he also killed a fair number. Moses, indeed, killed an Egyptian with his own hands. You DO remember that, correct? He was a theocratic type, and those who opposed him died (via God’s power, mostly). He had those who worshipped the Golden Calf killed, as I recall. See Exodus 32:25-30.

You could EASILY call Moses a “theocratic murdering dictator” if you didn’t believe he was a representative of the true God. Same with Samuel, Gideon, and many more. Heck, Abraham could be guilty of it as well.

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 1:48 PM

Never mind. You missed the point entirely, which allowed you to maintain your present batting average and street creds.

a capella on April 4, 2008 at 1:29 PM

+1

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 1:11 PM

Duuude – Seriously, I’ve been there and “tried” to do that with Apacalyps, and it was all for not (see my 12:18PM post I’m referring to). I’m not all too sure that SaintOlaf isn’t an alternate nom de plume. ;)

That said, some others like R2B have worn the teeth off that saw with the Anti-Mormon bigamy rhetoric to the point I’ll offer to take that one up and leave him 0wn3d. How? Let’s put it this way: when your wife’s great-grandfather is George, you learn a lot about what it was about.

The only exception that comes to mind about not having that Agenda is Hollowpoint. He’s had beef with Mitt on more substantiative issues, coupled with a general malaise of the whole GOP offering to cause him displeasure – I’ll recognize him for that.

SkinnerVic on April 4, 2008 at 1:54 PM

…I have never seen a college campus march against “Mormon aggression”, have you? I have never seen college campuses, across the nation, demand for the destruction of Utah, like the Jewish state…

right2bright on April 4, 2008 at 1:38 PM

When did Utah become a country? I must have missed it.

Buy Danish on April 4, 2008 at 1:58 PM

Right2bright: Let me refer you to the “Extermination Order” from Missouri. Let me refer you to the “Utah war” wherein the President of the U.S. ordered over a quarter of the US Army to occupy Utah and destroy the LDS church. This was a real campaign; a full fledged military action. Tell me, when has the US government (any organization with military control) ordered the destruction and extermination of the Jews? Other countries, yes, but not the US. When in the US have Jews lost their right to vote, to hold office, been forced to testify against their spouses, and thrown in jail solely on the basis of their religious beliefs like Mormons have?

I’m sorry you don’t believe that God can talk to man; I am fairly confident you’d never have been a follower of Christ back when He was alive; or when the Apostles were. We DO believe that we are living in a time of Apostles, so my question is valid. I submit, sir, that you need to examine your life to see if you are willing to lose the whole world and follow Christ. See also Mark 10: 35-37. Note in particular the line about if you love your daughter more than the Lord, ye are not worthy of him. So condemn us for saying we will follow the words of Christ. In so doing, will you condemn Christ for asking it of us?

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 2:00 PM

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 2:00 PM

You rock!!

Geronimo on April 4, 2008 at 2:05 PM

Vanceone,

Curiously enough, you left out the next verse: 28 “Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.”

This is yet again another example of you skewing the Word of God. It is a very serious sin. All sinners will have their place in the lake of fire.

It’s ironic that the verses you quoted(while leaving out the most important part) actually disprove your point and illustrate the fact that gentiles would be blessed by the Messiah Jesus Christ.

SaintOlaf on April 4, 2008 at 2:06 PM

It is the doctrine that is so wrong… And believe me, I pray you see what you have bought into…

right2bright on April 4, 2008 at 1:38 PM

Amen. Say it loud and say it proud brother.

apacalyps on April 4, 2008 at 2:07 PM

Hollowpoint: you HAVE to be joking. Name one person that Brigham murdered.

I know that the official Mormon line is that he had nothing to do with it, but the blood of the 120 men, women and children murdered in the Mountain Meadows massacre is squarely on Young’s hands. Their crime? Trying to cross through “Mormon land”. Hardly comparable to anything surrounding Moses in the Old Testament.

And while the Mormon position is that the US government sought to depose him out of religious persecution (the same government that appointed him), it was his abuse of power that forced them to act.

Hollowpoint on April 4, 2008 at 2:08 PM

If any situation or group is going to cost us this election, it will be the Jesus Whigs. If that happens it will be time to remove them from the Republican party permanently.

revolution on April 4, 2008 at 2:13 PM

Hollowpoint: that is slander. Prove that Brigham knew. I honestly thought better of you–you at least had policy debates against Mitt, not this religious stuff.

You are accusing the governor of a territory of the United States with premeditated murder of a bunch of people, without any reason or motive. Tons of people went through the Utah territory to California, yet you just accuse the governor of that territory of randomly selecting a group of innocents and murdering them. And then you are imputing that to his religion, and thereby smearing all of those people who follow that religion.

St. Olaf, I appreciate your concern for my mortal soul, while noting that you have judged me that I am going to burn in hell. I hope that you are judged by and held to the same standards as you are holding me. I personally will approach the judgment seat of God with penitence and asking for mercy from my Savior, Jesus Christ, for my sins.

For the record, my point in bringing up that scripture was to show that under the same line of reasoning as you people condemn Mormons, you have to condemn Christ. He granted clemency to that one woman based on her faith, but gentiles were not to be preached to, nor eligible for salvation generally. Or will you say that any gentile could be saved when Christ was alive? You cannot condemn the LDS church without also condemning Christ’s teachings without being hypocritical.

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 2:16 PM

SaintOlaf on April 4, 2008 at 2:06 PM

Missed the point – Vanceone was illustrating the change in policy regarding the Gentiles brought about by revelation, which is also a point that he’s repeatedly put to others that has been curiously avoided on the topic of plural marriage… but I digress.

The folks here hijacking the thread to rant on LDS Theology speak to the tone and vitriol of this latest attack on Mitt. The irony is not lost on me.

SkinnerVic on April 4, 2008 at 2:19 PM

“If Governor Romney is on your ticket, many social conservative voters will consider their values repudiated by the Republican Party and will either stay away from the polls this November or only vote down ticket. For the sake of your election…

WTF? I though the Social Cons weren’t going to vote at all if McCain was the nominee.

Anyone want to bet if Romney were the nominee, they’d be sending the same message to him about McCain?

Spiny Norman on April 4, 2008 at 2:21 PM

If any situation or group is going to cost us this election, it will be the Jesus Whigs. If that happens it will be time to remove them from the Republican party permanently.

revolution on April 4, 2008 at 2:13 PM

I don’t see that happening. Not sure what you mean by Jesus whigs. I don’t see religion having any part of the race. Mitt is not going to be the VP. I would be more than shocked if he were. If anything costs McCain to lose this election it will be his positions. He should be able to beat Obama on his experience and pounding away at Rev. Wright. That should do it. Hillary scares me more but she seems to be out, for the most part.
How do you remove a block of voters from the Republican party?

Geronimo on April 4, 2008 at 2:24 PM

No I will not vote for Mccain…unless he picks an acceptable VP.

If he picks Romeny as VP I will vote..for Billary!

It would be worth it just to stop Rmni from getting so close to the presidency.

SaintOlaf on April 4, 2008 at 2:29 PM

No I will not vote for Mccain…unless he picks an acceptable VP.

If he picks Romeny as VP I will vote..for Billary!

It would be worth it just to stop Rmni from getting so close to the presidency.

SaintOlaf on April 4, 2008 at 2:29 PM

I rest my case.

Geronimo on April 4, 2008 at 2:30 PM

Indeed, Geronimo–Saint Olaf has pretty well demonstrated the validity of his positions by his actions.

Thanks, Skinnervic.

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 2:35 PM

Let me refer you to the “Extermination Order” from Missouri. Let me refer you to the “Utah war” wherein the President of the U.S. ordered over a quarter of the US Army to occupy Utah and destroy the LDS church. This was a real campaign; a full fledged military action. Tell me, when has the US government (any organization with military control) ordered the destruction and extermination of the Jews? Other countries, yes, but not the US. When in the US have Jews lost their right to vote, to hold office, been forced to testify against their spouses, and thrown in jail solely on the basis of their religious beliefs like Mormons

apacalyps on April 4, 2008 at 2:36 PM

The folks here hijacking the thread to rant on LDS Theology speak to the tone and vitriol of this latest attack on Mitt. The irony is not lost on me.

SkinnerVic on April 4, 2008 at 2:19 PM

What a joke! It’s you whiners who have to always make criticizing Romney’s political record about Mormonism. Every time someone talks about his liberal record you cry bigotry. It’s ridiculous.

apacalyps on April 4, 2008 at 2:39 PM

I find your whole “the Mormons have had it worse than the Jewish people” schtick, quite insulting.

apacalyps on April 4, 2008 at 2:36 PM

In America dude. In America.

Geronimo on April 4, 2008 at 2:40 PM

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 1:48 PM

It’s pointless really arguing about the finer points of Scripture with a Mormon when there are such GLARING DIFFERENCES between what Mormons believe and what Christians believe. So instead of wasting my time, I’ll pass.

apacalyps on April 4, 2008 at 2:44 PM

In America dude. In America.

Geronimo on April 4, 2008 at 2:40 PM

Whatever. Pretty sad.

apacalyps on April 4, 2008 at 2:48 PM

Indeed Vance you have demonstrated the non validity of mormonism by promoting anti scriptural values and have clearly showed your corrupt fruits by skewing the Word of God.

“A corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.”

You can beg Jesus for forgiveness on judgment day all you want. But you are warned about what to expect

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of the Father which is in heaven.”

A perfect judge will not allow a crime to go unpunished simply because the criminal apologizes.

In this same passage Jesus Christ clearly warns you about mormonism.

“Beware of false prophets,which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.”

“Ye shall know them by their fruits”. “Do men gather grapes of thorns,or figs of thistles?”

“A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.”

“Every tree that bringeth not good fruit is hewn down,and cast into the fire.”

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.”

SaintOlaf on April 4, 2008 at 2:55 PM

You are accusing the governor of a territory of the United States with premeditated murder of a bunch of people, without any reason or motive. Tons of people went through the Utah territory to California, yet you just accuse the governor of that territory of randomly selecting a group of innocents and murdering them. And then you are imputing that to his religion, and thereby smearing all of those people who follow that religion.

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 2:16 PM

Nowhere did I smear all Mormons. You’re the one who compared Young- a 19th century, power hungry theocrat who’s actions led to murder and acts of war against the US government- to Moses, a revered figure in both Christianity and Judiasm. I responded.

When I’ve said that I think it unfair Romney faced opposition based on his religion, I meant it even though I disliked him as a candidate. When I say I have nothing against Mormons personally, and that most seem like decent folks- I mean it.

That doesn’t mean I don’t have problems with the religion itself, particularly with regards to it’s founders.

I’m not going to waste time debating what Young’s role in the massacre was since it’s an unwinnable argument. However when all the circumstances are taken into account, I find it abhorrent that Brigham Young is revered as a hero- I see him as villian. Obviously nothing I say or any link I provide is going to change your view so I’ll leave it at that.

Hollowpoint on April 4, 2008 at 2:58 PM

Indeed Vance you have demonstrated the non validity of mormonism by promoting anti Scriptural values and have clearly showed your corrupt fruits by skewing the Word of God.

SaintOlaf on April 4, 2008 at 2:55 PM

You can say that again.

apacalyps on April 4, 2008 at 3:03 PM

SaintOlaf, just curious, what denomination are you?

Geronimo on April 4, 2008 at 3:08 PM

Look at that.

255 Comments in this thread.

Boy, I can sure draw a crowd. I’m like Charles Bronson. I don’t stop until the screamin’ starts. Well, my work here is done here.

Have a great day!

apacalyps on April 4, 2008 at 3:12 PM

Most of the time I go to a pentecostal church.

The Body of Christ would be a more accurate description of my “denomination”.

Do keep this in mind Geronimo: The entire Body of Christ does openly say that mormonism is not a member of the Body of Christ.

SaintOlaf on April 4, 2008 at 3:16 PM

What a joke! It’s you whiners who have to always make criticizing Romney’s political record about Mormonism. Every time someone talks about his liberal record you cry bigotry. It’s ridiculous.

apacalyps on April 4, 2008 at 2:39 PM

Once again, if you read correctly about any number of the canards (of which I disassembled one, someone another), all we are left with is hollow excuses on why you oppose the man. It doesn’t require a study to tell me what drives it, I can connect the dots and other can too – let’s not be naive here we know how you feel about the Mormons.

255 Comments in this thread.

Boy, I can sure draw a crowd. I’m like Charles Bronson. I don’t stop until the screamin’ starts. Well, my work here is done here.

Have a great day!

apacalyps on April 4, 2008 at 3:12 PM

Leaving so soon? You proceeded to give me a 6 post volumetric rant after I left on our theology discussion I referenced above because you were being foul. Nice to see the consistency.

SkinnerVic on April 4, 2008 at 3:21 PM

SaintOlaf on April 4, 2008 at 3:16 PM

Well, you’re entitled to believe whatever you wish, feel is right and have faith in. So do others.
I think if you have faith in the Bible, more power to you. LDS have faith in their religion, more power to them.
And I know people are thinking, “But Geronimo, what about Islam?”
Well, if they can keep it to themselves, great. If not, then we have a problem because Islam doesn’t seem to play well with others.

Geronimo on April 4, 2008 at 3:34 PM

“But there are a good number of bigots out there and that’s been obvious to me and a lot of other people watching the race.”

Especially the bigotry displayed against the ONE TRUE conservative, Huckabee.

Al-Ozarka on April 4, 2008 at 3:37 PM

John McCain was NEVER baptized.

Do you consider him a Christian?

Indy Conservative on April 4, 2008 at 12:08 AM

Neither was I, and I consider myself a Christian. More importantly, I believe JC does too. In other words, it’s none of your freakin’ business, and it’s NOT UP TO YOU. I’m thinkin’ it’s pretty un-Christian for you to be judging others’ eternal fates.

This whole anti-Romney thing is completely unsurprising to me. John McCain was right when he said they’re “agents of intolerance.” Besides, look who GINGPAC supports.

It’s time for a new generation of conservatives to push out these asshats. They have done absolutely NOTHING to grow the movement, and in fact, they’ve managed to drive people away. Mitt’s not my first choice for VP either, but I sure won’t be opposing him.

Then those social “religious” conservative groups should leave Romney alone and stop bugging him about his Mormonism.

Because if John McCain is not a Christian, since what makes a Christian is baptism, then they should go after McCain who doesn’t have a religion.

Bunch of hypocrites, liars, wrapped up in holiness clothes.

Indy Conservative on April 4, 2008 at 4:05 PM

I see apocalyps was just trolling. Nice work, linking to a video put forth by a company that makes it’s living bashing Mormons for profit. I have to emphasize this–they get paid to bash mormons.

I find this focus on LDS theology as heresy quite funny. Christ certainly preached heresy to the local “one true faith” at the time, Judaism. They killed Him for it, and today their spiritual descendants tried to do the same: intolerant, so-called “Christian” ministers who have nothing better to do than preach about how Mormons are eeeeevil and should be run out of town on a rail.

Just remember, Saint Olaf: the entire body of God’s church, Judaism, said that Jesus and his followers were wrong. Unless you say that the Jews had no true religion?

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 4:06 PM

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 12:30 PM

Thank you for providing some common sense to this thread. I was waiting for a Mormon perspective on all of this and you provided. It was also nice to hear a sane voice speak out against the Huckabee trolls yelling about gay marriage and $50 abortions. Saying this as someone who is very pro-life, but also takes a libertarian “what you do with your junk is none of my business, even if I believe that ‘dont lie with a man as you do with a woman, that is detestable’ is pretty clear…it’s still not my business” position on gay marriage, I know for a fact that Mitt fought hard to prevent it (thus the sour grapes from the Log Cabin Repubs). As for the abortion/health care plan issue, Mitt’s original plan was awesome…until the 90% lib dem legislature got at it.

To apacalyps and all the other Huckabee trolls:
STOP SAYING HUCKABEE WAS A CONSERVATIVE! He may hold social conservative positions, but he is far from conservative. I would fit him in with the liberal “compassionate conservative” Bush crowd that try to run on conservative principles, but then govern as the libs they are. Ask any Arkansas conservative (who also hold conservative positions in other areas outside of social issues) and they’ll tell you that Huckabee was not much different than Billy Jeff.

Especially the bigotry displayed against the ONE TRUE conservative, Huckabee.

There wasn’t any “bigotry” directed towards Huckabee! People just didn’t like his liberal record in Arkansas. They also don’t like people making their faith a central part of a campaign for a secular office.

malan89 on April 4, 2008 at 4:11 PM

bamapachyderm on April 4, 2008 at 12:39 AM

Then those social “religious” conservative groups should leave Romney alone and stop bugging him about his Mormonism.

Because if John McCain is not a Christian, since what makes a Christian is baptism, then they should go after McCain who doesn’t have a religion.

Bunch of hypocrites, liars, wrapped up in holiness clothes.

Indy Conservative on April 4, 2008 at 4:18 PM

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 4:06 PM

I found it interesting as well. Then I looked him up on Wikipedia.
Sounds like he’s in a “pound him in the a$$” prison for tax evasion. Seems like he didn’t feel like he wanted to pay taxes like the rest of us. Not to mention his interesting idea of schooling.

Other critics of Hovind have charged that Patriot Bible University is a diploma mill, as it has unreasonably low graduation requirements, lack of sufficient faculty or educational standards, and a suspicious tuition scheme.[9] The school’s current policies allow students to attain bachelor’s degrees, master’s degrees and even “Doctor of Ministry” degrees in months, rather than years, for as little as $25 per month. Currently Patriot offers a monthly fee, unlike most universities, which only charge per-credit fees.

Geronimo on April 4, 2008 at 4:24 PM

As my husband suggested, you can’t change a mind when they have their minds made up. When these people watch anti Mormon movies in their chapels, there’s no way to get them to read the truth. Do you think it has something to do with their ministers get paid – the Mormon Bishops do service for 4 to 5 years with no remuneration at all?
Anyway, THE MAN MENTIONED IT IS IN THE U.S. that the Mormon church has been so persecuted. IN THE U.S. Can’t you get that? No one disputes the Jews were murdered, starved, treated like sub humans during and before the 2nd WW. I hope when the perpetrators meet God – they will be judged as they should be. Of course no one is comparing what happened to the Jews and what happened to the Mormons. It was just stated that the U.S tried to exterminate the Mormons.

I agree with Geronimo:
Vanceone YOU ROCK.

Bambi on April 4, 2008 at 4:25 PM

Something tells me that the same “conservative Christians” opposing Romney because he’s a Mormon would also oppose him if he were a Jew. Am I wrong?

Halley on April 4, 2008 at 4:42 PM

Halley on April 4, 2008 at 4:42 PM

I think if Romney were a Jew, it would not be an issue because despite the vitriol we here from the middle east about Jews, here in America it wouldn’t be tolerated. At least I don’t think it would be but that’s a good question.

Geronimo on April 4, 2008 at 4:47 PM

Thanks for the words, everyone. I have to correct Geronimo, unfortunately. The video Apocalyps linked doesn’t have Hovind in it, rather someone named Bill McKeever, who makes his living bashing Mormonism. He’s like many other “Christian Ministries” who apparently thinks that attacking the faith of the LDS people is an effective and valuable way to save souls and, probably sheerly coincidentally, of course, make a living by telling people how much better they are than those evil Mormons.

I’ve looked at his site, and it’s apparent the site avoids dealing with any LDS works in defense, or at least ignores much of it. This group goes out of their way to protest at LDS events, much like the group that burst in and threw blood during a service in the Catholic Church. I wonder why the anti-mormons approve of this?

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 5:08 PM

The video Apocalyps linked doesn’t have Hovind in it, rather someone named Bill McKeever, who makes his living bashing Mormonism.

He also linked to a Hovind video (check his signature at the end of each of his posts, it links to some Hovind sermon) in addition to the JesusNotJoesph crap. Typical anti-LDS fare.

malan89 on April 4, 2008 at 5:11 PM

“South is the heart and soul of conservatism”

Really? I must have missed the part about Goldwater coming from the south. The south is the heart and soul of daddy state big government conservatism, certainly, but the two are not the same. Look west.

rightwingprof on April 4, 2008 at 5:17 PM

Malan89: you are right, he does link to Hovind. I stand corrected!

*snort* ten years for tax fraud! That’s hysterical. SOunds like a Huckabee character for sure. On another note, many of the prominent Anti-Mormons, like Walter Martin, etc. have all sorts of credibility issues. I wonder what it is about the field of anti-mormonism that seems to attract the low-lifes? Is it the fact there’s plenty of money to be made recycling arguments made in the 1830′s?

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 5:42 PM

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 2:00 PM

You never think that the Mormons were breaking the law. Polygamy was against the law, and taking child brides are not acceptable behavior (except to you and your friends).
And it fits that you take a verse and try to make it fit your argument. Yes, Christ said that following him (nothing about giving your daughter to a pervert)may cause angst in your family. He was talking about Christ, himself, you are now saying your prophet, your leader is now Christ? This is getting better each post…
Just like if you decided to follow Christ, and become a baptist, your family would disown you. No where does Christ say give up your family to a false prophet, or to any prophet.
Please don’t misuse the words of Christ, typical of Mormon’s, but don’t,it is offensive to Christians.
Imagine, in the year 2008 a father trying to convince another father that it is okay to give your 14 yr. old daughter up to someone who says they talk to God, no proof, just because they were next in line to be a “prophet”. I mean, each of your prophets were chosen by seniority right, not by any works, right? I don’t think I have to go to the bible to show what a nut case you are. The man with the most seniority gets my daughter…don’t you see how ridiculous this is?
Like I say, go to one of many holocaust museums, and get an education…the Chinese slaves building railroads lost more people “on the job” then Mormons did breaking the law and being hunted down.
Of course, blacks don’t count because they didn’t count as people when you guys were chased around the country.
And as far as persecution…how do you think the Irish felt during the prohibition.

right2bright on April 4, 2008 at 6:01 PM

You have had Mormons come to your door and convince you that your religion was wrong? Really, they came out and said that? Did they just want to talk to you or did they accuse you right off the bat?

Geronimo on April 4, 2008 at 1:43 PM

Oh my, no they came to my door to clean my house…don’t tell me, you aren’t Mormon, or you would know the process…but then if you work hard you could be a “district leader, zone leader, or AP”

right2bright on April 4, 2008 at 6:16 PM

LOL.

Some of you guy’s are REally funny. I came back to read some of the comments since I left and wow… some of the things you people come up with… lol.. “Hey, don’t worry about facts, just post it and someone will believe it”, seems to be the motto for a few here…lol .. but, y’know, um, at the same time it’s kinda sad too cuz there are people here trying to help you, but you don’t see it (or you see it with muddy eyeballs). No joke.

apacalyps on April 4, 2008 at 6:16 PM

Truthfully this was another revealing discussion – I find the so-called social conservatives (and not all of you guys) as reprehensible as the cultural progressives on the left. You are the same – you insist your view is the only view and all of us that think for ourselves should bow and scrape to you. When the Republican Party becomes a political party again and not a tool of elitists – both economically and socially I will consider joining, but for now there is no place for a true conservative who believes in what our founding fathers created.
You might spend some time actually understanding what Jesus stood for and who are founding fathers were (most went to Christian churches, but many were deists). You might find out how much against the very type of moralism that you want to install in our politics and in the Constitution they were.

unaffiliated on April 4, 2008 at 6:21 PM

Buy Danish on April 4, 2008 at 1:58 PM

I guess you can’t read Jewish State, meaning the generic Jewish population in the middle east, and meaning from before they became a country…must I always have to educate you…

right2bright on April 4, 2008 at 6:22 PM

You cannot condemn the LDS church without also condemning Christ’s teachings without being hypocritical.

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 2:16 PM

Ummmm, Christ said polygamy was alright? Christ never taught children should be given to adults, now Christ drank a little wine…and I am sure you and the rest of the Mormons do also.
Christ said not to follow false prophets, if I show that one of your prophets was false, you would deny your church? I have and you didn’t…
BTW, did Christ ever teach that your prophets are to be chosen by seniority? Or has that just been a run of luck for the Mormon church…that is the man with the most seniority just happened to be the best prophet.

right2bright on April 4, 2008 at 6:30 PM

Is it the fact there’s plenty of money to be made recycling arguments made in the 1830’s?

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 5:42 PM

It’s not so much made the profit but a stop-loss investment for keeping people away from the eeeevilll Mormons, lest they convert and take their money away from them.

As an aside, I don’t know what American History books Hollowpoint and R2B have been reading on persecution in this country’s history, but I would challenge them to name a religious group that these lovely pieces of legislation were meant for:

Morrill Anti-Bigamy Act (1862)
Poland Act (1874)
Edmunds Act (1882)
Edmunds-Tucker Act (1887)

Between those, the Utah War and not to mention the Smoot Hearings… Naw, they’ve been treated like everyone else. ;)

SkinnerVic on April 4, 2008 at 6:33 PM

Malan89: you are right, he does link to Hovind. I stand corrected!

*snort* ten years for tax fraud! That’s hysterical. SOunds like a Huckabee character for sure. On another note, many of the prominent Anti-Mormons, like Walter Martin, etc. have all sorts of credibility issues. I wonder what it is about the field of anti-mormonism that seems to attract the low-lifes? Is it the fact there’s plenty of money to be made recycling arguments made in the 1830’s?

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 5:42 PM

Anyone know where Fred Phelps stands on the LDS? I wonder if there is a pattern.

a capella on April 4, 2008 at 6:33 PM

You might spend some time actually understanding what Jesus stood for and who are founding fathers were (most went to Christian churches, but many were deists). You might find out how much against the very type of moralism that you want to install in our politics and in the Constitution they were.

unaffiliated on April 4, 2008 at 6:21 PM

Do you like Mike Huckabee? Sorry. Um. Who are you talking about?

apacalyps on April 4, 2008 at 6:34 PM

HA HA HA!!

Another Mormon bashing thread. Why is it that a couple of anti-Mormons can cause so much posting?

The argument is boring to me, but here is my 2 cents:

Right2Bright and Apacalyps are just angry at the world because they cant get ever get a date (I mean with the OPPOSITE sex).

By the way, isnt Apacalps the loser that was guaranteeing that the favorite candidate of the uneducated and dumb, Mike the liar Huckabee, was going to be our next president…even when it was obvious to all the republicans with at least average IQ that he had already lost?

Hey Apacalyps, how did that work out for you, fool?

You have no credibility dude.

Roger Waters on April 4, 2008 at 6:53 PM

You never think that the Mormons were breaking the law. Polygamy was against the law, and taking child brides are not acceptable behavior (except to you and your friends).

right2bright on April 4, 2008 at 6:01 PM

Let’s get your history correct, the Church went officially public with plural marriage in 1852 and TEN YEARS later it was made illegal by federal legislation. As for your continued inaccurate smears and screed of plural marriage being about sexual desires of 14 year olds, Joseph should have been the first in line… Was he?

SkinnerVic on April 4, 2008 at 6:55 PM

…now Christ drank a little wine…

right2bright on April 4, 2008 at 6:30 PM

Hey, right2bright… I’m on your side man, you seems like you have a good head on your shoulders. But, you might want to do a little more research on the subject of alcohol and the Bible. Jesus never drank wine and He didn’t make it either, otherwise He would have been contradicting Scripture which gives clear warning against drinking wine or other intoxicating drinks.

“Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!” Isaiah 5:11

“Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.” Proverbs 20:1

“Be not among winebibbers (drunkards; wine drinkers).” Proverbs 23:20

Proverbs 23:31 warns against even looking on the wine, lest it tempt one to drink:

“Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast. They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.” Proverbs 23:31-35

Save the links below and read them when you get time.

I recommend reading this article Alcohol And Christianity: Did Jesus Really Turn The Water Into Wine?

And watch this short video.

Anyways, maybe we’ll disagree on this issue, but I had to point it out to you to give an opportunity to decide for yourself. By the way, I use to drink and a bit more, but not anymore after learning what the Bible teaches on the subject.

apacalyps on April 4, 2008 at 6:58 PM

By the way, isnt Apacalps the loser that was guaranteeing that the favorite candidate of the uneducated and dumb, Mike the liar Huckabee, was going to be our next president…even when it was obvious to all the republicans with at least average IQ that he had already lost?

Hey Apacalyps, how did that work out for you, fool?

You have no credibility dude.

Roger Waters on April 4, 2008 at 6:53 PM

So, a thought crossed your mind? Must have been a long and lonely journey. You’re a perfect example Roger of my previous post where I said “people just make up their own facts and post them” irregardless whether or not they are true. I never said Mike Huckabee was going to be our next president, although I was hoping he would have been. You have your whole life to be a jerk….so why dont you take a day off.

apacalyps on April 4, 2008 at 7:05 PM

Here is a Pro-Romney for VP petition:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/romneyvp/index.html

Rusty Allen on April 4, 2008 at 7:07 PM

Apolypse,

If it wasnt you, it was some other moron who actually bought into that whole Huckabee and his dog-hanging son thing. Some jerk who was all into Matrix? Was that you? If so, you guaranteed Satan Schmuckabee would be the next president. If it wasnt you, well then I guess all you Huckster types all seem the same to me.

Look dude, it must be a drag having to spend your entire life on this blog putting down mormons but maybe somehow someway you can figure out a way to get a date so you can get out of your parents basement. Perhaps a blind girl?

What are you up to now, anyway? 2000 posts today or something?

I love these tough “keyboard warriors” who wouldnt dare say the crap they say behind their computer screens to somebody in person for fear of getting their head beat in.

Carry on.

Roger Waters on April 4, 2008 at 7:14 PM

To apacalyps and all the other Huckabee … STOP SAYING HUCKABEE WAS A CONSERVATIVE! He may hold social conservative positions, but he is far from conservative.

malan89 on April 4, 2008 at 4:11 PM

Huckabee was the only true conservative running in this Presidential election. There I said it. LOUD AND PROUD!!

Oh, and for some of you who may not know, or do know and are twisting my political position, I am not only a social conservative, but a social/eco/national security conservative… whatever that means. Put it this way…. I’m far right of the right. As are many Christians, yet there is this effort to shove them all under the social conservative umbrella which seems really wrong to me.

apacalyps on April 4, 2008 at 7:16 PM

apacalyps, you arent a christian…you CANT be.

too much hate oozing from your posts…I thought christians were all about loving your neighbor or something.

You should go do something nice to the people living in the trailer next to yours.

Roger Waters on April 4, 2008 at 7:19 PM

*sigh* Right2bright: When, exactly, did Christ address polygamy at all? He didn’t. Polygamy was not against the law, and the LDS church challenged it in court when it was made illegal. Do you plan on giving up any of your weapons the second the law to confiscate them is passed?

What I find disturbing is your absolute insistence that God cannot speak to man, or call a prophet nowadays. That’s what this ultimately comes down to, doesn’t it? If you thought that God was speaking to you through a living prophet, would you obey them? After all, it would be the commands of God, right?

You seem to think that such a thing is impossible: God cannot speak to man. I challenge that notion. Please throw out your Bible, for it contains the records of God speaking to man. If you say that God cannot speak to man anymore–then you worship a dead God, and your faith is vain. And I pity you, for you believe that God just doesn’t care enough to talk to you. Why else wouldn’t He speak?

What evidence have you that God hates us now, so much so that He cannot nor wishes to speak to us? If you should condemn the LDS church for believing that God speaks today, then please answer this question:

Why would God speak to His children in ancient days but not now? Why don’t we get blessed by God’s word for us? Do you think that God is indifferent? Do you think that He does not care? Why wouldn’t He speak and let us know the answer to such doctrinal questions as baptism, faith versus works, and other questions that divide Christianity in general? Not everyone can be right, you know. Seems to me God is needed more now than ever.

But of course, you cling to your dead book instead of the living Christ.

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 7:24 PM

That’s hilarious roger waters called Apacalyps hateful and not a Christian.

Of all the commentors on HA. Roger Waters is by far the most hateful person I’ve seen here.

Apacalyps is definitely a Christian, unlike you Roger.

Roger is furious that his false and satan inspired religion(mormonism) has been thoroughly exposed to him.

Why he doesn’t leave it, is the more important question he should be asking.

SaintOlaf on April 4, 2008 at 7:26 PM

SaintOlaf: Mormonism is “Satan inspired?” Heh. I love the demonstration of Christian Charity you are displaying here. It’s truly ironic the self-righteousness on display here. Who died and made you the judge?

I don’t think RogerWaters is LDS, btw

Vanceone on April 4, 2008 at 7:28 PM

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