The obligatory “man-cow hybrid created in lab” post
posted at 6:38 pm on April 2, 2008 by Allahpundit
No, they’re not going to implant it. They want to cultivate embryonic stem cells for study but they don’t want to waste human eggs on the project. Recipe: Take one cow’s egg, clean out its DNA, and insert human DNA instead. 99% man, 1% cow. Result: Awesome. Why is this necessary when they’ve already figured out how to turn adult human skin cells into embryonic stem cells? Good question. Thoroughness, it seems:
Experts are pursuing various ways to create stem cells. Several teams said last year they had re-programmed ordinary skin cells to act like human embryonic stem cells, but stressed that many different approaches need to continue before anyone fully understands how to regenerate human tissue and organs.
We had the big Hot Air stem-cell battle royal back before the mid-term elections, after Jim “The Passion of the Christ” Caviezel replied to Michael J. Fox’s ad for Claire McCaskill with a flourish of Aramaic. The issue turns, more or less, on whether you believe in ensoulment; if yes then you’re probably a flat no on the research and if no then you’re probably a qualified yes, limited by your own metric of when the embryo is sufficiently person-like that killing it crosses a line. My own line is drawn at whenever, per best scientific estimates, it’s conscious or able to feel pain. There’s no way to be sure, of course, but then there’s rarely any absolute way to be sure that an executed felon was guilty of the murder with which he was charged and yet most conservatives are okay with killing him. There are slippery slope issues too, but then that’s also the left’s argument vis-a-vis “torture” and conservatives don’t have much patience for that either. So let’s try a poll — admittedly an imperfect one — just to see how close HA hews to the standard “never, ever” right-wing position. Vote your (lack of) conscience!
Blowback
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Does Allah just not like conservatives?
Or is it just me reading into it a little bit more then I should?
upinak on April 2, 2008 at 6:43 PM
I’m just anticipating the counterarguments.
Allahpundit on April 2, 2008 at 6:45 PM
My postion pisses off both sides: allow research but zero federal dollars.
Cuffy Meigs on April 2, 2008 at 6:46 PM
He doesn’t like religious conservatives. That’s a fact.
Andy in Agoura Hills on April 2, 2008 at 6:47 PM
AP, this is just pathetic the way you posed everything. Go find a free hug.
ninjapirate on April 2, 2008 at 6:49 PM
No, it’s not a fact that I don’t like religious conservatives, as Michelle, Bryan Preston, Mary Katharine Ham or various other people could tell you.
Allahpundit on April 2, 2008 at 6:49 PM
understandable…
when does the poll end?
I can’t say I like religon forced down my throat either. But I won’t stand in the way of a good debate.
upinak on April 2, 2008 at 6:50 PM
There’s a lot of misconceptions about how stem cell research, and technologies derived from it, will go. As with any new field, there will be an initial few “dumb luck” applications (cures?) that scientists will stumble upon when they figure out how to use stem cells from embryonic tissues or those generated from adult tissues. However, none of that really answers the questions about why anything works and how differentiation and/or embryonic development actually happens. For that purpose, you still have to study the actual embryonic cells, in addition to all of the various other cell lines that you can make. This hybrid work is about gaining knowledge to direct future studies, not all for short-term gain.
Big S on April 2, 2008 at 6:50 PM
Yeah? That’s what comment sections are for. Sound off!
Allahpundit on April 2, 2008 at 6:50 PM
That’s what I meant by “thoroughness,” but well said.
Allahpundit on April 2, 2008 at 6:51 PM
Yeah, I think that’s probably where I am.
doubleplusundead on April 2, 2008 at 6:54 PM
Need more evidence that pulling code outta’ one critter and placing it in another, and then jump-starting the merger IS A BAD IDEA?
That is precisely how we ended up with Windows Vista.
I am reminded of that scene in young Frankenstein:
My collie says:
The movie would not have been as funny.
CyberCipher on April 2, 2008 at 6:55 PM
Then again, if they’ve already figured out a way to make the kind of stem cells they want, why friggin’ bother with this nonsense?
doubleplusundead on April 2, 2008 at 6:56 PM
Great…now humans can REALLY be linked to global warming re: methane from our hybrid poop!
SouthernGent on April 2, 2008 at 6:57 PM
Lots of thin-skinned types in here.
My position is about the same as Cuffy’s. I just don’t want to pay for it.
Slublog on April 2, 2008 at 6:58 PM
Isn’t it true that no cure for anything has ever come from emrbyonic stem-cell research so far?
That…and I thought I read not long ago that adult stem cells can be used as well as the embryonic ones…I mean, if there were actual benefits to date for this research, I would be for it. But I still say…if you have to draw a line at where life begins, you have to draw it at conception.
But this is one debate that seems will never end.
JetBoy on April 2, 2008 at 6:59 PM
The mystery of Rosie O’Donnell solved at last.
Mr. Bingley on April 2, 2008 at 7:00 PM
This isn’t my area of expertise, needless to say, but from what I understand it’s hard for researchers to raise the seed money for stuff like this. The huge government grants are needed, essentially, to jump-start it.
Allahpundit on April 2, 2008 at 7:00 PM
Here’s a fun question. If embryos can be intentionally split by scientists early in development (after a few days, as occurs in identical twins), and eventually brought to term as healthy individuals, when would those individuals get their souls? Before you say that this process is impossible in humans, note that it has already been done in other mammals.
Big S on April 2, 2008 at 7:01 PM
…and they better not start a zombie apocalypse with this crap either!
doubleplusundead on April 2, 2008 at 7:02 PM
Sweet.
Allahpundit on April 2, 2008 at 7:02 PM
And to keep it going. Returns on investment are often time-limited by patent law, and since the accumulation of knowledge often progresses so slowly, the pump must be primed often.
Big S on April 2, 2008 at 7:04 PM
If they are just interested in learning how stem cells develop, then why do they have to use human DNA?
Why do they want to introduce non human DNA? Does that make the resulting embryo non human? or does it introduce random mutation into human DNA?
Or are they attempting to create a human mutant female with four breasts?
rockhauler on April 2, 2008 at 7:05 PM
Er, too bad?
Seriously, there are lots of rich people who push for the money for these research projects, why not let them pony up the development costs?
doubleplusundead on April 2, 2008 at 7:06 PM
There’s money out there. Heck, a small percentage of a university endowment like Harvard’s could keep the research going for years.
Slublog on April 2, 2008 at 7:06 PM
When you try to reconcile actual science and reality with a fictional book written by a tribe of primitive sheepherders 2 millenium before electricity was discovered, you are bound to find a few conflicts. God got Pi wrong, too. :(
JayHaw Phrenzie on April 2, 2008 at 7:06 PM
“Who Wants To Live Forever?”
Aren’t we all terminal?
geckomon on April 2, 2008 at 7:06 PM
The morality is largely irrelevant in my opinion, since adult stem cells can be used without the moral debate, and it’s better to do so anyway because so far results tend to show that embryonic stem cells are more likely to develop tumors than adult ones.
Killing two birds with one stone.
MadisonConservative on April 2, 2008 at 7:06 PM
You don’t need a scientist to do that. That’s basically how it happens au natural. Maybe there are biologists here that can correct me (if I’m wrong), but I don’t think that the split (into twins) necessarily happens upon the very first cell division of the zygote. Can anyone verify this?
CyberCipher on April 2, 2008 at 7:08 PM
I have absolutely no problem using IPSC (irreducible pluripotent stem cells – the skin cell ones AP was describing) for research and treatments if possible. Nor do I have a problem with the cow/hybrid one.
I don’t see any moral arguments against taking skin cells and using them to conduct research. The cells, nor the DNA in the cow egg, can never become a human. No way, shape, or form possible. EVER.
If you find it objectionable to do the cow/IPSC approach, on a moral basis, where does one draw the line? Do you oppose blood transfusions, brain surgery, or other medical procedures and/or research.
That and who knows, maybe one day someone will get treated by a cow stem cell and an accidental side effect might be you can produce your own cow milk. What do you have against milk?
Blarg the Destroyer on April 2, 2008 at 7:08 PM
Bold statement, so here’s a couple of articles making the claim:
National Review Online
Washington Post
MadisonConservative on April 2, 2008 at 7:09 PM
Well I have always wanted bigger Udders!
upinak on April 2, 2008 at 7:12 PM
re: fed bucks, er too bad is right. I’d rather see some evil corporation mint money off any future patent than a bunch of university poindexters suckling at the gubmint teat.
Cuffy Meigs on April 2, 2008 at 7:15 PM
I’m no expert, but I wouldn’t think that the split happens at the very beginning of development. If it did, would there ever be conjoined twins?
PappaMac on April 2, 2008 at 7:15 PM
My background is in biochemistry, and you’re right that there is a pretty big (but not too big) range over which natural twinning can occur. However, if people are going to involve religion in this debate, there are an awful lot of sticky issues that will be presented by future advancements in medical technology. For example, in my question, if there are numerous ways to split an individual embryo, and a scientist picks one that results in two offspring, did God or the scientist decide which cells would end up with a “soul?” These are the kinds of questions that I wrestle over when trying to think about this kind of thing.
Big S on April 2, 2008 at 7:16 PM
As soon as that embryo split it had a soul. God placed a soul it in the second it split from the first embryo.
So to answer your question. God decided that both embryos will have souls.
offroadaz on April 2, 2008 at 7:23 PM
If we’ve learned anything from Sci-Fi it’s that someone will do it.
My money’s on the Brits, followed by Chinese six-assed-monkeys.
So really it doesn’t matter what the US does, unless we want to invade Britian.
Titus Flavius on April 2, 2008 at 7:30 PM
I thought “ensoulment” was something people used to argue for abortion while still claiming to be religious, .i.e., it’s okay to abort at so and so a juncture because the fetus doesn’t get a soul until…
frankj on April 2, 2008 at 7:31 PM
Why does the argument come down to ensoulment?. Alot of people don’t believe in souls and still don’t support stem cell research.
Libertarians for Life
AAPL
BklynNY on April 2, 2008 at 7:35 PM
I am against embryonic stem cell research. All other stem cell research is ok.
Zorro on April 2, 2008 at 7:40 PM
The difference is that an unborn child is innocent while the criminal deserves all the pain he can get.
That is common sense.
maynila on April 2, 2008 at 7:42 PM
An innocent man wrongly convicted deserves all the pain he can get?
Allahpundit on April 2, 2008 at 7:45 PM
I don’t believe in ensoulment but I still say no because I believe that human life begins when it has become a genetically whole human being (conception). I think when you wait till pain or consciousness come is ridiculous. If you knock someone unconscious and fill them with morphine are you then allowed to kill them?
libertytexan on April 2, 2008 at 7:47 PM
Furthermore the argument matters little since brilliant scientist are figuring ways around the conundrum.
libertytexan on April 2, 2008 at 7:48 PM
YES.
Slublog on April 2, 2008 at 7:49 PM
Simple. The initial cell is bless with a soul immediately, then as soon as the embryo is split, God (or Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy) blesses the split embryo with a bonus soul. You sound like a murderer. ;-)
tommylotto on April 2, 2008 at 7:49 PM
yay for Libertarians for Life, a great organization.
libertytexan on April 2, 2008 at 7:52 PM
I reiterate my trademark question: Why is it that all the research done by British doctors is degrading to humanity. Its not long before this kind of activity warrants some kind of intervention.
AbaddonsReign on April 2, 2008 at 7:54 PM
This is crap. There is plenty of non-government funded stem cell research going on. Much of the commercial research that I see is non-embryonic. But face the facts, there is plenty of non-government sources for grant research.
blink on April 2, 2008 at 7:54 PM
Wow, I think we share brain cells. Call me a Capitalist Pig but I say let the market decide on the controversial embryonic stem cell research. The Gov’t can work on the adult stem cell stuff.
Would 1% cow, 99% human milk taste more like cow milk or human milk?
NTWR on April 2, 2008 at 8:02 PM
totally.
treyevans on April 2, 2008 at 8:02 PM
As far as being Soul-empowered, the way I understand it, souls may enter the fetus at basically any time up until birth. When a soul departs the fetus (and it happens… the little spirit changes its mind, finds being united with a human form too confining, etc., it heads back home), that’s when a miscarriage occurs.
Issues such as the existence of a soul lie in the realm of the supernatural and theological and are frequently dismissed by skeptics, but science tends more towards the mystical these days with such developments as quantum entanglement and morphic resonance.
I tend to believe in such things as a sixth sense and ESP, and feel they can be explained by what is called, “Superluminal Negentropy” or a faster than light disseminating of order.
Mister Ghost on April 2, 2008 at 8:03 PM
Allah, the man wrongly convicted of murder was invariably guilty of something in his life. Therefore, he got what he deserved. Fake, but accurate!
Outlander on April 2, 2008 at 8:03 PM
LOL.
Especially if the man is a beta male…blogger…from NYC.
CyberCipher on April 2, 2008 at 8:06 PM
The Island of Doctor Moreau
Mooooo!
Chakra Hammer on April 2, 2008 at 8:14 PM
I’m just saying …. there is a vast difference between the liberal argument and the conservative point of view.
We don’t even kill convicted murderers for at least 20-25 years after a series of appeals. They are few and far between.
But for the unborn we massacre by the millions.
maynila on April 2, 2008 at 8:15 PM
:-)
maynila on April 2, 2008 at 8:19 PM
If I believe in ensoulment, then do I have to vote for James Brown?
ErikTheRed on April 2, 2008 at 8:26 PM
Yeah, but the vast majority of those would grow up to be liberals. That why the left needs open borders so badly – with abortion they’re killing off their replacements in the next generation and they need to replenish their base some how.
Personally, I’m with P.J. O’Rourke – I’ll support abortion, as long as we can make it retroactive.
ErikTheRed on April 2, 2008 at 8:28 PM
AP
I have a bone to pick with your argument if I may. You said:
I take issue with that statement because I don’t feel that it is a fair comparison. In your argument you equate a complete innocent with someone on death row that in almost every circumstance has been a burden to society prior to being sentenced to death.
In the addition, the frequency with which those “innocents” are killed in embryo as compared to the possibility of executing someone who may be innocent is simply not a reasonable analysis.
I hope this is taken in the spirit of debate with which it is offered.
Mormon Doc on April 2, 2008 at 8:28 PM
This is because actual progress is being made on cures with non-embryonic stem cells. The embryonic stuff is more about forcing the abortion debate than it is about science.
ErikTheRed on April 2, 2008 at 8:31 PM
A man-cow hybrid is not news… it was done years ago. Ask Eric Muller.
ScottMcC on April 2, 2008 at 8:34 PM
What is a soul or what is soul? Do I have a soul or am I a soul? Do I have a body or am I a body?
Kralizec on April 2, 2008 at 8:43 PM
Embryonic stem cell research? I’m never okay with that.
Stem cell research (the kind not involving destroyed embryos), however, I am perfectly okay with and encourage.
Gunhaver on April 2, 2008 at 8:48 PM
The reason that stem cells from your own skin cells are better than embryonic stem cells are many. Here are two:
1) you don’t have to destroy a human embryo
2) your own skin cells, turned into some other cell type (heart, brain, whatever) will be much less likely to be rejected by your body as foreign (graft vs. host)
studentpat on April 2, 2008 at 8:54 PM
When doing a double-slit experiment with photons, does God or man decide whether those photons behave as particles or as waves?
spmat on April 2, 2008 at 8:58 PM
Also, was it wrong for Mengele to do what he did?
spmat on April 2, 2008 at 8:59 PM
Is there some reason this was omitted on the Popes
new sin category!
Thou shall not play God?
Looks like Doctor Moreaus Island got moved to the
mainland!haha
canopfor on April 2, 2008 at 9:30 PM
I think that in the case of identical twins that there were two souls from the moment of conception, since the splitting fell within the parameters of God’s Plan.
Damian G. on April 2, 2008 at 11:47 PM
Chakra Hammer on April 2, 2008 at 8:14 PM
Chaos theory dictates that some of these have already escaped and reproduced.
/Goldblum
Uncle Pinky on April 3, 2008 at 12:12 AM
my main objection for the Embryonic stem-cell research is that if it gets allowed, there is a chance, down the road, that people can start to sell their
babies that looked like it when through a blenderaborted fetus..others are the obvious, life at conception..
other types of stem cell, fine, go ahead.. study any part of the body you want if it doesn’t kill someone..
DaveC on April 3, 2008 at 1:09 AM
Let me know when Man-Bear-Pig is in the works..
DaveC on April 3, 2008 at 1:17 AM
Because they have bills to pay.
peacenprosperity on April 3, 2008 at 8:36 AM
Cowboy
Close to his MOOOOTHER
Udder distruction
CynicalOptimist on April 3, 2008 at 9:01 AM
“My postion pisses off both sides: allow research but zero federal dollars.”
That is where we are at present and I’m OK with that. If private investors want to pursue a research project that is long on promises but pathetically low on results, I say fine, waste your money. One man’s loss is another man’s gain. But don’t waste tax dollars on a program that raises serious ethical concerns AND holds little hope for an eventual benefit (over adult stem cell research).
If embryonic stem cell reseaech holds great promise as advocates claim, where are all the greedy capitalists eager to make fortunes on this new technology? Perhaps they know something the advocates aren’t telling us.
drewas on April 3, 2008 at 9:22 AM
It boils down to ensoulment, AP? Then there should be no problem with embryonic stem cell research, as souls are immortal.
Krydor on April 3, 2008 at 9:45 AM
I’d say no, but at least that person was given a chance in court, likely more than one chance since we’re talking about the death penalty.
I’m not saying I feel alright about it, but I feel better about that person’s pain than I do a baby’s pain. And as you already noted, at least in this area of science we have the option of using something that has no moral issues attached.
First, let’s assume that’s exactly what we’re doing. That religious people base their lives on complete fiction.
So what. How does that change anything. You’re incapable of convincing us otherwise, so this inflammatory rhetoric serves no purpose other than showing the rest of us who the trolls in this group are.
And even if we’re all insane (the vast majority of the population), you still have to live in a world where we exist and have the right to vote. You can either get over it or not, but you only have control over yourself. So you can either continue being a jackass and get no respect from people you otherwise agree with on most issues, or you can continue in this vein bothering only yourself with your worthless observations on how you believe the world functions.
Esthier on April 3, 2008 at 12:33 PM
Paper-thin! Like this one:
By the way JayHaw, the Quran was written much later, and by camel-jockies.
labrat on April 3, 2008 at 1:00 PM
well said.
non-embryonic stem cell research is okay by me.
if it’s not going to be a distinct human at some point in its development cycle, then there’s no problem.
I definitely need to read more on this issue.
Is government funding necessary?
There are times, like wartime, when technology is advanced by government.
For most cases, I’m inclined to believe that government’s role is to get out of the way and encourage investment.
p.s. one of these days I’ll have to figure out how to insert a linefeed into this comment form. This crap is hard to read (hopefully that’s just the preview).
hatespam on April 3, 2008 at 5:06 PM