Since they themselves were aristocrats and we had no formal definition of our plan to govern they would never have expected us to form a republic and they would not have supported us if we made that plain.

dogsoldier on March 27, 2008 at 10:05 AM

When one thinks about it, the French participation in our revolt against English rule (and taxation) led to the demise of the ancien regime in France a few short years after the Treaty of Paris was signed there, then to the rise and fall of Napoleon Bonaparte. That ol’ ‘rule of unintended consequences’.

Since they themselves were aristocrats and we had no formal definition of our plan to govern they would never have expected us to form a republic and they would not have supported us if we made that plain.

Tony737: Thanks for the book tip,I will check
it out.

Tom_Shipley on March 26, 2008 at 8:11 AM

Oops, you forget we went to Afghanistan before Iraq and the media were telling us how we can’t win there because those Russians where in a quagmire. Yep, good ole Ted was telling us we’d be in a quagmire in Afghanistan before he told us we’d be in a quagmire in Iraq. It’s funny how they don’t talk about Afghanistan and Iraq the way they did then.

Everyday, every month, every year, the bar by which Leftist gauge success is changed and inevitably it’s always in the direction that states, “the U.S. of A. is participating in wars they cannot win.” The definition of winning in Iraq is not that we turn them into peace-loving Tibetians but that they contain their hatred within their boundaries and don’t impact the rest of the world with their idiocy. As soon as those people can pull their head out of their arses and stop agreeing with defeatist media types telling them that the U.S. soldier is their problem and turn their focus to creating a viable government then we’ll take our leave.

………………

1. Huh, that’s funny, I thought Iraq was a secular country where Christianity thrived prior to the invasion and only since the invasion have the radical Islamic elements began to throw their weight around… silly me.

………………

2. But we have no way of knowing if our presence in Iraq for 50 or a 100 or a 1,000 years will have a stabalizing affect. This isn’t a marathon where good training and a strong will can propel you to the end. There are critical elements involved that we have absolutely zero control over.

………………

3. You know what? That bring wall over there is hard, but since you’re a real man, I bet you can bang your head against it until it falls over.

………….

Tom_Shipley on March 26, 2008 at 11:24 AM

………….

4. If you read my post, I do praise Bellavia. And I do have faith in our country and military.

………….

5. I also am smart enought to know we can make bad decisions, and I think we did when we decided to invade Iraq.

………….

6. But don’t sit here and tell me I’m dishonor our soldiers or our fallen soldiers by questioning whether it was a good idea to invade Iraq or by stating that the US military can bring stability to Iraq. ‘Cause it’s simply not the case.

Tom_Shipley on March 26, 2008 at 11:30 AM

………….

That should be “stating that the US military can bring stability to Iraq…” and should really be “the US military ALONE can bring stability to Iraq.”

7. Stability will come when Iraqis come to a consensus on what type of government they want. The US military cannot will that reconciliation to happen.

Tom_Shipley on March 26, 2008 at 11:36 AM

1. Guess you were wrong then and wrong now, ain’t ya? Been listening to the newspapers who told ya that, did ya? Now who is stupid to believe ANY Muslim country is secular? They’re Muslim. It is a way of life, and is absolutely their only allowed way to govern. The two (religion and government) are inseparable according to “Muslim law”

2. Really? News to me and Emperor Hirohito, Adolf Hitler, the Carthaginians, the North Koreans, and the Soviet Union. War absolutely is a marathon where the contest goes to the country with the most strength, endurance and staying power. You think a bunch of idiots who think American soldiers’ shatterproof sunglasses are really X ray specs designed to look under Muslim womens’ clothes are smarter, stronger, and more tenacious than the American people and their will? How about we just hang around long enough to civilize them for the rest of the world before they get a hold of nuclear weapons and make everyone’s life miserable? Don’t worry. You don’t have to lift a finger. Tougher Men than you will be in charge.

3. Been there, done that. Got the Fitness Reports to prove it. See Berlin Wall and collapse of the Soviet Union.

4. Then you have a funny way of showing it.

5. Your intelligence is being questioned by the US military and Ambassador Crocker. Opinions are like assh*les. Everybody’s got one and they all stink. Yours are no exception.

6. By your comments, the shoe fits. Now you wear it.

7. The Iraqis voted for their government in 2005. Bad people are trying to thwart that decision. I guess you would rather the evil, anti-American side, opposed to the Iraqi voters will, should be allowed to prevail because “it is too hard”, “the Iraqis haven’t decided what kind of government they want”? What was the 2005 election if not that? …..The Girl Scouts are looking for you, Tommy Girl.

Subsunk out

Tom Shipley, who’s never met a soldier he didn’t despise and wish dead (including the Commander in Chief),

Or David Bellavia. Read his book. Good stuff, Maynard.

Mr. Shipley, I hope you meet your end by engaging a beady-browed terrorist who’s burst into your home intent on taking that which is most valuable to you (which we know for sure is neither honesty nor courage), and that a warrior like Mr. Bellavia doesn’t have to risk his life saving your unworthy hide.

Did I mention his book is good?

Tom_Shipley on March 26, 2008 at 8:11 AM
It’s about using our Army is situations that can be “won”. Iraq can’t be won militarily. Everyone knows this.

Tom,

WWII was the last time two global powers would take each other on in a direct confrontation that resulted in a clear military victory. All the wars now are going to look like Korea, Vietnam, or Kosovo. A military operation followed by counterinsurgency followed by a measure of nation-building. The presence of non-state actors (terrorists) means a lot of nation-building.

What do you want us to do? We sanctioned Saddam and threw a dozen UN resolutions at him. He didn’t change. He fired on our warplanes and kicked UN inspectors out. He secretly usurped the Oil-for-food program, and our European “friends” were licking their chops in anticipation of the sanctions being lifted. At some point, you have to say “enough is enough” with a guy like Saddam. What would you have done, thrown you hands in the air and said “I tried” before just walking away?

Tom_Shipley on March 26, 2008 at 11:24 AM
But we have no way of knowing if our presence in Iraq for 50 or a 100 or a 1,000 years will have a stabalizing affect.

We didn’t know whether stationing troops in Germany, Japan, and Korea would work, either. Would you have preferred we didn’t do that? It worked there, we should try it here. That’s about as close to a crystal ball as you’re going to get when it comes to military operations.

Tom_Shipley on March 26, 2008 at 11:57 AM
The problem with what’s going on right now in Iraq is that, it too, is an act of American will.

The democracy in Japan could be classified as an act of American will. Douglas MacArthur pretty much wrote their constitution. That’s worked out pretty well for us and them, don’t you think?

I believe there’s a lot of mistrust among middle easterners toward westerners. I think that if we’re successful in Iraq and it becomes a democracy, with freedom, security, and prosperity, you will see a lot of these people asking us for our help. Imagine a petition signed by a couple million Iranians begging the US to invade.

The Liberation of Karmah, Part I

http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/03/the-liberation.php

KARMAH, IRAQ – Just beyond the outskirts of Fallujah lies the terror-wracked city of Karmah. While you may not have heard of this small city of 35,000 people, American soldiers and Marines who served in Anbar Province know it as a terrifying place of oppression, death, and destruction. “It was much worse than Fallujah” said more than a dozen Marines who were themselves based in Fallujah.
“Karmah was so important to the insurgency because we’ve got Baghdad right there,” Lieutenant Andrew Macak told me. “This is part of the periphery of Baghdad. At the same time, it is part of the periphery of Fallujah.”

While the liberal idiots here are fighting the war on
Bush,brave Soldiers like Bellavia are fighting the real
enemy,THE TERRORIST,and bringing FREEDOM to millions.

War Critics Decry Interminable And Unwinnable Conflict

http://www.transterrestrial.com/archives/2008/03/war_critics_dec.html

January 15th, 1945
WASHINGTON (Routers) With the “Allied” forces continuing to be bogged down in the Ardennes Forest, many are questioning Roosevelt administration war policies, the unreasonable length of the war, and even whether or not it can be won.

War Unwinnable In Face Of Renewed German Offensive
December 17th, 1944

http://www.transterrestrial.com/archives/004711.html

PARIS (Routers) Long-time critics of the Roosevelt administration declared themselves vindicated today, as the Germans began a renewed offensive yesterday in the Ardennes Forest in Belgium, opening a huge hole in the “Allied” lines and throwing back troops for miles, with previously unimaginable US casualties.

Administration Split On Europe Invasion
April 3, 1944

WASHINGTON DC (Routers) Fissures are starting to appear in the formerly united front within the Roosevelt administration on the upcoming decision of whether, where and how to invade Europe. Some influential voices within both the Democrat and Republican parties are starting to question the wisdom of toppling Adolf Hitler’s regime, and potentially destabilizing much of the region.
“It’s one thing to liberate France and northwestern Europe, and teach the Germans a lesson, but invading a sovereign country and overthrowing its democratically-elected ruler would require a great deal more justification,” said one well-connected former State Department official. “The President just hasn’t made the case to the American people.”

This article shows we are making significant progress also:

Al Qaeda Recruiter Blues

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htatrit/articles/20080323.aspx

March 23, 2008: The sharp drop in suicide bombings in Iraq is partly due to the decline in foreign al Qaeda volunteers coming into Iraq.

But to some, surrender is the only option.

It is hilarious to watch liberals like shipley continue to
tell us liberating 25 million people from a genocidal terrorist dictator is such a mistake because of what they
“think” will happen.

That liberal crystal ball told us that Sunni and Shia would
never vote in elections or abide by them.

They were wrong

That liberal crystal ball told us that Sunni and Shia would
never get along and work together.

They were wrong

That liberal crystal ball told us the surge would not work
and we would never be able to stop the “civil war” in Iraq.

They were wrong

That liberal crystal ball stood on the senate floor and
announced in front of their 19% democratic lead congress that the war in Iraq”was lost”.

They were wrong

That liberal crystal ball told us we would never be able to bring down the violence and work towards reconciliation between Sunni,Shia,and the Kurds.

They were wrong

That liberal crystal ball said that the government in Iraq
was Bush’s puppet regime and would never make any political
reconciliation.

They were wrong.

I don’t remember that crystal ball showing the success the
American/Iraqi Soldiers working together would have in routing Al-Qaeda to a small area in Diayali providence where
they will soon be finished off.

I don’t remember that crystal ball showing Maliki and American forces working together to route out Sader’s milita.

Shipley and the sheep he herds with have moved the goalposts in Iraq so much that they can’t even keep up with
their own defeatism.
They will never vote or honor the results of one
Then
There is too much violence,we have to surrender.
Then
The Sunni and Shia will never get along.We have to surrender.
Then
The Iraqis will never stand up for themselves while we
are there.We have to surrender.
Then
There is no political reconciliation.We have to surrender.
Then
The war is to expensive………

I am still waiting for these super intelligent liberals
to show us how to fight the War on Terror for free and
without causalities.

Here are some good points made on Iraq recently:

President Bush, March 19,2008 @ the Pentagon

The surge has done more than turn the situation in Iraq around — it has opened the door to a major strategic victory in the broader war on terror. For the terrorists, Iraq was supposed to be the place where al Qaeda rallied Arab masses to drive America out. Instead, Iraq has become the place where Arabs joined with Americans to drive al Qaeda out. In Iraq, we are witnessing the first large-scale Arab uprising against Osama bin Laden, his grim ideology, and his murderous network. And the significance of this development cannot be overstated.

What our troops found in Iraq following Saddam’s removal was horrifying. They uncovered children’s prisons, and torture chambers, and rape rooms where Iraqi women were violated in front of their families. They found videos showing regime thugs mutilating Iraqis deemed disloyal to Saddam. And across the Iraqi countryside they uncovered mass graves of thousands executed by the regime.
Because we acted, Saddam Hussein no longer fills fields with the remains of innocent men, women and children. Because we acted, Saddam’s torture chambers and rape rooms and children’s prisons have been closed for good. Because we acted, Saddam’s regime is no longer invading its neighbors or attacking them with chemical weapons and ballistic missiles. Because we acted, Saddam’s regime is no longer paying the families of suicide bombers in the Holy Land. Because we acted, Saddam’s regime is no longer shooting at American and British aircraft patrolling the no-fly zones and defying the will of the United Nations. Because we acted, the world is better and United States of America is safer.

Political Progress Is Taking Place In Iraq:

Millions of Iraqis have risked their lives to secure a democratic future for their nation, and America will not abandon them in their time of need. The vast majority of Iraq’s citizens want to live in peace, and they are showing their courage every day.
In October 2005, Iraqi voters approved a new permanent constitution.
In December 2005, nearly 12 million Iraqis braved car bombers and assassins to choose a permanent government in free elections under the new constitution.
On February 3, 2008, Iraq’s Presidency Council issued the Accountability and Justice Law, which will allow thousands of former Ba’athists to return to government jobs.
On February 13, 2008, the Council of Representatives passed two key pieces of legislation.
Amnesty Law:
The Government of Iraq’s General Amnesty Law represents a benchmark in facilitating political reconciliation and the rule of law in Iraq. The General Amnesty Law addresses the scope of eligibility for amnesty for Iraqis in Iraqi detention facilities, whether they have been brought to trial or not. The law exempts from this amnesty those who have committed specific serious crimes, such as premeditated murder or kidnapping, and those who are subject to the death penalty.
Fiscal Budget:
The $48 billion Iraqi budget represents a 17 percent increase in spending over last year’s budget, with a 23 percent increase in security expenditures. Capital funds allocated to the 15 provinces will increase over 50 percent, from $2.1 billion to $3.3 billion, reflecting the improved budget execution performance by provinces in 2007.
The Iraqi government passed a pension law in late 2007.
The central government of Iraq continues to distribute oil revenue to provinces, even though the proposed oil law is still being negotiated.
The central government of Iraq reached its 2007 target of $30.2 billion in budget revenue one month before the end of the year.
The Government of Iraq recently completed early repayment of its outstanding obligations to the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and reached a new Stand-By Arrangement with the IMF.
Iraq’s presidential council signed off Wednesday on a measure paving the way for provincial elections by the fall, a major step toward easing sectarian rifts as the nation marks the fifth anniversary of the war.
March 19,2008

There’s one BIG difference… France didn’t invade the colonies and declare the US was going to be an aristocracy.

We asked them for help… and they did help. But the American revolution was an act of American will. The problem with what’s going on right now in Iraq is that, it too, is an act of American will.

Shipley, I’m sure the people of France said much the same nonsense you do when confronted with the bankrupting expense for their participation in the American revolution. LOL it took us eleven years to get our constitution done.

Thanks to the French we’re free. For your information no political solution is possible in Iraq until military victory is achieved and it CAN be achieved. (History repeats this lesson over and over.

Victory will not occur on YOUR timetable. Informed people know, by virtue of their education (military history) that it takes approximately ten years to defeat an insurgency, unless one employs the brutal tactics of the ancient Romans.

Or even American tactics of WWII. Anyway, France’s investment in us paid off well. Our investment in Afghanistan and Iraq will too. I believe that with such certainty that if I were able to reenlist and go there myself, I would gladly do it.

That should be “stating that the US military can bring stability to Iraq…” and should really be “the US military ALONE can bring stability to Iraq.”

Stability will come when Iraqis come to a consensus on what type of government they want. The US military cannot will that reconciliation to happen.

If you read my post, I do praise Bellavia. And I do have faith in our country and military.

I also am smart enought to know we can make bad decisions, and I think we did when we decided to invade Iraq.

But don’t sit here and tell me I’m dishonor our soldiers or our fallen soldiers by questioning whether it was a good idea to invade Iraq or by stating that the US military can bring stability to Iraq. ‘Cause it’s simply not the case.

Huh, that’s funny, I thought Iraq was a secular country where Christianity thrived prior to the invasion and only since the invasion have the radical Islamic elements began to throw their weight around… silly me.

If it takes 50 yrs to stabilize Iraq, and the world is left with a major Ally to the US and Democracy there

But we have no way of knowing if our presence in Iraq for 50 or a 100 or a 1,000 years will have a stabalizing affect. This isn’t a marathon where good training and a strong will can propel you to the end. There are critical elements involved that we have absolutely zero control over.

Real Men aren’t deterred because something is hard.

You know what? That bring wall over there is hard, but since you’re a real man, I bet you can bang your head against it until it falls over.

You are disrespectful and dishonest when you come here and take issue with this post.

How so?

Problem is, Iraq is and never was the US army being defeated or vitorious… no one believed the Iraqi army would defeat us. No one thinks the insurgency or al Qaeda can defeat the US army.

It’s about using our Army is situations that can be “won”. Iraq can’t be won militarily. Everyone knows this. Even if we “stabalize” the country to 50 attacks a day, who knows what will happen if when we leave? And I don’t know that saying 100 years will allow us to leave with peace in our wake.

So, I respect this guy for what he’s done for our country. And his faith in the US military. I share that same faith. The world would be a wonderful place if you could get a bunch of David Bellavias and send them to Iraq and fix it. But that’s not the world we live in.

If we eventually leave Iraq and it errupts into a civil war or becomes another Iran, I won’t think the US military was defeated. I’ll think our government failed to know what the hell it was doing by going into Iraq, on a conceptual and planning level.

Tom_Shipley on March 26, 2008 at 8:11 AM

Our government doesn’t read the future through a crystal ball, like you do Tommy Girl. If the solution to the radical ideology (and yes, the religious tenets which have been misused to justify that ideology) was easy, the Girl Scouts would have done it. It’s not. 1.4 BILLION people on this planet believe their religion is the only correct religion there is. 10% (or 20% if you believe their own polls) of them want to kill us through any means possible because they feel it is justified by the Koran and the A’hadith. They have believed this for over 50 years.

And you expect that to change overnight in Iraq simply by saying “the problem can only be solved by other than military means.” As has been eloquently pointed out by Ambassador Crocker and GEN Petraeus, a military solution is only a partial solution…but it is most certainly a necessary part of the solution.

Expecting the Iraqis to work things out in a manner satisfactory to changing Islam without the US military there is just as stupid as expecting there to only be a military solution to the conflict and the tenets which started this entire worldwide war… Wahaabi Islam.

The fact that the conflict and heartache in Iraq is bloody, disgustingly evil, and stubbornly fought by terrorists and insurgents who have only their own power in mind, and look to enslave the Iraqi people to their Wahabbist ways doesn’t make it unnecessary, or even unjust or illegal (or fattening either Tommy Girl).

It just means that Men who won’t be dissuaded from providing Peace, Justice, and Security to 25 million people who desperately need it, and would be forever grateful to America if they got it, are needed to see this through to completion. If it takes 50 yrs to stabilize Iraq, and the world is left with a major Ally to the US and Democracy there, then even the loss of 800 men a year and 100 Billion dollars a yr, should be worth it to the 300+ million Americans who live here, and generate $4 TRILLION dollars in GDP every yr. For 1% of our treasure and 800 of the finest young Men’s lives, and Noble Families’ children, given in defense of 300+ million Americans who can’t even remember one single young Man’s name, isn’t that worth doing?

Isn’t the defense of your miserable life by the David Bellavia’s of this country worth just honoring their sacrifice by not naming their Death’s a mistake, a misguided adventure for oil, an illegal Bushco shenanigan to line the pockets of Corporate America? Real Men are doing a hard job on your behalf, changing the face of Islam by their personal example in Iraq. Showing Iraqis how to live in a civilized manner while respecting their neighbors and providing the example of good people from far across the ocean who never started this war, but aim to finish it forever, in their favor. Men who deserve more respect than saying, “there is no solution in Iraq” which justifies their monumental efforts on our behalf.

I’m glad I don’t live in the same country you do, sir. In my country, we honor our dead, we praise our soldiers, and we have faith in the essential goodness and nobility of American culture and the American people. And just because a problem is very difficult, we don’t shy away from getting it solved if it means the lives of our citizens will be forfeit.

Say whatever you wish. You are disrespectful and dishonest when you come here and take issue with this post. Why don’t you go join the Girl Scouts and make things work the way you say they do. Because if it is hopeless to evern try, then maybe we should all just roll over and die before the Islamic Juggernaut “which is impossible to oppose in any way” rolls right over us and cuts our heads off for being infidels.

Real Men aren’t deterred because something is hard. We do these things not because they are easy. We do these things because they are hard, but they must be done to provide a better future for our kids, our families, and our country. Great Democrats once thought that way. Now only Dhimmicrats remain.

Subsunk

If ya liked that one, check out “We Were One”. Almost the entire book is room by room fighting in Fallujah, U.S. Marines vs. jihadis on heroine. Kick azz book!

I did notice in the book that it was terrorist that were targeting and killing civilians and our Soldiers,not President Bush.

Need for as many liberals as possible to read this book since they appear to be extremely “confused” on this point.

I will be up in DC with the gatheringofeagles.org when Petraeus testifies and to support our troops bravery,sacrifice,and their mission.Join us if you can.

Bellavia is a great example of the American Soldier and
we would not have the free society that we enjoy without their leadership.

No Surrender.

I emember it clearly, being in the Service at the time. The so-called ‘military experts’ on CNN expected 200,000 Americans killed, and said it’ll take 2 years to win the war. I was just a two stripe nobody but I said to the moron on TV (as if he could hear me) “No, idiot, we’ll lose about 200 troops, and it’ll take 2 MONTHS.” Who was closer? And yes, they told us about the “elite” republican gaurd, every day. Even for Gulf War 2, they STILL kept tellin’ us about how the Gaurd was gonna kick our azzes. I think it was just wishful thinkin’.

I was referring to The Iraq War II.

And even back in Desert Storm, no one thought we would be defeated by the Iraqi army. People may have overestimated the Imperial Guard (or whatever they were called), but I don’t anyone thought we would fail to evict the Iraqi army from Kuwait.

CanOp, check out his book ‘House to House’, it’s pretty good, especially when he goes all Terminator on a house full of jihadis!

Through email I found out that Marcus Luttrell (’Lone Survivor’) will also be there, but unfortunatly Marco Martinez (’Hard Corps’) will not. Marco was the one I most wanted to meet. He’s been at other VFF rallies but for some reason he won’t be at the one in D.C. Check out his book my fellow otHeads, it kicks azz!