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Are you under the impression that Jesus did preach against the Torah? His own words:

Mat 5:17-20
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

theregoestheneighborhood on March 24, 2008 at 11:19 PM

So then, have you put on Tefilin Today? How about Tzitzit? Keeping the meat and dairy separate in your kitchen now? Cooking with only kosher certified food? Observing the laws of not speaking Lashon Harah? Handling your Ma’aser money for charity correctly? Observing Hilchot Nidah? How about Sabbath on Saturday and strict obserance not to violate any of the 39 Melachot? When was the last time you heard Shofar on Rosh Hashannah, fasted on Yom Kippur, kept kosher le’Pessach, ate and slept in a Sucah on Sucot, made the correct blessings before and after eating every type of (kosher) food in this world, didn’t worship an idolatous image (bummer!) and – finally – are many of you guys uncircumcised or are you just happy to see me?

I’m sorry if some of the Hebrew terminology above is completely unknown to you but who are you fooling?! With the exception of new-fangled messianic Jesus cults trying to revive Jesus’ long and gone original Judeo-Christians, just one of many Jewish break-away cults at the time, Christians of every variety have rejected observing the Torah’s commandments since the word Chritsianity came into popular use.

Now, what parts of Romans and Corinthians would you like me to quote to show how another Jewish faker named Saul/Paul threw the whole Torah out the front door in order to appeal – with great success – to the ignorant non-Jewish pagan masses?

Shy Guy on March 25, 2008 at 12:45 AM

Impressive little rant. I’m half-minded to salute.

Unfortunately, while you do a great job of making the point that I don’t follow the Old Testament laws, the point you make is fairly irrelevant. Jesus preached to Jews. He never preached against the Torah. The first Christians were Jews, who were still observant, even though they believed Jesus was the Messiah. The man widely recognized as the pastor of the church at Jerusalem was called, “James the Just,” largely because he meticulously kept the law and taught others the same.

It was the Gentiles being added to the church who were not required to keep the Jewish laws, the premise being that the law was given to the Jews specifically. Of course, Gentile Christians far outnumbered Jewish Christians, as you might expect.

That said, when was the last time you offered a sacrifice at the Jewish temple in Jerusalem? Surely it troubles you that you can’t keep the law you treasure in something as basic as the required sacrifices. It’s almost like God closed the door.

Now, I fully expect that one day the temple in Jerusalem will be restored. You may or may not agree with that. I also fully expect that one day all of Israel will accept Jesus as the Messiah. I seriously doubt you will agree with that.

Regardless, after seeing Israel restored as a nation, anything is possible.

Are you under the impression that Jesus did preach against the Torah? His own words:

Mat 5:17-20
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

theregoestheneighborhood on March 24, 2008 at 11:19 PM

So then, have you put on Tefilin Today? How about Tzitzit? Keeping the meat and dairy separate in your kitchen now? Cooking with only kosher certified food? Observing the laws of not speaking Lashon Harah? Handling your Ma’aser money for charity correctly? Observing Hilchot Nidah? How about Sabbath on Saturday and strict obserance not to violate any of the 39 Melachot? When was the last time you heard Shofar on Rosh Hashannah, fasted on Yom Kippur, kept kosher le’Pessach, ate and slept in a Sucah on Sucot, made the correct blessings before and after eating every type of (kosher) food in this world, didn’t worship an idolatous image (bummer!) and – finally – are many of you guys uncircumcised or are you just happy to see me?

I’m sorry if some of the Hebrew terminology above is completely unknown to you but who are you fooling?! With the exception of new-fangled messianic Jesus cults trying to revive Jesus’ long and gone original Judeo-Christians, just one of many Jewish break-away cults at the time, Christians of every variety have rejected observing the Torah’s commandments since the word Chritsianity came into popular use.

Now, what parts of Romans and Corinthians would you like me to quote to show how another Jewish faker named Saul/Paul threw the whole Torah out the front door in order to appeal – with great success – to the ignorant non-Jewish pagan masses?

hooray! I love how the colouring of eggs and the bunnies and candy have everything to do with the story of jesus. So did jesus come before the egg was laid by the bunny??! Or did he preceed the bunny and the eggs? It’s a grand paradox!!

easter makes no damned sense.

drift on March 24, 2008 at 10:56 AM

Eggs: symbol of new life
Bunnies: symbol of fertility
Easter: happens in the spring

What does it have to do with Christ? Nothing.

Easter was originally a pagan holiday focused on spring, renewal, fertility, and the promise of new life. It happened to take place roughly around the same time of year as the Jewish passover, and people have been getting the two mixed up for millennia.

So why do we still do it today? There was a move around the 4th century or so by the Catholic church to replace the old pagan holidays with new “Christian” ones. (BTW, this is also apparently why Christmas is celebrated on Dec 25th now. No text anywhere records the actual date of the birth of Christ.) The resurrection happening shortly after passover, and both having at least an implication of new life, made that replacement very easy. The colored eggs and bunnies have just been carried on ever since.

So if you’re a Christian and a purist — and some are — you might well refuse to have anything to do with colored eggs or rabbits around Easter. I think most Christians, even after they realize it has nothing to do with Christ, still see nothing wrong with the colored eggs, the Easter egg hunt, the rabbits, etc.

… The Prophets never preached against the Torah…
….
Apparently you CAN just make things up.
….
Shy Guy on March 24, 2008 at 3:53 AM

Are you under the impression that Jesus did preach against the Torah? His own words:

Mat 5:17-20
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Squid shark I see you still haven’t come around yet…I’m praying for you.

Remember… there’s almost 400 prophecies in your Bible that prove Jesus Christ is the Messiah.

Thank God it is true….there is no salvation without Jesus.

There are 400 prophecies in my bible which only proves one thing, that Jesus’ followers had a copy of the Bible when they were writing his story later.

In the OT book of Isaiah, YAWYEH challenged the other gods to come forth, make them selves known. Where was the Axtec “god” then, if he were real? There was only silence.

abcurtis on March 24, 2008 at 1:38 PM

Jesus didn’t show up, either. And the nation who had received the Torah at Sinai and taught and obeyed G-d’s commandments to them throught all times, and every one of their prophets, Isaiah included, wouldn’t have given Jesus the time of day.

If you’re going to quote Isaiah, let’s go the full monty:

Isaiah 40:18

. . . and My honor I will not give to another.

And that’s just Isaiah!

Was the Aztec god Quetzalcoatl born of the virgin Coatlicue, or was he actually the son of Xochiquetzal and Mixcoatl? That is your decision to make – you have to choose abcurtis!

Ok, I can choose – no problem. The Axtec god is a false man made god, made in the image of something man has seen. He was never born, therefore never lived, certainly never died and resurrected. If he was revealed to man by some super natural being that being was Satan. He’s good at deceiving. There is no eyewitness account written or otherwise that anybody ever saw The Aztec god move or speak, or even create anything. As a god, he certainly should have been able to create something out of nothingness. He never changed water to wine, he never brought the dead to life. And he is still dead. In the OT book of Isaiah, YAWYEH challenged the other gods to come forth, make them selves known. Where was the Axtec “god” then, if he were real? There was only silence.
On the other hand I am made by my God in the image of my God. In the case of Jesus and His miracles, His death and Resurrection, eye witness after eye witness wrote and attest to the fact that these things did happen. And Jesus is still alive. Stephen did see him standing at the right hand of God, so there’s an eye witness for you.
As to how the apostles died, I did get off on the wrong foot. But the fact remains they died. And in none of their writings did they ever repudiate anything they ever said or taught about Jesus. There were no death bed confessions. And yeah, I know, some co-conspirator could have destroyed them. And the sky could fall too, but what’s the likely-hood of that?

So why cant you decide which of the Big “L’s” Jesus is?

Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” – Revelation 14:9-11 (NASB)

Not every Christian believes that. The way I read the Scripture, the only ones who will suffer forever are the Beast, the False Prophet, & the Devil.
jgapinoy on March 23, 2008 at 11:52 PM

“The way I read Scripture”? Brother, perhaps you should stop reading scripture your way and consider that you should seek to understand what God clearly says.

40″The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me. 41″Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, – Matthew 25:40-42 (NIV)

I do not remember who once said this: Heaven is the presence of God with a mediator. Hell is the presence of God without one.

Well, hmmm…

And the funniest thing is that the whole concept of Christianity always was and will be pagan and forbidden by the Torah.

Shy Guy on March 24, 2008 at 3:53 AM

Doesn’t it HAVE TO BE interpreted that way to the Jew? If it were not, Jews would become Christians, wouldn’t they?

BNCurtis on March 24, 2008 at 10:01 AM
But Jesus was a Jew preaching to Jews what Judaism understands G-d defined as idolatry from the time the earth was created. This has nothing to do with interpretation but with G-d’s commandments to mankind.

And keep in mind that Christianity claims to be a either a continuation or a replacement of Judaism. You have to have a very fickle creator of the universe to be able to stomach that.

So why should anyone have listened to him? He had no basis nor foundation to be accepted by anyone, certainly not the Jews he preached to.

easter makes no damned sense.

Christians need to understand why these arguments only work on other Christians.

HeIsSailing on March 24, 2008 at 8:49 AM

The ol Jedi mind trick, won’t trick you.

The reason your argument about Aztec religion is so unconvincing, is that along with the biblical texts, there are literally hundreds of texts and historical documents that sustain and support the bible.
Surely you believe Julius Caesar was a ruler and actually lived. Much more historical information was written about Jesus then Julius. Many more accurate accounts were written abut Jesus then Julius. Yet you would probably never walk around saying Julius was not a ruler, because some historical documents support that he was…and many more support whom Jesus was (is).
We use the bible because it is a document supported by many other documents, not just written by one person that pulled the information out of a hat.
That is how C.S. Lewis began his quest, to finally prove once and for all the myth of Jesus…he, like you, were upset by the “Christians” and there fables, he, maybe unlike you, decided to prove himself correct. And at the end, became a believer in the facts.
Facts, by the way, that are much more substantiated now then the decades ago of C.S. Lewis.
After 2,000 years, the most reviled book in history, still is embraced…much to the chagrin of the people who “keep and open mind”.
If history and facts won’t convince you, then Jedi mind tricks won’t either…”the force is strong within in you…”
You just keep chanting…I will not believe, I will not believe, I will not believe…and you will be just fine, you have at least 8% of the people with you (of course 10% still believe Elvis is alive, so your just 2% away from them).

And the funniest thing is that the whole concept of Christianity always was and will be pagan and forbidden by the Torah.
Shy Guy on March 24, 2008 at 3:53 AM

Doesn’t it HAVE TO BE interpreted that way to the Jew? If it were not, Jews would become Christians, wouldn’t they?

So tell me, HeIsSailing, who do you say Jesus is – Liar, Lunatic, or Lord? The decision is yours.

No, that is not a decision that I can make. You are asking me to make decisions on the assumption that I take myth and legend as literal historical fact. I do not.

Let me ask you to make the following theological choice: Was the Aztec god Quetzalcoatl born of the virgin Coatlicue, or was he actually the son of Xochiquetzal and Mixcoatl? That is your decision to make – you have to choose abcurtis!

Why can you not make a decision? Because you understand that Aztec myth is not to be taken literally as historical fact. It is based on myth and legend, and when you understand that, making decisions based on it is impossible.

When you understand why the choice I have given you to make is completely nonsensical to you, you will understand why CS Lewis’ famous trilemna argument (Lord Liar or Lunatic) is nonsensical to me. Christians need to understand why these arguments only work on other Christians.

Scripture does not tell us how the apostles died, I give you that one. We do know however, the Christian martyrs who were killed by the Roman persecution…

I’ll grant you that, but generic Christian martyrdom is very different from your earlier statement:

why did the apostles so readily give their lives for the cause of Christ?

The fact is, we have no idea what happened to the only alleged eyewitnesses of Christ’s resurrection. Only lengendary sources attest to how they died. Their witness of the apostles by their own martyrdom is no evidence at all for the resurrection of Jesus.

I always hear this from Christians – that we are sending ourselves to hell by not believing in things like the resurrection of Jesus.

The resurrection of Christ is a major doctrine, the very cornerstone of the Christian faith. But there are many doctrines the belief of which cements one’s acceptance of Christ. These doctrines are evidence of Christ’s divinity. It’s not so much NOT believing in the resurrection, but by rejecting that one doctrine, you reject Jesus’ divinity as a whole. You cant believe in His miracles and not His resurrection. Jesus is not a buffet where you pick and choose what appeals to you. You have to accept all of Him or none of Him.
Not trying to get deep theologically, but we all are sinners before God. It’s the sin that keeps us separated from God and that sends us to Hell. How to avoid Hell? Turn away from sin, repent (that’s a free choice) and accept the sacrifice Christ made on the cross for the payment in full of the sin debt owed to God. Sin is wiped away and we stand blameless before God. I am a sinner saved by grace – no more and no less. Thanks to what Jesus did, I’m a former sinner. I will stand before Him on the last day, clean, stainless, and sinless, just as if I had never sinned.
And God did give us free will – one can choose to believe not not.
So tell me, HeIsSailing, who do you say Jesus is – Liar, Lunatic, or Lord? The decision is yours.

why did the apostles so readily give their lives for the cause of Christ?

How do you know they did? The only apostle noted as killed in Scripture is James, the brother of John (Acts 12:2). How do you know how any of the others died? What is your source material for this information?