Is the trade off that St.Pauls becomes a mosque?

BL@KBIRD on March 17, 2008 at 10:50 AM

The Catholic churches in Saudi had better be fortresses, with remote explosive sniffers to detect suicide bombers. Certain -ah- groups in the Kingdom will not take this very well - one suspects that the Muttawain (religious police) will make a practice of hanging out outside the church to harass parishioners.

Realist on March 17, 2008 at 10:52 AM

Bush has a lot to do with this. In 2003 the idea of democracy, not particularly welcomed at the time, caught on like wildfire in the Middle East. There were several first time democratic elections held in places like Egypt, Afghanistan and Iraq. Occupying Syria was kicked out of Lebanon by the Lebanese who saw Afghanistan and Iraq as a model for potential freedom by and for the people.

Pope Benedict opened dialogue between the Muslim and Christian faiths. Even those among us who want peace were challenged to see the good in dialoguing with Muslims but the Islamic global community has reached out to Christians extending an olive branch so the two can start down a path of coexistence.

There’s still a lot of work to be done, but al-Qaeda has also been instrumental in a new tolerant (or fairly tolerant) Islam emerging from the middle ages as Muslims reject their horrific acts of inhumanity. All these forces working together are making change under the guidance of God’s hand. It’s still difficult for Christians all around the world but there are strides being made like never before.

People aren’t born grown ups… they are born babies and take baby steps from there. That is what’s happening in the dialogue and interaction between the faiths.

Amy Proctor on March 17, 2008 at 10:53 AM

From Al Jazeera

William Amos on March 17, 2008 at 10:56 AM

…up to 900,000 Catholics live in Saudi Arabia, all of them expatriate workers.

Indentured servents from the P.I.

Tony737 on March 17, 2008 at 10:58 AM

Exit question one: Does this mean Bibles will be legal in the Kingdom, or is that simply far too dangerous a reform?

Bibles, rosaries, and Christian meet-up groups. If you’re going to have a church, you’re gonna have to have bibles. But still, today, Christian travelers to the Kingdom have their bibles and rosaries removed from their luggage and simply tossed out.

Exit question two: What’s the connection between this and the church that just opened in Qatar? I wonder if Benedict pressed to have that one built first knowing there’d be less resistance, so that he could wave it at the Saudis as a precedent.

The Holy See is doing a magnificent job of dialogue between it and the Muslim nations. Slow going, but at least it’s going. I don’t know if the Pope had too much to do with the church in Qatar…or if countries like Saudi Arabia would care much about the more Western-leaning Emirates that allow Christian churches.

Of course, when I see those pictures of a Catholic church under construction in Saudi, I’ll fully believe it.

JetBoy on March 17, 2008 at 11:00 AM

I think back to Mark Steyn saying that the rulers don’t speak for the people. Abdula may allow them in, but that’s not to say his people will.

AbaddonsReign on March 17, 2008 at 11:03 AM

I agree with the Qatar gambit, and I wouldn’t be surprised if that was buffeted to first base by some of the stories coming out of Iraq. Competition is a major aspect in these moves for a number of reasons.

But don’t slop on too much praise until the Jehovah’s Witnesses can door to door.

Dusty on March 17, 2008 at 11:07 AM

I’m here in Qatar, the locals are very proud that these churches are open. (its actually a complex for Christian churches - Lutherans, Protestants and Methodists are all planning or actually building churches next to this cathedral) We have 8000 brits, 9000 Americans (non-miltary) about 5000 other westerners and about 100,000 Filipinos many who are Catholic.

The church is actually not the first there have been several smaller ones in rented Villas. My daughters attend a christian Youth group called Solid Rock.

This is a step that the Emir has taken at the risk of his life from those who are the darkest of intolerant. Sheik Hamad is the one who immediately without press conferences or radio commercials wired 100 million dollars directly for Katrina aid the day after it happened.

The Emir is also opening a mission for the Israelies as well and the goal is to exchange ambassadors which was put off with the 2001 invasion in Lebanon.

Yes, things are changing in the gulf - my daughter had a minor neck injury (she’s fine) but the government ambulanced her to the trama unit at the massive Hamad General in Doha. I saw construction workers, poor people, being given the best medical treatment by top doctors around the world with concern and compassion all paid for by the government. Yes there are problems in labor pay, safety but they are being corrected as national initiatives are seriously underway to bring this country as an example for the rest of the gulf.

When this type of basic humanity and compassion leaves the borders of this tiny country and shames and motivates Saudi, Iran, and Iraq militants that there is a different way, a way of true islamic peace and charity then prosperity will visit those countries in ways they cannot even imagine.

Good things happen from and to good people

EricPWJohnson on March 17, 2008 at 11:09 AM

As a note having met and given speeches to Saudi’s you have more friends over there than enemies

And no - I’m not naive -

There is a fear among all Arabs that the western movements - especially thorugh radio and television that is taking away the lifestyles and moral compass of the kingdoms.

Most uncomfortable is the explanations in classrooms as to why the Arab world is thee last to not have free elections

I’m not excusing them, i’m eplaining

EricPWJohnson on March 17, 2008 at 11:13 AM

The most important question is will native Saudi’s be allowed to practice Catholicism if they so choose?

irish_infidel on March 17, 2008 at 11:15 AM

Maybe the War on Terror is nearing an end. See pic at PearlHarbor.org

I wonder what the other side of this compromise is? Mosques in the Vatican?

faraway on March 17, 2008 at 11:17 AM

Warden Message: Qatari Security Concerns
CONSULAR AFFAIRS BULLETINS
Middle East / N. Africa - Qatar
13 Mar 2008
U.S. Embassy Doha released the following Warden Message on March 13:

The Department of State remains concerned about the continued threat of terrorist attacks, demonstrations and other violent actions against U.S. citizens and interests overseas. Current information suggests that al-Qaida and affiliated organizations continue to plan terrorist attacks against U.S. interests in multiple regions, including Europe, Asia, Africa and the Middle East. These attacks may employ a wide variety of tactics including suicide operations, assassinations, kidnappings, hijackings and bombings.

Extremists may elect to use conventional or non-conventional weapons, and target both official and private interests. Examples of such targets include high-profile sporting events, residential areas, business offices, hotels, clubs, restaurants, places of worship, such as the new Christian Church complex in Doha, schools, public areas and locales where Americans gather.

The U.S. Embassy in Doha encourages all U.S. citizens to maintain a high level of vigilance and to take appropriate steps to maintain their security awareness.

•

EricPWJohnson on March 17, 2008 at 11:20 AM

Baby steps, but progress nonetheless. I’d expect the Saudi morality police to have it staked out as a Honey Pot. Any Saudis entering the church, will be immediately escorted out back and beheaded for apostacy.

BohicaTwentyTwo on March 17, 2008 at 11:30 AM

sorry about the misspelling - what’s this preview button for anyway?

EricPWJohnson on March 17, 2008 at 11:33 AM

Well it’s about time. I am glad that the Pope finally did something to promote Christianity worldwide instead of condemning people to hell for a new set of reasons.

This is one incident where I applaud the Catholic Church. The goal of the Christian Church should be to spread the Gospel of Christ and only to spread the Gospel of Christ. The church shouldn’t be telling people how to live or ‘they’ll to go hell’.

Thank you Pope Benedict for doing something useful. . . even if it doesn’t work out for a church in Saudi, this is the role of the Christian Church.

The thing about Muslims is that they love God and they are very devout. The only way to convince them that God is a loving God and not a vengeful God is to introduce them to the Christ who re establishes the covenant with them.

Now if we can be allowed to proselytize and convert Muslims without Muslims fearing for their lives, we’ll have a much more peaceful world.

Good job here Mr. pope sir.

ThackerAgency on March 17, 2008 at 11:37 AM

Jetboy-

Never say “never”.

Only if Islam falls will churches be built in Saudi Arabia.

Otherwise, the Muslim faithful will prevent it, since it is part of the central dogma of Mohammadism to keep all other creeds out of the region.

Islam must cease in its current form before this change could occur.

profitsbeard on March 17, 2008 at 11:41 AM

Of course the moonbats will point to secret “Indulgences for Oil” deals while the Vatican expands its territorial possessions for the first time since 1870. He is a German Pope after all.
Ah the bouquet of liberal lunacy is so refreshing in the spring.

Iblis on March 17, 2008 at 12:02 PM

Afterwards, the king offered his host a gold sword encrusted with jewels.

Many people are “offered” the sword every day in the Kingdom…blade first.

labrat on March 17, 2008 at 12:41 PM

I love Papa Ben, but I’ll believe it when I see it.

socalconservative on March 17, 2008 at 12:54 PM

DavidK

Lonestartimes is run by a guy named David Benzion who was the producer for KSEV radio and is a staunch conservative.

He was State Senator Dan Patricks’ producer for many years.

EricPWJohnson on March 17, 2008 at 1:17 PM

a good place to begin for a mutual exchange

unclesmrgol

What exchange would that possibly be?

BL@KBIRD on March 17, 2008 at 1:36 PM

It’s not gonna happen. Saudi Arabia is the country where the king was assassinated over building a TV station. It’s a country chock full ‘o nuts. I’d be more ready to believe it if they had opened a movie theater, just one, anywhere in the country. Plus, they’d be fighting Mohammed’s command that Arabia be exclusively Islamic.

The Saudis are fond of making feints in the direction of reform and then reneging. They’d have more luck trying to edit the bigotry and hate out of their elementary school textbooks.

However, I note that Saudi Arabia has not been shy about funding mosques all over Europe, including the biggest one in Rome, just a couple miles from the Vatican. What do you think THAT was about? Supremacy.

Tantor on March 17, 2008 at 1:58 PM

I had an image of Christians doing a tuck and roll from one street corner to another, til they get inside the undergroung church/bunker.

ThePrez on March 17, 2008 at 2:14 PM

EricPWJohnson: “The king of Norway funds Norwiegan Seamans churches all over the US - So does the King of Sweden - is it a Lutheran Consipracy?”

The Lutherans are not perpetrating a war of religious imperialism against the non-Lutherans nor is the King of Norway funding a terror campaign to impose Lutheranism by blowing people into bloody chunks from New York to Bali. The Lutheran churches do not sport hate literature against non-Lutherans nor do they hand out brochures to visiting Norwegians telling them that they have a religious duty to hate American and that participating in our democracy is blasphemy.

The Lutherans have never, to my knowledge, identified America as their Great Satan in their most sacred religious rituals nor have Lutherans celebrated the mass murder of Americans. No Lutherans have been caught casing office buildings nor bridges for terror attacks nor caught mixing big tubs of explosive to carry such plots out nor succeeded in carrying them out. Lutherans have never flown any skyjacked jets into skyscrapers. Lutherans do not teach hatred for other religions. There is no Lutheran doctrine that non-Lutherans must convert to Lutheranism, submit to Lutheran rule, or die.

Pancake breakfasts are about as radical as Lutherans get.

There is a vast difference between Lutherans and Muslims, particularly Saudi Wahhabi Muslims, who are murderous Neanderthals who follow a barbaric bloodthirsty faith. To paraphrase the proud boast of the Muslim radicals, they love death while Lutherans love life. That is a vast difference between us.

And why exactly don’t you know this?

Tantor on March 17, 2008 at 2:36 PM

It’s been about 15 years since I spent time in Saudi Arabia. I would be shocked if this went anywhere. The Saudi culture is really strange and they are really strange about what happens on Saudi soil.

Hog Wild on March 17, 2008 at 6:57 PM

EricPWJohnson: “Lutherans (which I am one, which was the (un)official religion of Germany) sanctioned the following wars WWI WWII”

These wars were fought by Germany for its own particular political reasons, not to extend Lutheranism. That differs from the Islamic jihad to propagate their religion by violence which has continued for 1300 years, of which the current Wahhabist campaign of terror is the most recent expression of violence.

Your example of WWII is particulary strained, seeing as Hitler, the architect of that war, was a pagan.

EricPWJohnson: “The rest of your comments are soo much drivel - I deal with Wahabbist every day and believe it or not the Emir of Qatar is one as well in fact Qatar is THE only Wahabbist country”

What a blithe but unpersuasive dismissal. The $500K which funded the Sep 11 attack came not only from Saudi Arabia but from the Gulf States. Perhaps your pal, the Emir of Qatar, was one of the donors. Your rebuttal that Saudi Arabia is not bad because you deal with Wahhabis is a non sequitur.

EricPWJohnson: “Saudi is only partly Wahabbist Its the individual preachers, inmans, rabbi’s, gurus, monks, etc, making individual statements and choices they as indiviuals - do not define a religion nor do they attach it to their followers”

Wahhabis are not known for a devotion to individualism but rather for their adamant conformism. Wahhabism is a totalitarian program which demands compliance in every single aspect of your life, even down to how you mate and urinate. The Wahhabis are not bombing people so that they may more freely march to their own drummer, but to compel them to submit to Wahhibism in every dimension of their lives.

I’m sure the Shia of the east coast of Saudi Arabia and the people of Jidda would agree that Wahhabism does not allow for much individualism.

EricPWJohnson: “My point about lutherans was to not let you paint 1.2 billion people with too wide a brush”

Muslims have committed ten thousand terror attacks since Sep 11, killing sixty thousand people and wounding ninety thousand. Muslims are painting their own portrait of their religion in blood. Had Muslims been as peaceful and productive as Lutherans, I would have a better opinion of them. For example, Lutherans have built many hospitals and universities in America. Where are the hospitals and universities the Muslims have built? So far, Muslims have built more terror cells and bombs in America than hospitals or universities because their creed is a violent and destructive one. It has earned our contempt.

Tantor on March 18, 2008 at 11:44 AM