Mukasey: Don’t give 9/11 plotters what they want most Update & Bump: AOL Hot Seat Poll added
posted at 9:00 am on March 15, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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Attorney General Michael Mukasey spoke at the London School of Economics today and surprised the audience with his comments on the application of the death penalty for the 9/11 plotters held at Guantanamo Bay. Given the administration’s support of the death penalty, they probably expected Mukasey to offer the usual justifications for it, especially for terrorists like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Mukasey argued instead that the US should not give them the martyrdom they seek, but rather a lifetime of obscure captivity:
U.S. Attorney General Michael Mukasey said on Friday he hoped the six Guantanamo prisoners charged with the September 11 attacks on New York and Washington would not receive the death penalty.
Speaking at the London School of Economics, Mukasey said the death penalty would allow the six, including the self-confessed commander of al Qaeda’s foreign military operations, to portray themselves as victims.
“I hope they don’t get the death penalty — they would see themselves as martyrs,” Mukasey said in response to questions at a talk on Anglo-American law enforcement.
Readers at Hot Air may not know it, but I oppose the death penalty — for normal criminal justice. In my opinion, the justice system makes too many mistakes and the application of the death penalty is too skewed along racial and gender lines to be just, let alone be perceived as justice. It makes martyrs out of people like Mumia Abu Jamal and Stanley “Tookie” Williams, who otherwise would have to rot for their crimes over an entire lifetime — and whose victims would not have to fight for decades before seeing their cases come to closure.
However, I do not oppose it for those who make war on the United States. If we catch Osama bin Laden, I’d volunteer to flip the switch, drop the trap door, or perform the injection. The same is true for those who plotted the 9/11 attacks, and the Khobar Towers bombing, the USS Cole attack, and the bombings of our embassies in Tanzania and Kenya in 1998. They made themselves the enemy of our nation, and that comes with the biggest price tag of them all.
That doesn’t mean Mukasey doesn’t have a point. Most of these terrorists, with the possible exception of KSM, entered into this business with the hope of dying at the hands of the enemy, not rotting in prison for 60 years. They want a quick death, followed by a reception in a heaven where women are chattel for their sexual amusement. Without a martyr’s death, they not only will be denied a martyr’s afterlife but be guaranteed a long and miserable existence where they can only see the sun one hour a day. Most of these terrorists are young, and with proper medical care, they could live for decades.
Is there really a fate worse than death? Absolutely, especially for these lunatics. And that, strangely enough, may create more of a deterrent than hanging or lethal injection. If terrorists discover that capture means not a martyr’s death but a literally interminable prison sentence, the jihad may lose some of its luster. Zacarias Moussaoui received a life sentence for his role in al-Qaeda, and as the judge put it, he will “die with a whimper.”
Should we put these mass-murdering maniacs to death? Or should we deny them that which they desire above all, and have them die whimpering as wasted old men, forgotten by all but their jailers? I have to admit, it’s a tough choice.
Update (AP): I addressed this question last year vis-a-vis the blind sheikh, Omar Abdul Rahman, who’s doing life for his role in the first WTC bombing. If Mukasey means that we should deny them death to deny Al Qaeda the propaganda tool of declaring them martyrs, that argument’s shot; follow the link and you’ll see why. If he means that we should deny them death to deny them the gratification of their fondest wish, this atheist has no qualms with giving the people what they want. Send them to the void. Life in prison’s no fun, but it’s something.
Update: AOL has this as its Hot Seat poll question today. If you’re visiting from AOL, take a look around Hot Air, and be sure to bookmark us!
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Blackjack Pershing buried them in pig guts
Johan Klaus on March 15, 2008 at 3:35 PM
Put the scum in maximum security and feed them a steady diet of pork for the rest of their lives. If they wish to stage a hunger strike and die, that would be their choice.
oldleprechaun on March 15, 2008 at 4:01 PM
A lifetime in obscurity probably looks good to them right now. I say send them to the afterlife with a pant-load.
oakpack on March 15, 2008 at 4:07 PM
Execute the pigs and then feed their sorry carcasses to swine. The joke is on you Jihad boy. Martyrdom is highly overrated. Death to these assholes.
mcgilvra on March 15, 2008 at 4:21 PM
Any other time I would answer an enthusiastic YES. Mukasey’s got a point, though. Eff these guys. In these particular cases, death is a reward. Let ‘em rot in prison.
The only stipulation would be that we throw away the key. No appeals, no time off for good behavior, no “I’ve come to Jesus” revelations. They stay in a hole and get bread and water until they die.
MikeZero on March 15, 2008 at 4:34 PM
Death is only a reward to them in their opinions…after they’re excecuted,they will find out real fast that they are not going have any virgins or be in paradise.
In reality they are going to the lake of fire for eternal torture…so give them what they want.
Besides you know that Hussein Obama,Mccain or the Hildebeast will release them as soon as possible…let’s not give them that option.
SaintOlaf on March 15, 2008 at 4:38 PM
If we sent them to one of our super-max prisons, I’d bet the inmates there will be happy to make things very sad for them.
AbaddonsReign on March 15, 2008 at 4:39 PM
“Is there really a fate worse than death? Absolutely, especially for these lunatics.”
I buy that element of the abolitionist movement as a premise, but I reject the anti-death penalty argument simply because, as our courts demonstrate time and time again, there are no guarantees that a prisoner spends the rest of his life in prison. None. With liberal justices appointed in droves every time a Democrat is in office, it’s only a matter of time before a murderer with a crack in the case against him gets before an appeals court that throws his conviction out. Then there’s always the possible breakdown of the society that funds our plush prison system, which would allow for breakouts. Call it the Mumia rule.
The only place where you can guarantee that a murderer receives a just punishment, unfortunately, is the grave.
If hand-wringers would be willing to allow for the establishment of a “Death Row” where, after an appeals period, “dead” prisoners are sent and explicitly denied contact with the outside world, including judicial recourse, and could only be allowed to interact with the justice system in the cases of discovery of DNA or medical evidence from the outside, AND the prisons had explicit orders to gas the whole Row in any case or calamity where they were unable to maintain their captivity, then I would consider it. But even then, perhaps only with the permission of the victim’s next-of-kin.
HitNRun on March 15, 2008 at 5:00 PM
I highly doubt anyone would release them short of President bin Laden
Squid Shark on March 15, 2008 at 5:02 PM
As our courts demostrate time and time again, they get it wrong enough to make the death penalty not worth it.
If hand-wringers would be willing to allow for the establishment of a “Death Row” where, after an appeals period, “dead” prisoners are sent and explicitly denied contact with the outside world, including judicial recourse, and could only be allowed to interact with the justice system in the cases of discovery of DNA or medical evidence from the outside, AND the prisons had explicit orders to gas the whole Row in any case or calamity where they were unable to maintain their captivity, then I would consider it.
But even then, perhaps only with the permission of the victim’s next-of-kin.
Squid Shark on March 15, 2008 at 5:08 PM
Sorry reverse quotes
Squid Shark on March 15, 2008 at 5:08 PM
The only place the wrongly accused can not find justice is the grave.
Squid Shark on March 15, 2008 at 5:09 PM
The fact is, President Bush is releasing al qaeda terrorists from Gitmo even now.
Mccain is even more of a leftist than Bush and is opposed to both Gitmo and tough interrogation.
Yes. He will release them.
SaintOlaf on March 15, 2008 at 5:20 PM
Quite the contrary. Just because a man walks free doesn’t mean the courts “got it wrong,” it means that he won his second trial. Many things can precipitate a new trial, and most of them, as anyone who is familiar with the tactics of lawyers know, are BS.
This is a common misconception brought on by the (understandable) desire of society to justify and rationalize the death penalty to itself. The DP, however, wasn’t invented in 1776 or when the Constitution was signed. The new verbalizations of its purpose written at the birth of each new nation is largely semantic and feel-goodism. It’s a long tradition, nearly unbroken throughout human history. That’s not an argument in favor of it, merely an acknowledgment that it has existed long before there was what we would now call “justice and society.”
Furthermore, if you think there’s difference between non-divine “justice” and “vengeance,” you need to step away from the comic books and action films. “Justice” is, from an anthropological standpoint, basically “vengeance enacted to allow the continuation of the social order.”
Yep. How many prisoners “deemed of low threat” and released from Guantanamo have we recaptured on the battlefield? This story says 10, but it’s 3 years old.
HitNRun on March 15, 2008 at 5:32 PM
Al qaeda terrorist or accused persons with no proven connections?
Squid Shark on March 15, 2008 at 5:33 PM
It is a hell of alot harder to win a second trial than the first. Beyond a reasonable doubt is of course the standard, but the bar is often set higher for a second trial. In fact the bar is extremely high to even get a second trial.
Man I hope you are never wrongly accused of a crime…
Exactly, but it is “theoretically” resoned and considered societal vengeance. You are not going to get anything reasonable out of the family. My wife’s officer defended a guy in Jax recently who was convicted of manslaughter because he sold a gun to a kid who “shot himself”. There was pretty significant evidence that the kids buddy was the one who shot him and hid the body and lied to the cops. There was no real evidence that the guy sold the gun to the kid. But it was a black guy with a few misdemeanors and the victim was a little white kid. The mom was yapping to everyone who would listen, the jury pool was tainted and the public pressure was amazing to convict this “evil” guy. Now this guy is in prison for 45 years, all because the judge did not put a tamp on the victims family.
Squid Shark on March 15, 2008 at 5:45 PM
So are you arguing against progress in society or should we resume banging each other with clubs
Squid Shark on March 15, 2008 at 5:47 PM
I groan every time I see these long rants about the effect of imprisonment on the offender. Why is that given so much weight?
The fact is that the recidivism rate of those who are executed is ZERO PERCENT!!! That makes the death penalty the singularly most effective method of protecting society from the most dangerous among us.
And shouldn’t “protecting society” be the most important function of the judicial system?
landlines on March 15, 2008 at 6:07 PM
And protecting society from the ones we wrongly convict.
Have you every broken the law, landlines.
Run a red light.
Sped.
Cheated on taxes?
If you were a evangelical I would have a field day with your statement, but I will not assume anything, expect that you have broken a law at some point in your life.
Squid Shark on March 15, 2008 at 6:11 PM
Landlines,
I would love to see proof that the death penalty stops crime and make society safer.
We have had the death penalty for almost as long as we have had society. We still have plenty of good ol crime everywhere.
Squid Shark on March 15, 2008 at 6:13 PM
I for one would prefer freedom and liberty with an element of risk than the “protective” nanny state.
Roebuck on March 15, 2008 at 6:25 PM
If these folks are captured on the battlefield fighting our troops, they are guilty and should giving a summary execution. Everyone has got to realize that we are not fightng a conventional enemy and we have got to adjust our tactics accordingly, Blackjack Pershing realized this and took appropriate actions. We caught German terrorist in the U.S.A. in WW2 they were executed post haste.
Johan Klaus on March 15, 2008 at 6:50 PM
Robuck, do you also think that it is OK to blow the bad guys away if they invade someone’s home, or try rob them?
Johan Klaus on March 15, 2008 at 6:55 PM
We are not fighting a conventional enemy and we have got to adjust our tactics accordingly. Blackjack Pershing understood this and adjusted his tactics. Any enemy that is caught fighting our troops on the battlefield sans uniforms should be giving a summary executions. During WW2 when German terrorist entered the U.S.A., they were executed post haste.
Johan Klaus on March 15, 2008 at 7:03 PM
Johan Klaus on March 15, 2008 at 6:55 PM
If their life is threatened, which is assumed if you break into the home.
Squid Shark on March 15, 2008 at 7:07 PM
Sure. But judicial activism, in shaping our society is a progressive notion that I want no part of.
Roebuck on March 15, 2008 at 7:09 PM
The problem with your assumption squid is that you,as a moderate, have adopted the centerpiece of the flawed liberal ideology….the idea that society can be perfected through secular solutions.
The socialist communists believe it and tried it. Now 240 million are dead because of them. One world government/new world order supporters believe it also..it will be the death of America(the last free superpower on earth).
Society is not getting better and better it is getting worse and worse. Devolution in society and biology are obvious facts.
Make no mistake about it, there is no secular solution.
There is NEVER going to be a secular solution nor governmental system that will fix society’s ills.
The only hope for mankind is for mankind to become saved with grace through faith in Jesus Christ!
When a man becomes saved he tries not to sin and feels compassion for his fellow man,he will try to save as many souls as possible.
This is the only way that society becomes just and safe and improves.
SaintOlaf on March 15, 2008 at 7:46 PM
We have got to realize that we are not fighting a traditional enemy.
Johan Klaus on March 15, 2008 at 8:05 PM
These folks were captured on the battlefield sans uniform fighting our guys. They should have been giving a summary execution.
Johan Klaus on March 15, 2008 at 8:11 PM
On the contrary, rule of law and justice is a very conservative ideal.
I respectfully disagree, for good reason since I dont buy into your messianism.
What does this have to do with the death penalty?
MMMMM Tastes like theocracy.
Squid Shark on March 15, 2008 at 8:11 PM
Rules in war time have always been different than rules in peace time.
Johan Klaus on March 15, 2008 at 8:15 PM
I think if you execute them using bullets filled with pig’s blood, you get everything you want. The terrorists are dead, and according to their faith, they’ve been defiled and cannot get into Allah’s big all-virgin brothel. Tell the terrorists what kind of bullets you’ll be using. Tell the world you used them after the execution. As a bonus, you won’t have to waterboard any of them anymore, as they’ll be singing like canaries to avoid that same fate. Be sure to bring a box to every interrogation that is clearly marked in English and Arabic “Pig’s Blood Bullets.”
Kafir on March 15, 2008 at 8:29 PM
I’ll add to that list, absolutely no contact with the outside world in any way, shape or form, they stay in isolation. And there may not be a stipulation for future polititians to be able to set them free under any circumstances. Also, no media coverage on them, interviews, zilch. Not even when they’re 99 years old. We do not need 60 Minutes doing a bleeding heart piece on how insane or depraved these worthless nothings have become. If I’ve forgotten any other reasonable stipulations, add those too. And if all these cannot be met, then give them the death penalty.
4shoes on March 15, 2008 at 9:24 PM
Note to Mukasey:
You only get rid of homicidal martyrs one way:
the permanent way.
And stop listening to them.
If our enemies are to be consulted on anything it is only:
nylon or sisal?
profitsbeard on March 15, 2008 at 9:35 PM
Sounds like moral relativism to me.
Squid Shark on March 15, 2008 at 9:47 PM
I am glad we have you to give you august legal opinion :0
Squid Shark on March 15, 2008 at 9:50 PM
Squid Shark-
Worked for Saddam.
He went for the traditional one-way ascot.
profitsbeard on March 15, 2008 at 10:21 PM
Sadaam was convicted in a civilian court by his countrymen :)
I have no say in how the Iraqis conduct things only in how they do it over here.
Squid Shark on March 15, 2008 at 10:25 PM
Squid Shark
Speaking of Saddam, he was hung. Isnt it an insult or shameful to be hung? Saddam was asking for a firing squad because of this. If this is uniform thruout Islam, hanging is for the disgraced, then why not hang them?
Personally i dont want my tax $ feeding these guys politically and religiously correct food (Islamic prepared meals that cost more than a typical military meal). Hanging them will be killing them with no honor to them, but giving them life in prison could yield further intel or insight into this death cult later down the road. even if it is 20 yrs later, any info or insight not previously known is useful. and in hte case of Saddam’s mentor who is rotting in prison in Egypt, he even publicly admitted regretting his involvement in radical islam.
El Guapo on March 15, 2008 at 10:36 PM
Another very good reason. The only visit they get will be from the nice men of the CIA. No torture, just let them ruminate on their lives for a while.
Squid Shark on March 15, 2008 at 10:39 PM
Squid Shark
yah, i very quickly changed my mind to giving them life in prison to deny them any virgins or honor. Let them rot in prison, but with hard labor. put their @$$es to work to minimize tax payer cost, and put that sherrif in New Mexico who makes his inmates wear pink underwear, grow their own food, pitch their own tetns, in charge. Let them know what pulling your own weight really feels like.
El Guapo on March 15, 2008 at 10:48 PM
Im telling you man, Alaskan Gulag
Squid Shark on March 15, 2008 at 10:50 PM
Squid Shark
Sorry, I can’t agreee with that one word. I plan on running for congress when i retire. Maybe putting them to work drilling oil in Alaska, and feeding the caribu to offset any imaginary environmental damage. But no “gulag”. We are better than that - theat’s me talking not my future politcal aspirations.
El Guapo on March 15, 2008 at 10:54 PM
The problem with your assumption squid is that you,as a moderate, have adopted the centerpiece of the flawed liberal ideology….the idea that society can be perfected through secular solutions.
Obviously I’m not saying that you are a liberal,but that the entire concept is flawed.
If your conservatism agrees with this concept, it is also flawed. Man is fallen and flawed(and only getting worse), if you think that a form of government can create a perfect society and eventually, progressively, strive to become perfect…you are deceiving yourself.
Clearly you are a person who believes in justice and law…..do you not see that God created the Law?
God is perfect and good and just. Nothing imperfect or unholy can be accepted by Him. He wouldn’t be just if he did.
He created the Law for mankind and has “written it in man’s hearts”.
If you have ever broken God’s law even ONCE you are a sinner against God…unholy and imperfect.
Squid Shark tell me this,
Have you ever broken God’s Law?
Have you ever lied?
Stolen anything?
Said God’s name as a curse word?
Lusted after a woman?
Loved anything more than you love God by obeying Him?
Of course you have.
And if God judged you now by His Law would you be guilty and suffer eternal torture in hell? Yes.
All men have sinned against God.
Your culture is the only culture in the world that has prophesied it would be destroyed and scattered throughout the earth and 2000 years later…..be reborn as a nation!
This has been fulfilled, as have thousands of prophecies in the Bible.
Your Bible has over 400 prophecies about Jesus Christ that have been fulfilled!
Only God is good, Jesus Christ was fully God and is good.
He died on the cross for our sins and was resurrected.
All who repent,turn from sin and accept him into their lives will have everlasting life.
By accepting him into your life,The Holy Spirit indwells you, you take on Christ’s righteousness in God’s eyes on judgment day.
The only way man is saved through experiencing God’s Grace
through faith in Jesus Christ!
This is the Gospel.
Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life”! “No man comes to the Father except through me”!
SaintOlaf on March 15, 2008 at 10:59 PM
I am going ot have to agree with SaintOlaf on hte “law” thing. You cannot find any law that does not exist in the bible, or from any other religion including Paganism. And pagan does not stand for People Agasint Goodness And Normalcy. Even Hamarabi’s code, the first written laws, were based on religious ideals at that time.
And I wish people would wake up or learn the truth. THE GOVT IS NOT THE ANSWER. YOU ARE THE ANSWER. Kindness and giving begins with YOU, not the gov’t. The gov’t’s job is to protect your freedoms and uphold the law (Constitution), that is it. Not fund mandatory charities, wich are no longer charity if they are mandatory.
El Guapo on March 15, 2008 at 11:09 PM
Gulag = bad word sorry, I made a bad choice there :0
I plan on running once I finish my mil career as well.
Squid Shark on March 15, 2008 at 11:09 PM
Anyways, the 9/11 plotters should be sentenced to life of servitude to the nation. they should be put to work doing something that benefits our country. and this does not violate the constitution 13th Amendment).
El Guapo on March 15, 2008 at 11:14 PM
Squid Shark
you too, where you stationed? how long you have to go? This site seems to have tons of vets (me including, 10 + yrs)
El Guapo on March 15, 2008 at 11:15 PM
Life imprisonment is a nice thought, but it doesn’t fit the real world. These people are not criminals.
Terrorists in Israeli jails are routinely released as part of swaps. All the terrorists have to do is kidnap a few Israelis or stir up enough trouble, and their jailed comrades are out with some deal and a glib rationalization. It’s worked time after time; those in Israeli jails know and count on this. There is absolutely no reason to believe that the same thing wouldn’t happen here, either openly or behind the scene, as apparently happened with the Iranian officers captured in Iraq.
In a sense, it’s already happening at Gitmo: those who should have been executed as terrorists immediately after being caught fighting in civilian clothes were freed, and a unhealthy chunk of them merely went back to terrorism.
Aardvark on March 15, 2008 at 11:20 PM
I see it and agree, but it is our responsibility to justly carry out the law.
————————-
I really didnt want to get into this with you…
This has been fulfilled, as have thousands of prophecies in the Bible.
Your Bible has over 400 prophecies about Jesus Christ that have been fulfilled!
Forgive me if I dont buy into books written by followers after their leaders death which contain stories which sometimes conveniently sync up with old prophesies which may or may not be about the messiach.
Squid Shark on March 15, 2008 at 11:21 PM
Im in Jacksonville right now. I used to be in Norfolk, Naples, and done several TAD assignments.
Squid Shark on March 15, 2008 at 11:22 PM
Eh I am looking at a few more years.
Squid Shark on March 15, 2008 at 11:31 PM
Aardvark
you can thank liberalism and their lawyers for that. instead of changing laws they outspend (because they have more money) the other lawyers to win thier cases in settlement.
Squid Shark
I am no religious thumper nor am i a regular church goer, last time:2005?. but after reading the bible in my spare time in iraq (little of it- about an hour each night before bed) i learned there is a LOT of stuff in there that corresponds with what i learned in all my world history classes (before liberal teachers took over) and what archeologists are digging up in the middle east. My conclusion: while some stories might be exaggerated a little or told metaphorically, they are not innacurate. in fact, archiologists have found more lost cities and artifact sites by using the bible than any other document or source. Take the koran in contrast, that is just flat out plagerism and history revisionism. save this entry because i will not change my opinion when i run for office!
El Guapo on March 15, 2008 at 11:31 PM
Squid Shark
I knew it! “squid” should have sparked a clue. you’re navy! (as i sued to be). what are you doing inland (tennessee?) are you a detailer?
El Guapo on March 15, 2008 at 11:32 PM
NO no, FLorida friend.
There is a base in Millinton TN though.
Squid Shark on March 15, 2008 at 11:35 PM
Oh no I am with you there. I am a strong belive in the acheology of the Bible. I am Jewish after all :)
However, the reading in of prophesy to our books to justify some part of Christian Theology is what I dont buy.
Squid Shark on March 15, 2008 at 11:40 PM
Squid Shark
My bad! *Alcohol infuenced incident*
What ship you on? are the PC’s still on the east coast in norfolk? patrol crafts, not postal clerks.
El Guapo on March 15, 2008 at 11:42 PM
Ha!
Some of them are in Mayport, down here.
I was on a Destroyer out of Norfolk and a Frigate out of Mayport most recently.
Squid Shark on March 15, 2008 at 11:46 PM
I used to be on Typhoon PC-5. i heard they were assigned to help the coast guard and not longer wear cammies. that true? that cork in the water sure was fun to rid on.
El Guapo on March 15, 2008 at 11:49 PM
El Guapo, these captured terrorist do not have constutional protection.
Johan Klaus on March 15, 2008 at 11:52 PM
It is a shame that history is not taught anymore.
Johan Klaus on March 15, 2008 at 11:55 PM
Indeed they do not, still should be charged and tried no?
Squid Shark on March 15, 2008 at 11:55 PM
Eh, I got a pretty good edumacation in college :)
Squid Shark on March 15, 2008 at 11:56 PM
Squid Shark on March 15, 2008 at 9:47 PM
Just the facts of history. Read WW1 and WW2 history.
Johan Klaus on March 15, 2008 at 11:59 PM
You are absolutely correct! But that was not my point. In case some liberal wants to try to give them constitutional rights becuase they “are on US soil now”, well, then lets punish them according to the 16th Amendment. Put their butts to work, until death!
El Guapo on March 15, 2008 at 11:59 PM
INdeed, I am pretty sure of what you are driving out.
Squid Shark on March 16, 2008 at 12:10 AM
This old fart has got to hit sack. Later patriots.
Johan Klaus on March 16, 2008 at 12:20 AM
I forgot to mention that it was prophecied in your Bible that God’s own chosen people(The Jews)would be scattered for 2000 years because they rejected God’s Son, the gentiles would ironically be the ones who accept Him.
The God of the Israelites and the Gospel will be preached,by the gentiles, to the entire earth, before He returns.
If you read God’s Word, in your Bible, you will see that if Jesus Christ had not come to earth by the time of the destruction of the second temple, then either the Messiah came and no one noticed him, or God was lying to you and didn’t keep His promise.
God is the only good One. God will certainly keep His promises.
I noticed you went after the accuracy of the Scripture and didn’t answer my question about whether you have kept the Law of Moses 100% of the time, all your life.
SaintOlaf on March 16, 2008 at 12:30 AM
Chapter, verse, quotes please.
Squid Shark on March 16, 2008 at 12:38 AM
No I havent, and neither has anyone else…
I went after the accuracy because I was trying to nip the invevitable pitch ahead of the game. I have spent years deep in the Tanak and spent a great deal of my education on your gospels as well.
Not sold.
Squid Shark on March 16, 2008 at 12:41 AM
You placement of Jesus Christ where Messiah should be does not convince me that you are going to hit me with anything but your standard issue history.
The messiah was generally considered to be a leader, not a lamb.
The whole sacrifice and sin thing came following the death of Jesus as his followers tried to rationalize and fit this unexpected occasion into the mold. There were thousands of Messiahs, Jesus’ followers were the ones who figured out how to apologize his execution into existing Jewish messianism.
Squid Shark on March 16, 2008 at 12:45 AM
Isaih 55:5
Behold,thou shall call a nation that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel, for he hath glorified thee.
Here is a larger list of Scriptures answering your questions
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/messiah.htm
Daniel 9:24-26
http://www.geocities.com/cobblestoneministries/2006/Jews_Jesus.html
SaintOlaf on March 16, 2008 at 12:58 AM
Saint Olaf,
I took you for better than to quote me a nutter site like jesus-is-lord.com, your referencing them tells me alot.
That site was part of my research for the “fringe” Christianity thesis I defended at university.
As for the quotes, I am familiar with all of those on the list, you have a serious Eisegesis problem I am afraid.
Every time you quote the King James Bible, you loose me a little more BTW.
Squid Shark on March 16, 2008 at 1:08 AM
zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem,the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first born
SaintOlaf on March 16, 2008 at 1:15 AM
Eisegesis again.
Not that it is even agreed before Christianity that this was a prophesy about Messiah.
Squid Shark on March 16, 2008 at 1:24 AM
The problem is that’s it’s your self righteousness that blinds you to the hundreds and hundreds of obvious Scriptural references pointing out the fact that Jesus is the Messiah, Squid.
It’s not my “eisegesis problem”.
You think that man can, thru his own efforts, create an ideal society and that man can be perfect, as God’s law commands us to be.
I can see the parallel thought here.
It’s either that, or you think; somehow, we can break God’s Law and that we can just ask Him to forgive us and He will.
Tell me this; if an al qaeda terrorist guilty of murder says to the judge “yes I know I committed murder but I wanted to ask you to forgive me”.
Would you just let him go free or does he still deserve to be punished?
If the judge just let him go free…would he be a just judge?
No.
Someone has to pay.
This is what Jesus Christ does for us.
We can experience Grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
Don’t take the “kill the messager to avoid the question” route.
SaintOlaf on March 16, 2008 at 1:48 AM
Kill them quietly and tell no one. Burn their bodies, put the ashes in a drum filled with pig guts and secretly dump it at sea.
Administer justice but don’t let them get their propaganda victory.
rotorhead on March 16, 2008 at 2:25 AM
I would be worried that they would start proselytizing in prison where they would find a ready source of converts and would end up replicating their beliefs amongst inmates that are not serving the same life sentences. Once these inmates get out of prison they will be full blown homegrown jihadists capable of blending into American society like no foreign born Muslim can. No matter how we are able to isolate them from society they would have a lifetime in which to plant the seeds of jihadist theology. If they want to achieve martyrdom allowing them that honor would protect our society.
sanclemman on March 16, 2008 at 3:38 AM
Just wanted to say … well… basically… ditto’s to AP. I go back and forth on the death penalty thing but more and more I land on the anti side lately. Let em rot I say.
Dash on March 16, 2008 at 7:40 AM
I would venture that you have a streak of self righteousness masking as religious faith.
They are obvious to you, vauge and awfully convenient to me.
Squid Shark on March 16, 2008 at 9:28 AM
No I dont, as I said before. I dont believe Jesus is going to come and make it all better though.
Squid Shark on March 16, 2008 at 9:49 AM
What is the best way to truly hurt a masochist?
Tell them no when they beg you to beat them.
On this I have to agree with Mukasey. Executing them is what they would want because they would become martyrs who died for the jihad. Don’t give them what they want.
Nahanni on March 16, 2008 at 9:49 AM
When the messenger is so painfully unreliable, I think he may need to die.
My part of the bible is old, but its core has beem part of Jewish theology for thousands of years.
You “part” of the “bible”, or your “sequel” is a mish mash of greek stories and letters, cobbled together sometimes a few hundred years after the fact.
Forgive me if I am not buying your volcano insurance today.
I wish I didnt have to be so blunt with you….but you insisted.
Squid Shark on March 16, 2008 at 9:54 AM
I also think the correct word is masseuse :)
Squid Shark on March 16, 2008 at 9:58 AM
It doesn’t matter what we do to them. Muslims only care about their judgment by Allah, and only Allah can judge others. They have nothing but contempt for non-Muslims and so nothing a non-Muslim says or does means anything in the end.
Anything we do is just more proof of how horrible we are and how important the defense of Islam is to every Muslim.
There is no rule in Islam that does not have an “out” or some kind of exception to it.
Take Ramadan for example. It’s one of the Five Pillars and it has more exemptions than a 1040 form. This “fast” is anything but. All a Muslim has to do is not eat, smoke, or have sex from dawn to dusk. That’s my average day year round. (Well, not the smoking part but Muslims are not supposed to smoke anyway.) They only have to do it for a month and they get to eat and screw all night if they want. And they get a big celebration feast at the end of it.
But what does a poor Muslim do who lives in a place like Arctic Circle? Why, that’s easy. Just don’t look out the window.
The only real defense we have against Muslim supremacism is to have more respect for our own culture, country, and way of life, and to stop acting like we’re the bad guys.
Islam will win because Western Culture will let it.
Jaynie59 on March 16, 2008 at 10:45 AM
Actually, regarding death versus life, 50+ years of sausage for breakfast, BLT or ham sandwiches for lunch, and pork chops for dinner sounds to me like the best possibility for really punishing them.
flutejpl on March 16, 2008 at 12:35 PM
…. Dude!
Seven Percent Solution on March 16, 2008 at 4:02 PM
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