Video: Michelle vs. KP on whether Obama should cut ties to his pastor
posted at 7:22 pm on March 13, 2008 by Allahpundit
Send to a Friend |
Share on Facebook | printer-friendly
MM’s point about Obama adopting a cretin as his “spiritual guru” is well taken, but as loathsome as the good reverend is, I’m actually on Powers’s side on this one. The guilt-by-association game has gotten tiresome, with Josh Marshall’s attempt to hold McCain responsible for every objectionable word uttered by a conservative being the most imbecilic example. We all play it, me included, but I used to play the “every borderline joke by a liberal is a screaming outrage” game too and that’s also grown tedious. If Obama cut ties with Wright now, would you think any more or less of the sincerity of his objections to Wright’s demagoguery? Maybe he secretly has no problem with it or maybe he genuinely disagrees with it but puts up with it because Wright has compensating qualities which atone for his, um, blaming the U.S. for 9/11. Either way, your answer to the question depends on your assessment of Obama’s character and the die on that has already been cast. Same with McCain and Hagee. I don’t think Maverick hates Catholics so I don’t particularly care that he’s accepted Hagee’s endorsement, as long as he offers the pro forma stipulation that he disagrees with the Catholic stuff. These are all data points in the vote-weighing metric; the only data that comes from a politically expedient, ceremonial severing of the ties is that the candidate’s willing to do something politically expedient.
As for the first question asked here, whether Hillary’s been railroaded on some of the charges of racism against her or whether she’s pandering by apologizing now: yes.
Link: sevenload.com
Update: Another helpful reminder from Karl that Josh Marshall is an utter, abject hypocrite on this subject.
Update: Here’s the counterargument. Obama’s membership in Wright’s church differs from McCain accepting Hagee’s endorsement in the same way that belonging to a racist country club for 20 years differs from accepting, say, a “man of the year” award from the same club. Both suggest a certain comfort level with immoral beliefs, but one suggests a lot more comfort than the other. The guy who accepts the award might be a racist, or he might plausibly be an opportunist who simply wanted the award and was willing to cringe and shake a slimy hand to get it. What’s the excuse of the guy who’s a member? That is to say, there is guilt by association, but one is an association of expedience and one is an association of belief. Which is worse?
You must be logged in to post a comment.
Blowback
Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.
Trackbacks/Pings
Trackback URL
Comments
Comment pages: [1] 2 »
THE GLOVES ARE OFF!
malan89 on March 13, 2008 at 7:24 PM
The dems are already starting on McCain
William Amos on March 13, 2008 at 7:25 PM
atleast you were vindicated
jp on March 13, 2008 at 7:26 PM
He better be the reincarnation of Jesus Christ, in that case.
I would have to take the position that there’s a bit more “guilt by association” in this case because Wright isn’t simply a fellow Liberal or member of the same church as Obama. He’s Obama’s pastor, spiritual mentor, and avid supporter from the pulpit. He’s even responsible for the title of Obama’s book.
amerpundit on March 13, 2008 at 7:29 PM
Yeah I give a pass so long as any really out there stuff is clearly rejected. God knows (no pun intended) there are some real bomb throwers on the conservative side in the spiritual realm. I will say that this get’s done ALL THE TIME to Republicans, so it sure is fortuitous for Barack that people suddenly decide now’s the time to stop doing it.
Suffice to say I’d like to see it end on both sides.
Dash on March 13, 2008 at 7:30 PM
Umm, Obama CHOSE to support, donate and attend this idiots church for over a decade. How is that guilt by association? This may be the first time I have every disagreed with AP. If Obama thought it was wrong he could have left at any time.
Vigilante on March 13, 2008 at 7:31 PM
Dunno AP. Would you feel the same if it was McCain and say, David Duke?
ronsfi on March 13, 2008 at 7:32 PM
There is a difference between “association” and a spiritual leader.
I wouldn’t think even an atheist could miss that point.
Being spiritually led, looking up to and being “fed” by this mentor is different then being “associated” with him…don’t you think?
right2bright on March 13, 2008 at 7:33 PM
We are certainly not responsible for everything someone we know says, but the company we keep, especially when this stuff isn’t new, is certainly up for discussion.
elpresidente on March 13, 2008 at 7:34 PM
I think the correct corse isnt to link Obama and Wright but to ask Obama How are you really different than any other politicians ?
Rezko is far more a danger to Obama than this. But this will turn blue collar olded dems against Obama even more.
William Amos on March 13, 2008 at 7:35 PM
McCain has not attended Hagee’s church for 20 years. It’s a
huge difference.
I agree with Vigilante. I would have been long gone, say 19 years 264 days and 23 1/2 hours ago.
There’s no way to spin this, even if Obama disowns him now.
INC on March 13, 2008 at 7:36 PM
I left my church because I didnt like what was being taught nor did i like the people who went to church there…..and I have never been happier…If I can do it I know Michelle and Barak can do it because, hey, YES YOU CAN!
SoCalInfidel on March 13, 2008 at 7:37 PM
Because he says he doesn’t agree with the 9/11 and “kill whitey” crap. To which you might say, “What kind of compensating qualities could Wright have to make that sort of thing worth tolerating?” Fair point. That’s why I say this is a data point against him. It’s something to be weighed. But I don’t know Wright so I can’t say.
No, because no one would belong to a Duke organization for any reason except the hate. He’s a world famous white supremacist. It’s possible, though, that most of Wright’s sermons are mainstream Christian and Obama digs him for that reason. I don’t really know. Like I say, it’s up to you to decide based on his character. And the point stands about him the uselessness of cutting ties.
Allahpundit on March 13, 2008 at 7:38 PM
but if you have been there for 20 years, then yes, you are guilty by association….whether you like it or not (especially with what this guy preaches….he sounds like a kid throwing a temper tantrum because things arent going his way.)
SoCalInfidel on March 13, 2008 at 7:38 PM
I have to add the real cause of all this isnt Wright or Obama or Clinton. Its 40 to 50 years of racially divisive politics that have created an atmosphere where democratic politicians get elected by playing Identity politics.
This isnt a failure of one or evne a few democratic politicans. But of the entire democratic party and its tired old politics as usual.
William Amos on March 13, 2008 at 7:39 PM
Absolutely. My point is just that you can’t assume with total certainty that Obama approves of the “kill whitey” crap. That’s where the guilt by association comes in.
Allahpundit on March 13, 2008 at 7:39 PM
Obama and his relationship with his pastor an actively racist preacher isn’t even in the same league, hell the same game as an endorsement from Hagee imo
trailortrash on March 13, 2008 at 7:40 PM
AP, you are a complete tool(waterbucket?) if you can’t see the difference between Wright and Hagee.
ninjapirate on March 13, 2008 at 7:41 PM
CUT HIM OFF AS PASTOR?
Noooooooooo!!!!!!!!
Let him be Obi’s holy albatross a slong as possible, PLEEEEEEASE!!!!
Lockstein13 on March 13, 2008 at 7:42 PM
That being said, hey McCain: If your spiritual advisors have been on TBN, please stay far, far away from them.
ninjapirate on March 13, 2008 at 7:43 PM
sry my post was pretty much covered by the time i posted it, i had stepped away.
didnt mean to beat a racist i mean dead horse :)
trailortrash on March 13, 2008 at 7:44 PM
I do see the difference between them. One relationship is a lot more longstanding and personal than the other, which is something to be weighed. My point is, do you see the similarity between them? Each one says hateful things and each one is tolerated by a presidential candidate. Whether you think they’re tolerated because of, or in spite of, the hate depends on your take on Obama’s and McCain’s characters.
Allahpundit on March 13, 2008 at 7:44 PM
Bloggers damned if you do. And damned if you dont. Allah is guilty just for posting this and not getting too worked up about it. Talk about guilt by association. heh
William Amos on March 13, 2008 at 7:47 PM
Let me make one other point. One of the big reasons Marshall and the left are playing this “guilt by association” game with McCain is because they want to mainstream the technique for use against him this summer. There are in fact a few cranks within the GOP, just as there are within the Dems; if and when those cranks say something crankish and racist about Obama, the left will sell it to independents and undecideds as ipso facto proof that the GOP as a whole is racist. To the extent that you play the GBA game, you’re helping them legitimize that tool.
Allahpundit on March 13, 2008 at 7:47 PM
right2bright is correct. There is an entirely different relational dynamic here. Obama and his family are there listening to this guy “lead”/”mentor” them “spiritually.” You let someone lead you, that’s a bit more than guilt by association.
It’s not as if a buddy at work is mouthing off and you disagree with him.
INC on March 13, 2008 at 7:48 PM
Fair point. We don’t know what the rest of his sermons are like.
However, if a pastor spews this stuff even once in a while, I think its enough to leave the church. We have freedom of religion here. We are free to attend any church or not attend. We can leave any church whenever the pastors shows bad theology.
terryannonline on March 13, 2008 at 7:49 PM
how much money did Obama give to this ‘church’ in 2006, over $20K right?
if that isn’t approving of their message I don’t know what is.
jp on March 13, 2008 at 7:50 PM
I have to disagree. There is a difference. A big one. Obama chose Wright to be his spiritual leader. He chooses to go listen to what this man says and supports him financially to help him continue saying it.
Can the same be said for McCain or even Hillary?
I don’t think so.
.
GT on March 13, 2008 at 7:50 PM
I agree that there is a difference. Obama has publicly claimed that Wright is a mentor and spiritual advisor. Obama has attended the church for 20 years. Wright performed the Obama’s wedding ceremony and baptised their two daughters. Obama has overtly embraced Wright’s views…as has Obamarosa. Cutting ties publicly does nothing to diminish the fact that Obama has tacitly accepted the beliefs of Wright as his own.
Obama does not deserve to be the president. He’s a racist. I don’t want a racist to be the president of America.
ihasurnominashun on March 13, 2008 at 7:50 PM
If I heard a pastor say something like this once, I would talk with him immediately. If he said that’s the way it is, I would be gone.
INC on March 13, 2008 at 7:51 PM
there not “mainstream” christian by any means.
you can start with it being a Unitarian ‘church’…and then go into their racist theology for starters.
this church is on par with the Westboro Baptist cult, not Hagee
jp on March 13, 2008 at 7:52 PM
That’s a totally fair assumption. I don’t think Obama thinks, as Wright does, that whites are the devil, but he obviously doesn’t have a big problem with the idea. Just like he doesn’t have a problem with “ex”-terrorists like Bill Ayres. It all goes to character. But again, “Wright says X” = “Obama believes X” doesn’t compute.
Allahpundit on March 13, 2008 at 7:52 PM
Well McCain’s tolerance could have been out of complete ignorance. But considering he was up there with Rod Parsley…
Really, if McCain can walk the Christian walk and talk the Christian talk I don’t see why he feels the need to grab these worthless endorsements. It actually makes him look like a fake.
ninjapirate on March 13, 2008 at 7:53 PM
When you become a part of a church (or in this case, the term spiritual group is probably more accurate) you are are joining with them in a common understanding of belief and practice. While there may be some disagreement on some points, there should be agreement on major points of belief and practice. Otherwise, why would you even want to be a part of said group?
This is hardly a minor quibble, IMO.
INC on March 13, 2008 at 7:53 PM
AP, you can spin all day…you made an error in placing an “association” in the same plane as a spiritual mentor.
Because there is such a huge difference, so vast, the analogy should have never been made.
It is so different, I can’t even think of an analogy to compare.
How about this one…Like comparing someone who attended church 20 years ago, to someone who attends and currently embraces a pastor.
right2bright on March 13, 2008 at 7:55 PM
Would you give someone $20k to say something you didn’t approve of especially in light of the vitriol used to convey the message?
.
GT on March 13, 2008 at 7:56 PM
Doesn’t matter whether he cuts ties now. The time to cut ties was before they were forged or at least after an awakening to what he was dealing with.
baldilocks on March 13, 2008 at 7:57 PM
I think it’s just a little late to change churches mid race. Pastor whats-his-name is going to get a lot of attention in McCandidates TV spots.
DngrMse on March 13, 2008 at 7:58 PM
Well AP I Can tell you this, its obvious that Michelle Obama at the very least buys into some of this stuff. The hate America first, we deserved 9/11, and how she is “finally proud to be an american”. Her views and Wrights are that we havent moved in inch in this country as far as race relations go.
broker1 on March 13, 2008 at 7:58 PM
The race card players are trying to get Pat Buchanan fired from MSNBC for telling a lady to “SHUT UP”. He’s White and she’s black; therefore, he’s racist.
Not kidding.
SouthernGent on March 13, 2008 at 7:58 PM
Wright’s rhetoric is just NOI doctrine with Christ coating.
baldilocks on March 13, 2008 at 7:59 PM
Comparing Hagee to Wright is inappropriate. The correct comparison should be between Farrakhan and Hagee. Neither Obama nor McCain are members of either leader’s organization. Obama is a member of Wright’s church. As the leader of the church, Wright must consider his beliefs to be orthodox. The question then becomes whether Obama considers those beliefs to be orthodox as well. If not, should he not consider a different church?
rw on March 13, 2008 at 7:59 PM
I think you’re missing the point, Allah. The association with Wright is an issue that has a broader context - it’s not so much Obama agreeing with the “kill whitey crap”, it’s just another instance of his supporters and hanger-ons playing a racial shell-game of identity politics, while he’s able to sit back above the fray. He needs to be called for the antics of his people (and Wright is one of them), not so much to play a game of guilt-by-association, but to preemptively prevent (or discredit) what is going to happen in the general election - where so many legit criticisms of Obama are going to be twisted by the left (and the media, but perhaps I’m being redundant) as racial attacks (whether such a charge is ludicrous or not) by Republicans.
The race-baiting needs to be exposed and attacked now, so that if it crops up later, Obama’s discredited on the issue and unable to use it as a wedge.
Vyce on March 13, 2008 at 8:00 PM
It’s true that Obama has used race to his advantage.
Chakra Hammer on March 13, 2008 at 8:00 PM
I have never seen someone with such a weak record get so far.
Chakra Hammer on March 13, 2008 at 8:01 PM
That’s the point, if you sit in church and prescribe to the teaching, you can point out small differences or distance yourself from a sermon or two…but ultimately you are embracing the theology and doctrine of that specific church. It’s not like the Catholic church where the main body of the church may be out of step with the individual church, it is the individual church that guides your life. Whether he like a sermon or not, he is prescribing and following a specific theology spelled out weekly by his spiritual leader.
He has embraced that theology. He may not say whites are the devil, but he is embracing a church body that does…not one man, but the church body, their doctrine, their theology. And it is not “new” theology, this guys sermons are well documented.
right2bright on March 13, 2008 at 8:02 PM
You are right. Find the raw footage of the sermons on the web. The entire church was hooting and hollering and high fiving during his racial, anti-America rant. It’s obvious this was not an isolated incident and there is a “culture” at that church that the Obama’s HAD to be aware of.
Vigilante on March 13, 2008 at 8:03 PM
With KP. I can’t stand guilt-by-association, Ron Paul included. It’s intellectually weak and fundamentally dishonest.
However all questions regarding the ideas espoused by his pastor are fair game. Additionally, just from a numbers point of view, I doubt Michelle’s implication is correct. Meaning: if he cut himself off from the church it might cost him more votes then it would gain as it would be transparently political move at expense of consistency (and faith maybe).
Spirit of 1776 on March 13, 2008 at 8:04 PM
“I don’t think Maverick hates Catholics so I don’t particularly care that he’s accepted Hagee’s endorsement, as long as he offers the pro forma stipulation that he disagrees with the Catholic stuff.”
Yeah, but John McCain doesn’t go to church every Sunday with Mr. Hagee and get a steady dose of poison like Obama does either.
lsbblack on March 13, 2008 at 8:05 PM
Sorry, guy, but people don’t go to churches whose pastor espouses such radical beliefs unless they agree with the beliefs.
baldilocks on March 13, 2008 at 8:07 PM
I would add one more thought. Jefferson said our religion is written and demonstrated by our lives (paraphrased). What do Obama’s actions say?
Spirit of 1776 on March 13, 2008 at 8:09 PM
And its Hill n Bill n they’re party’s demagogy thats made it, forced the issue and thats come back to bit’em on the a$$.
Such sweet revenge, almost as sweet as Hill and Obama in an exact tie going into the convention. With the Obama Olympics starting to peak it could happen.
Speakup on March 13, 2008 at 8:11 PM
I think a good point made by Allah is about pure politics. “He ought to cut his ties…” Oh yeah? And what is going to happen then? Will people who are bringing this up now suddenly shut up? Of course, not. They will celebrate the victory and then proceed to ask him how come it’s taken him 20 years to understand the obvious. So if Michelle’s target audience is the conservatives, then I understand. But I hope she’s not seriously expecting liberals to take her “sincere advice” seriously. I think she is not.
I was actually surprised Obama was tied to a guy who says stuff like that. It’s noteworthy though that of all vile rhetoric that supposedly is spilled in that church on the daily basis, we have heard like 2 minutes altogether. Doesn’t excuse those words the least bit but I wonder if this guy is mostly bent on fighting institutional racism or if he’s truly a racist person.
At the end of the day, I think this line of attack is a two way street. Romney’s theology is unquestionably racist, however the practices of the church have evolved. If I truly believed Romney considered the Book of Mormon with the same rigor he applies to financial documents and honestly believed most of it, I would never support him. It’s just pure idiocy.
If Obama can convincingly explain what positive input he received from his church, everything else will not matter.
freevillage on March 13, 2008 at 8:12 PM
But my point is, we don’t know what the breakdown is between the radical stuff and the non-radical stuff. Maybe it’s a drop in the bucket. Or maybe Obama got to know the guy before he realized how radical he was and developed enough of a personal affection for him that he stayed on in spite of it.
Allahpundit on March 13, 2008 at 8:12 PM
here is the Churches website: http://www.tucc.org/about.htm
We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black…….
jp on March 13, 2008 at 8:13 PM
Would you hand over $20,000 to someone you don’t know?
.
GT on March 13, 2008 at 8:15 PM
Excuuuuuuse me.
If “guilt by association” is a non-starter, bad, weak or whatever, why is it that the Democrats have constantly used this “political vehicle” (for lack of better words) for decades?
The jerks simply can’t stand a taste of their own medicine.
LET ‘EM CHOKE ON IT. This pastor-b*stard is lightyears beyond Willie Horton material, the Dems know it and are scared poopless (propriety! propreity! oh my!).
Lockstein13 on March 13, 2008 at 8:15 PM
Right.
Yeah, “absolute certainty” is a pretty weird standard. I don’t know with absolute certainty that everyone who supports David Duke dislikes black people, but I’m still not voting for the guy.
What we do know with absolute certainty is that when Obama came to the church, this racist pos was already there, and already spewing his anti-American, anti-white filth, and that Obama was so enamored of him that he publicly claims him as his “spiritual mentor”.
Obama doesn’t even have a Sister Souljah opportunity here, since most of the sermons that are being uncovered are dated and he has continued to support this maggot long after his racism and radicalism were manifest.
This isn’t guilt by association any more than membership in the John Birch Society would be.
Jaibones on March 13, 2008 at 8:16 PM
Bing.
Jaibones on March 13, 2008 at 8:17 PM
Drat…meant to hit the “preview” button. Trying this again…
Would you hand over $20,000 to someone you don’t know.
Would you be making those same excuses if Fred Phelps were McCain’s pastor?
.
GT on March 13, 2008 at 8:18 PM
They still have Wright listed as the pastor on the website:
http://www.tucc.org/pastor.htm
I thought he left in January?
jp on March 13, 2008 at 8:21 PM
Or he attended this church because he knew the pastor from a large church will endorse him from the pulpit while running for office in Illinois. Which means he’s just like any other politician, he can’t even choose a church with keeping politics in mind.
terryannonline on March 13, 2008 at 8:21 PM
bingo…….you also don’t give alot of $ to a man like this , make him your ’spiritual’ advisor, let him baptize your kids and so on. If you don’t on some level agree with him.
the truth here is Obama is a very very slick politician.
jp on March 13, 2008 at 8:26 PM
And our point is that in a Christian church–one in which Christ crucified and resurrected is preached–the breakdown is between the radical stuff and the non-radical stuff should be 100 to 0. There is no “kill whitey” in Christianity and only one path to forgiveness and redemption.
And no damning any individual or entity from the pulpit.
baldilocks on March 13, 2008 at 8:26 PM
Also, a pastor/mentor relationship isn’t just any mere ‘association.’
mentor:
1capitalized : a friend of Odysseus entrusted with the education of Odysseus’ son Telemachus
2 a: a trusted counselor or guide b: tutor, coach
baldilocks on March 13, 2008 at 8:33 PM
I have a theory. I think Obama likes this church because it makes him “authentic” in the eyes of black folks. He is, ahem, only half-black and has lived an extremely privileged life that many blacks (and Whites) can only dream of. While I certainly lean to believing he believes what this guys says, which is why he started going there, it wouldn’t surprise me if he kept going for political gain in the oddity that is Chicago politics.
On another note, I left my church when the preacher kept saying gays are going to Hell because I’m gay and I don’t think I’m going to Hell. I couldn’t take the guilt trip anymore, so I left and have never looked back.
SouthernGent on March 13, 2008 at 8:34 PM
Here’s the church that McCain attends: http://www.npbc.org/
It’s Southern Baptist, but they don’t advertise that on their website.
According to this, 25% of that congregation is Hispanic, another 15% are a different minority, while the rest(60%) are white. Has over 8,000 members.
ninjapirate on March 13, 2008 at 8:35 PM
Yeah, any black person will consider you authentic only if you frequent their church. Unlike whites they don’ care about much else. It’s their black thing.
BTW aren’t you just amazed at how racist the liberals are?
freevillage on March 13, 2008 at 8:42 PM
I am So with MM here. Obama is definitely not to be taken seriously as disaaociating himself from Farrakhan and racism when he has been going to a church where his pastor stands for racism and gives awards to Farrakhan.
I have been saying this for a long time. Staying for 20 yrs with this church and pastor, tells you who Obama is.
I have left churches for much smaller reasons than these. He obviously agrees these views with his pastor Wright as does his wife. Their children were baptized there.
The Obamas are so not Presidential material and it can not be compared to Geraldine’s comment.
Conservatives R Us on March 13, 2008 at 8:44 PM
First off, what church even cares about the racial breakdown of their congregation?
Second, would the real AP please stand up, please stand up. There is no way this is Allah posting. Someone must have gotten ahold of his username and password.
Vigilante on March 13, 2008 at 8:44 PM
At least Sean Hannity can feel vindicated since he’s been harping on this for about 2 months now. Jack Kemp basically told him last night to get another topic. Sorry, Jack….you’re late as usual.
SouthernGent on March 13, 2008 at 8:46 PM
this dropping now has to be a Clinton setup.
Send Ferraro out there to say what she said, get the MSM to take the bait and condemn it.
then, rollout this 3 month old Obama pastor videos to try and force the MSM to cover it….
should’ve done this after the SC meltdown Bill..
jp on March 13, 2008 at 8:54 PM
Let’s see if I have this right:
1)BMO selected this church/leader about 20 years ago.
2)BMO has supported this church financially for 20 years
3)BMO is so impressed he has this leader marry them.
4)BMO and Michelle have this leader baptize their offspring.
5)BMO and Michelle trust this church to teach their offspring.
6)Michelles comments make more sense after hearing sermons.
Guilt by association?
ROTFLMAO
LCL4 on March 13, 2008 at 9:01 PM
If Obama and his supporters are going to cry racist at every imaginable insult and demand and get opponents to fire their staff, damn right I want to see BHO give this race baiter the boot.
Blake on March 13, 2008 at 9:03 PM
f Obama and his supporters are going to cry racist at every
imaginableimagined insult and demand and get opponents to fire their staff, damn right I want to see BHO give this race baiter the boot.Blake on March 13, 2008 at 9:04 PM
I can’t believe someone would go to a church led by this guy for 20 years - much less take his children there - and much less be a serious candidate for the Presidency.
Midas on March 13, 2008 at 9:10 PM
Sorry AP you are out to lunch on this one. After hearing many more of the rants of this man, BO should have shucked him long ago. To have your children baptized, get married, donate five figure offerings is affirming the man and all he stands for. Better listen to the wisdom of your boss. She transcends you here.
wepeople on March 13, 2008 at 9:19 PM
This is not going away no matter how KP spins it from the left or Allah from the right.
8straight on March 13, 2008 at 9:21 PM
He can do whatever he wants to do. I have no idea if he agrees with this sort of hateful speech, but it really doesn’t matter.
It obviously does not offend him. That says enough.
Asher on March 13, 2008 at 9:33 PM
“Total certainty”? Seriously, where in the Hell did that come from? That’s an incredibly bizarre standard to use.
Do you even see what you’re doing here? You’re implying that it’s somehow unfair to question something that BarackObama did unless we first make sure that he has a ready defense.
Again, the threshold criteria you apply before anyone is allowed to criticize BarackObama is utterly impossible to meet.
Jeez, this Messiah business is getting totally out of hand. Before you know it, people are going to start screaming that even saying BarackObama’s NAME is somehow “unfair” to the poor guy!
logis on March 13, 2008 at 9:33 PM
Ah Yes, the wonderfulness that is known as identity politics.
Know all about it.
We got that going on here in Detroit, Right Now.
There are times, When I wish we HAD listened to Strom Thurmond. AND Elected trent lott for President. We might have been in a much better way.
I know that sounds wrong as all get out. But It’s how a feel…
:-/
WayWard Fundamentalist Christian on March 13, 2008 at 9:34 PM
OOPS! Make that, it’s how I feel.
WayWard Fundamentalist Christian on March 13, 2008 at 9:35 PM
This isn’t an “association”, it’s a 23 year-old partnership. I’m personally sick of the double standard exhibited by the MainStreamMedia where every time another loon is exposed on the Obama campaign, from his personal life, or he or his wife actually let slip what they mean, the MSMs rush to declare that Barack Hussein Obama “distances himself”… as if the assembly of the lunatic fringe Barack Hussein Obama has been immersed with for all these years doesn’t give us the only insight into the man beyond his vacuous platitudes about “hope” and “change”.
DANEgerus on March 13, 2008 at 9:37 PM
Now maybe I know the reasoning for no flag pin in Barry’s. lapel and being silent when others are reciting the Pledge of Allegiance with his hands at his sides. Now that makes me go hmmmmm… IMHO
USMCDevilDog on March 13, 2008 at 9:38 PM
I’m sure Barry doesn’t want the Warth of Pastor Wright coming down on him.
USMCDevilDog on March 13, 2008 at 9:40 PM
i’d like to know what type of philosophy he’s studied…Macheavelli?
jp on March 13, 2008 at 9:41 PM
Alan Colmes IS off tonight. ;-)
SouthernGent on March 13, 2008 at 9:42 PM
AP, Mitt Romney and John McCain have already refuted your argument. They have made the common argument of the the religionists that they have no responsibility for the beliefs of their religion, however stupid or evil those beliefs. Religion is simply good. Thus, Obama’s religion is out of bounds, just like Mitt Romney’s Mormonism or Ibrahim Hooper’s Islam. And if an illegal immigrant Mexican gang decided to worship their ancestral gods that demand human sacrifice by killing blond six year old girls, you’d be racist for mentioning it.
thuja on March 13, 2008 at 9:46 PM
Maybe all politicians, like McCain, should be careful in what religious leaders endorse by. Of course, McCain doesn’t agree with everything Hagee has said before just like Obama doesn’t agree with everything Rev. Wright has said in the past. I don’t think anyone is saying that here. Maybe, politicians would stop using churches to get votes and preachers would stop using their religious titles for political influence.
terryannonline on March 13, 2008 at 9:55 PM
Must have read The Prince by N.Machiavelli
USMCDevilDog on March 13, 2008 at 9:59 PM
This isn’t guilt by association. This is guilt by partnership.
Right, I mean look at the Church’s mission statment and everything surrounding it. These things aren’t like ‘do dogs go to Heaven?’ type stuff.
- The Cat
MirCat on March 13, 2008 at 10:09 PM
We should be so lucky. It looks a lot more like the philosophy of Malcom X (whose middle name by the way was NOT Hussien.)
logis on March 13, 2008 at 10:13 PM
Forget the guilt and forget the association. Obama has two young children whose moral, emotional and intellectual growth he is responsible for. And he regularly submits them to the hate and racism by which this church defines itself. All of his high minded talk means nothing next to hes actions. With his childrens souls he has voted for a divided America. And he seems to think he can slow play and finesse this. We’ll see.
snaggletoothie on March 13, 2008 at 10:20 PM
Jumping in here. . .
When I’ve chosen the Pastor I sit under I choose very carefully. His influence is large in my life, and what he points out in Scripture is something I deeply consider.
AP, this is why McCain/Hagee is something entirely different from Obama/Wright. Obama chose to sit under this vile hatemonger’s teaching - for. years. He thinks so much of Wright that he and Michelle asked this bigot to marry them.
This could explain Michelle’s anti-American rhetoric. She’s not as skilled at hiding the hate as Obama is. Barak needs to state unequivically whether or not he supports this view of America.
The Ritz on March 13, 2008 at 10:28 PM
While I certainly think evangelicals have been distracted from their true mission by being so eager to court politicians, I’m very antagonistic toward the notion that the religious should be excluded from the political process. All that accomplishes is to create a new group of 2nd class citizens - not the right policy for a country that excluded huge blocks of it’s citizenry from politics until only 40 years ago!
The Ritz on March 13, 2008 at 10:38 PM
AP,
Thanks for the Protein Wisdom link.
As for your question:
First, I would ask what Obama’s “objections” have been. He has said generally that he does not always agree with Wright. He has publicly expressed views that differ from Wright’s on occasion. But “object?” Not so much.
Second, I will refer everyone to the New York Times piece on Wright from last April:
That piece was published after Obama had disinvited Wright to give the invocation on the day of Senator Obama’s presidential announcement. They prayed together privately before the event, and camp Obama still speaks of Obama’s “affection” for Wright.
Karl on March 13, 2008 at 10:47 PM
The relationship between Wright and Obama is much closer than the one between McCain and Hagee.
Isn’t it?
I guess I’m agreeing with the last update.
misterpeasea on March 13, 2008 at 10:54 PM
Allah:
As you frequently are: You’re all wet.
There IS guilt in association, and for good reason. Those with whom one chooses to associate, speak volumes for that person, for their views and their values.
BHO’s choice in pastor, his choice to remain with that pastor following each and every hate-filled, racist diatribe of Wright’s, and his choice to put him in his campaign — “associating” with Wright each step of the way — tells me more than I need to know about BHO’s character and his views, even if I knew nothing else.
seanrobins on March 13, 2008 at 11:20 PM
Great point. Dead.Spot.On. What an unbelievable hypocrite.
Jaibones on March 13, 2008 at 11:34 PM
Great point about Michelle Obama. Her college thesis that Allah was so quick to disregard wondered how she might reconcile her blackness with this Princeton world?
This would seem to be the very core philosophy of Wright’s Church of Blackness: that you can’t be “middle class” and “black” at the same time.
And I find nothing about their racist views funny.
Jaibones on March 13, 2008 at 11:40 PM
Comment pages: [1] 2 »