Video: Michelle vs. KP on whether Obama should cut ties to his pastor
posted at 7:22 pm on March 13, 2008 by Allahpundit
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MM’s point about Obama adopting a cretin as his “spiritual guru” is well taken, but as loathsome as the good reverend is, I’m actually on Powers’s side on this one. The guilt-by-association game has gotten tiresome, with Josh Marshall’s attempt to hold McCain responsible for every objectionable word uttered by a conservative being the most imbecilic example. We all play it, me included, but I used to play the “every borderline joke by a liberal is a screaming outrage” game too and that’s also grown tedious. If Obama cut ties with Wright now, would you think any more or less of the sincerity of his objections to Wright’s demagoguery? Maybe he secretly has no problem with it or maybe he genuinely disagrees with it but puts up with it because Wright has compensating qualities which atone for his, um, blaming the U.S. for 9/11. Either way, your answer to the question depends on your assessment of Obama’s character and the die on that has already been cast. Same with McCain and Hagee. I don’t think Maverick hates Catholics so I don’t particularly care that he’s accepted Hagee’s endorsement, as long as he offers the pro forma stipulation that he disagrees with the Catholic stuff. These are all data points in the vote-weighing metric; the only data that comes from a politically expedient, ceremonial severing of the ties is that the candidate’s willing to do something politically expedient.
As for the first question asked here, whether Hillary’s been railroaded on some of the charges of racism against her or whether she’s pandering by apologizing now: yes.
Link: sevenload.com
Update: Another helpful reminder from Karl that Josh Marshall is an utter, abject hypocrite on this subject.
Update: Here’s the counterargument. Obama’s membership in Wright’s church differs from McCain accepting Hagee’s endorsement in the same way that belonging to a racist country club for 20 years differs from accepting, say, a “man of the year” award from the same club. Both suggest a certain comfort level with immoral beliefs, but one suggests a lot more comfort than the other. The guy who accepts the award might be a racist, or he might plausibly be an opportunist who simply wanted the award and was willing to cringe and shake a slimy hand to get it. What’s the excuse of the guy who’s a member? That is to say, there is guilt by association, but one is an association of expedience and one is an association of belief. Which is worse?
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Somebody’s been listening to Mark Levin. :-)
baldilocks on March 13, 2008 at 11:48 PM
So, when Obama listens to this pastor preach, does the White half of him feel convicted and the Black half feel oppressed?
29Victor on March 13, 2008 at 11:49 PM
“The guilt-by-association game has gotten tiresome,…”
Would this be the attitude if a candidate belonged to the Westboro Baptist Church?
The issue is simple. If anyone who was not a racist went to a church whose pastor started preaching the nonsense that Reverend Wright preaches, they would immediately leave that church and find a new one, not continue to attend and consider that preacher a mentor.
I don’t see how this is so difficult to understand. This is not “guilt by association” such as some other “conservative” giving an endorsement. This is a person attending a racist church by choice and considering the racist pastor a mentor.
As I said, anyone else who was not a racist, would immediately leave their church and find another one if their pastor started spouting the nonsense that Reverend Wright preaches.
So why are you giving Obama a pass? Why does anyone give Obama a pass on this?
Michael in MI on March 14, 2008 at 12:01 AM
I don’t believe that the phrase “guilt by association” applies here. That phrase has come to imply a loose association, but a man’s association with his spiritual leaders is a very strong one.
For one thing, this pastor is a man who would have been deciding, and perhaps preparing, what Obama’s children would be learning in Sunday School, and whatever other programs they might have.
And it doesn’t stop at association with that pastor. Listen to the crowd when the pastor is saying those outrageous things. That’s Obama’s church family. The statements that this pastor was making are a part of their world view. A part that makes them clap and shout “hallelujah.”
This is the hateful atmosphere that Obama called home and raised his family for twenty years.
I have walked out of churches for less than what this pastor said. And if my current pastor, whom I respect very much, said that Jews killed Jesus because Jews are evil, or any other racist comment, or d*** America. Then I would confront him, and if he didn’t retract it later in public, of if the church didn’t fire him for saying such things, then my family and I would be looking for another church.
29Victor on March 14, 2008 at 12:02 AM
AP. your slip is showing. Are you giving Kirsten or Obama a pass ?
SIJ6141 on March 14, 2008 at 12:09 AM
Forget the guilt and forget the association. Obama has two young children whose moral, emotional and intellectual growth he is responsible for. And he regularly submits them to the hate and racism by which this church defines itself. All of his high minded talk means nothing next to his actions. With his childrens souls he has voted for a divided America. And he seems to think he can slow play and finesse this. We’ll see.
snaggletoothie on March 13, 2008 at 10:20 PM
funky chicken on March 14, 2008 at 12:21 AM
Sorry, can’t give Obama a pass on his preacher. He looks to the preacher for guidence, for both himself and his family. I assume he contributes money to the church to support this message. Simple fact, people do not continue to attend church where they don’t agree with the message. By continuing to attend he indicates he agrees with the pastor.
Buford on March 14, 2008 at 12:28 AM
Obama is allowing this minister to spiritually advise his children. Is this hate what Obama wants his children to embrace?
I went to a church where our minister came out with statements supporting the belief that the holocaust didn’t happen. I found another church for our family to go to. Obama should have done the same if he truly didn’t believe that hate coming from his minister’s mouth. And if Obama doesn’t agree with his minister, what does it say about Obama is he allows the hate to go unopposed?
katieanne on March 14, 2008 at 12:31 AM
If he’s sat through sermon after sermon over the course of 20 years then he believes and agrees with Wright.
Domino on March 14, 2008 at 12:36 AM
Michael in MI on March 14, 2008 at 12:01 AM
Also, I believe Barack Obama was married by this Pastor and his children were Blessed by this pastor. This is not equivalent to an endorsement that a candidate did not seek out. Barack Obama sought out this pastor and has been going to his church for 10+ years and Reverend Wright has been his mentor and spiritual advisor for at least that long as well. He has helped to shape his view of racism in America.
Barack Obama should be asked flat out why he has been associated with this man and his racist church all these years. He should be asked, if he is not a racist, why would he continue attending this obviously racist Church. Again, anyone else – who is not a racist – would leave such a Church. Barack Obama not only stayed, but considers this man his mentor.
If I considered the pastor of the Westboro Baptist Church my mentor, I would expect people to consider me a hater of homosexuals (and a complete loon).
Michael in MI on March 14, 2008 at 12:37 AM
Okay. Leave the pastor’s comments out of the equation. But how about Michelle Obama’s statements: “first time really proud of my country,” “US is a mean country,” etc. Everyone gave her a pass saying it just sounded bad and wasn’t really what she intended to say. Then, lo and behold, her comments and the worst possible interpretation of those comments dovetails perfectly with what her pastor of 20 years, who married her, who baptized her children, has been preaching to her for the past 20 years.
Even if no guilt by association is allowed, can I at least still use this data point to interpret other facts still on the relevancy scale?
tommylotto on March 14, 2008 at 12:38 AM
Exactly. You do not continue to attend a Church unless you believe in what the leaders of the Church are preaching. Period. I’m not sure why AllahPundit (and some others) is missing this very simple concept.
If I attended Black Panther meetings and CODE PINK meetings and Weather Underground meetings an other anti-America organization meetings for 10+ years, would I be able to get away with saying “just because they believe in that stuff, and I have been a member of their organizations for 10+ years, does not mean that I believe it myself. For you to accuse me of such does not compute.”
This is not an “association”. Barack Obama belongs to this Church and has made the decision to stay a member of this Church for the past 20 years. Logic states that he believes in what is preached at the Church. I don’t understand what is so difficult to understand about that. This is not a smear of “guilt by association”. He is a member – and has been a member for 20 years – of a racist Church. That is a fact, not a smear.
Michael in MI on March 14, 2008 at 12:44 AM
Man am I embarrassed that I defended AP against someone who accused him of being an Obama supporter in another thread.
Wright took a sabbatical and joined the Obama campaign in an advisory role. Guilt by association, hell no. Obama is carrying this racist hatemonger right along with him. In his chest pocket. Near where you might expect to see an American flag lapel pin.
RushBaby on March 14, 2008 at 12:45 AM
My thoughts exactly.
AP = FAIL
Ugly on March 14, 2008 at 1:14 AM
Mccain was just enfdorsed by a second nutbag, but again neither he nor Obama can be held responsible for the act of another.
It’s a Disciples of Christ Church, not really that radical by usual standards, I mean they ran the commercial accepting gays into the fold on National TV 2 years ago. Now some of you might find that radical, I do not. I find gay hatin’ fire and brimstone Hagee types much more radical.
Moreover, most militant black churches – like the kind we have in Harlem would never invite anything of homosexual nature into the fold – male or female – they would shoot on site. Most radically religiously endoctrinated with evangelism black Christians consider homosexually fornication with a capital F.
This is far more radical and hateful? This is a radical black church that would like to clear all white people out of Harlem, including Bill Clinton.
I had sent the link to Michelle and Allah a while back because I felt it was newsworthy, but no one was covering it.
Every weekend this pastor plasters W125th street with the postcards decrying the man, including Bubba.
I think Obama’s minister is equally sick, don’t get me wrong, I am hardly defending him. He obviously took a very personal wrong turn with his congregation in such a liberal church, I am shocked that the Disciples of Church haven’t said anything.
Rev Jim Jones was also a member, with the People’s Temple, and they distanced themselves from him and his followers.
AprilOrit on March 14, 2008 at 1:26 AM
This loon hates Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, the white President of Citibank, Charlie rangel, all the black Assemblymen in Harlem, Calvin Butts, Billy Jeff, David Dinkins and every white person who has the nerve to stink up his neighborhood.
The Witch Doctor Project is especially looney – Exposing the Magnificent Seven – Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Bill Clinton, T.D. Jakes, Louis Farrakan, Don King, and Cornell West, the American witch doctors.
This guy not only hates whites and jews and even hates Calypso Louie who hates the jews.
I would imagine he probably hates Barack Obama as well and thinks he’s an Uncle Tom.
And whats even scarier is that this is just one of many in Harlem, there are tons of them.
Antisemitism and white hatin’ race baiters in NYC circa 2008 are alive and well.
AprilOrit on March 14, 2008 at 1:38 AM
Good God, I guess this nut did get coverage, no wonder John Gibson was canned, he mainstreamed this kind of nutjob.
And he is not supporting Obama, not black enough, degraded by white ancestors. No race mixing allowed.
These types should not get airtime, period.
AprilOrit on March 14, 2008 at 1:54 AM
It’s the United Church of Christ which is partnered with the Disples of Christ.
I am writing a letter to them to ask why this pastor is allowed to rail against white people when they ran TV ads 2 years ago stating they were open to all, i.e. those ads that welcomed gays into their fold.
And why are they not calling out Obama’s congregation the way they called out Jim Jones and the Peoples Temple for their rasdical behavior?
AprilOrit on March 14, 2008 at 2:20 AM
It’s not guilt by association, it’s guilt by membership. As a member of the church, he agrees with the church’s position. There are plenty of churches in Chicago, yet he chooses to attend this church. This church is no different than a KKK meeting. No cutting off from Wright will be enough. He’s made his bed. Sleep in it. He’s done.
ElderEdda on March 14, 2008 at 2:48 AM
I’m with the majority here- this is way more than guilt by association. Remember- Obama attended this church and it had such an impact on him that this is where he found is faith. I believe he had been encouraged to join a church for some time while he was doing work in the community and he said that he always backed off- until he went there and was so moved by what he heard that he joined.
He obviously found some meaning in what he listened to then and has been listening to for the years that followed.
As as some have pointed out above- this is where he takes his children!
If he truly was a patriot who loved his country he would have gotten up the first time he heard any of that “God damn America” nonsense and walked right out.
There’s no excuse- and guilt by association doesn’t even begin to cut it. He chose to go there and continue going there when he knew what Wright was like.
Jay Mac on March 14, 2008 at 6:01 AM
That Obama continues to take his children to this church is a tacit endorsement of both the church and the pastor.
He has some ’splainin’ to do.
drjohn on March 14, 2008 at 7:49 AM
The ‘guilt by association’ ploy is not meant to cause a disassociation, and then they’re peachy-keen if they do…it is meant solely to point out how unsuitable the person is no matter what they do about it because of the company that they kept…because they didn’t disassociate on their own.
That being said, it is perfectly legitimate to judge people this way because it demonstrates their personal integrity, or lack thereof. Integrity is doing the right thing when nobody’s looking. You don’t suddenly become a person of integrity when you’re under the microscope…by that time it’s too late.
James on March 14, 2008 at 7:50 AM
Michael in MI on March 14, 2008 at 12:01 AM
Exactly.
eforhan on March 14, 2008 at 8:17 AM
Sorry. I would not tolerate such a thing from my pastor. If I was looking for a church and on a visit heard this tripe, that would make my decision for me. If my pastor disgraced the pulpit and his calling with this junk, he’d no longer be my pastor. I would not go to such a man for spiritual guidance.
abcurtis on March 14, 2008 at 9:44 AM
Amazing. Canidates that do not know what their “closest” associates are capable of saying or have said and acting surprised when they hear it indicates an unhealthy closeness -remember many think you can get a STD from the toilet seat.
MSGTAS on March 14, 2008 at 10:02 AM
Just heard Obama’s religious leader spew his hate and it dawned on me that the voice was either that of Lewy Freakenon doing a voice over of the sermon, or that this minister of HATE is the speech writer for Screwy Lewy who does voice overs for Screwy Lewy.
The bottom line is the Demoncrates have taken hate speech to a new low and still have the ability to claim it’s ‘free speech’. This is the definition of delusional as laid out in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM)
MSGTAS on March 14, 2008 at 10:18 AM
Even more telling than what Obama’s preacher preaches is Obama’s RESPONSE to this.
Stentorian gibberish works perfectly fine as long as no one questions it. But that can’t defend you from criticism.
Think about it: Not counting parodies, have you ever heard anyone actually QUOTE BarackObama? Doesn’t happen. As long as all they need to do is bolster B.O.’ Messianic standing, Obama’s acolytes can just endlessly gush about how darned “articulate” he is. And that works perfectly fine.
But, although Messiahs cannot be questioned, all politicians eventually are. Attacks against BarackObama may be astoundingly rare, but they will come. And when they do, his supporters will need to rely on HIS words to explain his actions.
And when people without such messianic voices try to say the exact same things that Obama says, they always end up sounding like drooling cretins.
logis on March 14, 2008 at 10:50 AM
The last time I read my Bible, Messiahs can get questioned, and they can get crucified right after they give their answers.
I’ll comment on AP’s last update. Association by convenience isn’t great, but association by commitment is far worse. Membership and financial support to the tune of $22,000 per annum is far worse than standing next to a slimeball for five minutes, shaking his hand, and thanking him for his support.
Often in history, people have had to make less than savory associations in order to get the job done. Just ask FDR about allying with Stalin during WWII or dropping the bomb for clear as daylight examples. Just ask Dubya about opening up relations with Pakistan after 9/11/01! There’s a marriage made in hell if we’ve ever seen one, and yet it’s rather necessary. I’m not one to say that the ends justify the means always, but, in these three circumstances I’ve cited, the ends are absolutely vital.
Before one says that McCain shaking Hagee’s hand is less of a situation than what I just mentioned, think again. McCain understands that we are in a war that MUST be won, and the other side intends to surrender it. He also understands that, no matter what Rasmussen polls are currently saying, he has to fight like an underdog in this election if he is going to win it. If Hagee is the least savory guy whose support McCain is going to need, I think he’ll count himself lucky.
flutejpl on March 14, 2008 at 12:01 PM
I think another major problem with the Obama relationship is that this man has acted in an advisory role, Obama has profited financially from their relationship by using slogans from Wright for books, Wright has furthered his hate speech with money from Obama, etc.
This is the soul of a man, and while it gets easy to just dismiss the outrage as typical left/right-wing talking points, I think this is something that could really touch independents. Those weak moderates among us who don’t follow politics every day and aren’t truly tired of all the faux-scandals that are created day in and day out.
NeoconNews.com on March 14, 2008 at 12:17 PM
Been listening to this crap for a few days now. Belonging to this Black Panther organization for twenty years, and calling the Reverend a spiritual adviser. This sure explains some of Mrs. Obama being so full of hate for the country that has given her so much. How are his children accepting this hate filled sermon? All you are lacking here is white robes and hoods, and perhaps a burning cross in the background to make the picture complete.
pueblo1032 on March 14, 2008 at 12:23 PM
No, no. You’re talking about the BAD racism.
The congregation that BarackObama is a charter member of only believe in the GOOD kind of racism.
logis on March 14, 2008 at 12:47 PM
“I’m actually on Powers’s side on this one.” SUR-priiiise, SUR-prise! AP’s too young to know where that comes from, but it fits anyway…I have a brother who argues for the sake of argument, but at least he doesn’t side with ‘pretty’ blonds just because their lip gloss stays put while they try to sound intelligent and reasonable.
I’m with Michelle, and 29Victor.
“I don’t believe that the phrase “guilt by association” applies here. That phrase has come to imply a loose association, but a man’s association with his spiritual leaders is a very strong one.”
Christine on March 14, 2008 at 12:51 PM
Yes, this explains why Michelle Obama-rama said that, as a black man, her husband takes his life in his hands when he pumps gas. She could have come up with this on her own, (she’s a looney), but it must make it easier when your ‘pastor’ is a self-righteous black racist.
Christine on March 14, 2008 at 12:56 PM
Oh, but don’t pay any attention to her. As Obama says, she’s just a “crazy old man.” Plus, they’ve only known each other for twenty years, so you can’t just “cherry pick” her words and assume that some of them actually mean what they clearly say.
This is all just more of that darned “guilt by association” stuff, and I simply won’t listen to a word of it!
logis on March 14, 2008 at 1:18 PM
All this schtick about ‘guilt by association’ is just pc drivel. When you look at BO’s shady dealings with Rezko, Ayers and Wright doncha think that they should have been ‘put behind him’ before he even started to run for Prez. I think, (shock, shock), that Barak has not been properly vetted.
Having said that, no matter how hard BO tries to distance himself from these people at this late date, ‘it’s too late baby, now, it’s too late, tho you really did try to make it’.
Christine on March 14, 2008 at 3:28 PM
And. logis, I hear your sarcasm and would join you if you hadn’t dome it so well. ;-)
Christine on March 14, 2008 at 3:33 PM
Most organized Christian churches have a process of when you apply for membership, and if you have been baptized, you meet with the pastor/priest/minister for a number of sessions. When they are convinced that your understanding of the Word follows the tenets of their faith and charter of their church, they will pass your request on to a group of elders that will vote on your membership. It’s a tad bit more than just deciding to be a member, in most cases. If you’ve ever read the website and the mission statement for Wright’s “church”, there is no way Obama can deny what the it is about. The fact he knew it and proceeded to become a member is chilling.
24K lady on March 14, 2008 at 4:47 PM
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