Quote of the day
posted at 10:48 pm on March 13, 2008 by Allahpundit
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This leads us to perhaps the strongest argument against atheism, which D’Souza makes only indirectly—the argument from experience. Atheism cannot reach our hearts. A rigorous atheist cannot console in a time of grief, cannot explain love, cannot sigh in happy wonder at life’s endless surprises. He can only utter, “What is, is.”
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My Fave
http://www.thebigview.com/spacetime/universe.html
ronsfi on March 14, 2008 at 12:47 AM
Alright, bedtime for me. I will end with this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMHB4_tSOf0&feature=related
The HILARITY of this clip becomes apparent a few months after they did this “debate” when this happens:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_dQ5KJ8rgA
muyoso on March 14, 2008 at 12:47 AM
It is not of your business, if you don’t care.
I sure don’t need to answer anything to you.
Goodbye.
Indy Conservative on March 14, 2008 at 12:47 AM
Remember to cross yourself on your way out like a good catlick or you’ll go to hell.
LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:49 AM
I don’t condone any of the evil things done by the Catholic Church and consider myself more of a Bible Christian than anything else these days, though I still attend a Catholic mass. My answer to your last question would require a full length essay which I do not have the time to write. However I doubt that I would bother writing it seeing as your animus is against religion in general and Christianity in particular. You only care about the moral failings of the Catholic Church insomuch as that they advance your agenda of atheism.
aengus on March 14, 2008 at 12:49 AM
One last note here.
Atheism or Naturalism holds that the immaterial laws of logic can be “reduced” to nature or to what is ultimately physical at root.
But if the laws of logic are capable of being reduced in principle “to what is physical” or contingent in nature, then we have additional problems for the atheist.
The laws of logic are invariate, universal, and normative in nature.
Physical or psychological laws are merely descriptive in nature, and lack universality. Physical laws are understood to be rooted or based from inductive argumentation, and not deductive argumentation.
If the immaterial laws of logic are rooted in what is physical, then that entails that the law of non-contradiction may be invalid in a particular region on our planet, and yet be valid on another region.
But we know that to be false. Hence, contrary to the Naturalist or Atheist, the laws of logic are invariate and are universal in nature. Atheism as a worldview cannot justify their usage of the immaterial laws of logic.
Blacklake,
in closing, I do appreciate your insightful comments concerning W.V.O. Quine. Thank you for the discussion.
take care, my friend.
ColtsFan on March 14, 2008 at 12:49 AM
No, you ‘merely’ equated Catholicism with fascism all the while admitting you didn’t know what you were talking about.
aengus on March 14, 2008 at 12:50 AM
Goodnight.
aengus on March 14, 2008 at 12:51 AM
Are you confusing me with someone else you’ve been argueing? I have no trouble enjoying life, I just find that when you posit that there is no meaning to life, then there is no meaning to death, and everything and anything is permissible, thus my bringing up Moa and Stalin. Who cares, right? Life has no meaning, why should you care if you lose it.
Please name one thing, just one, that doesn’t have meaning that you would care if you lost. Just one. Please.
VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 12:52 AM
Remember to stroke your forelock as you blink or a gypsy curse will be uopn you.
LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:52 AM
tripe
LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:53 AM
Remember to nod thricely at the moon before bed or you toenails will curl
LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:54 AM
Damn, I thought KORN said it all…”God don’t mind……”
dmann on March 14, 2008 at 12:56 AM
Oh, for ferals’ sake.
Entelechy on March 14, 2008 at 12:57 AM
Dmann,
Thank you for your comments.
I wrote the above argument really fast earlier. I was not trying to be “slick.” Just quick. :-)
My worldview, like all worldviews, have “first principles”.
A “first principle” of mine is the undeniability of the law of non-contradiction. My argument does assume the presupposition of the undeniability of the law of non-contradiction.
Would you like to discuss the question of:
is there evidence for why my argument assumes the undeniability of the law of non-contradiction?
ColtsFan on March 14, 2008 at 12:58 AM
“If the immaterial laws of logic are rooted in what is physical, then that entails that the law of non-contradiction may be invalid in a particular region on our planet, and yet be valid on another region.”
How in the world did you come to that conclusion?
c6gunner on March 14, 2008 at 1:01 AM
The Western intellectual tradition, beginning around the Enlightenment, actively repressed any higher levels of its own spiritual intelligence. Historically, with the rise of modernity, the mythic God was thoroughly abandoned – the entire “Death of God” movement meant the death of the mythic God, a mythic conception for which rational modernity could find little evidence.
And here they particularly made a crippling error: in correctly spotting the immaturity of the notion of a mythic God – or the mythic level of the spiritual line – they threw out not just the mythic level of spiritual intelligence but the entire line of spiritual intelligence. So upset were they with the mythic level, they tossed the baby of the spiritual line with the bathwater of its mythic level of development. They jettisoned the mythic God, and instead of finding rational God, and then pluralistic God, and integral God, they ditched God altogether, they began the repression of the sublime, the repression of their own higher levels of spiritual intelligence. The intellectual West has fundamentally never recovered from this cultural disaster.
The Western intellectual tradition – and that now happens to mean the modern (rational) world in general – thus came crashing into the modern age bereft of any higher, post-mythic forms of spiritual intelligence. Each level of consciousness has a version of science, art, spirituality, and morals, among other lines. These are simply four different multiple intelligences: cognitive, aesthetic, spiritual, and moral.
But when modernity confused the mythic level of spiritual intelligence with spiritual intelligence itself, and therefore ridiculed anything that looked spiritual or religious, it created what can only be called a “ludicrous layer cake”: all of science was identified with the rational level if the cognitive line, and all of spirituality was identified with the mythic level in the spiritual line. Instead of mythic science and religion, and rational science and religion, there was now only rational science and mythic religion. The former was rational, modern, and all good; the latter was prerational, premodern, and all bad, or at least all ridiculous.
Once that catastrophic confusion occurs, then generally one of two things happen. If the level is despised, the entire line is despised, and thus that multiple intelligence is frozen at the despised level, and any higher development in that line is effectively prevented. This generally results in the repression of that intelligence.
Alternatively, if the level is loved, development in that line is also frozen at that level, but in this case caught not in repression but fixation, with consciousness not attempting to push the despised level away, but compulsively pursuing it and obsessively thinking of it.
In both cases, the affected multiple intelligence is frozen at the level that the level/line confusion occurs. In the case of repression, the entire line is then denied and suppressed, resulting in its atrophy and dysfunctional manifestation. If this occurs in the spiritual line of development, then in many cases, the repressed spiritual impulses are projected onto others, and then, like the anti-gay-porn crusader who is attacking his own shadow, this person becomes an obsessed, hyper-rational crusader fighting any and all spiritual endeavors, seeing them as complete irrational hogwash (with a pre/post fallacy not far behind). We then have science declaring war on religion.
In the case of fixation, the particular level is so glorified that, while development again freezes at the level where the confusion occurs, instead of the multiple intelligence being denied, it is obsessively and ferociously defended against all comers. But the only thing defended is that particular level in that line, which is then identified with the entire line and confused as the only correct type of the particular intelligence allowed. Ironically, in these individuals, as their own higher levels of that multiple intelligence attempt to emerge, they will end up repressing them, repressing their own emergent potentials in that line because they are fixated to a particular level in that line. If the line is the spiritual line, then these individuals end up fixated at a lower level of spiritual intelligence (usually mythic), and ironically can project their own higher, emerging spiritual impulses onto others, seeing these higher spiritual impulses as anti-spiritual. They then often end up denying higher levels of both science and religion, and lash out blindly at what amounts to their own higher potentials. We then have mythic religion declaring war on science (and the liberal world in general).
deesine on March 14, 2008 at 1:02 AM
Those of you arguing about this really should spend some time reading some Christian Apologetics. I haven’t seen a new argument in this entire thread. Pretty much all of this ground has already been covered by people that spent major portions of their life working out these questions. If you are really interested in these arguments try reading some of their works. If not, just shut up.
ronsfi, I appreciate your postings, they were the most interesting reading in the thread.
Buford on March 14, 2008 at 1:04 AM
Let’s take this a set further. I’m a Catholic, which I’ve learned tonight has made me the Western world’s equivalent of the Taliban.
I don’t hold the belief that you have to follow a religion or be Christian to console, as an atheist friend of mine has helped me through some tough times in my life.
God helps those who help themselves.
Sit around and attack those who look have faith in a higher power and believe there’s a purpose for their existence.
amerpundit on March 14, 2008 at 1:09 AM
That is a fair question to ask.
The answer is because what is fundamentally (or essentially) physical in nature cannot provide a universal foundation across time, across space, across geography, etc.
This is because physical laws or physical terms are considered to be **contingent** in nature.
P12: What is therefore contingent in nature cannot at all provide a foundation or ground for what is necessary.
The truth of P12 leads then to the conclusion that the laws of logic, if the naturalist or atheist position is true, are “true in one region of the world” but not true in another region of the same world (or same city or same neighborhood, etc).
If the atheist or naturalist position is true regarding the **contingency of the laws of logic**, then the possibility of rational discourse disappears.
But we as rational thinkers in this world do experience rational discourse. We do know there are bad forms of argumentation and there are good forms of argumentation. Rational discourse does exist.
Therefore, the naturalist or atheist position must be rejected.
ColtsFan on March 14, 2008 at 1:10 AM
Justin Martyr, the most important of the Apologists, is a perfect example of how the realization of a universal Nous or Mind would be translated downward into an exclusive mythic property. He had three main points:
(1) “Those who live according to the Logos are Christians.” This is fine; the Logos is the universal Nous or universal Mind in each of us, and if a Christian is defined as one who lives in Logos, then to the extent that any of us live in Logos, we can all be called Christians. This is very similar to D. T. Suzuki saying that all true religion has satori (realization of universal Mind or no-mind) as its basis, and therefore all true religion has Zen as a basis. There is nothing in Justin’s position so far that is divisive or merely mythic.
(2) “What anybody has said about the truth belongs to us, the Christians.” This is still fine, as Justin has defined the terms. As Saint Ambrose would later put it, “Whatsoever is true, by whomsoever it is said, is from the Holy Spirit”. All Truth issues forth from Spirit, and if a Christian is one who is actually living in this Truth, then all Truth belongs to Christians, as defined. Again, this is indistinguishable from Suzuki’s “All truth is Zen.”
(3) “If the Logos in its fullness had not appeared in Jesus, no salvation would be possible for anybody”. And there Justin steps over the line, or down the line, and into mythic possessiveness. It follows only from any such line of “Christian” reasoning that the Logos needed to descend into some particular embodiment or incarnation. If it is understood that Buddha or Krishna or Lao Tzu was also a complete embodiment (Descent or Incarnation) and realization (Ascent or Ascension) of Spirit, that Jesus is non-unique, then we have the notion of avatar or world teacher, which is fine. But the only way to claim that just one of them is “the absolute and unique incarnation of God” is to ground that claim in mythological dogma that is separated out and protected from reason, from evidence, and from direct spiritual realization, and given a privileged status that is merely sociocentric, not pneumatocentric, in origin.
And the sad thing about this proprietary stance is that (1) it separates and divides Christians from all other humans and other world citizens; (2) it divides Christ from all Christians, because Christ is, in the final analysis, unique; and (3) it ultimately divides God from this world altogether, since the Incarnation and Ascension, for this earth, both happened only once, no matter how much the first two genuinely universal points of Justin’s ever-repeated argument are stressed.
Christian apologists are razor sharp in applying these distinctions, and so we have to put it to them very bluntly: “Is Jesus Christ unique? Is, to give just one example, Gautama Buddha also an absolute Incarnation and the Ascension of the full Logos?” If they say yes, then they are following genuine or catholic faith, and the only true conclusion of their reasoning; if they say no, they are still stuck in their local volcano god and his “only begotten”. It will do no good, at this point, to claim that Buddhists are participating in the same Logos that was uniquely manifested in Jesus. Many modern Christian mytics, incidentally, are perfectly happy to answer yes.
The Trinitarian Doctrine (three Divine Forms, One Substance) is almost identical to the Buddhist doctrine of the Trikaya (three Bodies of Buddha), as worked out in The Lotus Sutra, the Lankavatara Sutra, etc., and was designed to answer the same question: If Buddha-nature (tathagatagarbha) is timeless and eternal, how did it come to appear in the historical person Gautama Shakyamuni, and what is his relation to it? The answer was also essentially the same: the formless Ground or Truth Body (Emptiness, the Dharmakaya; Father) appears in the world of form, as the Nirmanakaya of Form Body, the historical manifestation (Guatama; the Son), mediated by the Transformation Body (the Sambhogakaya; Holy Spirit) – all three of which are different but equal aspects of the Svabhavikakaya (Godhead). But the Buddhists drew the only correct conclusion: there are therefore potentially an infinite number of equal Sons and Daughters of Dharmakaya; not only is Jesus accepted as a perfect Nirmanakaya manifestation, it is expected.
deesine on March 14, 2008 at 1:10 AM
“The answer is because what is fundamentally (or essentially) physical in nature cannot provide a universal foundation across time, across space, across geography, etc.”
What the hell kind of back-assward logic is that? You’re saying that physical laws must be different in one part of the world than in another? What the hell? How does gravity work in your part of the world?
Frankly, your entire comme3nt sounds like fee-association – the words make sense on their own, but they form sentences that don’t have any meaning. It’s like you’re trying to use a whackload of big words to hide the fact that you have no idea what you’re talking about.
c6gunner on March 14, 2008 at 1:23 AM
ColtsFan on March 14, 2008 at 12:58 AM
I appreciate the offer, the law of non-contradiction has become a contradiction in that it (sp) is always sited as the benchmark for arguments on logic, thus leaving no alternative outcome. Fine, if one can assume that this perception/definition is valid. The inherent weakness in this argument is once again the assumption/leap of faith required to validate its premise which leaves no alternative. You may astutely point out…exactly, there can be no other outcome. I can only argue from the observed and my experiences; which brings us full circle to wrestle with….what is faith? As humans, the need to make assumptions is paramount in our ability to explain/understand observed phenomena, as such any and all systems that attempt to explain how we do that are suspect.
dmann on March 14, 2008 at 1:28 AM
amerpundit on March 14, 2008 at 1:09 AM
Who did I attack?
VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 1:29 AM
I just got to these comments now. Did the argument reach a conclusion?
frankj on March 14, 2008 at 1:30 AM
Please name one thing, just one, that doesn’t have meaning that you would care if you lost. Just one. Please.
VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 12:52 AM
I ask this of any of the atheists here. Anyone? LimeyGeek? Muyoso? Anyone?
VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 1:32 AM
frankj on March 14, 2008 at 1:30 AM
Then, life as we know it would be over!
dmann on March 14, 2008 at 1:33 AM
frankj on March 14, 2008 at 1:30 AM
Yes. Believers are pompous a-holes. So are atheists. and then some goodnights were said.
VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 1:33 AM
ColtsFan on March 14, 2008 at 1:10 AM
ronsfi on March 14, 2008 at 1:33 AM
Scientists and philosophers already agree that the immaterial laws of logic are normative and are qualitatively different from the physical laws of biology, laws of chemistry, etc.
I am not denying the validity of the physical law of gravity in my part of the world, Chicago.
I am only repeating the consensus among scientists and philosophers.
I am only trying to, patiently, explain and summarize key insights from this.
Okay.
But thanks for the discussion. Take care.
ColtsFan on March 14, 2008 at 1:36 AM
Don’t worry, they never do.
Reaps on March 14, 2008 at 1:37 AM
“Scientists and philosophers already agree that the immaterial laws of logic are normative and are qualitatively different from the physical laws of biology, laws of chemistry, etc.”
Which has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not they’re consistently true throughout the universe. You’re just making a silly assumption. You’re saying that since 1+1 is different than 3+3, and since 3+3 always equals 6, then 1+1 must have a different value in Chicago than it does in New York. You’re pulling assumptions out of thin air.
“I am only repeating the consensus among scientists and philosophers.”
No, you’re twisting it to mean what you want it to mean. Which is really nothing new as far as religious arguments go.
c6gunner on March 14, 2008 at 1:42 AM
You are correct to hold that my “faith” (or “first principle”) is that any worldview, to be rationally cogent, must assume the undeniability of the universal law of non-contradiction.
From this first principle, I then extrapolate to Christian theism.
This postmodern age of ours may raise the issue of “suspect faiths”, more so than in an earlier Enlightenment or modern paradigm.
But there are “certainties” even in our postmodern age.
One of them is the universal immaterial laws of logic. To deny logic, as do the positions of the atheist, is to introduce the highest form of suspicion possible.
ColtsFan on March 14, 2008 at 1:42 AM
There once was a time when all people believed in God and the church ruled. This time was called the Dark Ages.
- Richard Lederer
MB4 on March 14, 2008 at 1:45 AM
No, that is not my position.
I am not saying:
“since 1+1 is different than 3+3, and since 3+3 always equals 6, then 1+1 must have a different value in Chicago than it does in New York.”
ColtsFan on March 14, 2008 at 1:46 AM
When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion.
- Robert M. Pirsig
MB4 on March 14, 2008 at 1:46 AM
“Please name one thing, just one, that doesn’t have meaning that you would care if you lost. Just one. Please.”
Define “meaning”.
I take it you’re trying to imply that since only “meaningful” things have value, and since we value our lives, then our lives must have meaning, and “THEREFORE, GOD!”.
Which is just really bad logic.
Things I care about have meaning to me. They don’t derive their meaning from some invisible man in the sky, they derive their meaning from what they can do for me. Money has meaning to me because it has the potential to make my life better. Women have meaning for me because they have the potential to provide pleasure, and an opportunity to procreate. Family has meaning to me because they provide a comfortable atmosphere, and, on a biological level, represent the spread of genes closly related to my own. Etc. How does any of that prove that the universe was created by an invisible fairy?
c6gunner on March 14, 2008 at 1:46 AM
“No, that is not my position.”
Then what is your position? How in the world do you come to the conclusion that since logical laws are different than physical laws, they must be inconsistent?
c6gunner on March 14, 2008 at 1:47 AM
Which is it, is man one of God’s blunders or is God one of man’s?
- Friedrich Nietzsche
MB4 on March 14, 2008 at 1:47 AM
MB4,
I have enjoyed our discussions in the past. But can we reach agreement on the following, though?
Can I have your vote of confidence for?
Jim Demint SC—Prez candidate
J.C. Watts OK—V Prez
Dick Armey Texas—Secretary of Treasury
MB4—Director of Immigration Enforcement
ColtsFan on March 14, 2008 at 1:49 AM
-
deesine on March 14, 2008 at 1:57 AM
Demint sounds real good or Sessions. Watts sounds good. Armey? I don’t know enough about him. I will take DIE though and appoint Tancredo my XO.
MB4 on March 14, 2008 at 2:05 AM
Cool!!!
ColtsFan on March 14, 2008 at 2:06 AM
MB4 on March 14, 2008 at 1:45 AM
Said it before, say it again; u da bomb!
ColtsFan: sadly I am a Patriots fan and there is the rub! Faith is indeed an assumption, I was raised a Catholic, subscribe to the values, understand the principles, do not grasp the rationalization (leap required) for the death (horrific in most cases) of outstanding, capable, talented and loving “believers”. The only assumption I KNOW is that random probability coupled to the frailty of human life equals unfounded sorrow and suffering.
dmann on March 14, 2008 at 2:08 AM
You do indeed have 3 Super Bowl rings.
I only have one!! :-)
I do think Asante may be a big loss for you guys though…
ColtsFan on March 14, 2008 at 2:10 AM
Not true. An atheist is fully capable of exercising natural virtue. Atheists can love, do good unto others, experience feelings, etc. The natural virtues do not require any of the supernatural graces obtained through the Sacraments. Plainly put, even if you deny the existence of the supernatural, you can be naturally virtuous. And whether or not you believe in the divine doesn’t change the fact that both atheists and Christians can agree on this. So, my fellow Christians, please stop attacking the atheists on this board as immoral, unloving, uncaring, etc. This doesn’t help move the discussion forward. It reflects poorly on you and on all other Christians. And to the atheists on the board, I urge civility as well. Exercise those natural virtues of patience and civility which some of my fellow Christians have unfortunately and wrongly accused you of lacking. Purposefully inflammatory statements and postulations without any explanation of the meaning serves to encourage the kind of base, idiotic retorts of which you complain.
Just a few thoughts.
darii on March 14, 2008 at 2:16 AM
ColtsFan on March 14, 2008 at 2:10 AM
Truth be told, sports is the opiate of the masses. While I do enjoy the comradery created by local success, far to many in our society think children’s games are of consequence.
dmann on March 14, 2008 at 2:19 AM
Yeah.
But the Patriots are so much fun to watch. Because they are good. Really good. Year after year.
It is frustrating being in the same conference as them.
ColtsFan on March 14, 2008 at 2:21 AM
ColtsFan on March 14, 2008 at 2:21 AM
Thank whomever ;-> your comfortable with, we could be in Detriot!
dmann on March 14, 2008 at 2:24 AM
Or Cincinnati.
ColtsFan on March 14, 2008 at 2:25 AM
Sleep becons, 12 hour stints for the next 3….night night!
dmann on March 14, 2008 at 2:29 AM
“If we ask, whether the position of the electron remains the same, we have to say no. If we ask, whether the position of an electron changes with the course of time, we have to say no. If we ask, whether the electron is in a state of rest, we have to say no. If we ask, whether the electron is in motion, we have to say no.”
J.R. Oppenheimer – Describing the structure of probability clouds.
ronsfi on March 14, 2008 at 2:38 AM
The most important of the Apologists? He was one of the first, true, but Christian Apologetics continued from Justin’s time (100-169 AD) until modern times. Don’t cherry pick arguements here, take the body of work as a whole and look for the arguements that still stand up without apparent conflict instead of old arguements that demostrate logic problems. Yeah, not all Christian Apologetics were always on top of their game, but there hasn’t been an arguement presented here that hasn’t been addressed in a competent manner by someone much wiser than any of you clowns posting here. Start looking at the parts of Apologetics where the arguements hold up, and these do exist, then I will believe you are actually interested in this subject and not just trying to use the same old arguements trying to tear down Christianity.
Buford on March 14, 2008 at 2:52 AM
The argument from Reason has its origin in the Argument from Truth defended by Augustine.
ColtsFan on March 14, 2008 at 2:55 AM
I hope this is helpful below…
The Argument from Reason has its origin in the Argument from Truth defended by Augustine.
ColtsFan on March 14, 2008 at 3:00 AM
Thanks for the post, AP.
Bugler on March 14, 2008 at 3:31 AM
“A rigorous atheist cannot console in a time of grief, cannot explain love, cannot sigh in happy wonder at life’s endless surprises.”
If by that you mean that a rigorous atheist will not make shit up and tell you what you want to hear, then so be it.
Seixon on March 14, 2008 at 4:30 AM
This quote is full of crap.
Because I’m an atheist I can’t explain love, or can’t appreciate surprises in life? Only a belief in God can allow these emotions to come to the fore? No, this is patently wrong, and furthermore shows the elitism of some religionists. I’m guessing that this is from Tony Snow since his picture is on the front page associated with this article. They’re clearly the words of a very frightened man. Don’t get me wrong, he has every right to be afraid. But this fear makes his rhetoric disingenuous.
RWLA on March 14, 2008 at 5:44 AM
Fear path is the path to the darkside…
fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering…
Viper1 on March 14, 2008 at 6:00 AM
Optimistic.
Nice, and something I agree with, but optimistic.
Sometimes you wonder how they can all be of the GOP/conservative movement..
..But perhaps that’s what appeals to them in the first place..
Reaps on March 14, 2008 at 6:51 AM
Ben Franklin, not Scripture
oldleprechaun on March 14, 2008 at 6:52 AM
dmann on March 14, 2008 at 2:19 AM
“Baseball is the opiate of the masses.”
Madalyn Murray O’Hair
oldleprechaun on March 14, 2008 at 6:57 AM
My wife is battling Ovarian Cancer Stage 3 and has held on to her faith despite what she is going through. After reading what Tony Snow said here, all I can say is that this guy is my new hero. This is a wonderful, straight to the point article that should have been written years ago. I doubt it will shut the big fat mouth of someone like Christopher Hitchens, but it may get the guy to rethink his point of view.
pilamaye on March 14, 2008 at 7:11 AM
To toss my hat into this three-ring circus, I’ll merely use some terrific quotes that elegantly sum up why so many of us believe in a creator:
The atheist can’t find God for the same reason that a thief can’t find a policeman.
Author Unknown
Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God.
Heywood Broun
I do not feel obliged to believe that same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect had intended for us to forgo their use.
Galileo
The theory that thought is merely a movement in the brain is, in my opinion, nonsense; for if so, that theory itself would be merely a movement, an event among atoms, which may have speed and direction but of which it would be meaningless to use the words ‘true’ or ‘false’.
C.S. Lewis
The worst moment for the atheist is when he is really thankful, and has nobody to thank.
Dante Gabriel Rossetti
If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents – the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else’s. But if their thoughts – i.e., Materialism and Astronomy – are mere accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents. It’s like expecting the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milk-jug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset.
C.S. Lewis
If God were small enough to be understood, He would not be big enough to be worshiped.
Evelyn Underhill
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the Sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
C.S. Lewis
Jockolantern on March 14, 2008 at 8:11 AM
pilamaye on March 14, 2008 at 7:11 AM
My prayers go out to you and your wife.
Pachyderm
Pachyderm on March 14, 2008 at 9:06 AM
Only the arrogant and historically-ignorant connect the term “Dark Ages” to the religiosity of the people who lived in that period. Petrarch, the Renaissance (not Dark Ages) thinker who coined the phrase “Dark Ages”, was a religious man — and is widely viewed as the father of humanism. He saw no conflict between reason and religion. And no one who has any kind of historical clue about that period calls it the Dark Ages any more; those centuries (5th-10th century AD) are called the “Early Middle Ages” these days.
Indeed, the phrase “Dark Ages” was coined to refer to the apparent lack of literature and art produced in those centuries. Of course, this supposed “lack” was mislabelled, as a trip to any decent museum will reveal rooms full of art from the first milennium AD, much of which was from the Carolingian Renaissance of the 8th and 9th centuries, which sprung up during the period of Charlemagne’s Holy Roman Empire.
The Dark Ages aside, Lederer’s quote is either absurbly arrogant (most likely), absurdly ignorant, or both. Far more legendary and truly classic works of art, music, literature, and science have been achieved by “people [who] believed in God” over the centuries than by the supposedly “enlightened” God-deniers.
The 20th century was hailed, at the end of the 19th century, as being the century that secular technological humanism would usher in a halcyon age of plenty and peace. The 20th century certainly was the most atheistic century yet in the history of Western civilization — and we all remember how peaceful the 20th century turned out.
Harpazo on March 14, 2008 at 9:13 AM
For anyone still reading this thread, Vox Day’s new book The Irrational Atheist would be a good companion-read to D’Souza’s
Harpazo on March 14, 2008 at 9:14 AM
You are not required to believe in anything but the fact that you find it necessary to mock and degrade the beliefs of others means that you are small and petty.
I am not a Catholic but you are offensive.
EJDolbow on March 14, 2008 at 9:19 AM
Truly God inspired text should/would have no need for apologetics.
frreal on March 14, 2008 at 9:20 AM
When I was an atheist I started wondering why morality mattered if we only had a few decades on this planet. What inspired men to pursue good and noble efforts when none of it mattered?
I prayed to God, essentailly saying “God, I don’t believe in you , I think I’m talking to thin air right now, but if you are real, please reveal yourself to me, in such a way that I’ll have no doubts…”
I figured if He was the God of the Bible He would have no problem with that request. What followed was a string of events which were not supernatural in nature, but miraculous in a personal sense. My entire world, including my worldview, was turned on its head and I was unable to do anything about it. It was like the door had shut on a life that for very real circumstantial reasons I could not return to; and another door was opened to a life that I had never wanted and had openly mocked: a life of moral accountablility. But this new life offered answers, and hope. And all of a sudden, what was unreasonable and illogical before no longer seemed so, in light of the new information – that there is an Omnipotent, Omniscient, loving God who is merciful and kind.
I realized that atheism made sense to me before based on the information I had at the time. Or at least the information that I was considering.
But I didn’t really arrive at belief through logic, although I belive that logic does lead to belief, if applied honestly and rigorously. I arrived at faith through Revelation – a path consistant with the Bible’s teaching that God reveals himself – through nature, through Christ, and through scripture.
So I always tell people to ask God to reveal Himself. I don’t promise He will, or that it will happen miraculously or immediately. But that’s a prayer I know He answered for me.
Dork B. on March 14, 2008 at 9:23 AM
Colts fan you should step into this arena to argue your logics. I think you would find many quite willing to engage you in depth. I know I would find it interesting if you are up to the task.
Philosophy/Existence of God
frreal on March 14, 2008 at 9:27 AM
Allahpundit, your remarks seem to go to the question, “What is god?”. They seem to imply an opinion that god and meaning are somehow related. The meaning of anything may be its meaning in relation to its end or purpose. That raises questions as to what, if anything, the end is, and whether the god and the end are one thing or two things. At any rate, I want to keep coming back around to saying that one can’t settle a question as to whether god is, without attempting to settle a question as to what god is.
Kralizec on March 14, 2008 at 9:34 AM
Thanks for the tip.
But I have already been there before. I have found atheists Richard Carrier and Keith Augustine to be very charitable, and helpful with me, via email correspondence, in carefully explaining the Naturalist view of the laws of logic.
ColtsFan on March 14, 2008 at 9:38 AM
I feel for you and your wife at this very difficult time.
ColtsFan on March 14, 2008 at 9:41 AM
Heroin is the opiate of the masses.
ronsfi on March 14, 2008 at 9:45 AM
I love the ‘What is, is’ quote. Should we conclude that Tony Snow thinks that “What is, isn’t”?
mycowardice on March 14, 2008 at 10:00 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaqRwFyoGgQ
ronsfi on March 14, 2008 at 10:02 AM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9wX_W1BB_0M
-
deesine on March 14, 2008 at 10:14 AM
One fo the quotes from that page:
This is an error. The Book of Isaiah; Isaiah was a Hebrew prophet from the eighth century BC, and he wrote:
Sensei Ern on March 14, 2008 at 10:16 AM
Essentially what this all comes down to is a paradox: we pick at differences to prove we are not alone (belief in an all-powerful God, belief that there is no God) while at the same time wanting others to believe as we do, think as we do, to justify our own existence.
It’s not so much a matter of faith, or lack there of, but being self-aware, through logic or revelation. by hook or by crook, by the sword or by the book, we don’t want to be alone but we want to be unique.
Blight on March 14, 2008 at 10:29 AM
c6gunner on March 14, 2008 at 1:46 AM
No. Those things you say you care about have no meaning. They are all an accident. All of them. Why would you care if you lose something that has no meaning?
VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 10:31 AM
c6gunner on March 14, 2008 at 1:46 AM
The arugment I was making with muyoso was that, since all of humanity, and the earth, is just an accidental blip in eternity, none of it (us) have meaning. None. You cannot say, “Because I care about something it has meaning.”
Your care is an accident and has no meaning. Again, I ask any atheist, name one thing that has no meaning that you would care if you lose. One will suffice. Thank you.
VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 10:33 AM
A circle is not a sphere. If you stand on a spot and turn around 360 degrees you will see what is meant by “circle of the earth”.
ronsfi on March 14, 2008 at 10:50 AM
Black Elk: Holy Man of the Oglala Sioux, 1863-1950
ronsfi on March 14, 2008 at 10:53 AM
Black Elk describes the Circle of the Earth as “Hoop”. Same idea.
ronsfi on March 14, 2008 at 10:54 AM
Black Elk.
According to your reasoning this would mean Black Elk discovered the nature of the expanding universe.
It’s all in the interpretation.
ronsfi on March 14, 2008 at 10:56 AM
Very cool.
gmbdds on March 14, 2008 at 11:20 AM
All the words, all the arguments, perfectly distilled. Magical thinking, that’s exactly what religion is.
RushBaby on March 14, 2008 at 11:35 AM
As a non-practicing atheist I can definitely say that the atheists I know are extremely bitter people. The Christians I know are extremely nice people, but consistently inconsistent with their beliefs.
That’s all.
SouthernGent on March 14, 2008 at 11:52 AM
Your question is nonsense, syntax aside.
LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:04 PM
Then Zhuangzi flew in front of a bus. Zhuangzi WAS a butterfly.
ronsfi on March 14, 2008 at 12:08 PM
Nicely contorted :)
I am not an atheist, as it happens. Theism vs Atheism is a false dichotomy, as it presumes a belief or non-belief in God are the only two legitimate states.
What it fails to address is the even deeper argument about whether the very concept of a god is legitimate. If we agree that the very possibility of a god existing is reasonable, then we can separate into the two camps and frame our arguments within this context.
My position is that no such context exists. I contend that people are arguing over gibberish.
LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:11 PM
LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:04 PM
Well, very thought. You perhaps tell can me why nonsense question is?
VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 12:14 PM
LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:04 PM
And since you obviously haven’t followed the agrument that led to the question, maybe you should go back and see what muyoso was arguing. If all of this is an accident, then how can there be any meaning? And if there is no meaning, why does anything matter? And if nothing matters, why are Stalin and Moa such bad guys?
Or it that too nonsensical for you?
VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 12:17 PM
LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:11 PM
Talk about nonsense. Pomposity aside.
VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 12:19 PM
Well, I had to go to bed. And the thread is on its way down the list at the moment, so it’s probably too late. But for what it’s worth:
I don’t believe anybody’s maintained that scientific propositions are based on “inductive argumentation” since Hume. Are you trying to focus on the analytic/synthetic dichotomy? Why?
As for the notion that bivalent logic is conditional (which is what I take it you’re getting at with the second bit), it clearly is. For instance, it works well when talking about things of a size we deal with on a daily basis, but fails utterly when dealing with quantum-sized particles, where only the omnivalence of probability theory is effective. This is no different than the way Euclidean geometry fails when applied to lines on the surface of a sphere, or Newtonian physics fails when applied to things moving at very high speeds.
Blacklake on March 14, 2008 at 12:28 PM
VolMagic, it is clear you’re not a deep thinker. You haven’t even thought about “what is meaning?” and “does everything have meaning?” before arguing about whether or not existence itself is meaningful ie. your framework is flawed/absent.
Here’s a twister for you – perhaps it is life that gives meaning to existence.
LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:32 PM
Religious zealots who, based on their reading of the Bible, “know” exactly how God created everything fall into the same category as atheist zealots who belittle all people of faith. Neither one contributes much to the quest for truth.
I have been a practicing nuclear scientist and a student of the Bible for over 40 years and can find no contradiction between my secular and religious training. The Biblical account of creation is simple and often symbolic. Its only aim is to inform man that the world and all life on it were created by God. It is not a scientific treatise on how the creation was engineered and performed. On the other hand, scientific endeavors have shed little light on how our world and the life thereon were actually formed. And, as we delve deeper into this area of science, we seem to expand the volume of things that we don’t really know. Theories abound and evolve on a regular basis. They are fun to research and write papers on, but they simply do not fully comprehend or explain the creation of the universe or of the life that resides on our planet.
Those who deny scientific evidence based on Biblical studies are foolish. Those who deny the existence of God based on scientific studies are likewise foolish. The methods by which worlds and life were created are beyond our current understanding and have little relevance with respect to the spiritual and moral laws given to us by God. The more that I study our universe, the more convinced I become that God does indeed exist and that he used knowledge and power that transcends our finite minds to accomplish his work. This view of our world takes nothing away from the great value of our many scientific achievements and retains God as a moral foundation for an enlightened, democratic society of human beings.
As a scientist, one of my many motivations for investing in obedience to God’s laws is the hope that I might be judged worthy to be taught the mysteries of creation in the next life. Call me foolish if you will, but this is the only hope that any of us have of knowing the whole truth concerning the universe that we live in. It is a creed that I can comfortably live and die with.
NuclearPhysicist on March 14, 2008 at 12:41 PM
OK, I ‘fess up to zinging the catlicks. Honestly, I have no personal issue with people of faith. I will gladly stand up and defend their right to worship. I have varying levels of ‘problems’ with religion as an institution, Catholicism especially.
The simple truth is that I have no horse in this race. I have no need for faith, I see no value in it, and consider it a frivolous distraction from my mission to appreciate every breath of life I take, on my terms – terms that have value to me.
LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:55 PM
Why do atheists cling to the belief that they know everything when there is proof in the science they pretend to worship that clearly and irrefutably says that there are many things they cannot know?
landlines on March 14, 2008 at 12:59 PM
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