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posted at 10:48 pm on March 13, 2008 by Allahpundit
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This leads us to perhaps the strongest argument against atheism, which D’Souza makes only indirectly—the argument from experience. Atheism cannot reach our hearts. A rigorous atheist cannot console in a time of grief, cannot explain love, cannot sigh in happy wonder at life’s endless surprises. He can only utter, “What is, is.”


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Comment pages: 1 2 3 4

LimeyGeek on March 13, 2008 at 11:41 PM

Can-o-worms dude! Faith is beyond/outside scientific methodology, it does require a leap. All (flavors) or none is an individual choice, only when the adherence to a particular flavor is acted upon as the ONLY flavor do real problems arise. (jeez, I sound like a liberal)

dmann on March 13, 2008 at 11:57 PM

“No, you must understand, the Christians on this board think that atheists lack all humanity and are incapable of anything good.” Just like the gay ‘community’ (gay activists), atheists project their own self-loathing on the 90% who know in their bones that there is a guiding force–something that connects us all to each other and life, everlasting.

“A rigorous atheist cannot console in a time of grief, cannot explain love, cannot sigh in happy wonder at life’s endless surprises.
That makes no sense.” (Why?)
MB4 on March 13, 2008 at 11:41 PM

Christine on March 13, 2008 at 11:57 PM

Muyoso,

WOW. Major sidestep, Dude!

The Ritz on March 13, 2008 at 11:57 PM

@ aengus on March 13, 2008 at 11:53 PM

WRONG. Shows you have no understanding of science. Newton would never have discovered gravity if he hadnt noticed ALL of the evidence for the force existing first. First a scientist collects EVIDENCE, THEN he forms a theory.

Here is a handy guide to show the difference between science and religion for you guys who CANNOT understand science.
http://www.wellingtongrey.net/miscellanea/archive/2007-01-15%20–%20science%20vs%20faith.html

muyoso on March 13, 2008 at 11:57 PM

@ The Ritz on March 13, 2008 at 11:57 PM

I answered your questions didnt I? I didnt side step at all. I elaborated on where you HAD TO be going with your first question, which answered your second question.

muyoso on March 13, 2008 at 11:58 PM

Catholicism do not “dictates almost every aspect of human life.”

I’ll make what I hope is a safe presumption and presume you to be Catholic.

Tell me about the Catholic position (pardon the pun) on sex. contraception. wealth.

Catholicism is not “theocracy” or “fascism.”

Can you find a recent HA post about the latest Vatican proclamations vis-a-vis ’sin’? Did this really happen?

How can you attempt to state, with a straight face, that Cathlicism is not a crushing control-freak?

LimeyGeek on March 13, 2008 at 11:59 PM

No a God wouldnt preclude himself from being known.

muyoso on March 13, 2008 at 11:55 PM

Well if he looked and sounded like John Kerry he might.

MB4 on March 14, 2008 at 12:00 AM

Agreed?

The Ritz on March 13, 2008 at 11:56 PM

No. Terrible logic.

LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:00 AM

@ Christine on March 13, 2008 at 11:57 PM

You DO know that in the bible, there are a lot of gays, or at least allusions to people being gay. Your ilk are an embarrasment to Christ. He would GALK at the things you say about people and the hatred you have for certain groups. Christians like you need to start acting a HELL OF A LOT more like christ.

http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian

muyoso on March 14, 2008 at 12:00 AM

Muyoso,

OK. Where did you think I was going with the first question? Please elaborate.

The Ritz on March 14, 2008 at 12:00 AM

In the beginning there were only two: Tawa, the Sun God, and Spider Woman, the Earth Goddess. All the mysteries and power in the Above belonged to Tawa, while Spider Woman controlled the magic of the Below. In the Underworld, abode of the Gods, they dwelt and they were All. There was neither man nor woman, bird nor beast, no living thing until these Two willed it to be.

ronsfi on March 14, 2008 at 12:02 AM

Limey,

Please explain why it’s so terrible. In both cases the conclusion clearly doesn’t follow the fact. (hence, non sequitur)

The Ritz on March 14, 2008 at 12:02 AM

WRONG. Shows you have no understanding of science. Newton would never have discovered gravity if he hadnt noticed ALL of the evidence for the force existing first. First a scientist collects EVIDENCE, THEN he forms a theory.

muyoso on March 13, 2008 at 11:57 PM

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime. Give a man religion and he will die of starvation while praying for a fish.

MB4 on March 14, 2008 at 12:02 AM

MB4 on March 13, 2008 at 11:44 PM

muyoso on March 13, 2008 at 11:48 PM

No dice.

Mark Twain and Albert Einstein were respectively a great writer and a great physicist. To take their genius in their chosen field and pretend it has any bearing on theology is an act of obfuscation. Its a tactic that works quite well a lot of time but its sneaky

aengus on March 14, 2008 at 12:02 AM

In the beginning there was no world, no land, no creatures of the kind that are
around us now, and there were no men. But there was a great ocean which occupied
space as far as anyone could see. Above the ocean was a great void of air. And in the air
there lived the birds of the sea; in the ocean lived the fish and the creatures of the deep.
Far above this unpeopled world, there was a Sky World. Here lived gods who were like
people—like Iroquois.

ronsfi on March 14, 2008 at 12:02 AM

@ The Ritz on March 14, 2008 at 12:00 AM

I answered that already. You were undoubtedly going to elaborate that IF a god could identify himself to people, that it is VERY possible for God to reveal himself to humans as christians claim. At least that is where a logical person would take the argument.

muyoso on March 14, 2008 at 12:02 AM

@ CrimsonFisted on March 13, 2008 at 11:48 PM

Hundreds of people see UFO’s flying. Does that mean they are? The bible wasn’t even written within a generation after Christ was dead. Parts of it were voted on, as it ALL of the gospels weren’t words of God. The bible was written by MAN. The fact you choose to believe it is because of your parents. Your parents indoctrinated you with your belief. If you were born in Pakistan, you would be Muslim.

muyoso on March 13, 2008 at 11:52 PM

Frankly, beyond the extremely insulting tone and rhetoric, that is NOT true. How DARE you even suggest such a thing? My PARENTS indoctrinated me? That my belief is based on my PARENTS? You are suggesting I cannot and am unable to think for myself?

My comment was to suggest EVIDENCE. There is recorded documentation that witnesses, who knew, saw, spoke with, had dinner with, saw Jesus AFTER he died. They saw him alive. That is evidence that could be admitted in court.

“Yes your Honor, I knew him as a kid. I saw him 40 days after Easter. After he was entombed. He was walking.”

This is cannot be compared to UFO sightings. No point of reference. No before and after comparison.

CrimsonFisted on March 14, 2008 at 12:03 AM

Faith is beyond/outside scientific methodology

Yes it is, I agree. In fact, I consider the realms of ‘faith’ and science to be mutually exclusive.

I once ridiculed a chap for being a stunning physicist and a Christian (many years ago). I now see that there is no conflict between the two views.

LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:03 AM

@ aengus on March 14, 2008 at 12:02 AM

They were also very intelligent people who had great insight on humanity.

muyoso on March 14, 2008 at 12:03 AM

In both cases the conclusion clearly doesn’t follow the fact.

Err…that’s why I said it wa terrible logic.

LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:04 AM

But can you please explain briefly W.V.O. Quine’s views concerning abstract entities and the law of non-contradiction? I am not interested in his talk about set theory, only what he believed concerning abstract entities.

ColtsFan on March 13, 2008 at 11:56 PM

With regards to abstract entities, he was a physicalist–i.e., there are no abstract entities, if by “abstract entities” you mean entities which are not inherently physical in nature. I think the burden lies on you to demonstrate that this implies some sort of contradiction (at this point I suppose I’m done speaking for Quine, who’d no doubt have made better arguments. So I’ll say on my own account that there bluntly isn’t one.)

Blacklake on March 14, 2008 at 12:04 AM

If that’s his strongest argument against Atheism, then it seems to me that he’s already given up. You may as well argue that Bigfoot exists because those who don’t believe in Bigfoot “cannot console in a time of grief, cannot explain love, cannot sigh in happy wonder at life’s endless surprises”. It’s utter nonsense.

If that’s the best argument he can come up with, he should probably just keep silent. “Better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak up and remove all doubt” and all that…

c6gunner on March 14, 2008 at 12:06 AM

Muyoso,

Actually I’m not even that far down the road.

I’m simply saying that the human inability to prove God’s existence in no way limits a God (IF He exists) from revealing himself to humanity.

Why is that so hard for you to agree with? It’s obvious.

The Ritz on March 14, 2008 at 12:06 AM

CrimsonFisted on March 13, 2008 at 11:48 PM

There is also evidence that Gandalf is a wizard. Thousands, nay Tens of thousands of witnesses saw him help crush the orcs at helms deep. Its all true, it’s in the Lord of the rings.

That is the extent of your argument.

JayHaw Phrenzie on March 14, 2008 at 12:06 AM

Some of us work for a living. Good night all!

CrimsonFisted on March 14, 2008 at 12:06 AM

Shillluk (Africa)
[Excerpted and edited from Folklore in the Old Testament, J.G. Frazer.]

The creator Juok moulded all people of earth. While he was engaged in the work of creation, he wandered about the world.

In the land of the whites he found a pure white earth or sand, and out of it he shaped white people. Then he came to the land of Egypt and out of the mud of the Nile he made red or brown people. Lastly, he came to the land of the Shilluks, and finding there black earth he created black people out of it.

The way in which he modeled human beings was this. He took a lump of earth and said to himself, “I will make humans, but they must be able to walk and run and go out into the fields, so I will give each of them two long legs, like the flamingo.” Having done so, he thought again, “They must be able to cultivate millet, so I will give each of them two arms, one to hold the hoe, and the other to tear up the weeds.” So he gave humans two arms. Then he thought again, “They must be able to see the millet, so I will give them two eyes.” He did so accordingly. Next he thought to himself, “They must be able to eat their millet, so I will give each a mouth.” And a mouth he gave accordingly. After that he thought within himself, “They must be able to dance and speak and sing and shout, and for these purposes they must have tongues.” And tongues he gave accordingly. Lastly the Deity said to himself, “They must be able to hear the noise of the dance and the speech of the great ones, and for that they need two ears.” So two ears each he gave, and sent them out into the world as perfect humans.”

ronsfi on March 14, 2008 at 12:07 AM

@ CrimsonFisted on March 14, 2008 at 12:03 AM

First of all, the ONLY reason you are the religion you are is because of your parents. If you were born in another country, you would believe in a different God. Second, you dont know that ANYONE saw Jesus after he died. You are taking it on FAITH. Faith cannot be used as evidence. Faith is the COMPLETE LACK of evidence. You believe the stories written thousands of years ago. It CERTAINLY be compared to UFO sightings, except that UFO sightings are a MILLION times more documented then what you are claiming is fact, and they are still almost all proven wrong.

muyoso on March 14, 2008 at 12:07 AM

Has science ever told us why gravitational force is so weak?

Has it ever explained what was before the big bang? Has it ever explained what is outside the edges of the universe (wherever that may be)? Has it ever explained what is outside that? Or outside that? I don’t disbelive science, I just find that it lacks answers to some pretty big questions. Like, say, what happens in between the smallest units of time (10 to the -43 second). Can it explain how I am able to type words that are understood by others? Can it explain collaspable wave functions?

I undstand the science can tell us how the universe works, but can it tell us why the universe obeys the laws that it does. I find the terminology funny, to say the least. Natural Laws. Ha. kinda suggests a law giver, doesn’t it? Did Einstein invent E=MC2 or did he deduce it?

I’m not religious, but I find the pomposity of the atheists unbelievable. You don’t know nearly as much as you think you do. So there.

VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 12:07 AM

Sikh

For millions upon millions, countless years was spread darkness,
When existed neither earth nor heaven, but only the limitless Divine Ordinance.
Then existed neither day or night, nor sun or moon;
As the Creator was absorbed in an unbroken trance.
Existed then neither forms of creation, nor of speech; neither wind nor water.
Neither was creation or disappearance or transmigration.
Then were not continents, neither regions, the seven seas, nor rivers with water flowing.
Existed then neither heaven or the mortal world or the nether world;
Neither hell or heaven or time that destroys.
Hell and heaven, birth and death were then not–none arrived or departed.

Then were not Brahma, Vishnu or Shiva:
None other than the Sole Lord was visible.
Neither existed then female or male, or caste and birth–
None suffering and joy received.
Unknowable Himself, was He the source of all utterance; Himself the unknowable unmanifested.
As it pleased Him, the world He created;
Without a supporting power the expanse He sustained.

Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva He created and to maya-attachment gave increase.
(To a rare one was the Master’s Word imparted.)
Himself He made His Ordinance operative and watched over it:
Creating continents, spheres and nether worlds, the hidden He made manifest.
Creating the universe Himself, He has remained unattached.
The compassionate Lord too has made the holy center [the human being].
Combining air, water, and fire, He created the citadel of the body.

The Creator fashioned the Nine Abodes [of sensation];
In the Tenth [the superconscious mind] is lodged the Lord, unknowable, limitless.
The illimitable Lord in His unattributed state of void assumed might;
He, the infinite One, remaining detached:
Displaying his power, He himself from the void created inanimate things.
From the unattributed void were created air and water.
Raising creation, He dwells as monarch in the citadel of the body.
Lord! In the fire and water [of the body] exists Thy light;
In Thy [original] state of void was lodged [unmanifest] the power of creation.

ronsfi on March 14, 2008 at 12:07 AM

@ The Ritz on March 14, 2008 at 12:06 AM

So basically your argument applies to Harry Potter. You associate Harry Potter to be on the same level as Jesus?

muyoso on March 14, 2008 at 12:08 AM

Tahitian

He was. Taaroa was his name.
He stood in the void: no earth, no sky, no men.
Taaroa calls the four corners of the universe; nothing replies.
Alone existing, he changes himself into the universe.
Taaroa is the light, he is the seed, he is the base, he is the incorruptible.
The universe is only the shell of Taaroa.
It is he who puts it in motion and brings forth its harmony.

ronsfi on March 14, 2008 at 12:09 AM

WRONG. Shows you have no understanding of science. Newton would never have discovered gravity if he hadnt noticed ALL of the evidence for the force existing first. First a scientist collects EVIDENCE, THEN he forms a theory.

You have formed a theory (the impossibility of the existence of God) without collecting evidence. Yet you assert it. You’re not much of a scientist.

aengus on March 14, 2008 at 12:09 AM

I’m not religious, but I find the pomposity of the atheists unbelievable. You don’t know nearly as much as you think you do. So there.

I know. Saying that an omnipotent God had you in mind and has a plan for you is so much more modest.

freevillage on March 14, 2008 at 12:09 AM

Vodun

Damballah (Sky-serpent loa and wise and loving Father archetype) created all the waters of the earth. In the form of a serpent, the movement of his 7,000 coils formed hills and valleys on earth and brought forth stars and planets in the heavens. He forged metals from heat and sent forth lightning bolts to form the sacred rocks and stones.

When he shed his skin in the sun, releasing all the waters over the land, the sun shone in the water and created the rainbow. Damballah loved the rainbow’s beauty and made her his wife, Aida-Wedo. (Aida-Wedo represents the sky powers and is symbolized by the rainbow; wife of Damballah, she shares his function as cosmic protector and giver of blessing.)

ronsfi on March 14, 2008 at 12:10 AM

@VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 12:07 AM

I think part of your problem is you want science to make crap up to make you feel good. Science is not religion. Science doesnt just go and explain things which aren’t observed and tested. Some of your questions have theories which have been thrown about in the science community, but since none of them can be proved as of yet, they dont proclaim them fact.

muyoso on March 14, 2008 at 12:11 AM

freevillage on March 14, 2008 at 12:09 AM

Did I say any such thing? No. You just can’t answer any of the questions I asked.

VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 12:12 AM

VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 12:07 AM

Ignorance is no excuse to open the doors to any old gibberish.

Has science ever told us why gravitational force is so weak?

There are explanations. Formal definitions that involve miniscule fractions of newtons.

But you misunderstand the motive of science – it ain’t so much a “why” but rather a “how”.

LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:12 AM

@ aengus on March 14, 2008 at 12:09 AM

WRONG AGAIN. I never said god could not exist. If fact, in this VERY THREAD, I said the EXACT opposite.

muyoso on March 14, 2008 at 12:12 AM

muyoso on March 14, 2008 at 12:11 AM

Exactly. I want science to be able to explain everything. It can’t. What should I do?

VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 12:13 AM

Tell me about the Catholic position (pardon the pun) on sex. contraception. wealth.

That’s three aspects of life. You claim that Catholicism controls every aspect of life, that it is a Total Belief System like Islam which isn’t true. If you want a detailed explanation then you ought to spend years studying at a Catholic seminary. I can’t ameliorate your ignorance in a series of short comments.

aengus on March 14, 2008 at 12:13 AM

“I don’t disbelive science, I just find that it lacks answers to some pretty big questions.”

Which is GREAT!

The big difference between science and religion is this:

When a scientist is asked a question that he can’t answer, he says “I don’t know. Let’s find out!”.

When a priest is asked the same question he just says “God!”.

c6gunner on March 14, 2008 at 12:13 AM

So basically your argument applies to Harry Potter. You associate Harry Potter to be on the same level as Jesus?

muyoso on March 14, 2008 at 12:08 AM

Totally lost me – so your question didn’t answer my question if that’s what you intended.

Well, I have to work tomorrow and it’s late. This is taking too long to be worth it since I can’t seem to get straight up responses from you.

But no problem. .. have a good night. Odds are AP will start another thread like this again. We can rejoin then!

Best.

The Ritz on March 14, 2008 at 12:13 AM

Did I say any such thing? No. You just can’t answer any of the questions I asked.

So what? Am I above or below 6′? Can you answer that? No? Well, maybe you should try your luck with religion. What does God say?

freevillage on March 14, 2008 at 12:13 AM

The Babylonian God finished his work within the span of six tablets of stone. The last and seventh stone exalted the handiwork and greatness of the deity’s work. Thus the comparison must be made that the seven days of creation found in the Bible borrowed its theme from the Babylonians, who had borrowed it from the Sumerians.

ronsfi on March 14, 2008 at 12:13 AM

But to have a physicalistic worldview that denies immaterial abstract entities, and that denies logical entailment, denies logical necessity, and instead this same worldview posits a materialistic universe that arose by chance and time is to ultimately deny reason itself…
ColtsFan on March 13, 2008 at 10:56 PM

I daresay Willard Quine, who clearly grasped more about both physicalism and logic than anybody in this forum (if not who’s ever lived), would have taken issue with that. But as he’s passed on, I’ll do what little I can.

Simply put, physicalism obviously does nothing to contradict or reject logic, mathematics, language, or for that matter thought or emotion. If any of those conclusions were entailed, obviously nobody would ever take the notion seriously at all. (If you’ve still any doubt, simply note how Quine, a pioneer of physicalism, dedicated the bulk of his life’s work to the study of logic and mathematics.)

Resisting the urge to grant special ontological status to things simply because doing so seems the easiest philosophical route is merely to follow the sage advice of William of Occam: “Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem” (”Entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity”–the closest thing to the popular notion of “Occam’s Razor” ever actually written by Occam). The only thing this approach inherently “denies” is laziness.
Blacklake on March 13, 2008 at 11:47 PM

I appreciate your learned interest in the advanced writings of a key 20th century epistemologist/philosopher named W.V.O. Quine, who was an atheist.

He was a sharp thinker, but he was wrong, in my humble opinion, about a couple of things: naturalized epistemology and the nature of logic, just to name a few.

As you know, Quine taught a version of Psychologism:

Throughout the twentieth century, and at the beginning of the twenty-first century, psychology exerted and exerts a powerful pull on philosophers who wish to put philosophy on the sure path of a science. Quine famously called for a return to psychologism in the 1960s. Such calls have kept the psychologism accusation alive. Amongst the accused one can find the names of Rudolf Carnap, Michael Dummett, Peter Geach, Nelson Goodman, Thomas Kuhn, John McDowell, Karl Popper, Wilfried Sellars, and Ludwig Wittgenstein (Kusch 1995, 7).

There are rational arguments against Quine’s psychologism.

Because Quine’s psychologism fails, therefore, Naturalism cannot account for the immaterial laws of logic.

ColtsFan on March 14, 2008 at 12:13 AM

@ VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 12:13 AM

Stop expecting so much. I want science to invent a computer with infinite storage. I know that won’t happen in my lifetime. Am I going to instead not use computers at all, or am I going to accept that the situation is like it is, and live my life to be as happy as I can?

muyoso on March 14, 2008 at 12:14 AM

You’re not much of a scientist.

Here’s a scientific experiment.

To test the theory of an “all-loving God”

I will shoot kittens until God stops me.

Let’s start a book on this…

LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:15 AM

You have formed a theory (the impossibility of the existence of God) (the impossibility of the existence of a Loch Ness monster made of green cheese on the Moon) without collecting evidence. Yet you assert it. You’re not much of a scientist.

aengus on March 14, 2008 at 12:09 AM

MB4 on March 14, 2008 at 12:15 AM

LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:12 AM

Again, I’m not endorsing any creation story of think that God watches over me and thinks I’m special. I just find it kinda strange that so many people are sure there is no such thing as a creator without being able to explain creation.

VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 12:15 AM

muyoso on March 13, 2008 at 11:57 PM

First a scientist collects EVIDENCE, THEN he forms a theory

Obviously not a scientist, Evidence of what? You have it Bss-Ackwards. A) Theory derived from observation/idea etc. B) gather evidence, design experiment to prove theory. Look up the Scientific method!

dmann on March 14, 2008 at 12:16 AM

I will shoot kittens until God stops me.

LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:15 AM

You may want to rephrase that.

FeralCat on March 14, 2008 at 12:16 AM

muyoso on March 14, 2008 at 12:14 AM

What? I explicitly say I don’t disbelive science, so your computer analogy if flawed. I just think its silly to jump to conclusions with incomplete knowledge.

VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 12:17 AM

Japanese

In the beginning, heaven and earth were not divided. Then, from the ocean of chaos, a reed arose, and that was the eternal land ruler, Kunitokotatchi.

Then came the female God, Izanami, and the male, Izanagi. They stood on the floating bridge of heaven and stirred the ocean with a jewelled spear until it curdled, and so created the first island, Onokoro. They built a house on this island, with a central stone pillar that is the backbone of the world. Izanami walked one way around the pillar, and Izanagi walked the other. When they met face to face, they united in marriage.

Their first child was named Hiruko, but he did not thrive, so when he was three, they placed him in a reed boat and set him adrift, he became Ebisu, God of fishermen.

Then Izanami gave birth to the eight islands of Japan. And finally Izanami began to give birth to the Gods who would fashion and rule the world — Gods of the sea and Gods of the land, Gods of wind and rain. But when Izanami gave birth to the God of fire, she was badly burned and died.

Izanagi was furious with the fire God and cut him into three pieces. Then he set out to search for Izanami. He went right down into the Land of Gloom looking for her. He called her, saying, “Come back, my love. The lands we are making are not yet finished!”

She came to him, saying, “You are too late. I have already eaten the food of this land, But I would like to return. Wait here for me, and I will ask permission from the spirits of the underworld. But do not try to look at me.”

ronsfi on March 14, 2008 at 12:18 AM

@ LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:15 AM

How about this contradiction? God is all powerful and all knowing. There is someone in the world who is molesting a 2 year old right now, which will scar her for the rest of her life. God has both the knowledge this is occurring, and the ability to stop it at any time. He either CANNOT stop it, which means he isnt all powerful, or he REFUSES to stop it, which means he isnt all loving/good. This applies hundreds of times over each day.

muyoso on March 14, 2008 at 12:18 AM

Oh dear,

Someone has gone and riled up all of the sky god worshippers.

JayHaw Phrenzie on March 14, 2008 at 12:19 AM

@ VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 12:17 AM

huh?

I just said that if you want science to answer everything, you will be disappointed. So dont expect it in the first place and you wont be disappointed.

muyoso on March 14, 2008 at 12:19 AM

freevillage on March 14, 2008 at 12:13 AM

Not a deep thinker, huh. I didn’t endorse a God that takes a personal interest in me, I just asked some questions. You couldn’t answer them so, to make yourself feel better, you painted me with what you view to be as the silly belief in a personal God.

VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 12:19 AM

That’s three aspects of life.

I can’t ameliorate your ignorance in a series of short comments.

And I will not waste my life researching your theocracy…and I don’t need to.

The simple truth is that Catholicism is a fascistic dictum that good sheep (members of the flock) will follow – and beg forgiveness if/when they fail.

Unfortunately there is no rational basis for establishing such a dictum. Ascribing law to some magical mystery man is really rather primitive.

LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:20 AM

@ dmann on March 14, 2008 at 12:16 AM

We are saying the same thing. Observations/evidence. I didnt mean collect evidence as in collecting to prove a certain thing. I meant observations basically.

muyoso on March 14, 2008 at 12:20 AM

WRONG AGAIN. I never said god could not exist. If fact, in this VERY THREAD, I said the EXACT opposite.

On this very thread I acknowledged that you said that.

I never said that A god could not exist.

Okay. Fair enough.

However my criticism goes still unanswered. You claim that the Biblical God does not exist and fail to provide proof, asserting meanwhile that this is the logical position. You haven’t said why atheism is more logical than agnosticism.

aengus on March 14, 2008 at 12:21 AM

Again, I’m not endorsing any creation story of think that God watches over me and thinks I’m special. I just find it kinda strange that so many people are sure there is no such thing as a creator without being able to explain creation.

VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 12:15 AM

Man is a marvelous curiosity. He thinks he is the Creator’s pet. He even believes the Creator loves him; has a passion for him; sits up nights to admire him; yes and watch over him and keep him out of trouble. He prays to him and thinks He listens. Isn’t it a quaint idea.
- Mark Twain

MB4 on March 14, 2008 at 12:21 AM

Egyptian
The God Atum, or Ra, Lord of the Universe, was the first of a divine line that produced two couples: Osiris and Isis, and Seth and Nephthys. Isis and her brother-husband ruled Egypt during a golden age, taking humanity under their protection. Seth, their brother, married to their sister Nephthys, became insanely jealous of Osiris and sought to destroy him. He lured Osiris into an open coffin, nailed it shut, and cast it into the Nile. Distraught, Isis searched everywhere for the coffin, finally finding it hidden in a sycamore tree in Phoenicia. When she returned with the coffin to Egypt, Seth seized the body of Osiris, cut it up into 14 pieces, and scattered the fragments. Isis, however, found them and, with the help of Anubis, the jackal God, put them back together, thus creating the first mummy.

Osiris’s posthumous son, Horus, was hidden from Seth by Isis. After he grew up, he avenged the death of his father by emasculating Seth but lost an eye in the struggle. Thoth, the ibis-headed God of wisdom and writing, intervened to heal both opponents, who were then summoned before a tribunal of Gods to determine their guilt or innocence. The deities found Horus in the right and ordered Seth to return his eye. Horus gave the eye to Osiris, who was then magically restored to life. Osiris, the first being to undergo death and resurrection, bequeathed the crown of Egypt to Horus and retired to the underworld, Amenthe, to rule over the dead. Spirits of the dead, who have been mummified after the example of Osiris, also may live eternally beyond the grave of Amenthe. The entrance lies in the extreme west beyond the sea where the sun descends over the earth.

ronsfi on March 14, 2008 at 12:21 AM

I just find it kinda strange that so many people are sure there is no such thing as a creator without being able to explain creation.

I find it strange too.

LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:21 AM

@ LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:20 AM

Don’t forget its a sin now to dirty the earth according to the pope. You Catholics better be buying Priuses and trumpeting global warming or else you are all sinning!!!

muyoso on March 14, 2008 at 12:22 AM

muyoso on March 14, 2008 at 12:19 AM

If not science, then what? Or are we doomed to an existence of… well… bumbling around in the dark, trying to scrape some happiness out of the earth?

VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 12:23 AM

@ aengus on March 14, 2008 at 12:21 AM

Read over my posts, i CERTAINLY offered my opinion on that.

muyoso on March 14, 2008 at 12:23 AM

Oh dear,

Someone has gone and riled up all of the sky god worshippers.

JayHaw Phrenzie on March 14, 2008 at 12:19 AM

Do they have stakes this time? I sure hope not.

MB4 on March 14, 2008 at 12:24 AM

I will shoot kittens until God stops me.

Let’s start a book on this…

LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:15 AM

Limey, you might not have to deal with god, but you will have to deal with me, if this is more than just talk.

Entelechy on March 14, 2008 at 12:24 AM

Christian

When a person dies, the physical body is separated from the soul, and the soul must be judged to be in a state of grace or a state of sin. This is the Immediate Judgment, which determines where the person will spend eternity. If the soul is in a state of grace, it goes to Heaven to await the Last Judgment. heaven, the abode of the Christian God, is located beyond the skies. Here, amid choirs of angels, blissful souls enter gates of pearl and walk golden streets.

However, condemned souls await the Last Judgment in Hell, located in the Earth’s center or, on a vaster scale, beneath the visible cosmos. Here the leader of the fallen angels, Satan, dwells in exile from heaven, flapping vast bat wings. (Occasionally, he visits Earth to attempt to seduce humankind in defiance of his former God.) Hell is a pit of visible darkness where the damned are punished in fiery heat or intense cold. They may be lashed by horned demons, rolled over sharp stones, etc. Above all, they suffer the worm of conscience, which reminds them incessantly how easily in life they might have earned the eternal bliss of God’s presence. In a special compartment of Hell called Limbo, the souls of unbaptized children and morally righteous people who lived before Christ’s coming are confined, not in torment, but forever excluded from bliss.

In a variation, some souls, probably the vast majority, who die in a state of grace but with some taint of sin as yet unpaid for, will be sentenced to a term in Purgatory, a place or state in which the soul can be purified until it is ready to dwell with God. In Purgatory, suffering is intense; souls are deprived of God’s presence and suffer the sensations of physical tortures. [Note: Indulgences, which can be gained through special prayers uttered either by the person before death (they can be stored up) or by people praying for the deceased can mitigate the taint of sin that sends souls to Purgatory. During the Middle Ages/Renaissance period in Europe, these indulgences could be bought for money from traveling priests, confessors, ministers, etc.]

On the day of the Last Judgment, four angels standing at Earth’s four corners will sound trumpets to initiate cataclysmic events. Christ (the son of the God) will descend from Heaven in triumph to judge all people and nations in the presence of one another. In many versions, only Christians will share in the reign over Earth.

ronsfi on March 14, 2008 at 12:24 AM

MB4 on March 14, 2008 at 12:21 AM

Yes yes, I like Twain too, but what does that have to do with what I wrote?

VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 12:24 AM

Catholicism do not “dictates almost every aspect of human life.”

I’ll make what I hope is a safe presumption and presume you to be Catholic.

Tell me about the Catholic position (pardon the pun) on sex. contraception. wealth.

Catholicism is not “theocracy” or “fascism.”

Can you find a recent HA post about the latest Vatican proclamations vis-a-vis ’sin’? Did this really happen?

How can you attempt to state, with a straight face, that Cathlicism is not a crushing control-freak?

LimeyGeek on March 13, 2008 at 11:59 PM

Of course I am Catholic.

If you really want to know about Catholicism, then do your own research, you have the entire Internet with Search Engines, why not starting with the Vatican website? Don’t just throw words on a message board.

How can you attempt to state, with a straight face, that Cathlicism is not a crushing control-freak?

Again, stop throwing baseless accusations and do your own research if you’re really sincere about finding answers without falsely accusing people or a Church.

Indy Conservative on March 14, 2008 at 12:24 AM

muyoso on March 14, 2008 at 12:18 AM

Indeed.

How about this :

If God is so all-powerful and loving, then why will I (a mere ant compared to God) be cast into a tortuous hell for failing to believe in Him?

If that’s true, then God is a brutal sadist and perhaps we should all side with Satan to conquer God once-and-for-all.

Hail Satanus!

LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:24 AM

@ VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 12:23 AM

First of all, science isnt a replacement for religion, they should NEVER be thought of on the same playing field. Second of all, why must there be something to MAKE you happy? Buy a puppy and play with it. Doesnt take a god to make you have fun with the puppy. None of the happiness in the world requires there to be some supreme being.

muyoso on March 14, 2008 at 12:25 AM

Limey, you might not have to deal with god, but you will have to deal with me, if this is more than just talk.

Entelechy on March 14, 2008 at 12:24 AM

Oh FFS

LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:25 AM

They were also very intelligent people who had great insight on humanity.

Mark Twain has great insight on humanity. Albert Einstein was a great physicist who did not have any useful (let alone great) insights on humanity.

aengus on March 14, 2008 at 12:26 AM

@ LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:24 AM

How about THIS. Why would Satan punish souls who have done HIS bidding on earth? Why would HELL be a terrible place of pain and torture? Satan is PUNISHING people for doing the very evil things, and denying the very being that he is pitted against. The whole thing makes NO sense.

muyoso on March 14, 2008 at 12:27 AM

Wow a real ol’fashion furball!!!

dmann on March 14, 2008 at 12:28 AM

With regards to abstract entities, he was a physicalist–i.e., there are no abstract entities, if by “abstract entities” you mean entities which are not inherently physical in nature. I think the burden lies on you to demonstrate that this implies some sort of contradiction (at this point I suppose I’m done speaking for Quine, who’d no doubt have made better arguments. So I’ll say on my own account that there bluntly isn’t one.)

Blacklake on March 14, 2008 at 12:04 AM

Yes, Quine was indeed a physicalist, and he was a strong nominalist concerning abstract entities.

The nature of the law of non-contradiction cannot be reduced, as Quine tried to do, to what is physical because of the following argument:

P1: the laws of logic reflect necessity and universality
P2: what is said to be logically necessary is true regardless of space, time, geography, biology, physics, sociology, culture, brain waves, evolution, etc
P3: but the Naturalist or atheist denies logical necessity in P1 and instead holds that logic is contingent in nature, and can be reduced to something non-necessary
P4: But what is logically contingent cannot at all, in any way, provide the ground for what is logically necessary
P5: If the Naturalist in P3 is true about logic being contingent, then P1 is false.
P6: But P1 is not false due to the truthfulness of P7
P7: the laws of logic are invariate and universal
P8: an example of P7 is the undeniability of the law of non-contradiction
P9: therefore any system, such as Quine’s, that deny the necessity of the law of non-contradiction must be rejected.

ColtsFan on March 14, 2008 at 12:29 AM

“You haven’t said why atheism is more logical than agnosticism.”

Atheism is more logical than Agnosticism because of a very simple reason:

If God exists, he must be infinitely more complex than man. In order for such complexity to exist, it must either have suddenly appreared out of nothingness. Either way, that poses a problem:

Such an infinitely complex being popping into existence out of nothingness is so improbable that we may as well consider it impossible.

On the other hand, a God who evolved would imply a whole separate universe of Gods. While this isn’t impossible per-say, it’s also quite improbable. And if we’re going to acknowledge evolution anyway, we may as well scrap God altogether.

c6gunner on March 14, 2008 at 12:29 AM

Most favorite verse on complex topics like this one

Da streiten sich die Leut herum
Oft um den Wert des Glücks,
Der eine heißt den andern dumm,
Am End’ weiß keiner nix.

–Ferdinand Raimund (Hobellied)

And so the people fight and fight
Often about luck’s worth
The one the other dumb derides
And in the end, none anything knows

Entelechy on March 14, 2008 at 12:30 AM

Indy Conservative on March 14, 2008 at 12:24 AM

You typed a whole bunch of characters without saying a darned thing.

I have no interest in your ‘faith’. I expect your ‘faith’ to have no interest in me.

Your ‘faith’ cannot establish any legitimacy in reality – that burden of proof is solely on you (collectively).

Tell me – what did the recent Vatican proclamation mean? Are you free to violate those statements without sinful consequence?

No you are not. You are a mind-slave to theocratic gangsters.

I have no need to prove a damned thing. You are the victim.

LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:30 AM

Ancient Greek

Hades, son of Cronus and brother of Zeus, was given Hades, the land of the dead as his inheritance. he was notorious for having abducted Persephone, daughter or Demeter, Goddess of agriculture. As Persephone gathered flowers in a field, he carried her away in his chariot to be queen of his underground realm. Her distraught mother had to accept the Gods’ edict that Persephone would be returned to her for only half the year. It is summer when Persephone is with her mother; winter is when she rules in Hades.

When the Fates fix the hour of a person’s death, red-robed infernal deities (called dogs of Hades) seize the dying mortal, deliver her a decisive blow, and carry her to the land of shadows. Entrances to the underworld are to be found in certain caverns and subterranean watercourses. The shade, or ghost, wanders across a bleak region of black poplars called the Grove of Persephone until it reaches the gate of the Kingdom of Hades. Here it encounters Cerberus, the three-headed watchdog, whose mouth dribbles black venom. The terrible beast will wag its tail and ears if appeased by honey cakes, and then the shade will be permitted to proceed.

Now the shade must cross Acheron, one of the five underground rivers. (The other four are Cocytus, Lethe, Phlegethon, and Styx.) Souls are taken to and fro over the river by old Charon, the official ferryman, who demands an obol (a small coin) for this service. If the dead person has not been buried with an obol in her mouth, Charon will pitilessly drive her away. She will have to wander the deserted shore and never find refuge.

After crossing the river, the soul is handed over to a tribunal in order to be assigned to an eternal home. This tribunal consists of Hades and his three assessors, Aeacus, Minos, and Rhadamanthus, all sons of Zeus and highly qualified judges. The tribunal examines the soul and assigns it to the type of afterlife it deserves. If the soul is of the ordinary sort, it remains in a neutral region of Hades reserve for people who deserve neither reward nor punishment. This is a dull, drab place where the sun never shines, and few things grow other than asphodel, a plant that thrives in ruins and cemeteries. Here the shade wanders joylessly among the shadows, a pale reflection of its former self. Many such souls go to the river Acheron, mount whatever conveyances they can get, and travel to the Acherusian Lake. Here they dwell and are purified of any evil deeds in order that they may receive the reward of good deeds according to what they deserve.

If the dead person has committed a great crime, it will be cast into Tartarus, a somber place with gates of bronze, surrounded by a triple wall, situated on the river Phlegethon. Here are held the rebel Titans, Gods who warred with Zeus. Here Tantalus, who killed his son and served him to the Gods as food, is condemned to stand in water that receded when he tries to drink it, and is tempted with fruit hanging above him that receded when he reaches for it. Cruel Sisyphus must roll a rock up a steep hill without respite. If crimes are attended by extenuating circumstances, the shade remains in Tartarus for only one year. It then goes to the shores of the Acherusian Lake, where it must seek forgiveness of those it has wronged.

If the soul is among the blessed, the fortunate few who have led pure lives, it is conducted to the Elysian Fields, also called the Islands of the Blest. here the dead can indulge in pleasures they enjoyed on earth amid sunlight and flower-filled meadows.

ronsfi on March 14, 2008 at 12:31 AM

muyoso on March 14, 2008 at 12:27 AM

What I was getting at is that IF God/Satan really exist, and we are witness to God’s influence on earth, we have clearly chosen the wrong side. We should all be Satanists.

Liberatum Satanus

LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:32 AM

muyoso on March 14, 2008 at 12:25 AM

K then. Creation is an accident. We shouldn’t try to be happy. life and death mean nothing. I can kinda see why Stalin and Moa had no problem with killing millions of people.*

* throw whatever religious atrocities you want at me. I won’t defend them. I’m just seeing a little more clearly why they had so little regard for human life.

VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 12:34 AM

Everyone has returned from death. Many persons do no believe this because they cannot remember it, yet although they have no memory of their birth, they do not doubt that they were born. The supreme goal is to be born no more. This can be accomplished when one understands that the world is an illusion, a mental construct. This knowledge, plus a willingness to understand that the self is likewise an illusion, liberates one to merge with the Universal Mind, the divine mind of Buddha, in the state of enlightenment known as Nirvana.

At the moment of death, the deceased enters the Bardo state, the afterdeath plane, lasting about 49 days between death and rebirth. The Bardo has three stages: the Chikhai Bardo, the Chonyid Bardo, and the Sidpa Bardo. The Chikhai Bardo begins at the moment of death, when the deceased has a supreme vision of the liberating Truth. But the dead person, unless trained in yoga or meditation, will not be able to remain in this transcendental state. Only those who have come close to negating the self can seize this opportunity to enter Nirvana. The great majority pass through the brilliantly intense divine light, unwilling to be absorbed into it. In this Bardo the deceased person may remain several days in a trancelike state, unaware that s/he has separated from the physical body.

In the second state, the Chonyid Bardo, the deceased encounters the dreamlike state of karmic illusion. (Karma is the psychic residue of our previous existence.) Thought forms generated by the deceased person’s own mental content take on terrifying reality. The deceased involuntarily fabricates encounters with good and evil powers, peaceful and angry deities. Buddhas (enlightened ones) and Bodhisattvas (semidivine beings who have deferred their own Nirvanic state in order to help others achieve it) appear majestic and awesome. Their radiance will cause the impure deceased person to shrink back so as to preserve his/her insignificant selfhood. Many lights and colors will bewilder the dead person. Evil karma may produce thought forms of flesh-eating demons making a frightful tumult, competing with each other to seize the deceased. In this Bardo, the deceased will experience a vision of judgment and punishment. Dharma-Raja, King of the Dead, holds a balance scale on which are placed black pebbles (evil deeds) and white pebbles (good deeds) to be weighed. Supervising the weighing is the monkey-headed god Shinje. Also present is a jury of Gods, some with animal heads, some with human heads. Dharma-Raja holds up the Mirror of Karma, in which the naked deceased person in reflected. Devils await to conduct evildoers to the hell-world of purgation. None of these deities or demons have any real existence; they are thought forms. If the deceased could realize this, s/he would enter the Nirvanic state.

In the third stage, the Sidpa Bardo, the deceased descends into the ultimate degradation of a new physical birth, having been unable to profit from experiencing the two previous Bardo states. Although the deceased might have taken rebirth in a nonhuman world or one of the Paradise realms, human life along generates the karma that makes it possible to end the rebirth cycle.

ronsfi on March 14, 2008 at 12:35 AM

And I will not waste my life researching your theocracy…and I don’t need to.

The simple truth is that Catholicism is a fascistic dictum that good sheep (members of the flock) will follow – and beg forgiveness if/when they fail.

Unfortunately there is no rational basis for establishing such a dictum. Ascribing law to some magical mystery man is really rather primitive.

LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:20 AM

You won’t research my beliefs..and you don’t need to.

But you’ll make overwhelming generalisations about something you admit to being ignorant of.

Why should anyone take you seriously?

aengus on March 14, 2008 at 12:36 AM

Creation is an accident.

Maybe

We shouldn’t try to be happy. life and death mean nothing

Why? How can you make this leap?

I don’t believe in supernatural fantasy creatures like God, yet I still strive to be happy, and value life with an ironically religious passion.

LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:36 AM

@ VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 12:34 AM

I wont throw any at you. Just curious as to why you didnt throw Hitler in there? Are you finally coming to the realization that he was really a christian? And the fact that people like Mao and Stalin were allowed to kill millions is evidence either of the inability of the christian God to stop them, or the uncaring nature of the christian God of non christian people. Allowing millions to die because they don’t believe in you? Sounds mighty pompous for a God which claims to be ALL that is good.

muyoso on March 14, 2008 at 12:36 AM

LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:36 AM

responding to muyoso

VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 12:37 AM

And so the people fight and fight
Often about luck’s worth
The one the other dumb derides
And in the end, none anything knows

Entelechy on March 14, 2008 at 12:30 AM

So let it be written, so let it be done.

MB4 on March 14, 2008 at 12:37 AM

Indy Conservative on March 14, 2008 at 12:24 AM

You typed a whole bunch of characters without saying a darned thing.

I have no interest in your ‘faith’. I expect your ‘faith’ to have no interest in me.

Your ‘faith’ cannot establish any legitimacy in reality – that burden of proof is solely on you (collectively).

Tell me – what did the recent Vatican proclamation mean? Are you free to violate those statements without sinful consequence?

No you are not. You are a mind-slave to theocratic gangsters.

I have no need to prove a damned thing. You are the victim.

LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:30 AM

You asked questions. You claimed you wanted to know. Now you’re attacking me and my Church. I guess that ends any discussion with you.

Indy Conservative on March 14, 2008 at 12:37 AM

@ aengus on March 14, 2008 at 12:36 AM

I am fairly well versed in Catholicism. I wonder how you can defend the church when it covers for pedophiles, moving them to new regions instead of actually applying the very morality and punishment the bible prescribes? How can you believe so many things which have no basis in the bible, based on a person who was elected by man to be the intermediary between humans and God?

muyoso on March 14, 2008 at 12:39 AM

It can’t. What should I do?

Think harder.

Why should anyone take you seriously?

I don’t care what you think of me. I am irrelevant. I am merely highlighting that ‘faith’ is an absurdly fallacious house of cards, and that it shares many ugly memes.

LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:39 AM

muyoso on March 14, 2008 at 12:36 AM

I have yet to ascribe anything to a creator other than creation. Ever heard of the concept of an absent God. Did his work then went away?

I’m just saying, the way you lay things out, it seems that life, as an accidental blip in eternity, has no significance beyond what we choose to give it, and seeing as how there are no true answers to any of life’s big quesiotns (science cannot give us those) it doesn’t seem hard to not value life at all as long as you feel you are doing what you want.

VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 12:39 AM

Islamic
Allah, a supreme, personal, and inscrutable God, will punish those who turn to other Gods and fail to recognize his chosen messenger, Mohammed. A drop of blood shed in the cause of Allah, a night spent in his defense, is of more avail than praying and fasting. Whoever falls in battle will be forgiven for his sins.

At death, the soul in the tomb is visited by the Examiners, Munkar and Nakir, two black angels with breath like violent storms and eyes like lightning flashes. They question the terrified soul concerning its faith. If its answers are satisfactory, sweet breezes from paradise will blow upon the soul and its tomb will be filled with light until the Final Judgment. (Souls of prophets and martyrs are admitted to Paradise directly.) But it its answers are unsatisfactory, the walls of the tomb will close in to crush the soul; it shall await the Final Judgment while being stung by scorpions and beaten with an iron mace.

On the day of the Final Judgment, the angel Israfil will blow a warning blast upon his trumpet. At a second blast all creatures will die, and the material world will melt. At a third blast the souls of all humankind will issue from his trumpet like a swarm of bees to be reunited with their bodies made new. They will stand before the divine tribunal, waiting in silence before Allah as He sits in judgment, for no one may speak without Allah’s permission. Mohammed, advancing immediately to the front of the assemblage, will be permitted to speak for those who profess Islam.

The angel Gabriel will hold up an enormous scale, half of it covering Paradise, the other half covering Hell. Every person’s deeds will be weighed, and exact justice will be done. To each person will be given a book, the record of her or his life. Those whose books are placed in their right hands are blessed, while those whose books are placed in their left hands are damned. They await sentencing in shoes of fire, their skulls boiling like pots. At last, Allah passes sentence upon the righteous and the wicked.

Now all the souls must cross the Bridge of Sirat, which spans the distance from Earth to Paradise, passing directly over Hell. Although this bridge is hair-thin and razor-sharp, it will broaden out beneath the steps of the faithful. Infidels will lose their balance and topple into the abyss.

Hell has seven levels. The first and mildest is for sinners among the true believers, who will enter Paradise after purification. The second is for Jews, the third for Christians, the fourth for Sabians, the fifth for Magians, the sixth for abandoned idolators, and the seventh and worst for hypocrites of all religions. In Hell the damned will suffer various tortures. True believers, lying on couches in Paradise, will see the damned suffer and laugh at them scornfully.

Dividing Hell and Heaven is an impassable wall, al Araf, covered with contemptible beings whose good works exactly cancel out their evil ones, thus fitting them for neither place.

In Paradise every desire of soul and body shall be satisfied.

ronsfi on March 14, 2008 at 12:40 AM

You asked questions. You claimed you wanted to know

No. Perhaps you have difficulty picking up on the rhetorical.

I don’t want your answers. I don’t care. You need to answer these questions.

LimeyGeek on March 14, 2008 at 12:41 AM

Hebrew
The soul may have difficulty separating from the physical body at death and may experience a loss of identity. To prevent this, Dumah (Silence), guardian angel of the dead, asks each soul for its Hebrew name. If the soul in life has learned a Torah verse that begins with its Hebrew name and ends with the last letter of its name, it will remember its name in death.

The newly dead soul may be unable to silence all the sensory images and noise that cling to if from this world. Two angels stand at each end of the world and toss the soul back and forth to get rid of this earthly static. Otherwise, the lost soul would wander in the world of Tohu (Confusion and Emptiness), perhaps for hundreds of years.

After death the impure soul goes to Gehenna (Gehinnom). It is located beneath the land and sea and has entrances at both places. It is immeasurably large and cold, but within it are rivers of fire. Here the soul is purged of all defilement that it has accumulated during its lifetime. Punishments may consist of being cast into fire and snow or being hanged from different limbs of the spirit body. The thoroughly wicked remain here in everlasting disgrace. The ordinary soul need stay no more than a year, during which time it can be helped by prayers and sacrifices made by the living. Gehenna is emptied on the Sabbath, and the souls are given a glimpse of the light of Paradise.

Now the soul is ready to enter Gan Eden, where it will be bathed in a River of Light to cleanse away all lingering earthly illusions. First it goes to the lower Gan Eden, the heaven of emotional fervor. It will revel in benign emotions extended toward God and other souls. Souls with common interests form heavenly societies at which they serve God according to their area of specialization.

Ascending to the higher Gan Eden, the soul will once again bathe in the River of Light, this time to forget the tumultuous emotions of the lower Eden. Here the goal is to gain understanding of the divine mind. Each midnight God Himself visits upper Gan Eden to share His wisdom with those who have attained it.

Once the soul has gained all the understanding of which it is capable in heaven, it will be permitted to strive for further perfection on earth through reincarnation, a process which is repeated until the soul has built a complete spiritual body through good deeds.

After the number of souls meant to be created has been achieved, God will bring about the reunion of souls and bodies. At this time, the Messiah, an ideal ruler of an earthly Kingdom of God, will summon all humankind to dwell in peace and righteousness under divine sovereignty. The resurrection of the dead will take place; the spiritual body will be reunited with the physical body it formerly inhabited. Or, alternatively, the resurrection will be a materialization of the level of spiritual body that the soul has attained through many incarnations. these materialized souls will then perform the remaining deeds required of them to complete their spiritual bodies in a world free of death and evil.

After a time the earthly rule of the Messiah will end and the Last Judgment will take place. God, garbed in white raiment with hair like pure wool, will site upon a throne of fiery flames to judge all people in one another’s presence. The wicked will be doomed and the righteous will be transported to a newly created heavenly or earthly paradise.

ronsfi on March 14, 2008 at 12:43 AM

@ VolMagic on March 14, 2008 at 12:39 AM

Ok, absent God. You think the big bang wsa God, and then EVERYTHING else that exists and has been created was not the work of God. If you want to think of the big bang as God, it certainly isnt any more absurd than anything else I have heard. I don’t understand why you think you need a meaning to life. Why must there be a meaning? Why is it impossible for you to enjoy life without thinking you are special? I never understood that. I dont understand why there has to be a “why” for everything.

muyoso on March 14, 2008 at 12:44 AM

And the fact that people like Mao and Stalin were allowed to kill millions is evidence either of the inability of the christian God to stop them, or the uncaring nature of the christian God of non christian people. Allowing millions to die because they don’t believe in you? Sounds mighty pompous for a God which claims to be ALL that is good.

muyoso on March 14, 2008 at 12:36 AM

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not
omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
- Epicurus

MB4 on March 14, 2008 at 12:45 AM

ColtsFan on March 14, 2008 at 12:29 AM

P1: the laws of logic reflect necessity and universality

That in itself defies logic and by referencing this in P3 you have created a circular argument based on the subscription to P1. Pretty slick if you assume!

dmann on March 14, 2008 at 12:45 AM

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