Interesting. Please elaborate.

aengus on March 4, 2008 at 5:24 PM

I had the pleasure of living in Moscow for nearly two years and as any Russian will tell you Moscovites are different than Russians. However, I did travel and ended up marrying a lovely girl from a large town so I got a sampling of the country.

Russians are extremely friendly and generous until they get drunk. Then stay away from them because they are likely to throw a punch for no reason. It isn’t really hard to avoid the drunks because they do tend to get plastered. Also, when asked I always said nice things about Russia which gave the Russians permission to bitch about their country. But I never criticized Russia or the her politicians because then they got really defensive. Almost the exact opposite of the US.

But returning to my original point, this does not give the Ukrainians an international right to freeload Russian oil and it doesn’t make the Russians evil for shutting oil supply for non-payment. You think like a communist would think, not like a free market supporter should think.

Aristotle on March 4, 2008 at 4:12 PM

Actually, the Ukrainians are thinking like capitalists. Either Russia gives them subsidized natural gas and oil or the Russians can’t use the Ukrainian pipelines to supply Europe. The rest is negotiation for price.

- The Cat

P.S. I didn’t read it, but I did play the video game.

They have a permanent inferiority complex which is why they behave macho, like a toad puffing itself up.

Interesting. Please elaborate.

If you economically abuse someone, you cannot expect them to sit there and take it: they will adapt; and you will be very surprised by their adaptation if you expect them to just sit there!

So increased gas rates are a loser for Russia…just as increased tax rates are a loser for America.

Too bad the folks in charge can’t understand basic economics.

None of this makes apologies for collaborators, but you can’t sweep Russian persecution of the Ukrainian people under the carpet.

The Russians have persecuted the Ukrainians, no doubt. The Ukrainians have also persecuted other nations and so on. But returning to my original point, this does not give the Ukrainians an international right to freeload Russian oil and it doesn’t make the Russians evil for shutting oil supply for non-payment. You think like a communist would think, not like a free market supporter should think.

This explains what must have made you such a deranged apologist for the evils of Russian (and by proxy Soviet) imperialism.

Right. Logic is not one of your strongest traits, is it not? How is being born in Ukraine and realizing their downsides should make one a “deranged apologist for the evils of Russian imperialism”. Moron.

I DON’T make any apologies for the Russians (as i mentioned several times) i’m just saying the Ukrainians are just as bad and even worse – and thus it is wrong blindly supporting them over the Russians even though they are indeed have not paid for the oil they get, and making notably moronic excuses such as “they were opressed by Stalin 70-80 years ago”.

How do i know, you may ask? I was born there.
And people who ignorantly clean up the Ukrainians are classified as Nazi apologists in my book.
Aristotle on March 4, 2008 at 2:46 PM

This explains what must have made you such a deranged apologist for the evils of Russian (and by proxy Soviet) imperialism.

The Russian empire was the birthplace of modern anti-semitism – the massive pogroms in the late 19th and early 20th centuries organised by the Russian Imperial government are well documented . Don’t pretend they are such great anti-fascists – they signed a non-aggression pact with Hitler for Gawds sake, carving up Poland in the process and couldn’t give a monkeys about what happened to the Jews. When the Ukrainians lost the civil war against the Bolsheviks they then had inflicted on them one of the great genocides of the 20th century. None of this makes apologies for collaborators, but you can’t sweep Russian persecution of the Ukrainian people under the carpet.

upinak on March 4, 2008 at 2:38 PM

Russia’s annual military spending is less than France or the UK. They only get to that level by fleecing others for natural gas. They have a permanent inferiority complex which is why they behave macho, like a toad puffing itself up.

I lived in Odessa and Kiev as well as in Minsk, Beylorus from 94-96.

The Soviets have pretty much Russified Ukraine and dumbed down the phenomenon. 94-96 were still the years of pro-russian governance.

I’m speaking about the more recent years, Shukhevits getting titled by the goverment and adored byt the people is just one example of the closet Nazi sympathy coming to the open.

And it’s not only in Ukraine, it’s in the Baltic states too.

This is not incidental collaboration, it’s idiological collaboration which is glorified by a significant percentage of Ukrainians to this day.

Aristotle on March 4, 2008 at 3:17 PM

I lived in Odessa and Kiev as well as in Minsk, Beylorus from 94-96. I learned to speak a dirty Russian-Ukrainian mix in Odessa which is largely not understandable to my associates from Petersberg and other more proper parts of Russia. What I’m getting at is that I was completely immersed in the culture–not some 1 week tourist.

I never once saw this ideological glorification you speak of. I remember speaking to a man who spoke with disguist of seeing the first Nazi tanks roll into Kiev. I saw the reverence of Babi Yar and no one proud of the murdering done there of minorities. I listened to the soldiers and civilians who lived through the occupation as they shared their histories at the National Museum of the Great Patriotic War. None shared those ideologies you speak of. But, there are extremists everywhere and I do not doubt they exist, but do doubt they are as prevelant as you speak.

As for oil and gas, all I can add is anecdotal experience. My apartments never had the gas turned on until at least November. I went over 9 months without a hot shower in my apartment. Why, gas and oil shortages. Ukraine IS Russias whipping boy.

rbj on March 4, 2008 at 3:08 PM

You are pushing the same idiotic and nonsencial notion that being starved by Communists somehow makes it OK being a Pro-Nazi and forming SS and Kapo units that mass-murdered minorities. This is not incidental collaboration, it’s idiological collaboration which is glorified by a significant percentage of Ukrainians to this day.

See also, Finland siding with Germany during WWII because of the Soviet invasion there.

Now it is true that Gazprom can sell to whomever it wants, but as those pipelines cross Ukrainian territory, Ukraine gets to say “you can use our territory, but only under our terms”.

I think there is something to be said about the ‘collections issue.’ From 2006: “Gazprom plans to increase the price of gas to Ukraine to $230 (american) per 1000 cubic meters from the current $50 (american). That $50 price level reflects the still suffocating grip of antiquated Soviet-era subsidised rates.”

Ol mommy Russia has embraced capitalism, and the free market shock from a marxist system to a capitalist system has demanded gazprom rapidly increase prices to cover expenses. Russia wants those euros from an energy hungry Europe, and it has to go through the Ukraine to get ‘em.

That ledes to the ‘power issue’ you mentioned.

What ignorant garbage. The Soviet Union was an anti-semitic cesspit – the Nazis got many ideas from the Russian’s own pogroms.
And the Ukraine was a soviet provice that was conquered by the Nazis you cretin.

Russia is not much higher than the Islamofascist states on the list of enemies of the free democratic world. Fortunately their armed forces today are a rusting pile of crap run by incompetents.

Pax americana on March 4, 2008 at 2:30 PM

You promised ignorant garbage – and indeed you have delivered.

Ukrainian Kapos were responsible for rounding up most Ukrainian Jews, there were several Ukrainian Waffen-SS divisions and there is still great public sentiment in Ukraine for the Nazi collaborators such as Shukhevits. Overall, Ukrainian antisemitism is much bigger than Russian.

Recently, Ukrainian president awarded a “Hero of the State” title to Shukhevits, who was a Nazi collaborator and mass murderer.

How do i know, you may ask? I was born there.
And people who ignorantly clean up the Ukrainians are classified as Nazi apologists in my book.

Pax americana on March 4, 2008 at 2:30 PM

Really? I don’t think they are as rusty as you think.

How about Ukraine and the Baltic States paying reparations for being Nazis and murdering countless Jews and Russians?

Aristotle on March 4, 2008 at 2:16 PM

What ignorant garbage. The Soviet Union was an anti-semitic cesspit – the Nazis got many ideas from the Russian’s own pogroms.
And the Ukraine was a soviet provice that was conquered by the Nazis you cretin.

Russia is not much higher than the Islamofascist states on the list of enemies of the free democratic world. Fortunately their armed forces today are a rusting pile of crap run by incompetents.

LOL! How about Russia paying reparations to the citizens of Ukraine for Stalin and other murderous Soviet regimes?

How about Ukraine and the Baltic States paying reparations for being Nazis and murdering countless Jews and Russians? I’m not suggesting that, i’m just saying comparing a few years old debt to 70 year old crimes against humanity by previous regemes is beyond stupid.

Maybe you’re not aware that any Ukrainian “collaboration” with the Nazis was a direct result of Stalin’s mass-murder in Ukraine?

OhEssYouCowboys on March 4, 2008 at 2:05 PM

Yip, my grandmother and her brothers who were murdered by Ukrainian SS will be so thrilled to hear that.

The issue that I brought up was – the possibility that political motivations could, once again, result in devastation in Ukraine. Once again, the forced collectivization efforts of Stalin, in Ukraine, were POLITICALLY motivated. So, too, are the actions of Putin.

No doubt they are politically motivated moves, but you ignore that as long as Russia doesn’t physically invade Ukraine, it has a right to cut oil to anyone they desire, and more so to freeloaders who don’t pay for it. Comparing it to Stalinism pretty much diminishes the point you were trying to make.

dispute over debts

LOL! How about Russia paying reparations to the citizens of Ukraine for Stalin and other murderous Soviet regimes?

Ukraine FTW!

Russia, A global organized crime syndicate has total control of it’s own state and will extort the world for tribute and protection services. Long Live the KGB Mafia.

Think_b4_speaking on March 4, 2008 at 1:58 PM

Might wanna keep an eye on Poland. Trust me on this.

Limerick on March 4, 2008 at 2:04 PM

I totally agree with you. Sooner or Later, but I don’t think it will just be the Ukraine.