Times: John McCain not a real American?
posted at 10:16 am on February 28, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
The staff at the New York Times has burned the midnight oil trying to find ways to derail John McCain’s campaign. After endorsing him in the primary, the paper then ran an unsubstantiated smear against him as a philanderer. Now they ask whether he is eligible for the office, given his birth in the Panama Canal zone while his father served the country:
The question has nagged at the parents of Americans born outside the continental United States for generations: Dare their children aspire to grow up and become president? In the case of Senator John McCain of Arizona, the issue is becoming more than a matter of parental daydreaming.Mr. McCain’s likely nomination as the Republican candidate for president and the happenstance of his birth in the Panama Canal Zone in 1936 are reviving a musty debate that has surfaced periodically since the founders first set quill to parchment and declared that only a “natural-born citizen” can hold the nation’s highest office.
Almost since those words were written in 1787 with scant explanation, their precise meaning has been the stuff of confusion, law school review articles, whisper campaigns and civics class debates over whether only those delivered on American soil can be truly natural born. To date, no American to take the presidential oath has had an official birthplace outside the 50 states.
“There are powerful arguments that Senator McCain or anyone else in this position is constitutionally qualified, but there is certainly no precedent,” said Sarah H. Duggin, an associate professor of law at Catholic University who has studied the issue extensively. “It is not a slam-dunk situation.”
It’s a slam-dunk to the millions of military families whose service to this country should have left then with no doubts about their children being relegated to second-class citizenry. They sacrificed enough for their country without having to sacrifice the futures of their children. Any other conclusion would amount to a penalty for military service on those who did not volunteer.
The Founding Fathers recognized this. They passed a bill in 1790, three years after the adoption of the Constitution, which made clear that “natural born” applied to children born of American citizens “outside the limits of the United States”. That law remains in effect and has never been challenged. At the least, it speaks to the intent of the founders when they used the term “natural born” in the Constitution.
It’s beyond absurd to argue that John McCain doesn’t qualify to run as an American for the presidency. The candidate or party that files a lawsuit to challenge him on this point runs the risk of alienating a large swath of the public who have served this nation in uniform, in diplomacy, and in government.
Besides, if the Times thinks this to be an issue, then why did they endorse McCain in January? Didn’t they bother to do their research on him then?










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I agree. He’s a Martian.
Indy Conservative on February 28, 2008 at 10:18 AM
Drip ….
Drip ….
Drip ….
Death by a thousand paper cuts. . .
rockhauler on February 28, 2008 at 10:18 AM
Oh good lord.
Mike Honcho on February 28, 2008 at 10:18 AM
I think I could run the newspaper in my sleep, at least equal to the job they’re doing now. And to think that the editors stop some stories from going to print… imagine how bad those were.
Vizzini on February 28, 2008 at 10:20 AM
Pathetic. I think they’re a little nervous about the poll that said he was leading Barrack and Hillary.
Like I said, Pathetic and desperate.
Geronimo on February 28, 2008 at 10:20 AM
Well that does it. I was willing to overlook the accusation of philandering but now to discover he is really a Panamanian philanderer. I can’t vote for him now.
sdd on February 28, 2008 at 10:22 AM
The folks at the NY Times never cease to amaze me with their leftist idiocy. For them to endorse a GOP candidate, see him take front-runner status, then immediately begin trying to derail him speaks multitudes about hidden agendas within their staff. For anyone to expect anything less than this type of treatment towards the GOP from such a liberal outfit would be naive at best.
BackseatDriver on February 28, 2008 at 10:22 AM
Does he wear Panama hats?
profitsbeard on February 28, 2008 at 10:24 AM
I would expect this kind of nonsense from Joy Behar, or Sean Penn, but the N(ew)Y(arns)T(oday)? On second thought, yeah it fits.
As my daughter is one of those overseas military brats I guess I better go get her a green card before they send her back.
Limerick on February 28, 2008 at 10:25 AM
There was another Senator from Arizona about whom that same question was asked when he ran for President.
After all, when Barry Goldwater was born, it was still called the Arizona Territory.
Sekhmet on February 28, 2008 at 10:25 AM
Thanks New York Times, keep it up. You are going to slime Maverick all the way to the White House. Lol
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 28, 2008 at 10:30 AM
I was so depressed when the Weekly World News ceased publication.
I didn’t know that the NYT would take over the WWN’s penchant for wild fabrications and bizarre, unproved assertions.
I’m guessing Osama Obama will end up being the NYT’s “Bat Boy.”
MrScribbler on February 28, 2008 at 10:30 AM
John McCain is a real American. He is just not a real Republican.
Branch Rickey on February 28, 2008 at 10:30 AM
Funny how they were unaware of this “serious issue” during the 2000 primaries.
BuzzCrutcher on February 28, 2008 at 10:31 AM
This is the kind of stuff that is fun for Constitutional lawyers and scholars to kick around but really is meaningless. Nobody is taking this seriously nor should they (though it would be a nice way to get a real Republican in as the nominee).
I’m just surprised that Senator Triceratops isn’t claiming that he is a Hispanic-American since he was born in Panama.
highhopes on February 28, 2008 at 10:31 AM
Ladies and gentleman…. a new friggin low for the NYT. Please do not compare them to the National Enquirer anymore. That is an insult to the fine journalists at the N.E.
Sugar Land on February 28, 2008 at 10:31 AM
This is exactly what I expect from these people. Nothing they do will surprise me. Well, unless they came out and openly admitted their liberal bias.
thekingtut on February 28, 2008 at 10:31 AM
I spent valuable days into months writing to Rich Lowry at NRO after his column on the NY Times. The gist was that conservatives need to realize that just because the Times put out a story, that doesn’t necessarily mean the story is slanted, wrong, or bad.
I disagree.
Jaibones on February 28, 2008 at 10:31 AM
If I were Maverick, I’d run this story out in a press conference, just like Duncan Hunter did with Patreus or Betray Us? lol
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 28, 2008 at 10:31 AM
Does “natural born” mean anyone born via c-section can’t be President, either?
Maybe we should call him “John McDuff”…
Pop quiz: what do you call the disease that turns the Gray Lady into a doddering fool?
“Sulzheimers”
Mr. Bingley on February 28, 2008 at 10:31 AM
How does the NY Times spell…
D E S P E R A T I O N
Always Right on February 28, 2008 at 10:32 AM
Of course, McCain is constitutionally qualified to be President. However…
So is Arnold a second-class citizen? If not, why not? If yes, is it ok?
freevillage on February 28, 2008 at 10:33 AM
You had me at “The staff at the New York Times…”
sleepy-beans on February 28, 2008 at 10:34 AM
John McCain is a real Republican, he’s just not a real conservative.
snedecor on February 28, 2008 at 10:34 AM
Well, they tried to harm him by endorsing him, now they try harm through innuendo. Nothing new here.
TeeJay on February 28, 2008 at 10:34 AM
How sweet. Children of American citizens might not be “real” naturalized citizens because they were born while their parents were outside the country, but children of illegal aliens are “real” naturalized citizens because their parents managed to get over the border and give birth here. There is something very screwed up with our country.
Sue on February 28, 2008 at 10:35 AM
Does this mean if he wins the presidency he will be our first Hispanic president?
sdd on February 28, 2008 at 10:35 AM
This is actually an old trick that I belive was used before (Jackson I think) but more importantly is this.
This is the type of bush league stuff you use when you need something. I suspect and I wrote my reason on the CQ blog last week that Sen McCain is going to defeat Sen Obama. As the war is the single most important issue this is very important.
This may not just be the times being the times, it may be the times playing whatever cards they can play early.
petertheslow on February 28, 2008 at 10:38 AM
Test
poodlemom on February 28, 2008 at 10:39 AM
I think his hat of choice is a Sombrero, and I did hear once he wore Bermuda shorts.
Rational Thought on February 28, 2008 at 10:39 AM
How pathetic.
someguy on February 28, 2008 at 10:39 AM
As much as Billy Boy was our first black president.
thekingtut on February 28, 2008 at 10:41 AM
Wrong approach. The issue is filled with arcane legalisms that would be lost on the general public. You wait and see if there is a legal challenge, if so you take it to the courts and fight the battle there.
By going public with something like this, Triceratops just gives the story more credibility than it should recieve.
highhopes on February 28, 2008 at 10:41 AM
Isn’t triceratops the dinosaur with horns on its head? If so, no wonder McCain seems to resemble a rino. [rimshot]
Bigfoot on February 28, 2008 at 10:43 AM
Um… in 1937 when McCain was born, the Canal Zone was an American Territory. Ergo, McCain was born on American soil. You can even forget the fact that he was born to a military family serving outside the country, the Canal Zone was American until Jimmuh decided it’d be a great idea to give it back.
This is a new low even for the Times.
crazy_legs on February 28, 2008 at 10:43 AM
NYT!
So way past like stop digging.
Leftys – don’t ya just love ‘em?
Message to the Left: You must remember to not believe
your own propaganda.
You made it up.
You cannot automatically assume everyone else believes it too.
We got two huge problems next year.
Pakistan’s nukes and Iran’s nukes.
Where John McCain was born doesn’t qualify much.
davem on February 28, 2008 at 10:43 AM
This is the dumbest story of the day.
If the NYT thinks that Americans, born of American, on Military bases or in another country, are not Americans. Then someone tell me WTF they think anchor babies are?
ugh
upinak on February 28, 2008 at 10:44 AM
It would seem that natural born would mean born a citizen, which he was. I don’t get the problem. He didn’t do anything to become a citizen, he just was.
Rose on February 28, 2008 at 10:44 AM
You got it. Rhino-like dinosaur to describe RINO dinosaur.
highhopes on February 28, 2008 at 10:44 AM
I get so tired of this kind of crap from the Left.
Geoffrey de Bouillon on February 28, 2008 at 10:45 AM
Another test ;-(
poodlemom on February 28, 2008 at 10:46 AM
The New York Times is proving yet again why it is the birdcage liner of record. A few more articles like this one and even liberals may start questioning the ethics of the paper’s management.
They endorsed the guy. Then, they hit him quite literally below the belt. Now they question if a man who was born to military parents on land controlled or at least administered by the USA, served in the military himself, and suffered as a POW is American enough to serve as President.
I’d love to dream that the Times is engaging a brilliant campaign to get conservatives like me to vote for him by hurling badges of honor upon him (note to the Times… it’s working!). Even that would be a misuse of journalistic ethics, though. The far more likely scenario is that the Gray Lady is so desperate to see her agenda done that she has sunk to the ethical level of a prostitute. Literally, the Gray Lady is screwing everyone she can to make another buck. That’s a harsh way to say it, but I think it fits.
flutejpl on February 28, 2008 at 10:47 AM
Does anyone doubt that someone somewhere will actually try to sue if McCain is elected? And at that point one imagines this issue will be legally clarified in a way it hasn’t been to date. Which could have interesting ramifications for future candidates, if any legal ruling either broadens or narrows the generally accepted understanding of what the constitutional clause really means.
rightsideup on February 28, 2008 at 10:47 AM
These idiotic attacks should tell you just how much liberals fear John McCain.
He’s gonna win and there’s nothing they can do about it.
amkun on February 28, 2008 at 10:48 AM
I first saw this crap being circulated by the holy purists at Free Republic, along with the Ted Sampley slanders.
Sorry, can’t blame this one totally on liberals.
funky chicken on February 28, 2008 at 10:48 AM
I thought this was taken care of when Reagan was president. I remember the issue being brought up back then and they passed some sort of law or bill which plugged this hole.
Just A Grunt on February 28, 2008 at 10:49 AM
Same kind of people, different politics. That’s the only difference.
amkun on February 28, 2008 at 10:50 AM
It’s the far-right and far-left meeting up, and both agreeing that John McCain is just not acceptable as POTUS.
Is that Liberal Fascism, or John Birchian Fascism, or just Fascism?
OR is there a better word for it?
funky chicken on February 28, 2008 at 10:51 AM
It does make for interesting office conversation. It ranks right up there with Bill Clinton being the Vice President if Hillary gets elected.
monkslh on February 28, 2008 at 10:53 AM
I can’t stand McCain and will only vote for him if he kicks JUAN HERNANDEZ to the curb, says he will pardon Ramos & Compeon, and puts a REAL CONSERVATIVE on his ticket
but THIS IS STUPID.
He was American enough to serve in the military.
stenwin77 on February 28, 2008 at 10:54 AM
This is no way to start the day!
poodlemom on February 28, 2008 at 10:55 AM
amkun, yes, exactly. And they all support the troops, of course.
Universal internet access just lets them make their voices heard, which isn’t a bad thing, I suppose. Those types of people were always out there, and the fact that they are the loudest and most dedicated commenters at various sites around the web doesn’t mean they have that many fellow travellers….I hope.
funky chicken on February 28, 2008 at 10:55 AM
Actually, I think this is a golden opportunity to sink some ships here. One, the NYT of course. But how about getting some of the open borders crowd on record? How about , say, Ted “the children, the children!!!” Kennedy trying to defend illegals diving across the border to give birth, then saying that child can bring more illegal family members, while saying that a child born to American parents stationed overseas in the defence of their country don’t count. Could be fun.
tomk59 on February 28, 2008 at 10:56 AM
I just can’t seem to generate any sympathy for McCain. The more I come to know about him the more I dislike him. The George Will column that came out today is devastating. His pandering apology the other day because someone dared speak Obama’s middle name was weak. I can’t believe we are stuck with this guy as our nominee. The only candidate that is worse is Ron Paul.
echosyst on February 28, 2008 at 10:56 AM
You said it well.
carbon_footprint on February 28, 2008 at 10:57 AM
Yeah, it’s his middle name Noreiga?
Vote Sauron 08 on February 28, 2008 at 10:58 AM
Wasn’t the Canal Zone a part of the US back then anyway? You know like Guam, PR and the US Virgin Islands are now?
baldilocks on February 28, 2008 at 11:00 AM
The Times is really grasping at straws again…
The Constitution makes it clear: A person born of American parents abroad are US citizens.
JetBoy on February 28, 2008 at 11:00 AM
No. McCain’s middle name is ‘Hernandez.’
Wink Wink!
Indy Conservative on February 28, 2008 at 11:01 AM
That’s what I thought.
baldilocks on February 28, 2008 at 11:02 AM
NYC won’t need another Al Qaida attack to be destroyed.
The meltdown of the thousands of LimoLiberals and moonbats dwelling there when their Obamessiah is rejected by the country will be enough to set off the China Syndrome in Manhattan.
If you think about it that would be one “bright spot” for them. They would be in a communist dictatorship just like they have always wanted to be but didn’t want to give up their wealth or sybaritic lifestyles. And the bright side of it for the rest of the country is that we won’t have to listen to them screeching anymore. The Chinese won’t put up with their bullcrap.
Nahanni on February 28, 2008 at 11:03 AM
I am not a McPain fan, but I can tell you that I am liking what the NYT is doing less and less with each passing minute. This rag long ago sold away it’s journalistic integrity and is now most likely getting its marching orders from the likes of George Soros and moveon.org. I seriously wish New Yorkers would wake up and see what is really happening with the NYT, then cancel their subscriptions en masse and not even bother to use the paper to line the bottom of their bird cages. The Grey Lady died a long time ago. What is left of her now is nothing but a rotting husk.
pilamaye on February 28, 2008 at 11:03 AM
You do realize that you’re talking about the New York Times, right?
jdawg on February 28, 2008 at 11:05 AM
Ok, sent a tip to Hot Air on this … but…
Obama was born to an American Mother, and a “Kenyan” father in Hawaii in 1961… problem is that Kenya was not a country until 1963… it was a British territory.
Under British law, anyone born of a British Father, was a British citizen.
Therefore, unless Obama has specificly filed paperwork renouncing his British Citizenship, HE IS A DUAL CITIZEN!
Now, before people go ballistic about those born prior to the rebvolution, remember, we didn’t acknowledge dual citizenship back then… no one did…
Interesting that Times missed this, but hit McCain for nothing…
Romeo13 on February 28, 2008 at 11:07 AM
Unfortunately, I wouldn’t put it past the DNC to pursue this angle to try to grab the Presidency.
After Florida 2000 and all the “spilled hot coffee in my lap”, “million dollar lost dry cleaning”, and criminals suing victims cases that are considered on a daily basis in this country — I wouldn’t doubt that the DNC has a crack team of ambulance chasers digging into the question.
rockhead on February 28, 2008 at 11:08 AM
By going public with something like this, Triceratops just gives the story more credibility than it should recieve.
highhopes on February 28, 2008 at 10:41 AM
Remember the authors. THE NEW YORK TIMES! Maverick picked up six to nine percentage points in every presidential poll except for, you guessed it, THE NEW YORK TIMES! I’d keep pouring salt into that wound until I saw Editor Bill Keller on top of the Times building raising a white flag or until bankrupcy, whichever came first.
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 28, 2008 at 11:09 AM
They’re really scraping the bottom of the barrel on this one. If anyone is born on a US military base they are technically on US soil and should be considered “natural-born”.
My aunt and uncle had two sons born in Labrador and one born in Japan. They were all born on military bases and have all the rights and privileges of any other US citizen.
They required no special paperwork and were just added to her passport.
Ole John Dean is a bit afraid of McCain methinks, and I’m not a McCain person first. My choice was Fred but he fizzled faster than an alka-seltzer.
Glad registration was opened here again as I missed the window the other day.
Jeanette on February 28, 2008 at 11:11 AM
I am no fan of John McCain, and I really don’t want that back-stabber to be president. But this has got to be the dumbest thing ever…
urbancenturion on February 28, 2008 at 11:14 AM
Somehow, I get the feeling the NY Times would be writing all sorts of stories about how we need to re-think the requirement that a presidential candidate be born on U.S. soil, if Obama were a foreign born and “undocumented” candidate for U.S. President.
Rick on February 28, 2008 at 11:15 AM
Howard Dean, PLEASE DO THIS!
ConservativePartyNow on February 28, 2008 at 11:15 AM
This is actually the death of the slimes by a thousand cuts. They have less credibility than the enquirer.
dogsoldier on February 28, 2008 at 11:17 AM
Get used to this. The NYT has had since the 2000 primary to dig up as much dirt on him as they can, and you should expect a slime story every few days from now until November. The question is, will the stories yet to come have any credibility? So far, the first two attempts to derail him have the appearance of Yosemite Sam trying to blast Bugs Bunny, not noticing his shotgun barrel bent back towards his own face…
Think_b4_speaking on February 28, 2008 at 11:18 AM
dogsoldier on February 28, 2008 at 11:17 AM
Smartest guy in the room.
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 28, 2008 at 11:20 AM
The Constitution, which McCain hates more than conservatives but less than the NYT, is pretty clear on this.
McCain is safe because he was a citizen at the time the Constitution was adopted. Stupid NYT!
Valiant on February 28, 2008 at 11:23 AM
Second!
funky chicken on February 28, 2008 at 11:27 AM
This is much ado about nothing, Ed.
While it is certainly clear that the NYT attempted to smear Sen. McCain with the lobbyist story, this is a topic of legitimate historical and legal interest. It is a stretch to argue, just reading the article, that it is an attempt to “derail John McCain’s campaign.”
And while it raises a number of side issues (like the question whether ‘anchor babies’ can be prohibited without a Constitutional Amendment), no one cited in the article seriously questions Sen. McCain’s qualification for the Presidency under the ‘natural born’ clause.
Move on, folks. There will be plenty of opportunities for the NYT and MSM to trash Republicans, but this isn’t one of them.
MrLynn on February 28, 2008 at 11:28 AM
for the thousand and oneth thime: This sh!t is starting to get funny.
james hooker on February 28, 2008 at 11:29 AM
Keep it up, NYT. One week ago when they ran the story, NYT’s stock sold for more than $21 per share. Right now it is selling for $17.90.
Drew W. on February 28, 2008 at 11:29 AM
That really doesn’t matter. What matters is that under US law Obama is a (natural-born) US citizen. The Constitution doesn’t care if another country considers him its own citizen. And that’s a good thing, otherwise Iran could grant citizenship to a candidate they don’t like, thereby making him ineligible for the US Presidency.
factoid on February 28, 2008 at 11:30 AM
Can NYT really be this dumb? Are we sure that someone (FNN) isn’t pumping Stupid gas into the duct work? I realize that you can find cases of stupid every where you look, but not in these concentrated quantities!
Texhoss on February 28, 2008 at 11:32 AM
Ruh Roh…
If Obama ever had a passport from EITHER of his fathers, he MAY have lost his citizenship… and therefore be ineligable for the US Presidency.
Romeo13 on February 28, 2008 at 11:32 AM
I don’t want to vote for McCain, but will probably do it as a vote against Hillary or Obama.
This kind of liberal stupidity by the NYT is exhibit A of why such an unappetizing course of action is necessary.
Endorse the guy, then question if he’s eligible for the office? That’s an educated journalistic force the NYT has, all right.
cs89 on February 28, 2008 at 11:35 AM
John McCain is a real conservative, he’s just not a… oh, wait… no he isn’t!
db on February 28, 2008 at 11:36 AM
Actualy, no. It used to be the the US did not acknowledge dual citizenship. This was something that was put in place by the courts over the years, and has never been Constitutionaly tested.
Looks like if Obama ever had a British Passport… he’s a british citizen, and the waters then become very muddy.
Its all untested law at this level.
Romeo13 on February 28, 2008 at 11:37 AM
He has always been an American citizen; he has never been a Panamanian, nor a citizen of any other country at any time in his entire life. How can he be a foreigner?
I can hardly wait until the “natural born” gets into the issues of C-Section births, in vitro fertilization, and heaven knows how many other perversions of the word “natural” that can be dreamt up.
Paaughhhh!
ss396 on February 28, 2008 at 11:37 AM
He was born on a military base. “Natural born” means what it says. Natural: “having a real or physical existence” and “growing spontaneously, without being planted or tended by human hand.” A military base of the United States IS United States territory, therefore there is a real and physical existence within the United States and no artificial change would take place to be an American citizen. If it were any other way: ANY American serving country would become unable to sire an American and that would make Service Members less than citizens. End of argument. Now the NYTimes can go back to finding any pathetic tool they can to serve their masters.
http://www.countryaboveself.com
ilitigant on February 28, 2008 at 11:38 AM
New York Times still mad that they screwed up the last story..
Chakra Hammer on February 28, 2008 at 11:40 AM
NY Times Keep digging that hole to oblivion. >:}
Chakra Hammer on February 28, 2008 at 11:41 AM
This statement is factually incorrect, the first string of PotUS were born in England. There are provisions within the Constitution to deal with those cases however, a sort of grandfather clause. However, since that time, the case has always been born on native soil.
The clause is interesting in a couple of cases; a citizen born on an US embassy or military base located within another country, a citizen born on a US territory that subsequently becomes a state (Hawaii or Alaska most recently), or a citizen born in a state that had ceded from the US and then readmitted into the US (during the Civil War). There probably needs to be a case brought before the SCotUS in order to define “natural-born citizen” with more granularity.
Geministorm on February 28, 2008 at 11:41 AM
And I might add…
Unless he has specificly given up his British Citizenship… he IS a Dual Citizen under the law, both US, and British…
But I for one welcome our new British Overlord….
Romeo13 on February 28, 2008 at 11:42 AM
That’s kind of a remote scenario for a guy who has lived in this country all his adult life and has been a US Senator and before that an Illinois legislator for the past dozen or so years, don’t you think?
factoid on February 28, 2008 at 11:45 AM
Clarification: The British Colonies are considered England and British territory prior to the DoC and formation of an independent state. Washington, Adams and Jefferson were all born (obviously) prior to the DoC, and we thus English citizens and born on English territories (British colonies).
Geministorm on February 28, 2008 at 11:45 AM
Thanks litigant. Could you go share that over at freerepublic.com as well? There’s quite a few nuts over there who can’t understand it.
funky chicken on February 28, 2008 at 11:46 AM
funny how everyone leaves out the second part of that requirement…
“and subject to the jurisdiciton thereof”… which is the really interesting question as far as illegal immigrants go…
Romeo13 on February 28, 2008 at 11:47 AM
Van Buren may have been the first “natural-born citizen” by our current interpretation.
Geministorm on February 28, 2008 at 11:47 AM
Obama was born in Hawaii in 1961. Two years earlier and we could have had another interesting topic of discussion on this matter…
Geministorm on February 28, 2008 at 11:51 AM
Okay… the New York Times has gone too far.
I am, if for no other reason than because I hate the NYT, going to vote for McCain for President.
I can find no solid reasons for supportin McCain, Clinton, or Obama, but the NYT has finally given me something to at least vote against.
Thanks, NYT, for helping me make my decision.
Lawrence on February 28, 2008 at 11:52 AM
Not really… just one of those things that no one, up till now, cared enough to check.
There is NO requirement for a Senator to be US born… and I doubt anyone has ever bothered to look into it.
Romeo13 on February 28, 2008 at 11:54 AM
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